Debt pissing contest

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What is your debt (estimated or actual) upon graduation?

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TeddyMeddy said:
I guess the upside is, i dunno, being part of an artificially scarce profession that has life-giving powers to do complex procedures or prescription powers that are pretty much inescapable costs for pretty much anyone? Probably the best kind of educational debt to have if you have it.
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TeddyMeddy said:
This is a pissing contest, not a support group.
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If you weren't looking for support, then I don't really get what your purpose was. It's cynical bullshi*.

I guess I was supposed to acknowledge your intellectual greatness for *****ing on my future profession?

Because that's not gonna happen
 
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TeddyMeddy said:
I guess the upside is, i dunno, being part of an artificially scarce profession that has life-giving powers to do complex procedures or prescription powers that are pretty much inescapable costs for pretty much anyone? Probably the best kind of educational debt to have if you have it.
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These seem to imply that physicians are worth less than they're compensated to me. They also seem to imply that prescription powers are too tightly regulated. Both would seem to undermine the value of a physician. If that was not your intent, I apologize for calling you out on it. I've probably been spending too much time on here.

It's been a crappy week, and it's entirely possible I'm taking it out on you. Regardless, this isn't worth the time it takes to type it.
 
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Meh.meh said:
These seem to imply that physicians are worth less than they're compensated to me. They also seem to imply that prescription powers are too tightly regulated. Both would seem to undermine the value of a physician. If that was not your intent, I apologize for calling you out on it. I've probably been spending too much time on here.

It's been a crappy week, and it's entirely possible I'm taking it out on you. Regardless, this isn't worth the time it takes to type it.
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Agreed, this has in fact been a crap week.
 
graviton said:
Ah medical school, a place where having a 0 dollar balance qualifies you as rich.

gallery_37445_31349_21163655484bb26a8d7aa3f.png

(zero dollar crew checking in)
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you win the internet. ****in love archer

+1
 
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Dentist here but this thread caught my eye. As many of you know dental school tuition keeps climbing, while dental associates salary keeps staying flat (granted though a new dentist should earn a minimal amount before proving himself/herself)

My question to you is did you ever talk to a baby boomer physician for financial advice on tackling loans and the response you get is "as long as you do what you love, the money will come." That part cracks me up all the time.


note I enjoy dentistry and sometimes wished there were more patients, because I way too much free time on my hands staring at a desert but sometimes I question if I had the best financial move, not the best career move.
 
jeffk805dent said:
Dentist here but this thread caught my eye. As many of you know dental school tuition keeps climbing, while dental associates salary keeps staying flat (granted though a new dentist should earn a minimal amount before proving himself/herself)

My question to you is did you ever talk to a baby boomer physician for financial advice on tackling loans and the response you get is "as long as you do what you love, the money will come." That part cracks me up all the time.


note I enjoy dentistry and sometimes wished there were more patients, because I way too much free time on my hands staring at a desert but sometimes I question if I had the best financial move, not the best career move.
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Yeah that phrase is completely ignorant and out of touch with modern times.
 
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W19 said:
It's a phrase that has been echo here multiple time as well by residents/students and even new attendings...
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Doesn't make it less ignorant.
 
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xiwang said:
It's also possible to graduate from a Texas medical school with around $100k in debt or less, which I am extremely thankful for.
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Tuition only or total COA?
 
W19 said:
It's a phrase that has been echo here multiple time as well by residents/students and even new attendings...
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Bc you'll be utterly miserable doing what you hate, since it will be a while before you get an attending paycheck.
 
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jeffk805dent said:
Dentist here but this thread caught my eye. As many of you know dental school tuition keeps climbing, while dental associates salary keeps staying flat (granted though a new dentist should earn a minimal amount before proving himself/herself)

My question to you is did you ever talk to a baby boomer physician for financial advice on tackling loans and the response you get is "as long as you do what you love, the money will come." That part cracks me up all the time.


note I enjoy dentistry and sometimes wished there were more patients, because I way too much free time on my hands staring at a desert but sometimes I question if I had the best financial move, not the best career move.
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yeah and in the same vein, I don't understand how those people also say Y2k is the worst generation ever. it's not my generation that bankrupted social security or medicare. I think baby boomers see Y2K as a threat because Y2k did to baby boomers what baby boomers did to WW2 vets
 
As someone looking at around 340k loans...any one have more insight on what loan repayment options or loan forgiveness programs exist to pay all this back? At this point primary care doesn't seem realistic for people with this much debt.
 
DermViser said:
Bc you'll be utterly miserable doing what you hate, since it will be a while before you get an attending paycheck.
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I like medicine, but at the same time I am not in the camp of: 'medicine is so awesome dude'. That 7+ years will suck bad!
 
xiwang said:
Total COA. Tuition at my school is about $16-17k per year, and tuition at all of the other public Texas med schools is in the same range.
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tuition at my texas med school is about the same (about $2k less) and for those that file financial aid on time, it comes with an annual texas grant of about $6K). This was my driving force in choosing to stay in school in Texas. Very lucky indeed.
 
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cher25 said:
tuition at my texas med school is about the same (about $2k less) and for those that file financial aid on time, it comes with an annual texas grant of about $6K). This was my driving force in choosing to stay in school in Texas. Very lucky indeed.
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wait so you're paying 8K a year + living expenses? that's freaking awesome
 
PL198 said:
wait so you're paying 8K a year + living expenses? that's freaking awesome
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yeah, it's really nice. not saying this to be boasting or anything. But it's really really nice.
 
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Dr Dazzle said:
As someone looking at around 340k loans...any one have more insight on what loan repayment options or loan forgiveness programs exist to pay all this back? At this point primary care doesn't seem realistic for people with this much debt.
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Perhaps investments? Or a side business. Earn some money first, then see what you can do. I think about it all the time.
 
Dr Dazzle said:
As someone looking at around 340k loans...any one have more insight on what loan repayment options or loan forgiveness programs exist to pay all this back? At this point primary care doesn't seem realistic for people with this much debt.
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do IBR or PAYE and hope the government doesnt change anything that is detrimental to your financial savings for the tax bomb.

move to Nevada, Washington, Texas, South Dakota or any state with no income to save a couple extra

http://www.nelnet.com/Pages/IBRCalculator.aspx?blockid=98,120,122,119,134
 
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W19 said:
Every state should be like Texas and government should subsidize these private med schools as well.;)
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I believe the private med school in Texas is also partly subsidized by the state as well.
 
on the whole I feel TX is overrated (just my opinion, dont get angry on me Texans) but they do know how to finance well. I'm from CA (hence my area code) but moved to AZ bc I was fed up with all the money spending to irrelevant stuff and politics.

I think the Baylor and San Antonio dental schools are among the cheapest in the US for dental schools. Heck I think the OOS for these schools is still cheaper than UCLA/UCSF in-state, even if you were living in the cheapest studio possible for the UCs.
 
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DermViser said:
If you go here: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2015, total tuition and fees in schools there is about 17-18 K including health insurance.
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yeah, that's correct if you include health insurance. But for those of us who file financial aid early, we also get an annual texas public education grant of $6K. Even without the grant, tuition and fees was definitely more reasonable than some of the out of state med schools I was accepted into.
 
cher25 said:
yeah, that's correct if you include health insurance. But for those of us who file financial aid early, we also get an annual texas public education grant of $6K. Even without the grant, tuition and fees was definitely more reasonable than some of the out of state med schools I was accepted into.
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I agree with you. I was just giving him the actual numerical data in terms of tuition & fees numbers since AAMC has been keeping track of them since 1996.
 
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$430k anticipated at graduation. Private undergrad, private grad school, private medschool.
My plans:
1. IBR for 25 years
2. Hire financial advisor to figure it out
3. Moonlighting if allowed
4. IBR + 10% of income at the principle
5. Die = all loans forgiven
 
Mmedran said:
$430k anticipated at graduation. Private undergrad, private grad school, private medschool.
My plans:
1. IBR for 25 years
2. Hire financial advisor to figure it out
3. Moonlighting if allowed
4. IBR + 10% of income at the principle
5. Die = all loans forgiven
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brah you better make bank or you're f*cked
 
Mmedran said:
$430k anticipated at graduation. Private undergrad, private grad school, private medschool.
My plans:
1. IBR for 25 years
2. Hire financial advisor to figure it out
3. Moonlighting if allowed
4. IBR + 10% of income at the principle
5. Die = all loans forgiven
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People need to stop acting like moonlighting is a meaningful option.

I am in one of the most moonlight heavy fields, and in a program with a 2 yr research option where you have the opportunity to moonlight a bunch during the research years.

Moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus on your paycheck, at best. It's not an avenue for paying off your loans during residency
 
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Mmedran said:
$430k anticipated at graduation. Private undergrad, private grad school, private medschool.
My plans:
1. IBR for 25 years
2. Hire financial advisor to figure it out
3. Moonlighting if allowed
4. IBR + 10% of income at the principle
5. Die = all loans forgiven
Click to expand...

for #5, I hope you mean death when you are terminally ill due to old age, though I would be curious to know if the government would take your social security savings when they know you are trying to pull a fast one.
 
not to mention there's something unethical about taking out loans with the expectation to not pay them off.
 
I think a lot of people made the mistake of going to private undergrad (and probably private med school, but that can often be less of a choice). Really, no point in wasting money for undergrad when it isn't your terminal degree.
 
PL198 said:
not to mention there's something unethical about taking out loans with the expectation to not pay them off.
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Is it really though? The generous repayment and forgiveness plans existed up front when the loan was taken. Is it unethical to go into public medical service at the VA, taking a pay cut to serve America's veterans, expecting your loans to be forgiven as promised?
 
sazerac said:
Is it really though? The generous repayment and forgiveness plans existed up front when the loan was taken. Is it unethical to go into public medical service at the VA, taking a pay cut to serve America's veterans, expecting your loans to be forgiven as promised?
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That wasn't the situation I was remarking on.
 
PL198 said:
That wasn't the situation I was remarking on.
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So it isn't always unethical to take loans with the intention to not pay them off. I'm not trying being a pedant here. I really am curious why it is unethical to play by the rules and get loans forgiven instead of paid off, when the rules are clearly understood by both lender and borrower beforehand.

There is so little about student loans that can even be called "loans" anymore (no collateral, payments not tied to principle or interest rates, multiple forgiveness options, non-capitalization of interest, etc), so not paying them off seems to me to be less of a loophole and more of a legitimate and logical strategy. Especially since the lender and the forgiver are the same entity.

I think it is more unethical to call these financial instruments "loans".
 
sazerac said:
So it isn't always unethical to take loans with the intention to not pay them off. I'm not trying being a pedant here. I really am curious why it is unethical to play by the rules and get loans forgiven instead of paid off, when the rules are clearly understood by both lender and borrower beforehand.

There is so little about student loans that can even be called "loans" anymore (no collateral, payments not tied to principle or interest rates, multiple forgiveness options, non-capitalization of interest, etc), so not paying them off seems to me to be less of a loophole and more of a legitimate and logical strategy. Especially since the lender and the forgiver are the same entity.

I think it is more unethical to call these financial instruments "loans".
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No it is. You're paying them off by utilizing government programs when you use PSLF/PAYE. I'm saying it's wrong to take loans that will stay with you until death. Also they're definitely loans.... everything you said after "loans" was just complete BS trying to justify getting out of them, when that isn't even my argument.

PSLF/PAYE isn't unethical, but I would personally call it bad karma seeing as you're relying on government programs with no incentive to exist to bail you out. However if you didn't take part in these and just said " screw it, just gonna let them wrack up till I die" that is unethical.
 
PL198 said:
No it is. You're paying them off by utilizing government programs when you use PSLF/PAYE. I'm saying it's wrong to take loans that will stay with you until death. Also they're definitely loans.... everything you said after "loans" was just complete BS trying to justify getting out of them, when that isn't even my argument.

PSLF/PAYE isn't unethical, but I would personally call it bad karma seeing as you're relying on government programs with no incentive to exist to bail you out. However if you didn't take part in these and just said " screw it, just gonna let them wrack up till I die" that is unethical.
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agree with what you said here but is it ethical for medical schools to put students in a false sense of security when they'll be in for a rude awakening. I cant tell how many times my dental professors say "dont do it for the money" despite my private tuition paying for a large part of their hefty salary. Its easy for them to say that when they're on a good payroll. I am convinced many of them struggled in private practice and are working in education field to make themselves better
 
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I've never heard someone say " don't worry about the money" that I thought had an honest grip on reality. You don't have to make it your chief priority, but anyone that would ignore it is a complete fool in my eyes, and I've heard " don't worry about the money" so many times already it makes me sick
 
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PL198 said:
not to mention there's something unethical about taking out loans with the expectation to not pay them off.
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No more unethical than the majority of groups/people/companies loaning money they know most likely will never be paid back.
 
PL198 said:
I've never heard someone say " don't worry about the money" that I thought had an honest grip on reality. You don't have to make it your chief priority, but anyone that would ignore it is a complete fool in my eyes, and I've heard " don't worry about the money" so many times already it makes me sick
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They do have an honest grip on reality. THEIR reality when they were going thru medical education. Perfect example here:

http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/autumn2007/features/feature/51534/
Thomas P. Duffy, M.D., professor of medicine (hematology) at Yale, readily acknowledges that heavy debt handicaps today’s graduating medical students. Still, he criticizes their financial aspirations. “Some medical students’ expectations [are] now to achieve upper-class lives shortly after graduation from medical school. The amounts of money that can be made in dermatology and plastic surgery are a temptation that many people cannot resist,” he says. “The need for luxury is more urgent in the current generation than it was in mine.” --- Typical and expected below-the-belt jab at Dermatology since it's the perfect punching bad for med school educators of course.

When did he graduate from medical school? 1962 from Johns Hopkins -- this was before Medicare started, before fee-for-service reimbursement, has lifetime certification and isn't participating in maintenance of certification, and he's a Hematologist. I guarantee you he's living quite well sipping cognac and smoking cigars. And yet he is upset that students are debt wary and acting accordingly. Do you think even once he has tried to get Yale to charge less tuition? Probably not. This is the world they are living in.
 
jw3600 said:
No more unethical than the majority of groups/people/companies loaning money they know most likely will never be paid back.
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they were forced into it by legislation. not to mention it's different when you're the one giving the money vs receiving...
 
jw3600 said:
No more unethical than the majority of groups/people/companies loaning money they know most likely will never be paid back.
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Didn't the Community Reinvestment Act force banks to make home loans to people who couldn't afford those houses based on their credit score? And wouldn't you know it - he's allowing it to happen again even after acknowledging what also contributed to it in the first place: http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...b4370c-9aef-11e2-a941-a19bce7af755_story.html
 
DermViser said:
They do have an honest grip on reality. THEIR reality when they were going thru medical education. Perfect example here:

http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/autumn2007/features/feature/51534/
Thomas P. Duffy, M.D., professor of medicine (hematology) at Yale, readily acknowledges that heavy debt handicaps today’s graduating medical students. Still, he criticizes their financial aspirations. “Some medical students’ expectations [are] now to achieve upper-class lives shortly after graduation from medical school. The amounts of money that can be made in dermatology and plastic surgery are a temptation that many people cannot resist,” he says. “The need for luxury is more urgent in the current generation than it was in mine.” --- Typical and expected below-the-belt jab at Dermatology since it's the perfect punching bad for med school educators of course.

When did he graduate from medical school? 1962 from Johns Hopkins -- this was before Medicare started, before fee-for-service reimbursement, has lifetime certification and isn't participating in maintenance of certification, and he's a Hematologist. I guarantee you he's living quite well sipping cognac and smoking cigars. And yet he is upset that students are debt wary and acting accordingly. Do you think even once he has tried to get Yale to charge less tuition? Probably not. This is the world they are living in.
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I thought it was only the French people who like talking about COGNAC. You too Americans!
 
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