Despise for “midlevels” on this forum

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Older reference, but a very big deal when I was in Grad school:


Be sure to check out the rebuttal articles for the full picture. Also- do a literature search for more recent research.

Anecdotally- I've worked with several students from the local big cohort wicked expensive psyd mill that I didn't and wouldn't trust to implement a manual iced treatment. I've also worked with some that I would. I've experienced much less variability in ability with students from small cohorts, mentor model clinical, counseling, and ed psych phd programs.

As to respect for mid-levels, I've recently literally put my money where my mouth is. My daughter, with some encouragement and guidance from me, just began an msw program as it is a) in line with her career goals, and b) offers good training in empirically validated treatment approaches. As others have alluded to,,there just aren't enough doctoral programs to meet demntiaand for therapists.

ETA- as for "despising" anyone, I despise incompetent hacks of any degree or credential who- for whatever reason- don't implement the most effective strategies for easing their clients' suffering or promoting their optimal health.

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Hello, I’m probably one of the outspoken frequent flyer midlevel haters in this forum you’re referring to. Please note I’m a midlevel myself (LPC/LMHC). I did not enjoy my education and I put my money where I mouth is by going back to get a doctorate (albeit not a PhD).

Here are my general gripes:

1. Masters level education is not very standardized. Yes I know CACREP, COAMFTE, and CSWE exist, but the implementation of the (low) standards varies greatly. In my program you couldn’t do prac/internship in private practice settings to force you to get HLOC experience. My colleague who went to a well known MFT program in California did all of her clinical at a private practice with a not-so-legit LMFT supervisor who barely supervised her.

2. Licensing is not standardized across states. Heck, we can barely decide what to call ourselves, leading to this dumb alphabet soup of LPC/LPCC/LMHC/LCPC. In Massachusetts you needed 960 direct hours to get fully licensed. In Texas I needed 1500. It’s a mess.

3. In general (key word), masters level programs are easier to get in and thus the average caliber of individual that self selects for a masters program vs. a research-based doctoral program is significantly lower. Many of my classmates struggled through our already fluffy stats and research design courses. (I tested out and did the doctoral level courses in the psych department instead)

4. The aforementioned situations leads to masters therapists not wanting to conduct, consume, assess, or disseminate research. And definitely not to the level of our doctorally trained peers.

5. Most masters level therapists want to get in, get out, and (definitely generalizing here) start their private practice ASAP. (This makes sense; if they didn’t want to do this, they would have gone the doctoral route…) I’m not bashing private practice, but I am bashing clinicians who want to run before they can walk. As a newbie therapist with your measly 900 hours of experience, you want to start holding people’s lives in your hands with barely any oversight or guidance?! Heck, let’s just let med students practice independently without guidance after graduating too, because that’s the equivalent. Don’t talk to me about required pre-license “supervision”, which is largely a financial agreement and is also poorly implemented in most situations.

6. To be a competent masters clinician, you *need* to spend lots of time on extra training that was not wrapped up in your graduate program and isn’t even made explicit to you at any time. I’ve been working with OCD patients since 2015 and it wasn’t until 2022 that I felt comfortable saying it was one of my “specialties”. Obviously this is true of all clinicians, but given the lack of education and supervised training in our education, the masters trained ones have a much steeper hill to climb and - dangerously - they often don’t know and/or care the hill is there.

7. Don’t get me started on the pseudoscience. I have had many colleagues boast they specifically went the masters program route because they are angry that doctoral programs don’t provide training or allowance for “alternative therapies”. Cue the reiki, EMDR, crystals, tarot readings, neurofeedback, “collage your feelings”, you name it.

Before going to med school, I did UR for a very large national behavioral health company, which meant I was reading/auditing every single session note and intervention that my masters-trained colleagues were conducting. I’ve worked with a total of ~50 facilities, each staffing 2-5 therapists each, across at least 20 states (too lazy to count). And let me tell you… it was BAD. Very poor case conceptualization. Very poor treatment planning. Also very poor outcomes.

I’m not just spewing out vitriol because I think it’s fun. I’ve seen directly how poor education and poor training hurts patients on a very large scale. I had to take this poor treatment planning and somehow spin it into gold for the payors.

Yes there will be superstar masters clinicians, and I know some myself. But by and large 80% are mediocre. They do not provide adequate quality for the huge fees they think they are entitled to charge (one of my colleagues, still under associate license, lamented that she was “only” able to charge $150/hr cash rate). They cannot and do not want to delve into research. They have poor understanding of how to get further training or do not comprehend they need further training.

I do not blame the individuals one bit. They don’t know what they don’t know. I do blame the bargain bin low quality of 80% of these masters degree programs for not properly training clinicians.

Please note there are obviously good and bad eggs everywhere. But for masters programs it’s probably a 20/80 split whereas for PsyD’s we’re closer to 60/40 and PhDs we’re closer to 80/20.

Do I have research to back any of this up? No, but I don’t think my concerns should be swept under the rug just because of it. I’d love to pull data from my company to prove it (because trust me, the data will prove it) but they’d probably sue me to oblivion.
 
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Hello, I’m probably one of the outspoken frequent flyer midlevel haters in this forum you’re referring to. Please note I’m a midlevel myself (LPC/LMHC). I did not enjoy my education and I put my money where I mouth is by going back to get a doctorate (albeit not a PhD).

Here are my general gripes:

1. Masters level education is not very standardized. Yes I know CACREP, COAMFTE, and CSWE exist, but the implementation of the (low) standards varies greatly. In my program you couldn’t do prac/internship in private practice settings to force you to get HLOC experience. My colleague who went to a well known MFT program in California did all of her clinical at a private practice with a not-so-legit LMFT supervisor who barely supervised her.

2. Licensing is not standardized across states. Heck, we can barely decide what to call ourselves, leading to this dumb alphabet soup of LPC/LPCC/LMHC/LCPC. In Massachusetts you needed 960 direct hours to get fully licensed. In Texas I needed 1500. It’s a mess.

3. In general (key word), masters level programs are easier to get in and thus the average caliber of individual that self selects for a masters program vs. a research-based doctoral program is significantly lower. Many of my classmates struggled through our already fluffy stats and research design courses. (I tested out and did the doctoral level courses in the psych department instead)

4. The aforementioned situations leads to masters therapists not wanting to conduct, consume, assess, or disseminate research. And definitely not to the level of our doctorally trained peers.

5. Most masters level therapists want to get in, get out, and (definitely generalizing here) start their private practice ASAP. (This makes sense; if they didn’t want to do this, they would have gone the doctoral route…) I’m not bashing private practice, but I am bashing clinicians who want to run before they can walk. As a newbie therapist with your measly 900 hours of experience, you want to start holding people’s lives in your hands with barely any oversight or guidance?! Heck, let’s just let med students practice independently without guidance after graduating too, because that’s the equivalent. Don’t talk to me about required pre-license “supervision”, which is largely a financial agreement and is also poorly implemented in most situations.

6. To be a competent masters clinician, you *need* to spend lots of time on extra training that was not wrapped up in your graduate program and isn’t even made explicit to you at any time. I’ve been working with OCD patients since 2015 and it wasn’t until 2022 that I felt comfortable saying it was one of my “specialties”. Obviously this is true of all clinicians, but given the lack of education and supervised training in our education, the masters trained ones have a much steeper hill to climb and - dangerously - they often don’t know and/or care the hill is there.

7. Don’t get me started on the pseudoscience. I have had many colleagues boast they specifically went the masters program route because they are angry that doctoral programs don’t provide training or allowance for “alternative therapies”. Cue the reiki, EMDR, crystals, tarot readings, neurofeedback, “collage your feelings”, you name it.

Before going to med school, I did UR for a very large national behavioral health company, which meant I was reading/auditing every single session note and intervention that my masters-trained colleagues were conducting. I’ve worked with a total of ~50 facilities, each staffing 2-5 therapists each, across at least 20 states (too lazy to count). And let me tell you… it was BAD. Very poor case conceptualization. Very poor treatment planning. Also very poor outcomes.

I’m not just spewing out vitriol because I think it’s fun. I’ve seen directly how poor education and poor training hurts patients on a very large scale. I had to take this poor treatment planning and somehow spin it into gold for the payors.

Yes there will be superstar masters clinicians, and I know some myself. But by and large 80% are mediocre. They do not provide adequate quality for the huge fees they think they are entitled to charge (one of my colleagues, still under associate license, lamented that she was “only” able to charge $150/hr cash rate). They cannot and do not want to delve into research. They have poor understanding of how to get further training or do not comprehend they need further training.

I do not blame the individuals one bit. They don’t know what they don’t know. I do blame the bargain bin low quality of 80% of these masters degree programs for not properly training clinicians.

Please note there are obviously good and bad eggs everywhere. But for masters programs it’s probably a 20/80 split whereas for PsyD’s we’re closer to 60/40 and PhDs we’re closer to 80/20.

Do I have research to back any of this up? No, but I don’t think my concerns should be swept under the rug just because of it. I’d love to pull data from my company to prove it (because trust me, the data will prove it) but they’d probably sue me to oblivion.
This was very thorough. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Unlike some on here, I have no problem with anecdotal evidence when it comes with this level of context and background.
 
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The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between the two provider types.

The alternative hypothesis is that there is a difference between the two types, favoring fully-funded doctoral-level practitioners over midlevels (an assertion postulated or alluded to on this forum by posters in various threads that preceded and inspired my OP). It seems like a semantics game.

If there are no good data to reject the null hypothesis then that’s fine: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and so on. Maybe it is quite unfair and unreasonable to start a thread asking for empirical evidence and I can see Sanman’s point about that sort of posting being discouraged or annoying and problematic.

(I’ll just hangout until condescending comments are made in another thread about midlevels and their effectiveness as a whole relative to clinical psychologists, then I’ll pop back on, the onus will be on them—since it will be their assertion—and we can continue this same conversation then I guess.)
No, it’s not. You are the only one offering a hypothesis. It seems your hypothesis is that there is no difference.

You’re mixing the scientific method with specific types of statistical methods.
 
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Speaking of incompetent midlevels. SLP just reported an RBANS digit span in the 39th percentile as Severe impairment. 16th percentile on another sub test also reported as severe impairment. In an individual who struggled to finish high school. Man, I love getting paid a lot of money to sift through these garbage assessments.
 
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Speaking of incompetent midlevels. SLP just reported an RBANS digit span in the 39th percentile as Severe impairment. 16th percentile on another sub test also reported as severe impairment. In an individual who struggled to finish high school. Man, I love getting paid a lot of money to sift through these garbage assessments.
Do they mark it as severe impairment to justify their treatment plan?
 
No, it’s not. You are the only one offering a hypothesis. It seems your hypothesis is that there is no difference.

You’re mixing the scientific method with specific types of statistical methods.
Sure thing, you are correct.

Please see the end of my post:

“(I’ll just hangout until condescending comments are made in another thread about midlevels and their effectiveness as a whole relative to clinical psychologists, then I’ll pop back on, the onus will be on them—since it will be their assertion—and we can continue this same conversation then I guess.)”

Thanks to all the other folks for their thoughtful responses to the substantive issue at hand.
 
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Can I add SLPs to the list of midlevels that I hate? Would hate for them to miss out on the hate as OP put it.
 
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I do so enjoy reading the seemingly never-ending and specious diagnoses they just invent for funsies. They are very creative!
 
Speaking of incompetent midlevels. SLP just reported an RBANS digit span in the 39th percentile as Severe impairment. 16th percentile on another sub test also reported as severe impairment. In an individual who struggled to finish high school. Man, I love getting paid a lot of money to sift through these garbage assessments.
I'm just now seeing your inclusion of SLPs in this convo. My bad.

One of my mTBI referrals for next week was diagnosed by an SLP with adult onset ADHD and adult onset autism. I am really looking forward to this clinical interview Monday morning.
 
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I've never worked with SLPs before - is ADHD/ASD type diagnosis still within their scope of practice? :O
 
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I've never worked with SLPs before - is ADHD/ASD type diagnosis still within their scope of practice? :O
Ha! They collectively laugh at such restrictions like supposed scope of practice and evidence-based.

On a more serious note, adult onset ADHD is not a thing. At least not as currently conceptualized. We know this because we read research literature. And adult onset ASD? I've never even heard that suggested as a thing. The issue with this SLP is they did not even mention that these provided diagnoses, if we make the gigantic leap they are real, would be considered "adult onset." They just provided run-of-the-mill ADHD and ASD diagnoses to a 38-year-old. Such shoddy clinical and scientific reasoning offends me.
 
Ha! They collectively laugh at such restrictions like supposed scope of practice and evidence-based.

On a more serious note, adult onset ADHD is not a thing. At least not as currently conceptualized. We know this because we read research literature. And adult onset ASD? I've never even heard that suggested as a thing. The issue with this SLP is they did not even mention that these provided diagnoses, if we make the gigantic leap they are real, would be considered "adult onset." They just provided run-of-the-mill ADHD and ASD diagnoses to a 38-year-old. Such shoddy clinical and scientific reasoning offends me.
I completely missed the "adult onset" part of your original post (see, it's that masters-level education doing its work). Yikesss @ this SLP. To be fair, their training seems pretty low bar as well too, from what my physician friends tell me 🫢
 
Back during my master's program, one of my practicum sites was a post-acute TBI rehab facility. I worked fairly closely with the SLPs and OTs. Whenever we did our collaborative case meetings discussing testing results, the SLPs and OTs consistently had a weird understanding of percentiles. I remember one case where a patient had severely impaired motor functioning in their right hand due to a stroke, and after a few months of rehab the OTs mentioned the patient was "back in the 95th percentile" for grip strength. Needless to say I was begging OT and PT for their forearm exercises.

All the SLPs and OTs also believed they were qualified to conduct cognitive evaluations
 
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Back during my master's program, one of my practicum sites was a post-acute TBI rehab facility. I worked fairly closely with the SLPs and OTs. Whenever we did our collaborative case meetings discussing testing results, the SLPs and OTs consistently had a weird understanding of percentiles. I remember one case where a patient had severely impaired motor functioning in their right hand due to a stroke, and after a few months of rehab the OTs mentioned the patient was "back in the 95th percentile" for grip strength. Needless to say I was begging OT and PT for their forearm exercises.

All the SLPs and OTs also believed they were qualified to conduct cognitive evaluations

I have no idea what norm sets they use. I've compared their interpretations for things like Trails A/B to our most widely used norms (Heaton, MOA/ANS, etc) and they are vastly different. I would love to provide a lawyer with questions to ask of one of them were they ever to be deposed in a TBI case.
 
I have no idea what norm sets they use. I've compared their interpretations for things like Trails A/B to our most widely used norms (Heaton, MOA/ANS, etc) and they are vastly different. I would love to provide a lawyer with questions to ask of one of them were they ever to be deposed in a TBI case.

Ok, this is helpful because I keep getting records for my forensic evals with previous SLP involvement and I don’t know what norm world they are in.
 
Ok, this is helpful because I keep getting records for my forensic evals with previous SLP involvement and I don’t know what norm world they are in.

You're not alone, just call into question their methods compared to more well constructed norm sets. These people are clowns when it comes to TBI work.
 
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SLPs care not for this silly concept of "scope of practice!" Everything is within the scope of practice of an SLP!

When my father was in the hospital they kept sending SLPs to assess his cognitive function. Cognitive functioning was very relevant to his condition and not something to assess half heartedly. When we challenged the SLP on her expertise on this topic, she said, “I’m an expert on everything from the neck up!” 😳

I have a lot of respect for the SLPs who helped my son with his speech delay, but seriously stay in your lane!
 
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When we challenged the SLP on her expertise on this topic, she said, “I’m an expert on everything from the neck up!” 😳
Welp time to fire all the opthalmologists, neurologists, and ENTs; SLPs can do their job too! What a steal!
 
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When my father was in the hospital they kept sending SLPs to assess his cognitive function. Cognitive functioning was very relevant to his condition and not something to assess half heartedly. When we challenged the SLP on her expertise on this topic, she said, “I’m an expert on everything from the neck up!” 😳

I have a lot of respect for the SLPs who helped my son with his speech delay, but seriously stay in your lane!

I definitely see how a knowledge of disorders of speech articulation would qualify you to plan a resection for a glioblastoma.
 
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FWIW, the SLPs I work with in a solid PMR department at a major AMC often do quite good / useful / non-iatrogenic work - I think the strong collaboration between neuropsychology, medicine, and therapies (PT/OT/SLP) here helps with that (and definitely isn't the norm). The "vision therapists" in the community that some of our patients see are an entirely different story, though.

I like the 20/80 (midlevel) vs. 60/40 (PsyD) vs. 80/20 (PhD) split - I'll add that providers obviously aren't randomized to setting... I spent time at a pretty middle-of-the-road VA and was *shocked* by the caliber of work offered by the clinical PsyDs/PhDs in that department. LOTS of mention in our didactics about DID (and how "easy" it is to miss), internal family systems, and critical incident stress debriefing (without any mention of risk for iatrogenesis).

All that to say: There's room for disdain and frustration all around, but I generally agree with the split previously mentioned - FWIW, at that VA, the MH interventionists I was most impressed with were the few neuropsychologists who offered psychotherapy (all time-limited and evidence-based) and one particular MSW with a niche area of expertise / practice and solid clinical skills.
 
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