Did the internship situation get better than in the past for the international graduates of Australian med school?

[bluegreen0627]

I asked one of the agency coordinators if the internship situation in Australia became better than in the past for international/Canadian graduates of Australian med school. I was told that any Canadian grad of Australian med school who has wanted an internship in Australia has gotten one, even though it may not be offered in favourable location like downtown Sydney.

I’m aware that she can’t speak without bias since she works for the agency but her response seemed very different from what I found on the web. Frankly speaking, this sounded too good to be true so I searched for specific stats for international students but I am having hard time finding it. I wanted to hear how it is like in reality/your opinion. Thanks a lot.

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[BigPikachu]

Priority for employment will always be given to Australian medical school graduates with Australian citizenship. Although, as I understand it, the Commonwealth (Federal) Government is increasing the number of internship places for foreign graduates of Australian medical schools. But there is no gaurantee. Last time I checked a few years ago, there were about 100+ federally funded internship places for international graduates, and if there are often a handful of state & territory funded internship places for internship graduates leftover after the priority is given to the local graduates. Albeit, you'll have to accept the fact that it's most likely you'll be placed at the less popular hospitals located rurally; although, I've found that the learning at these hospitals are just as good.

 

[cdndoc2020]

Internship report for NSW:

https://www.heti.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/576767/annual-report-med-grad-allocation-2020-clinical-year.pdf

 

[kmf_51920]

I asked one of the agency coordinators if the internship situation in Australia became better than in the past for international/Canadian graduates of Australian med school. I was told that any Canadian grad of Australian med school who has wanted an internship in Australia has gotten one, even though it may not be offered in favourable location like downtown Sydney.

I’m aware that she can’t speak without bias since she works for the agency but her response seemed very different from what I found on the web. Frankly speaking, this sounded too good to be true so I searched for specific stats for international students but I am having hard time finding it. I wanted to hear how it is like in reality/your opinion. Thanks a lot.

I'll give you the simplified version.
The internship situation is getting worse and the class of 2024 will most likely not get a spot.

Spots available to you= number of spots offered - number of applicants
Number of internship positions in Aus is unlikely to change, let's get that out of the way first.
Number of applicants will increase and this is why: Australia opened many med schools in the past few years (most recently even 2018 and 2019 I believe, which graduate ~2023). Anecdotally, there has also been more international students staying behind (whether it's cuz they enjoy Aus or they can't match back to Cad/US). That means more people competing for the same number of spots.

obviously a lot of factors come into play (e.g. priority policy of the State you're in...etc). you might still get a position. but important to not see this as a safe back up

 

[kmf_51920]

I asked one of the agency coordinators if the internship situation in Australia became better than in the past for international/Canadian graduates of Australian med school. I was told that any Canadian grad of Australian med school who has wanted an internship in Australia has gotten one, even though it may not be offered in favourable location like downtown Sydney.

I’m aware that she can’t speak without bias since she works for the agency but her response seemed very different from what I found on the web. Frankly speaking, this sounded too good to be true so I searched for specific stats for international students but I am having hard time finding it. I wanted to hear how it is like in reality/your opinion. Thanks a lot.

The agency coord might not be wrong in saying that everyone wanted one got one. But that's irrelevant to you. this is 2019/2020 before new schools opened.

 

[jz1993]

The agency coord might not be wrong in saying that everyone wanted one got one. But that's irrelevant to you. this is 2019/2020 before new schools opened.

Name the new schools that opened in 2019 and 2020?

 

[Wolvvs]

Macquarie opened in 2018 right? So they haven't graduated their first class yet.

 

[Damson]

Australia opened many med schools

but this is a fairly safe back up. not only can we apply to our state's internships, we can also apply interstate. you're also forgetting JDTP (junior doctor training program).

aside Macquarie, can you tell us which medical school have opened since 2018?

 

[stereobasket]

Btw here are the stats on commencing interns (up to 2018), I don't think many people are aware that this info is freely published:

Health Workforce Data | Datasets

hwd.health.gov.au

https://hwd.health.gov.au/MET_Tables/2018/Table 3.2.pdf (2018 data)
Judging by the data, I think you can infer that international students haven't really been missing out on internships recently. The 100 extra govt sponsored spots have been quite underfilled, even at a high of 3569 graduates. However I'm curious about the 2019 data since ~3700 (highest to date) students graduated.

Also worth taking a look:

Student Statistics reports - Medical Deans Australia and New Zealand

The annual Student Statistics reports provide snapshot and trend information about commencement, enrolment and graduate medical student data across Australia…

medicaldeans.org.au

Looks like the student numbers are generally plateauing? 2020 had lower commencements than 2019 and 2017.

In my opinion WA and VIC are the two best states for internship chances. Both states have int'l graduates as having priority over interstate domestic applicants (with the exception of those who did high school in WA). Plus I believe they have the lowest percentage of int'l students, with WA having the lowest at around 6-7%. Don't think it's a coincidence there. But the downside is both of those schools do not have much support for North Americans.

 

[kmf_51920]

Macquarie opened in 2018 right? So they haven't graduated their first class yet.

Yes, that means by the time 2021 entering class graduates, their internship opportunities will be impacted by MQ grads.

Name the new schools that opened in 2019 and 2020?

not 200% sure but i think Charles Stuart Uni? (prob not new med school but just more spots?) but even then, it is unpredictable because of the possibility of new med schools opening Will the Federal Government's plan to increase rural doctor numbers work?

but this is a fairly safe back up. not only can we apply to our state's internships, we can also apply interstate. you're also forgetting JDTP (junior doctor training program).

aside Macquarie, can you tell us which medical school have opened since 2018?

Depends on what your definition of a safe back up is. imo, if one drops $400k+, a "safe" backup plan is one that has 100% chance. yours might be different. how high do the stakes (or how low the chances) have to be for you to consider something unsafe?

all the programs (in-state, interstate, JDTP) combined, how many "left over" spots are there? And keep in mind this is without taking the new graduating numbers in 2025 into account. I assume MQ domestic students get priority, but even if they don't, they're at least on the same priority group as intl students.

at least understand this: however hard it is for us right now (graduating in the next 2-3 years), it will be much harder for you (graduating 4-5 years). that's undisputed. take any chances if you want though... not trying to change anyone's decisions, just don't want anyone making the mistakes they wouldn't have had they been more well informed

 

[TheIndianHustler]

I think it’s important to understand the risk of going abroad. You are going to have a harder time no doubt and will probably end up in less desirable areas as for new schools Macquarie is the only newest one Charles Sturt uni however has increased its spots in conjunction with Western Sydney Univ as quoted below

“ From 2021, Western Sydney and Charles Sturt University will be delivering a Doctor of Medicine (MD) course together. The Joint Program in Medicine is a five-year undergraduate entry degree that qualifies you to be a medical intern in Australia and New Zealand.
Successful applicants study their degree either in the Greater Western Sydney region at Western’s Campbelltown campus or in the Central NSW region at the Charles Sturt University, Orange campus. “


however on a more positive note UNTIL NOW in QLD atleast from UQ specifically talking to former and current students and in their webinars all internationals have found internship spots and a lot in the city as well (20/57 I believe last yr). OzTREKK has this info on their site under “UQ summer series”.

As for NSW UNTIL NOW it’s the same case this is in the HETI report for NSW search it up. I think since NSW has 2 new increases Macquarie and Charles Sturt it might get harder for the graduating class of 2024 or 2025 but if you look at the reports you realize like @stereobasket @Hazle rightly mentioned the JDTP training pathway exists and until 2019 has been underutilized so maybe there won’t be a problem even with these increases.

If you look back on these forums I have for the last few years worth (just search internship chances). You notice a trend every year ppl “it’s getting harder new schools are opening“ or “they are taking more internationals you won’t get internship if you graduate in 2018 or 2019” ( go look you will find countless such examples from 2013-2015) but everyone has in NSW and QLD. May that change ofc it could but it hasn’t over many years!

Also CSU’s new program is 5 yrs so it will impact the graduating class of 2025 not ‘24 just an FYI.

 

[cdndoc2020]

I think it’s important to understand the risk of going abroad. You are going to have a harder time no doubt and will probably end up in less desirable areas as for new schools Macquarie is the only newest one Charles Sturt uni however has increased its spots in conjunction with Western Sydney Univ as quoted below

“ From 2021, Western Sydney and Charles Sturt University will be delivering a Doctor of Medicine (MD) course together. The Joint Program in Medicine is a five-year undergraduate entry degree that qualifies you to be a medical intern in Australia and New Zealand.
Successful applicants study their degree either in the Greater Western Sydney region at Western’s Campbelltown campus or in the Central NSW region at the Charles Sturt University, Orange campus. “


however on a more positive note UNTIL NOW in QLD atleast from UQ specifically talking to former and current students and in their webinars all internationals have found internship spots and a lot in the city as well (20/57 I believe last yr). OzTREKK has this info on their site under “UQ summer series”.

As for NSW UNTIL NOW it’s the same case this is in the HETI report for NSW search it up. I think since NSW has 2 new increases Macquarie and Charles Sturt it might get harder for the graduating class of 2024 or 2025 but if you look at the reports you realize like @stereobasket @Hazle rightly mentioned the JDTP training pathway exists and until 2019 has been underutilized so maybe there won’t be a problem even with these increases.

If you look back on these forums I have for the last few years worth (just search internship chances). You notice a trend every year ppl “it’s getting harder new schools are opening“ or “they are taking more internationals you won’t get internship if you graduate in 2018 or 2019” ( go look you will find countless such examples from 2013-2015) but everyone has in NSW and QLD. May that change ofc it could but it hasn’t over many years!

Also CSU’s new program is 5 yrs so it will impact the graduating class of 2025 not ‘24 just an FYI.

This same fear mongering happened exactly 4 years ago and it has started all over again. So 4 years later, most of us except for 2 Canadians that I know have yet to receive an offer yet from NSW. Having said that it' still too early as offers are still coming in once the Interstates have started declining their offer as you can hold only one offer. Few of my Canadians friends have also got in to Queensland from NSW. This year I thought could be little bit more challenging as most Internationals who want to come back may not have that choice due to COVID but so far it's still good from what I have been hearing. We still have the 115 positions (JDTP) that will open up soon from the Private health stream.

 

[Damson]

it will be much harder for you (graduating 4-5 years). that's undisputed.

This part is not substantiated with numbers to be hailed as undisputed fact.

 

[kmf_51920]

This part is not substantiated with numbers to be hailed as undisputed fact.

you need to do your own research, it's not my responsibility to provide evidence (again, it's your life and your decision).

but let's just say i'm wrong, you can't possibly be so naive to think that things are going to stay the same or get easier right? (esp not with covid).

 

[Damson]

you need to do your own research, it's not my responsibility to provide evidence (again, it's your life and your decision).

but let's just say i'm wrong, you can't possibly be so naive to think that things are going to stay the same or get easier right? (esp not with covid).

Hold up, I never said "things are going to stay the same".
Applicant numbers shift year to year, so allocation outcomes for c/o 2024 may differ from that of 2021. But without you presenting numbers demonstrating actual shortage with handfuls of internationals going unmatched, doom and gloom posts should be taken with skepticism.

As for "you need to do your own research"
I have done my research and explored the AMSA reports. It's you who made the decision to write "and the class of 2024 will most likely not get a spot". Since you are the one who made this claim, you are responsible for supporting the claim, the audience is not responsible for presenting evidence to you to disprove something you did not prove in the first place.

 

[kmf_51920]

I'm going to make two points and then stop replying. After all, this doesn't affect me as I'm not the one impacted. If you find my posts helpful, I'm glad it challenged you to rethink. If you don't believe it, then that's fine too and I wish you the best of luck with your decisions.

1.

Hold up, I never said "things are going to stay the same".

Need to work on your logic here. If you're not saying things are staying the same, and you're also refuting my notion that the situation will get worse, you're implying that situation will get better... that can't be right...anyway, no point arguing.

If you ask any graduating med student in Aus right now, they'll tell you it's getting worse. 10-20 years ago people walked in to jobs (internship or advance training positions). that's not the case any more. Same for internationals, getting an internship many years ago was easy, no longer the case. Even after you finish internship, what about advance training (residency equivalent in NA)? it's certainly getting more and more challenging.

2.
I can't prove something that'll happen in the future (just like how you can't disprove it too). Current AMSA reports have relevance, but it doesn't predict the future (and neither do you or I). I can only make a reasonable guess. Maybe I was a bit too harsh with saying "most likely won't get a position" but my point is that Aus internship is not (slash will not be) as safe a backup as people want it to be.

I'll leave you with this:
-number of internship positions haven't increased by much over the past few years (see AMSA reports)
-number of students/applicants for internship spots, however, have been increasing significantly (see MQ and Charles Stuart Uni entries)

you can connect the dots.

 

[Damson]

I'm going to make two points and then stop replying. After all, this doesn't affect me as I'm not the one impacted. If you find my posts helpful, I'm glad it challenged you to rethink. If you don't believe it, then that's fine too and I wish you the best of luck with your decisions.

1.


Need to work on your logic here. If you're not saying things are staying the same, and you're also refuting my notion that the situation will get worse, you're implying that situation will get better... that can't be right...anyway, no point arguing.

If you ask any graduating med student in Aus right now, they'll tell you it's getting worse. 10-20 years ago people walked in to jobs (internship or advance training positions). that's not the case any more. Same for internationals, getting an internship many years ago was easy, no longer the case. Even after you finish internship, what about advance training (residency equivalent in NA)? it's certainly getting more and more challenging.

2.
I can't prove something that'll happen in the future (just like how you can't disprove it too). Current AMSA reports have relevance, but it doesn't predict the future (and neither do you or I). I can only make a reasonable guess. Maybe I was a bit too harsh with saying "most likely won't get a position" but my point is that Aus internship is not (slash will not be) as safe a backup as people want it to be.

I'll leave you with this:
-number of internship positions haven't increased by much over the past few years (see AMSA reports)
-number of students/applicants for internship spots, however, have been increasing significantly (see MQ and Charles Stuart Uni entries)

you can connect the dots.

1. There's a problem here:

Me: I disagree with statements like "undisputed fact - it'll be much harder for grads in 4-5 years" and "class of 2024 will most likely not get a spot" because allocation outcomes have yet to indicate this.

You: So you're telling me you think the situation will get better.

Disagreeing with you ≠ holding a completely opposite position.

2. I agree that the opening of MQ will inject more internship-seeking docs (to the class of 2023/24). Merger of the MD course between CSU/WSU also means increased grads(2025 and onward). How the system will soak this up is unknown. But we do know that suggestions of doom in the past did not become reality. Claims of downturn must be scrutinized. Still we appreciate your warning, I and other incoming students will be vigilant about this possibility.

 

[sean80439]

This thread and in particular this argument tends to turn into a clown show. At present there are still more positions than graduating Australian domestic students. Until that changes there will always be opportunities. And to be honest just because domestic grads walk into jobs, every subsequent year is based on references and your ability to hustle no matter where you are from as long as you hold general registration.