Dismissal from M1

[SouthernSurgeon]

Pay attention, Goro. Being a faculty member doesn't mean you're right 100% of the time in 100% of discussions and no one else is allowed to have an opinion. My opinion is that you're making too many assumptions about the OP and basing even more assumptions on your assumptions.

Goro is giving you a peek behind the curtain, with some actual data on the performance of bottom of the class/marginally passing students.

This is a message board. I state my opinions and others disagree.

Right, it's a message board, and free discussion is encouraged.

But all you do is post the same opinion, over and over. The whole point of free discussion is that you listen to other people and consider their perspective. When you get presented with a contrary perspective, even when that perspective is backed by fact and experience, you just continue with your dogged insistence that your uninformed opinion is correct. Or worse, imply that others are trying to stifle open discussion by pointing out that you are wrong.

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[Elisabeth Kate]

Right, it's a message board, and free discussion is encouraged.

But all you do is post the same opinion, over and over. The whole point of free discussion is that you listen to other people and consider their perspective. When you get presented with a contrary perspective, even when that perspective is backed by fact and experience, you just continue with your dogged insistence that your uninformed opinion is correct. Or worse, imply that others are trying to stifle open discussion by pointing out that you are wrong.

Actually, what I did was address the points that Goro was making and tell him why I disagreed. No, I did not do that "over and over". Each post addressed specific things that he said. And yes, I do think that others are trying to stifle open discussion when they antagonistically tell me that I should I stop arguing against points made by others who are experts at how things work at their own schools. Their expertise does not negate my opinion or things that I know to be fact. As I said, Goro's experience at his school is not universal and neither are the policies that he stated. That's a relevant part of the discussion.

And now that we've sufficiently pointed out all the flaws in my posting style, perhaps we can get back to the topic at-hand and quit hijacking the thread with attacks on me. Those of you irritated at what I post have the option to ignore. Use it.

 

[razor]

This is a message board. I state my opinions and others disagree. My issue is people, like yourself, who believe that opinions should be restricted to only those who work in the daily grind of the topic -- such as Goro and school failure. THAT'S my issue. Just because my opinion doesn't match theirs, it doesn't mean I shouldn't post it.

And FYI, while Goro is an expert at his school, it's clear he's speaking on behalf of just his school as some of the policies he states aren't universal (like repeating the year or not being dismissed after failing remediation). So while he is an expert at how things function there, I don't think it's out of line to state how things work at other schools nor do I think it's out of line to state that we don't know all the facts about the OP and we're arguing based on assumptions.

One of 2 things happened. Let's look at the 2 scenarios and you decide what's more likely.

1. 6 students failed a 1st year course. The school then "rigged" the remediation exam as part of their conspiracy to hold these 6 students back a year as the OP suggests. It was also posited that this was done for extra income for the school.

2. A few students fail remediation and now the school's in a tough spot. Repeating first year means the school just lost 6 heads in 2017 class and that's 6 less fresh faces that can come in w/ 2018. Allowing them to continue on track is impossible because you can't fail anything. Then, things get messy w/ the administrative end of dealing w/ this bc nobody wants to kill this guy's chances of becoming a physician.

I'd vote for #2.

 

[Goro]

It's OK, IM, I have a 9 year old daughter, and so am used to the "I'm going to have the last word, even if I'm wrong" attitude.

Goro is giving you a peek behind the curtain, with some actual data on the performance of bottom of the class/marginally passing students.

Right, it's a message board, and free discussion is encouraged.

But all you do is post the same opinion, over and over. The whole point of free discussion is that you listen to other people and consider their perspective. When you get presented with a contrary perspective, even when that perspective is backed by fact and experience, you just continue with your dogged insistence that your uninformed opinion is correct. Or worse, imply that others are trying to stifle open discussion by pointing out that you are wrong.

At my school, remediation is just "show us that you know that bare-bones minimum of what you really need to know", and a C will suffice. So we ask about, say, "Where does the right pulmonary artery lead to?"

Every school is probably quite a bit different, but at my school the tests just aren't that hard. I'm being dead serious here and I've talked to some classmates that agree. Usually about 60% of the exam is "do you have a clue what's going on?," 20% is "are you really understanding the general, over-arching ideas," and the other 20 is "do you like memorizing gene loci and obscure eponyms."

The point I want to bring up is when my school has a 8% first timer's fail rate on level 1, that means those fringe students in preclinical courses (barely failed or barely passing) are presumably that 8%.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

One of 2 things happened. Let's look at the 2 scenarios and you decide what's more likely.

1. 6 students failed a 1st year course. The school then "rigged" the remediation exam as part of their conspiracy to hold these 6 students back a year as the OP suggests. It was also posited that this was done for extra income for the school.

2. A few students fail remediation and now the school's in a tough spot. Repeating first year means the school just lost 6 heads in 2017 class and that's 6 less fresh faces that can come in w/ 2018. Allowing them to continue on track is impossible because you can't fail anything. Then, things get messy w/ the administrative end of dealing w/ this bc nobody wants to kill this guy's chances of becoming a physician.

I'd vote for #2.

Yes, I'd vote for #2 as well. That was never my disagreement. He should have repeated the year and moved on and he could have become a physician. Now that he hasn't taken the offer, I think he's ruined his chances of ever becoming a doctor when he very well could have finished successfully had he just repeated the year.

 

[user3]

I still want to know how a student that was able to make a 3.4, 34 MCAT and a master's can fail a remediation class when it was the only subject they got to dedicate an ENTIRE summer to studying for. I mean, passing just 1 class isn't having to "walk and chew gum".

 

[Goro]

Usually, life events come in and clobber students. Very few don't "get" medical school.

I still want to know how a student that was able to make a 3.4, 34 MCAT and a master's can fail a remediation class when it was the only subject they got to dedicate an ENTIRE summer to studying for. I mean, passing just 1 class isn't having to "walk and chew gum".

 

[costales]

It's not intellectual ability. Usually it boils down to circumstances and motivation.

 

[Life Eternal]

One of 2 things happened. Let's look at the 2 scenarios and you decide what's more likely.

1. 6 students failed a 1st year course. The school then "rigged" the remediation exam as part of their conspiracy to hold these 6 students back a year as the OP suggests. It was also posited that this was done for extra income for the school.

2. A few students fail remediation and now the school's in a tough spot. Repeating first year means the school just lost 6 heads in 2017 class and that's 6 less fresh faces that can come in w/ 2018. Allowing them to continue on track is impossible because you can't fail anything. Then, things get messy w/ the administrative end of dealing w/ this bc nobody wants to kill this guy's chances of becoming a physician.

I'd vote for #2.

I think medical schools just add the repeating first years on top of the incoming class quota. They know every year a few students fail out, leave, or have to repeat a year, so everything ends up evening out in the end.

 

[user3]

I think medical schools just add the repeating first years on top of the incoming class quota. They know every year a few students fail out, leave, or have to repeat a year, so everything ends up evening out in the end.

I believe there is only a limit on the number of NEW matriculants. As far as I know there is not a limit of repeating students that can be added to the next year's class.

 

[IlDestriero]

Those of you irritated at what I post have the option to ignore. Use it.

But then you would post your nonsense unchecked by those who actually know the truth.

 

[Makati2008]

But then you would post your nonsense unchecked by those who actually know the truth.

Agreed. I won't call her postings nonsense because everyone deserves to voice their opinion but she is (like myself) only a PGY-1 trying to tell residents(upper level) and medical school faculty that they are wrong on issues that we both have little experience when compared to them. To me that is reckless and somewhat irresponsible.

I will admit I have made similar comments to hers in the past but when someone can legitimately show me where I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I believe there is only a limit on the number of NEW matriculants. As far as I know there is not a limit of repeating students that can be added to the next year's class.

Is there even a limit on the number of new matriculants? Given how big some classes are, I wasn't aware there was.

 

[hallowmann]

I believe there is only a limit on the number of NEW matriculants. As far as I know there is not a limit of repeating students that can be added to the next year's class.

I was told by a COM dean that the limit for repeats is 8% of their total class limit, which is why new COMs accept 108% the official limit they are allowed to by COCA in their first year.

Is there even a limit on the number of new matriculants? Given how big some classes are, I wasn't aware there was.

There absolutely is a limit on new matriculants set by the accrediting body. Schools cannot expand class sizes without getting the expansion approved, and there is a specific number of seats that each school and campus is permitted to have. This is at least what I was told, again by a COM dean, but obviously @Goro would probably have more info on how this works and @DocEspana may also have some better input. That said, I have no idea how easy it is for a fully accredited COM to get approved for expanding class sizes.

 

[Goro]

100% correct. If schools could get away with it, there would be classes of 1000.

COCA strictly limits class size and even increases in class size have to be justified. You have to demonstrate that you have the facilities to adequately educate the total number of students and this includes rotation sites.


There absolutely is a limit on new matriculants set by the accrediting body. Schools cannot expand class sizes without getting the expansion approved, and there is a specific number of seats that each school and campus is permitted to have. This is at least what I was told, again by a COM dean, but obviously Goro would probably have more info on how this works and may also have some better input. That said, I have no idea how easy it is for a fully accredited COM to get approved for expanding class sizes.[

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Thank you for the info

 

[DocEspana]

Goro has it right. You can look all of this stuff up on the COCA handbook on the AOAs webpage.

 

[DocEspana]

P.S. I'm on vacation. Literally. Haha. I just love you guys too much to still be replying.

 

[DocVapor]

P.S. I'm on vacation. Literally. Haha. I just love you guys too much to still be replying.

 

[DocEspana]

DocE is on the gulf coast, hiding from his residency duties for two weeks. But I check sdn once a day.

 

[schwasted589]

I'm curious as to what school this is because some elements of this story sound really familiar.

I know a few people that failed out from our class and I will say this: take everyone's stories with a grain of salt. Most people that don't do well blame the admin when it may not be 100% their fault. Everyone says they missed passing by 1 point or missed the B by 1 point...it's always 1 point.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm curious as to what school this is because some elements of this story sound really familiar.

I know a few people that failed out from our class and I will say this: take everyone's stories with a grain of salt. Most people that don't do well blame the admin when it may not be 100% their fault. Everyone says they missed passing by 1 point or missed the B by 1 point...it's always 1 point.

Yeah, but in fairness, I literally missed the grade above the one I got last semester by 1 question in 3 separate classes (literally - 1 question out of 600 in one class, 1 question out of 300 in another, and 1 question out of 70-something - OK that last one wasn't that close I guess ). I called it bad luck.

 

[schwasted589]

Yeah, but in fairness, I literally missed the grade above the one I got last semester by 1 question in 3 separate classes (literally - 1 question out of 600 in one class, 1 question out of 300 in another, and 1 question out of 70-something - OK that last one wasn't that close I guess ). I called it bad luck.

Oh don't get me wrong, I definitely think it happens. But I don't think that that's the case for every single person which is what most people will have you believe.

 

[GUH]

I'm curious as to what school this is because some elements of this story sound really familiar.

I know a few people that failed out from our class and I will say this: take everyone's stories with a grain of salt. Most people that don't do well blame the admin when it may not be 100% their fault. Everyone says they missed passing by 1 point or missed the B by 1 point...it's always 1 point.

I know a few who had to repeat a year and not a single one blamed the administration. They all told me the administration worked with them, not against them.

 

[hallowmann]

I know a few who had to repeat a year and not a single one blamed the administration. They all told me the administration worked with them, not against them.

Probably very school/person-specific. Those people were probably the same people that sucked it up and did well on their repeat (and went to a school that offered a good support system - which I hope is any US med school, but I'm too cynical for that).

 

[deleted480308]

my school, which definitely did lose a few first year, also has a few people repeating and others that claimed they were failing in more than one class at times and succesfully remediated without having to repeat the grade

I think a lot has to do with the admin and the student attitudes and how they mesh

 

[schwasted589]

I know a few who had to repeat a year and not a single one blamed the administration. They all told me the administration worked with them, not against them.

Most people that were repeating the year didn't complain; I'm talking about people that were dismissed. And obviously it's a generalization. I just know of 2-3 people at my school that were dismissed after failing multiple classes (3-4) and then blaming admin for being heartless. Life happens, and some bad stuff definitely did happen for a couple of the students but those people are remediating. From my personal experience knowing a few people that were dismissed it DEF wasn't a 1-2 point difference, even though that's what they tended to tell people.

 

[GUH]

Most people that were repeating the year didn't complain; I'm talking about people that were dismissed. And obviously it's a generalization. I just know of 2-3 people at my school that were dismissed after failing multiple classes (3-4) and then blaming admin for being heartless. Life happens, and some bad stuff definitely did happen for a couple of the students but those people are remediating. From my personal experience knowing a few people that were dismissed it DEF wasn't a 1-2 point difference, even though that's what they tended to tell people.

Ah, got it. Yeah I don't personally know anyone who has been dismissed for academic reasons, although it does happen.

 

[scummie]

Ah, got it. Yeah I don't personally know anyone who has been dismissed for academic reasons, although it does happen.

It does happen. How hard it is to get kicked out depends on your school. The kid I am thinking about pretty much failed everything the first semester, was given a second chance and flunked out again. The other people I know that have failed multiple classes just ended up repeating the year. No one wants to think, "Hey, Look at me! 45 on the MCAT and 4.0 GPA but I failed a class!" It can happen to you. There's always more to the story than what's being told initially. The people that I know had failures either usually had something serious going on in their personal life or were not studying effectively.

 

[21p]

My advice is to not give up and stay amicable with the admin. They hold the keys to your future if you want to be a DO. Failing class 2x + remediation 2x = not a leg to stand on in court. Private schools can do as they please without much oversight from the feddy gov. Trust me, I looked into it. Best bet imo: keep talking with them in person if you haven't been blackballed from campus. You will succeed, either here or somewhere else man!

 

[scummie]

I know the school and think I know the OP. My advice is to not give up and stay amicable with the admin. They hold the keys to your future if you want to be a DO. Failing class 2x + remediation 2x = not a leg to stand on in court. Private schools can do as they please without much oversight from the feddy gov. Trust me, I looked into it. Best bet imo: keep talking with them in person if you haven't been blackballed from campus. You will succeed, either here or somewhere else man!

I think I also know what school it is now also. What class was this?

 

[21p]

^good detective. 2016 I believe.

 

[hallowmann]

^good detective. 2016 I believe.

I thought that OP's school was a new DO school? The one that you two know isn't new right?

I automatically assumed they meant brand new, like Class of 2017 is their inaugural class (ACOM, CUSOM, & MUCOM), but I suppose it could be a new school that was made in the last few years.

 

[schwasted589]

I think I also know what school it is now also. What class was this?

I am so confused and curious right now...

 

[scummie]

So...any updates from the OP?

 

[Dr Dazzle]

The opportunity to repeat the year could have possibly been the best thing to happen to someone especially if they were barely passing and have gone through most of it already. The chance to solidify M1 and improve study strategies could allow someone to kill both M1, M2 and the boards if they put in the work the second time around. As much as it sucks I'm sure there are many second years who would wish to go back and solidify stuff because of the way knowledge is integrated in medicine.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

The opportunity to repeat the year could have possibly been the best thing to happen to someone especially if they were barely passing and have gone through most of it already. The chance to solidify M1 and improve study strategies could allow someone to kill both M1, M2 and the boards if they put in the work the second time around. As much as it sucks I'm sure there are many second years who would wish to go back and solidify stuff because of the way knowledge is integrated in medicine. Theoretically someone could turn everything around and be top of their class or something. I'm sure things aren't over as far as residency goes either.

 

[hallowmann]

The opportunity to repeat the year could have possibly been the best thing to happen to someone especially if they were barely passing and have gone through most of it already. The chance to solidify M1 and improve study strategies could allow someone to kill both M1, M2 and the boards if they put in the work the second time around. As much as it sucks I'm sure there are many second years who would wish to go back and solidify stuff because of the way knowledge is integrated in medicine.

That's true, but not all schools let you replace your grades if you repeat a course (including if you repeat a year). Some put a limit on the highest grade you can get on the repeat (e.g. 70, 75, etc.). That said at very least it's valuable in terms of solidifying knowledge and retaining big picture stuff. In first year things happen pretty fast and you're not always sure what's important or what's good to focus on.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

That's true, but not all schools let you replace your grades if you repeat a course (including if you repeat a year). Some put a limit on the highest grade you can get on the repeat (e.g. 70, 75, etc.). That said at very least it's valuable in terms of solidifying knowledge and retaining big picture stuff. In first year things happen pretty fast and you're not always sure what's important or what's good to focus on.

In my opinion, the only negative impact could be residency apps, where you have to explain what happened and the increased debt from 1 more year. But if the student becomes solid after the repeat year, fixes what they need to, and does well on boards, I doubt it would make that much difference at the end of the day as far as career options.

 

[costales]

In my opinion, the only negative impact could be residency apps, where you have to explain what happened and the increased debt from 1 more year. But if the student becomes solid after the repeat year, fixes what they need to, and does well on boards, I doubt it would make that much difference at the end of the day as far as career options.

A repeat year is a huge red flag to most PDs. It's a no-go for competitive programs.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

A repeat year is a huge red flag to most PDs. It's a no-go for competitive programs.

I'm curious as to what residency options there would be. Especially if someone was able to get a top boards score after repeating and were able to do well in 3rd year and on Sub internships. I think that a lot is based on hard work, and if you fix your approach especially in M1 and are solid from there out, your options could still be pretty flexible since you can still build a good record. Sure a red flag, but perhaps not something that can't be overcome. At least that's the impression I have. But I guess actual PDs would be the ones to ask.

 

[Serous Demilune]

I'm curious as to what residency options there would be. Especially if someone was able to get a top boards score after repeating and were able to do well in 3rd year and on Sub internships. I think that a lot is based on hard work, and if you fix your approach especially in M1 and are solid from there out, your options could still be pretty flexible since you can still build a good record. Sure a red flag, but perhaps not something that can't be overcome. At least that's the impression I have. But I guess actual PDs would be the ones to ask.

Yea but if you think about it, competitive programs are seeing identical scores and pubs from people who didn't fail a year, enough so that they can fill all their interview slots without ever getting to the guy who failed. That person would have to apply to programs who can't afford to be so picky.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Yea but if you think about it, competitive programs are seeing identical scores and pubs from people who didn't fail a year, enough so that they can fill all their interview slots without ever getting to the guy who failed. That person would have to apply to programs who can't afford to be so picky.

That makes sense. However, there are always stories of very unlikely people who end up getting in competitive residencies due to something that played out in their favor. I guess it's a little less standardized and black and white than we all like to think on SDN.

 

[21p]

I'd say it's a lot less standardized than a few opinions of what the standard may be, no offense. I've met several physicians who had rough spots in their training and went on to complete a residency of their choice after doing primary care/IM for a few years.

 

[schwasted589]

I know of someone that is a little older than me, that failed the comlex 2 x, passed it the third time and is a fam med resident right now and doing fine. I know he wanted to go into Peds and wasn't able to but he ended up SOMEWHERE. I mean, probably not the greatest situation but I guess there's hope.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I know of someone that is a little older than me, that failed the comlex 2 x, passed it the third time and is a fam med resident right now and doing fine. I know he wanted to go into Peds and wasn't able to but he ended up SOMEWHERE. I mean, probably not the greatest situation but I guess there's hope.

The key here is that if the person had just continued and gotten things straightened out, they had the opportunity to dominate rest of med school and end up with quite a few options at the end of the day based on rest of their application.

 

[NurWollen]

I'd say it's a lot less standardized than a few opinions of what the standard may be, no offense. I've met several physicians who had rough spots in their training and went on to complete a residency of their choice after doing primary care/IM for a few years.

I've known a few doctors who did something like this. They do a residency in one field and then practice for years before doing a second residency in a different field in order to make a career switch How do you go about doing this? Obviously you have to be willing to take a huge pay cut while doing the 2nd residency, but how do you get funding for doing a 2nd residency?

 

[Silent Cool]

I know of someone that is a little older than me, that failed the comlex 2 x, passed it the third time and is a fam med resident right now and doing fine. I know he wanted to go into Peds and wasn't able to but he ended up SOMEWHERE. I mean, probably not the greatest situation but I guess there's hope.

I suppose the question at this point is: if you know that FM is basically your only option, is it worth it?

 

[kelminak]

I suppose the question at this point is: if you know that FM is basically your only option, is it worth it?

What would you do if you were in the position of being almost done with medical school?

 

[deleted480308]

What would you do if you were in the position of being almost done with medical school?

literally crawl over glass if that was the only way