Dismissed...Reapplying to Med school...Desperately needing advice

[Iowaboy75]

Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum...but I need advice from med students and/or anyone involved in med school adminstrative affairs (possibly....)

So here's my long drawn out story in brevity:

I started medical school several years ago, and encountered academic difficulty in the first year. During the second year, I was dismissed for poor academic performance. I subsequently completed a Master's degree in a molecular biology program and excelled. Afterwards, I applied for re-instatement into my MD program and it was granted. I continued where I left off, retook the courses I failed in M1 year and continued into M2. During M2 year, I endured major conflicts in my personal life (i.e. divorce) and could not concentrate on classes, subsequently failed path and pharm. I was dismissed at the end of my M2 year for a second time, just before taking USMLE. Since then, I have joined a Ph.D program in Clinical pharmaceutical sciences, and have excelled in that program, and plan to have a summer thesis defense and graduation. I have a very high graduate GPA (3.8). I retook the MCAT last fall and scored very well (41 composite). As a part of my grad program I had to take the medical student course in pharmacology (the exact same course I took as a med student and failed) and got an A.

Even though I am about to graduate in a field where i can get a great job and secured future, in my heart of desire, I still want to be a physician. I am good as a researcher, but it doesn't make me happy. I want to work with patients. I don't really think its reasonable to think that I have a chance of being reinstated into my previous med school. I want to apply as a "new" med student and start again elsewhere. But I don't know how my history in med school is going to affect my ability to be accepted elsewhere. And yes, my dismissal does appear on my permanent transcript, so every place I apply to will know.

I am also open to the possibility of D.O. school as well. Does anyone have any advice for me?
Please feel free to ask me questions if I have left something out.
PS: please don't respond by saying I'm better off finding a Ph.D job and forgetting med school. This is what I've been hearing and I just don't want to go that route, I won't be happy.

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[Emergency!]

If you haven't done so already, you should contact some schools (both MD and DO) and arrange to speak to someone about your unique circumstances. If possible, try to make an actual appointment to speak with someone authoritative and don't just ask your questions to whoever answers the phone. Obviously, being dismissed twice is going to be tough to overcome, but only individual medical schools can tell you how they feel about this. Length of time since this happened may be a factor as well as whether or not you can show that you have made steps in how you deal with the wrinkles that life throws in your way. There is no guarantee that you are not going to again be faced with major life conflicts - are you going to be able to deal with them or are you going to find yourself in the same situation yet again?

If MD/DO schools aren't willing to take a chance on you, your only option may be a foreign school.

One other thing you may want to look into is to find out what your odds are for getting into a residency program with your past record. You don't want to spend the time and money on restarting an MD to get to the end and find out that nobody will accept you as a resident.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Right now adcoms are looking at you like bankers look at someone with a couple of bankruptcies and a credit score of 85. It's going to be tough, but if you scrape the bottom of the barrel and apply to DO's, the Caribbean, and foreign medical schools (no offense to attendees but that's what it is), you should eventually find some folks who admire your perseverence and dedication and empathize with your hard times personally. You don't need anyone to tell you that the rest of your app should be stellar, so do your best to get great LOR's and go on one of those mission trips to save AIDS babies, even if it means an extra year or two. You've waited this long already, right? And I know you don't want to hear why-dontcha-try whatever, but have you really examined your motives for becoming a physician? Are these motives compatible with becoming a PA or physical therapist or any number of other professions? If not, it's still worth thinking about, because you're going to have to do better than "I want to help people", "I want to see patients", or "I've always wanted to be a doctor in my heart of desire" on your personal statement.

 

[soeagerun2or]

So here's my long drawn out story in brevity:

I hate to say it but you had two shots and you blew them both. Most schools allow for personal time off during tough situations (e.g. your divorce) so you can regroup and prevent failure. Attempting to correct a problem after the fact is nearly impossible.

 

[Law2Doc]

I hate to say it but you had two shots and you blew them both.

Agree with this. I don't like your odds for US allo. Obviously sit down with your previous school's dean and see if there is anything you can do to get a third shot, but I wouldn't bet on it. Few other schools are going to be interested in another school's washout, but it never hurts to try to make appointments and ask. And I'm sure there are offshore options that will take your money though. Good luck.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Agree with this. I don't like your odds for US allo. Obviously sit down with your previous school's dean and see if there is anything you can do to get a third shot, but I wouldn't bet on it. Few other schools are going to be interested in another school's washout, but it never hurts to try to make appointments and ask. And I'm sure there are offshore options that will take your money though. Good luck.

I tend to agree with L2D on SDN, and I'm not going to argue here.

On the optimistic side, there might be some places in the US left who would take their chances on somebody with a Ph.D. and a 41 MCAT given that there is part of the AMCAS which will automatically force you to discuss previous admissions to medical school.

 

[NonTradMed]

The big issue is that you were let back into med school and failed yet again. Med schools are typically pretty good about letting you take a leave of absence should you want one. One girl at my school did just that even though it was for academic reasons (she was failing all of her exams) rather than for personal reasons. This way, it won't look like she had failed. You did not do this the two times you were in med school. As a result, I don't think med schools will be very forgiving about your two tries at med school. I think, given that you are obviously smart enough to do med school, your best bet is the carribean schools. They typically do not care that you are a 'drop out' and your stand out academic background will really entice them to take you. And the carribeans will also let you become a doctor. I can't say much for the DO schools because some may be just as picky about your dismissals while others may see your 41 and not be as quick to judge. You can try the DO schools, perhaps one of the newer ones and see where they net you. Good luck.

 

[tacrum43]

Wow, that's quite a story. I definitely think you should go and meet with some med school deans in person. Your situation is too unique to say what is likely to happen.

 

[jdh71]

considering extenuating circumstances, and proformence since dismissal, you have a decent shot of gettin back in, but only at your previous school. Hell, I'm a drug addict and admitted as much in the dean's office before begining a program of recovery and repeating second year. Most schools like to keep you around, but like someone else said, no other allopathic school is going to want some other school's dirty laundry. Make an appoitment with your old dean of students (or whoever in the dean's office you think will go to bat for you) and see what he/she thinks. Personally, I think you have a good shot considering . . . I go to school with people with crazier stories . . . honestly . . .

 

[Tired]

considering extenuating circumstances, and proformence since dismissal, you have a decent shot of gettin back in, but only at your previous school. Hell, I'm a drug addict and admitted as much in the dean's office before begining a program of recovery and repeating second year. Most schools like to keep you around, but like someone else said, no other allopathic school is going to want some other school's dirty laundry. Make an appoitment with your old dean of students (or whoever in the dean's office you think will go to bat for you) and see what he/she thinks. Personally, I think you have a good shot considering . . . I go to school with people with crazier stories . . . honestly . . .

Given his superior qualifications (41 and PhD), I'm willing to bet someone will at least want to interview him. My bet is that the interview will be the real make-or-break event here. Obviously he's smart enough to do it, what they will want to know is whether or not these failures will repeat a third time.

Be prepared with some very straight-forward "I take full responsibility" answers.

 

[bigdan]

I agree with Tired. Give it a shot.

Maybe contact some schools ahead of time. I spoke with the Admissions Director at SUNY Syracuse about a year before I started to make plans to take any pre-req courses, just to see what she thought about where my head was at, and what might work for me as I took courses. If you can bend the ear of some people, you might get a shot.

The real trouble with your question is you're asking a whole bunch of people who have little insight and even less authority on the admissions game.

I do think your road will be uphill, but I wish you good luck. Third time's a charm, right?

dc

 

[RaaMD]

It will be hard for many of us to give you an appropriate answer as to what you are looking for. The best thing that you can do is contact the schools individually and talk to the important people that can best assess your situation. You have had your share of ups (PhD and MCAT score) and downs (medical school performance). Also, since you are interested in DO schools give them a buzz as well. If you ultimately desire to become a doctor, then by all means do what you can to get there be it in the US or a foreign medical school. There is always a way.

 

[Taurus]

I agree with the above posters. Even DO is long shot. Carib is best shot.

I suggest securing a good job and working. You may end up a lot happier than if you went to med school again.

 

[Shinken]

I am also open to the possibility of D.O. school as well. Does anyone have any advice for me?
Please feel free to ask me questions if I have left something out.
PS: please don't respond by saying I'm better off finding a Ph.D job and forgetting med school. This is what I've been hearing and I just don't want to go that route, I won't be happy.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but your chances -in my opinion- for med school in the US are bleak. As mentioned before, you blew two chances. Yes, you had personal problems, but who doesn't? There are people I know that are successfully completing their coursework with personal problems such as divorce, death in the family, birth of a baby (while single), and cancer! (yes, I'm serious).

Also, DO schools will most likely not accept you if you've already failed twice at an MD school. Yes, DO schools look at the whole applicant, etc. but they still want someone that they think will be able to finish the curriculum (and no, DO schools aren't "easier"). You could lie on the applications and say you were never enrolled in med school and never produce transcripts, but do you really want to lie, be close to finishing DO school, and then be dismissed because your lie is discovered?

Finally, my question to you is: if a divorce caused you to fail two courses, what else will make you fail? Personal sickness? Sickness in a close relative? Life is full of ups and downs, and you have a long road ahead of you (at least 7 years...4 of med school and 3 for the shortest residencies). Can you be sure that you won't have any type of personal hardship in 7 straight years?

You and only you can assess your suitability for not only the career of medicine but your ability to complete the curriculum. Good luck and hopefully third time will be a charm, but be prepared to work hard and focus on the task in spite of life's "distractions."

 

[Wrigleyville]

You've been dismissed from medical school twice for shoddy performance. To describe that as a red flag on your application to other schools would be a ludicrous understatement -- it's more like a strobe light powered by a flaming pile of radioactive dog poop.

You have an amazing MCAT score, but schools use that to guage how well they think a student will do with their curriculum. You happen to have much stronger and more dramatic evidence as to how you'd do in med school -- you have a demonstrated track record of failure on two seperate occasions.

I sympathize with your personal situation, but I have yet to encounter anyone who failed that didn't have a laundry list of excuses and a sad story or two. I also bet, as Shinken mentions above, there are any number of people in your former class who suffered personal tragedy and misfortune during their years of schooling, but who were able to cope and keep up with the work.

Kudos to you for going on to get a PhD, but your best bet for an MD is still your former school. I don't see how anyone else would take a chance on you without, at the very least, some letters from your former school explaining your situation and supporting your application.

 

[8744]

Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum...but I need advice from med students and/or anyone involved in med school adminstrative affairs (possibly....)

So here's my long drawn out story in brevity:

I started medical school several years ago, and encountered academic difficulty in the first year. During the second year, I was dismissed for poor academic performance. I subsequently completed a Master's degree in a molecular biology program and excelled. Afterwards, I applied for re-instatement into my MD program and it was granted. I continued where I left off, retook the courses I failed in M1 year and continued into M2. During M2 year, I endured major conflicts in my personal life (i.e. divorce) and could not concentrate on classes, subsequently failed path and pharm. I was dismissed at the end of my M2 year for a second time, just before taking USMLE. Since then, I have joined a Ph.D program in Clinical pharmaceutical sciences, and have excelled in that program, and plan to have a summer thesis defense and graduation. I have a very high graduate GPA (3.8). I retook the MCAT last fall and scored very well (41 composite). As a part of my grad program I had to take the medical student course in pharmacology (the exact same course I took as a med student and failed) and got an A.

Even though I am about to graduate in a field where i can get a great job and secured future, in my heart of desire, I still want to be a physician. I am good as a researcher, but it doesn't make me happy. I want to work with patients. I don't really think its reasonable to think that I have a chance of being reinstated into my previous med school. I want to apply as a "new" med student and start again elsewhere. But I don't know how my history in med school is going to affect my ability to be accepted elsewhere. And yes, my dismissal does appear on my permanent transcript, so every place I apply to will know.

I am also open to the possibility of D.O. school as well. Does anyone have any advice for me?
Please feel free to ask me questions if I have left something out.
PS: please don't respond by saying I'm better off finding a Ph.D job and forgetting med school. This is what I've been hearing and I just don't want to go that route, I won't be happy.

Why do you want to be a doctor so badly? It's a decent job if you get into a specialty you like but it's not as if your every day is going to be some magical experience. Given your history, you're not even likely to end up in one of the higher paid lifestyle specialties so not only will your residency blow but you will probably be a lousy doctor to boot and have neither money nor the respect of your patients or your peers.

I have a lot of self doubt myself even though I seem to be doing very well in residency.

And DO schools, by the way, are not dumping grounds for failed MD students. They have no shortage of qualified aplicants and they won't even consider you.

So while I am usually a very optimistic guy and would say fight for every inch of ground, in your case you need to give it up. You obviously lack something that is required, a certain ability to suck it up and press ahead, that even cynical fellows like your Uncle Panda and certainly almost everyone in medical school possess in spades. You had two shots at it, you screwed it up. Third time is not a charm. It is so not worth what you are putting yourself through.

 

[baylormed]

I have to agree with Panda.

At the end, it's your decision and if you really really really really (can I stress that word enough?) want to do it, go for it.

However, it seems like you are probably somewhat older than the average applicant, you've flunked out of med school twice, you're unhappy with your current careers (what is there to say you won't be unhappy with medicine as well), you're in for 4 years of training + X years of residency, which means you'll be graduating with (a lot of) debt when you are older.

With the ridiculous number of qualified applicants...it's hard for anyone to get in, let alone someone with a difficult record.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck, hopefully you'll find some direction in what you should do.



PS. Panda, your quote reminds me of how much our beloved satire newspaper at my college makes fun of our "university scholars" majors (the I-can't-do-anything-with-this-degree-but-it-makes-me-sound-smart major here at old BU).

"What?! You mean I won't get paid to be obnoxious in the real world?!?"

 

[8744]

You've been dismissed from medical school twice for shoddy performance. To describe that as a red flag on your application to other schools would be a ludicrous understatement -- it's more like a strobe light powered by a flaming pile of radioactive dog poop.

You have an amazing MCAT score, but schools use that to guage how well they think a student will do with their curriculum. You happen to have much stronger and more dramatic evidence as to how you'd do in med school -- you have a demonstrated track record of failure on two seperate occasions.

I sympathize with your personal situation, but I have yet to encounter anyone who failed that didn't have a laundry list of excuses and a sad story or two. I also bet, as Shinken mentions above, there are any number of people in your former class who suffered personal tragedy and misfortune during their years of schooling, but who were able to cope and keep up with the work.

Kudos to you for going on to get a PhD, but your best bet for an MD is still your former school. I don't see how anyone else would take a chance on you without, at the very least, some letters from your former school explaining your situation and supporting your application.

Dude, one of the nicest and most intelligent people in our class had a brain tumor (that eventually killed her) and she graduated. I don't mean to be flippant like I usually am but the OPs problems (and mine and everybody's) pale to insignificance compared to that.

 

[Tired]

So while I am usually a very optimistic guy and would say fight for every inch of ground, in your case you need to give it up. You obviously lack something that is required, a certain ability to suck it up and press ahead, that even cynical fellows like your Uncle Panda and certainly almost everyone in medical school possess in spades. You had two shots at it, you screwed it up. Third time is not a charm. It is so not worth what you are putting yourself through.

Your point that he may not be able to hack it is valid. But with a PhD and a 41, don't you think he'll at least get a look from a few schools?

 

[8744]

I have to agree with Panda.

At the end, it's your decision and if you really really really really (can I stress that word enough?) want to do it, go for it.

However, it seems like you are probably somewhat older than the average applicant, you've flunked out of med school twice, you're unhappy with your current careers (what is there to say you won't be unhappy with medicine as well), you're in for 4 years of training + X years of residency, which means you'll be graduating with (a lot of) debt when you are older.

With the ridiculous number of qualified applicants...it's hard for anyone to get in, let alone someone with a difficult record.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck, hopefully you'll find some direction in what you should do.

I'm being totally serious here (for a change) but I can see how I probably would have been pretty happy and none the worse for the wear if I hadn't got into medical school. It would have stung a bit at the time but I would have got over it and my wife and I would probably look back and laugh at all the effort we spent and how important it seemed at the time.

Even once you get in you can still fail and end up somewhere you don't want to be like almost happened to me. Dude (OP), it will never end. Assuming you can get in you will probably fail a Step test, fail to match where and in what you really want, and end up in a residency that you settled for struggling to make it from year to year and then to pass the board exams. This wil beat all the magic out of it.

 

[8744]

Your point that he may not be able to hack it is valid. But with a PhD and a 41, don't you think he'll at least get a look from a few schools?

I confess that I have no real idea. Intuitively I'd think that he's, and he will please pardon the term, damaged goods.

 

[smq123]

Please feel free to ask me questions if I have left something out.
PS: please don't respond by saying I'm better off finding a Ph.D job and forgetting med school. This is what I've been hearing and I just don't want to go that route, I won't be happy.

I have a lot of questions:
1) How did you do so poorly in med school, but do so well in graduate school? Was the workload easier, or just less personal turmoil?

2) As others have mentioned, doctors aren't the only people to treat patients. Is PA or nursing school out of the question? Why do you have to be a doctor? And everyone's right - how do you know that you'll like medicine? Everyone starts med school convinced that they'll like it...but not everyone ends up liking it.

I started medical school several years ago, and encountered academic difficulty in the first year. During the second year, I was dismissed for poor academic performance. I subsequently completed a Master's degree in a molecular biology program and excelled. Afterwards, I applied for re-instatement into my MD program and it was granted. I continued where I left off, retook the courses I failed in M1 year and continued into M2. During M2 year, I endured major conflicts in my personal life (i.e. divorce) and could not concentrate on classes, subsequently failed path and pharm. I was dismissed at the end of my M2 year for a second time, just before taking USMLE.

3) To me, it doesn't sound like you've been given two chances, it sounds like you were given THREE chances. You didn't do well in 1st year, but they let you stay on. Then you failed MS2 and were dismissed. Then they let you back in, but you failed MS2 a second time. Isn't that 3 chances? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

4) Do you think that you can pass Step 1? I know that you did well in the med school's pharm class when you took it again recently. Could you handle taking that course at the same time as path and microbio?

I'm not asking these questions to be unkind, but I think you should ask these things of yourself.

Lots of stuff to think about....

 

[Dr. McDreamy]

as another poster said, this sounds to me like lots of great excuses, but not great action. you had lots of chances to do well in med school. you didn't. i don't think any medical school will touch you with a 10-foot pole with that record. I know that sounds harsh, but it's the truth. if you really want to, go for the caribean, i'm sure they'd take you. but you kissed your chances of a US allopathic school goodbye.

one girl in my class got pregnant unexpectedly, she had the baby last semester and is doing fine. She has given birth, recovered, and cared for a newborn screaming all night and nursing while taking a full load of medical courses...without making excuses. And as other posters said, you could have asked for a leave of absence during your divorce.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your point that he may not be able to hack it is valid. But with a PhD and a 41, don't you think he'll at least get a look from a few schools?

Not so much, IMHO. As a prior poster aptly indicated, the MCAT score is largely important to schools because it is a (weak) predictor of how folks tend to do in med school and on Step 1. But how people have done in med school (particularly second year, in terms of Step 1) is a FAR STRONGER indicator of how they will do in med school and on the boards. As such, the 41 likely gets no play for this applicant. It's like a baseball player with a lot of power in the minors but has already demonstrated no ability to connect to the ball in the majors. Useless.

And if you look on the nontrad board, you will see that PhDs and other advanced degrees are not really so much of a rarity in the applicant pool, and while they help add to class diversity, they do not make anyone a shoo in for med school. A PhD has to be one factor in a host of other med school worthy qualifications, and frankly, the black marks on the OPs record probably negate them.

But he won't know until he meets with his former and other deans and talks out the situation. Hopefully he will report back.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Not so much, IMHO. As a prior poster aptly indicated, the MCAT score is largely important to schools because it is a (weak) predictor of how folks tend to do in med school and on Step 1. But how people have done in med school (particularly second year, in terms of Step 1) is a FAR STRONGER indicator of how they will do in med school and on the boards. As such, the 41 likely gets no play for this applicant. It's like a baseball player with a lot of power in the minors but has already demonstrated no ability to connect to the ball in the majors. Useless.
And if you look on the nontrad board, you will see that PhDs and other advanced degrees are not really so much of a rarity in the applicant pool, and while they help add to class diversity, they do not make anyone a shoo in for med school. A PhD has to be one factor in a host of other med school worthy qualifications, and frankly, the black marks on the OPs record probably negate them.
But he won't know until he meets with his former and other deans and talks out the situation. Hopefully he will report back.

The other consideration for (especially state) medical schools is that the students they admit are a very real investment. Not just time and money, which is considerable despite tuition costs, but in terms of training a future doctor that will in effect pay back the taxpayers with service to the people of the state/area. Since they can't just go in and replace you with somebody off the street nor boost the next incoming class's quota by one, your two chances thus far has in effect robbed them of a physician. So I have to agree with you that there's no way your former school is going to let you come back and take another applicant's spot away. Your best bet is one of these Caribbean/foreign money factories, who pretty much understand that you're buying your degree and you'll attempt to go back to the US after graduation.

 

[Bitsy3221]

I don't mean to think the unthinkable here on SDN, but perhaps medical school and being a physician is just not for everyone. I have read multiple posts on this website from people who find themselves in serious, serious academic trouble, not just the failed test or one poor performance on a Step--SERIOUS trouble like being fired from a residency or being dismissed from medical school twice. I, frankly, am surprised by the number of people who paint a shiny coat on these stories, usually citing the "you've worked so hard and had such a long road to get here" reasoning--is that enough to be a competent (i'm not even going to say "good") physician? It's not as if getting through medical school is all that is required of you--you don't graduate and sit back and count your money. You graduate, and then the expectations required of you ramp up precipitously. I am not saying that only those who excelled in medical school are good doctors, we ALL know that is not the case. All I am saying is that despite the stories of perserverence and ultimate reward, medical school is competitive for a reason--because it is not easy being a doctor! This profession requires so much from people who choose to go into this field, not only academically, but emotionally and personally as well. (And if you disagree with me it's probably because you are fortunate enough to be gifted in these areas so you do not realize what has been required of you) Just wanting to be a doctor is not enough.

To the OP: I am sorry you are in this position, but as other posters have alluded to, you are not the passive victim in this case. We all have experienced unexpected emotional (and sometimes physical) emergencies, and part of being a mature medical professional is realizing when you are in over your head and you need help. Not only did you fail to recognize this and ask for appropriate help the first go-around, you did not learn from this experience and found yourself in the exact same situation again. You are clearly a very intelligent person, and I would (even though this is clearly not what you want to hear) recommend finding another passion in life. And despite what others have said, DO and PA schools are not going to be a cakewalk for you either, and I seriously doubt they are going to be welcoming with your academic record. You will have a lot of options in your life other than medical school, and I just think you should investigate those areas with more vigor.

 

[Iowaboy75]

First off, I appreciate everyone's comments, I know most of them are harsh, but its what I need to hear. I appreciate everyone's honest reactions. There is no room for living in "fantasy land" here. Let me respond to this person's questions:

I have a lot of questions:
1) How did you do so poorly in med school, but do so well in graduate school? Was the workload easier, or just less personal turmoil? I came into med school (the first time)with a very high undergraduate GPA and competitive MCAT scores. Not really knowing how to study for med school tests and such, I got off to a very rocky start, thinking there had to be something wrong with me. Now, unless anyone of you have been through a biomedical sciences grad program (MS or PHD), you don't really have room to comment on how workload compares to med school. But there were semesters in my Masters's and in my PhD program where I was taking 19 credit hours of graduate level courses (similar to med school classes) and doing lab work (at nights) and still getting a 4.0. To answer your question, I think it was personal turmoils that I had never faced before and didn't know how to bring balance into my life. And beyond that, I've gained maturity over several years that I should have had when I first started med school.

2) As others have mentioned, doctors aren't the only people to treat patients. Is PA or nursing school out of the question? Why do you have to be a doctor? And everyone's right - how do you know that you'll like medicine? Everyone starts med school convinced that they'll like it...but not everyone ends up liking it. It is not out of the question. Don't misunderstand me, I don' t mean to belittle their roles, but unfortunately PA's,nurses and other health care providers don't have the same roles as physicians (MD or DO) do. I want to be the primary provider and primary resource for my patients' healthcare. I believe the best capacity to be able to this autonomously would be as a physician.
And how do I know I'll like medicine...look at this point...I've had quite a bit of exposure to medicine in form or another. I have done physician shadowing, I have taken all the clinical practice courses in our curriculum (and done well), I know that I love medicine.

3) To me, it doesn't sound like you've been given two chances, it sounds like you were given THREE chances. You didn't do well in 1st year, but they let you stay on. Then you failed MS2 and were dismissed. Then they let you back in, but you failed MS2 a second time. Isn't that 3 chances? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I disagree....I am refering to dismissals specifically. When I say I didn't do well first year, I am saying that that I barely passed several classes...my school looks at that negatively also. I was given two chances.

4) Do you think that you can pass Step 1? I know that you did well in the med school's pharm class when you took it again recently. Could you handle taking that course at the same time as path and microbio? I know I can pass Step 1 with flying colors, I have no doubt. I have taken SEVERAL practiced and timed tests (full length) and have done very well. It is just extremely unfortunate for me that I know I have the ability to excel in the classes, however, because I was unable to balance out my life to put school as a priority (due to lack of maturity and lack of discipline), I am in the current situation.

What honestly sparked this interest to pursue medicine again, is I have a good friend who also matriculated in med school with me years ago and she ended up going through almost exactly the same scenario that I did...meaning doing poor first year...getting dismissed, getting reinstated and doing poor again and dismissed a second time. She has started at a DO school out East this past fall and she is doing extremely well...so I think there maybe a chance for me too....

But I agree with several of the responses...I need to sit down and dig deep into my soul and figure out why it is I want to be a physician....as someone said earlier...simply saying you want to be a doctor because I want to help patients...isn't good enough. Thank you to all the responses, please keep it coming....
(PS: I hate to talk about this...but I'm not putting myself through this for the money....hell...as a PhD in pharmaceutics I've got job offers for 200-300K per year...so I'm wanting to be a physician and not wanting their salaries).

 

[Church]

Not being harsh, I have no idea what a PhD in Pharm earns and I'll take your word for it. Take the job in Pharmaceuticals.

 

[Tired]

Not so much, IMHO. As a prior poster aptly indicated, the MCAT score is largely important to schools because it is a (weak) predictor of how folks tend to do in med school and on Step 1. But how people have done in med school (particularly second year, in terms of Step 1) is a FAR STRONGER indicator of how they will do in med school and on the boards. As such, the 41 likely gets no play for this applicant. It's like a baseball player with a lot of power in the minors but has already demonstrated no ability to connect to the ball in the majors. Useless.

Again, I'm no adcom, so if you are, just ignore everything I'm saying here because it's just speculation.

I think the 41 does get a little play for a couple reasons:

1) He retook the MCAT after the second dismissal. So it's a fresh score, and he may be able to spin it as indicative of his turn around. To use your baseball analogy, it's like when the pros get sent down to the minors for a few games after an injury to prove that they're still able to play.

2) Schools love high scores, especially non-top 50 schools, because it kicks up their average MCAT. I scored >40 and got into my state school, despite the fact that I accidently missed my interview with the Dean twice. (no joke)

3) Graduation rates are really high at most schools, and at least where I'm at, they really hate not graduating people, no matter the circumstances. We have students who are going on six and seven years in school. . .

And if you look on the nontrad board, you will see that PhDs and other advanced degrees are not really so much of a rarity in the applicant pool, and while they help add to class diversity, they do not make anyone a shoo in for med school. A PhD has to be one factor in a host of other med school worthy qualifications, and frankly, the black marks on the OPs record probably negate them.

Can't speak for other schools, but my class has 3 or 4 Masters, but no PhDs. I thought it was reasonably uncommon to see PhDs in med school, outside the MD/PhD folks.

You may be right, and he may be down and out, but I'm not so sure (and I'm normally the one telling people to quit). Like you, I hope he'll keep us informed of his progress.

 

[Taurus]

I think you need to take a look at this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=195799

 

[Tired]

I think you need to take a look at this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=195799

What does the thread titled: "If you could do it over again, would you?" have to do with this thread?

 

[Taurus]

What does the thread titled: "If you could do it over again, would you?" have to do with this thread?

This is a must-read for anyone thinking of going to med school.

 

[Tired]

This is a must-read for anyone thinking of going to med school.

Oh.

So actually it has nothing to do with this thread.

Thanks though, I guess.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Iowaboy,

I am going to be honest in my opinion. I don't think a US allopathic program will take you. After two tries, this will be a red flag to the adcoms.

Your best bet would be to apply to an offshore school, or perhaps an osteopathic program. If you apply to an osteopathic program, just stay away from the older schools as they tend to be very picky about who they take. So apply to the newer osteopathic schools. I would imagine they'd be more flexible about who they take. I suspect some of the newer private osteopathic programs are going to be with problems because they are new. And there are certain schools I would avoid. Nevertheless, this is a potential avenue for you to get to where you want. And I am not writing this post as a bash against DOs or anything. I am in a osteopathic program.

So I wish you the very best on your pursuit. Be sure to hang around SDN and get a feel for what people have to say about this or that. If medicine is what you want, then don't give up.

C&C

 

[smq123]

I disagree....I am refering to dismissals specifically. When I say I didn't do well first year, I am saying that that I barely passed several classes...my school looks at that negatively also. I was given two chances.

I see what you mean. I misunderstood.

But to see this from a med school's perspective: You barely got through first year. Even though you passed, that still should have been a wake-up call for you to learn how to study and how to adjust to med school life. You clearly didn't, and so didn't pass second year. You took some time off to re-apply and, ideally, you should have taken some time to really think about how to do better the next time around. You didn't learn from your mistakes during the first 2 years, and so didn't pass again. (There were special circumstances, but still.)

This is really disconcerting, from a school's point of view. Even though you knew the warning signs of impending academic failure (because you had experienced them before), you still didn't seek help from the school's adminstration. They clearly would have been willing to help, since they would probably know how precarious your situation already was. How can you prove to them that this won't happen again?

I know I can pass Step 1 with flying colors, I have no doubt. I have taken SEVERAL practiced and timed tests (full length) and have done very well. It is just extremely unfortunate for me that I know I have the ability to excel in the classes, however, because I was unable to balance out my life to put school as a priority (due to lack of maturity and lack of discipline), I am in the current situation.

Ah. Okay.

Please, I don't mean to be rude, but...ARE YOU F#@*ING KIDDING ME?!?!?!

I have never met an honest med student who confidently thought that they could pass Step 1. Even after studying for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 5-6 weeks, most people are hoping just to PASS, much less pass with "flying colors." That displays an level of optimism that I have never seen before.

Where, when, how and why have you taken several full length Step 1 exams? Did you subscribe to Qbank just for fun? (Qbank is insanely expensive.) And you actually sat down and completed several tests, just to see how well you would do? A full length USMLE test takes over 7 hours to finish.

I'm sorry I sound so skeptical. It's just so hard to believe. You barely passed first year, failed pathology, and didn't complete 2nd year, and yet you managed to do "very well" on mock Step 1 exams? How is that even possible?

[Maybe I'm just naive and too inexperienced to know anything about Step 1. Can someone else (Tired, Panda Bear) jump in with a more experienced perspective?]

I know that you're anxious to make a fresh start and get into med school. It just doesn't seem like you have a terribly realistic grasp of a) how much harder med school can get AFTER 1st and 2nd year, and b) how difficult it will be to become an MD or a DO. Proving that you've become more focused, become mature enough to handle any serious emotional distractions, and learned when to ask for help is going to be a serious uphill (if not impossible) battle.

 

[Tired]

Please, I don't mean to be rude, but...ARE YOU F#@*ING KIDDING ME?!?!?!

I have never met an honest med student who confidently thought that they could pass Step 1. Even after studying for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 5-6 weeks, most people are hoping just to PASS, much less pass with "flying colors." That displays an level of optimism that I have never seen before.

Where, when, how and why have you taken several full length Step 1 exams? Did you subscribe to Qbank just for fun? (Qbank is insanely expensive.) And you actually sat down and completed several tests, just to see how well you would do? A full length USMLE test takes over 7 hours to finish.

I'm sorry I sound so skeptical. It's just so hard to believe. You barely passed first year, failed pathology, and didn't complete 2nd year, and yet you managed to do "very well" on mock Step 1 exams? How is that even possible?

[Maybe I'm just naive and too inexperienced to know anything about Step 1. Can someone else (Tired, Panda Bear) jump in with a more experienced perspective?]

I know that you're anxious to make a fresh start and get into med school. It just doesn't seem like you have a terribly realistic grasp of a) how much harder med school can get AFTER 1st and 2nd year, and b) how difficult it will be to become an MD or a DO. Proving that you've become more focused, become mature enough to handle any serious emotional distractions, and learned when to ask for help is going to be a serious uphill (if not impossible) battle.

I get your skeptisism about his ability to pass Step 1, and I'm sure that the OP, being honest with himself, understands why others looking at his situation would question his ability to spank the test.

As a general priniciple about people's assessments of their ability to pass Step 1, I think there are two different types of med students who say they're worried about passing.

Certainly there are those with mediocre records who question their ability to pass Step 1. They maybe almost failed a couple courses, maybe they go to a Caribbean school, or maybe they just suck at standardized tests (low MCAT score). These people should be worried, and should spend a lot more time studying.

Then there are a lot more who do fine in school, but walk around going "Oh my God! I'm going to fail." I hate people like this. They know they'll pass the exam, but they have to play up the possibility of failure to motivate themselves, get attention, solicit positive feedback ("No you won't! You're so smart! OhmyGod, I wish I had your brains!), etc. I bet these types are most of the ones you are referring to in your post.

For myself, I never doubted my ability to pass Step 1. My question was more, will I do well enough to be competitive for the surgical subspecialties?

The truth is, when you look at the pass rates, most of the people taking Step 1 will pass it. If you can pass your courses in school, and you did reasonably well on Step 1, you'll get above a 182 (or whatever the cutoff is in your year).

 

[smq123]

Then there are a lot more who do fine in school, but walk around going "Oh my God! I'm going to fail." I hate people like this. They know they'll pass the exam, but they have to play up the possibility of failure to motivate themselves, get attention, solicit positive feedback ("No you won't! You're so smart! OhmyGod, I wish I had your brains!), etc. I bet these types are most of the ones you are referring to in your post.

This is totally off-topic from the thread, but that's really interesting. Some of my classmates are totally the opposite. This one girl would always say stuff like "I was ACING this exam until I got to the last section, which maybe kept me from getting honors." Umm...consider that this was the girl who honestly thought that there were 14 cranial nerves up until the day before the exam. She also didn't know that the ascending aorta and the abdominal aorta are NOT separate vessels, but just continuations of the same pipe. With that in mind, I don't know if honors was really all that feasible.

But I do get what you mean. Good to know - that makes me feel a bit better, seeing as how Step 1 is coming up for me this spring.

 

[OncoCaP]

Iowaboy75's story doesn't add up and seems to have gaps as far as I can tell ... starting with the pay of a Ph.D. in Pharmaceutics. Actual pay is more in the $100K range for Texas, for example. He has a ready excuse for everything; he is not taking responsibility for anything. He fouled out of medical school and now he's fouling out of the pharmaceutical business for reasons that he hasn't revealed (and probably never will) and what he has said (my friend who was in the same situation ...) I find contrived and peripheral. He probably can't find a job for one reason or another and is looking for a gig. Maybe he made his advisor mad and can't get a good reference; I don't know. Clearly something is wrong or he wouldn't be getting out of the biotech or drug development research business, which has plenty of great jobs for capable minds. If he's such hot stuff he would work for a while and invent a wonderdrug or something and have a fleet of MD physicians working for him. The reality is that he lacks what it takes there and is bouncing around again. He probably has a genius IQ but lacks other, more important qualities that the labor market and medical field require, starting with credibility. Sorry to be so unpositive and judgmental about this, but Iowaboy's story just doesn't hold water as far as I can tell.

 

[Hard24Get]

Iowaboy75's story doesn't add up and seems to have gaps as far as I can tell ... starting with the pay of a Ph.D. in Pharmaceutics. Actual pay is more in the $100K range for Texas, for example. He has a ready excuse for everything; he is not taking responsibility for anything. He fouled out of medical school and now he's fouling out of the pharmaceutical business for reasons that he hasn't revealed (and probably never will) and what he has said (my friend who was in the same situation ...) I find contrived and peripheral. He probably can't find a job for one reason or another and is looking for a gig. Maybe he made his advisor mad and can't get a good reference; I don't know. Clearly something is wrong or he wouldn't be getting out of the biotech or drug development research business, which has plenty of great jobs for capable minds. If he's such hot stuff he would work for a while and invent a wonderdrug or something and have a fleet of MD physicians working for him. The reality is that he lacks what it takes there and is bouncing around again. He probably has a genius IQ but lacks other, more important qualities that the labor market and medical field require, starting with credibility. Sorry to be so unpositive and judgmental about this, but Iowaboy's story just doesn't hold water as far as I can tell.

I agree. No one can be this delusional. And no pharmaceutical job would pay that much without a post-doc, and how would he/she find the time totake several mock exams? Moreover, why was the person strugging AT BASELINE before any emotional problems?


I think we are both smelling....

P.S.
Just in case this is a true story, as a recently minted PhD I can say that grad school is easier than med school in terms of memorization - if the OP doesn't have the latter, they will never make it through med school and are better off getting involved in clinical trials as a PhD to work with patients.

 

[Law2Doc]

...consider that this was the girl who honestly thought that there were 14 cranial nerves up until the day before the exam.

Sounds right to me -- one for each letter of the alphabet.

 

[pankun]

Grandiose thinking. Bipolar anyone??

 

[Church]

If the OP _isn't_ a troll, my question (in the role of a prospective adcom) is: You did poorly twice, and tell me that a lack of maturity played a role. If you can't find the maturity by the time you're 41 and in medical school, how can you assert right now that you HAVE found that maturity that apparently 99.5% of your classmates have?

It sounds harsh (it IS harsh) but that's exactly what they will think if your comments about lacking maturity leave your mouth. Maturity is supposed to be one of the strong areas for non-trad (mature) students. The rest of your stuff you could gloss over with carefully crafted words, but saying that will get you shown the door.

 

[primadonna22274]

Yup, and PA schools shouldn't be dumping grounds either....
I agree this is a tenuous situation but I hate for people to have the impression that PA school is for med school flunkies or folks who couldn't hack it. A PA program isn't gonna go any easier on a guy than a med school program. If anything, the med schools who gave him two chances were probably kinder than any PA program I've known.

And DO schools, by the way, are not dumping grounds for failed MD students. They have no shortage of qualified aplicants and they won't even consider you. .

 

[Pembleton]

If the OP _isn't_ a troll, my question (in the role of a prospective adcom) is: You did poorly twice, and tell me that a lack of maturity played a role. If you can't find the maturity by the time you're 41 and in medical school, how can you assert right now that you HAVE found that maturity that apparently 99.5% of your classmates have?

It sounds harsh (it IS harsh) but that's exactly what they will think if your comments about lacking maturity leave your mouth. Maturity is supposed to be one of the strong areas for non-trad (mature) students. The rest of your stuff you could gloss over with carefully crafted words, but saying that will get you shown the door.

He said he scored 41 on the MCAT. It's not his age.

 

[Tired]

He said he scored 41 on the MCAT. It's not his age.

Yeah, and I don't see where he attributed his failure to immaturity either. He blamed it on personal problems.

 

[Bitsy3221]

Tired:

It is just extremely unfortunate for me that I know I have the ability to excel in the classes, however, because I was unable to balance out my life to put school as a priority (due to lack of maturity and lack of discipline), I am in the current situation.

 

[medlife]

Save up two or three thousand dollars and reapply. You've already successfully completed the majority of your M1 and M2 coursework. Taking them again would be incredibly easy.

Make sure you apply to several top schools, regardless of what students on here say. MANY top schools do a better job creating their coursework and are EASIER!!! (Ex. Yale is ungraded. You CAN'T fail out!) Granted, that's IF they take you.

IF medicine is your calling, the ONLY way you can ever be content with yourself is if you reapply. In the US, first. Getting [positive/negative] feedback from students is irrelevant. You MUST reapply, but the issue is strategic reapplication. Carefully selecting your schools, (in the US) and talking to admissions directly beforehand. You may want to apply to more schools. And you MUST know about the schools' curriculums. (which are easier/harder)

If your attempt to reapply to US medical schools doens't work out, THEN try DO or Carribbean schools. It's not an option until you've been rejected to US MD schools. (if you have 2-3 grand to spare).

 

[8744]

Save up two or three thousand dollars and reapply. You've already successfully completed the majority of your M1 and M2 coursework. Taking them again would be incredibly easy.

Make sure you apply to several top schools, regardless of what students on here say. MANY top schools do a better job creating their coursework and are EASIER!!! (Ex. Yale is ungraded. You CAN'T fail out!) Granted, that's IF they take you.

IF medicine is your calling, the ONLY way you can ever be content with yourself is if you reapply. In the US, first. Getting [positive/negative] feedback from students is irrelevant. You MUST reapply, but the issue is strategic reapplication. Carefully selecting your schools, (in the US) and talking to admissions directly beforehand. You may want to apply to more schools. And you MUST know about the schools' curriculums. (which are easier/harder)

If your attempt to reapply to US medical schools doens't work out, THEN try DO or Carribbean schools. It's not an option until you've been rejected to US MD schools. (if you have 2-3 grand to spare).

Jesus. If I were a patient I would find this strangely disturbing.

 

[toothless rufus]

If it's what you want, give it a shot. Can't hurt. But getting the boot twice? I dunno. I could not imagine making that mistake. Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

Make sure you apply to several top schools, regardless of what students on here say. MANY top schools do a better job creating their coursework and are EASIER!!! (Ex. Yale is ungraded. You CAN'T fail out!) Granted, that's IF they take you.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. While I agree that some schools have easier curriculums, that doesn't really matter here. The issue for the OP is simply can he get into med school at all. Anywhere. The better the school, the less interested in him they are going to be.