Do newer graduates really see the same thing as this author ?

[CVS Rph 1980]

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...ersupply-pharmacy-school-surplus-debate-rages

From what I have seen, these type of pharmacy students such as the one authoring this article are very good at representing pharmacy organizations and not so good at performing under pressure. I am thankful I have not had much interaction or opportunity to work with these new generation pharmacists for more than 6-8 weeks due to their mandatory rotational cycles. They might be good at presenting posters and representing their respective class as President but unfortunately are so so at best in a high intense fast paced environment.

Do these guys have a shot at lasting more than 5 years in CVS? In my experience, these guys are just set up to fail from the start with this attitude

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[trailerpark]

Yawn... Same old rhetoric, different day, same kool-aid.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

People are graduating from schools I've never heard of before. It used to just be the original 70 or however many. Then there were the new ones we made fun of, but there were a handful of them where you could still keep track. Now I don't even...

 

[Dred Pirate]

Yawn... Same old rhetoric, different day, same kool-aid.

agreed - every new grad (even those 20 years ago) where "going to change the world" Whatever - although it does seem like every year the new grads are less prepared for real world situations. But that could be because I am getting older and older and more annoyed by the same antics people in my class probably did.

 

[Guilded_Age]

Directly going after an old dog like Kiacz? Something tells me he knows a bit more about the profession than you do, cute little 2015 grad who has gobbled up every buzzword provided to you by your school.

"Y-you old meanie! T-telepharmacy will let us provide care to astronauts and p-poor people! I-I can work anywhere I want! Except every major city in America... Career options! MTM! Interprofessional something something! I b-bring VALUE!"

Got a good chuckle out of the comments calling her out on her unfounded and vague claims, though.

Also: Just saw he replied to her article in the comments. This sums it up beautifully...

"Academic organizations, like the AACP or ACPE, are well prepared to promote their own visionary pictures of future, nontraditional, pharmacist roles, but have little interest in your individual success or survival once you step off the college campus. They have already collected their fees."​

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

The overall level of mental ******ation I find in all these articles and forum posts makes me confident that I will always have a job as long as I can avoid any major head injuries. The pharmacy student quoted is a primadonna who is going to be sadly disappointed by the real world and the so-called "CEO" runs a temp staffing agency in which he is probably the only employee.

 

[confettiflyer]

Publication bias...actual students grounded in the real world wouldn't write anything, we keep our heads down and are hungry to join the workforce, not live in la la land.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Very naïve. I remember my professors back in the 80's talking about the exact same thing, "the changing model of pharmacy practice", they had different terms for it back then, but the idea was the same. I worked both hospital & retail as tech during summers, and most of my classmates also were working in real pharmacies, so most of us knew the professors had no idea what they were talking about (some of the professors were known to have failed careers working as actual pharmacists, which made their pie-in-the-sky stories of the future of pharmacy even more unbelievable.) And now that I think about it, the friend I had who did actually believe that stuff, had zero experience working in a pharmacy until she started externships/rotations.

My theory, since its become increasingly harder for pharmacy students to get jobs as technicians or interns, they don't have contact with the real pharmacy world and with real pharmacists, so they are believing all the stuff they are being fed to by their professors. Not getting, this stuff has been tried since probably the 60's, and until a valid payment model is accepted by the public, its not going to change.

 

[BidingMyTime]

And this guy who thinks pharmacist jobs will be saved by mandating CMR's. 1st) even if this were mandated, there aren't that many seniors to provide jobs for exponentially increasing number of pharmacy graduates. and 2nd) most people don't want CMR's, many people already can get them for free under Medicare, but they don't want them. Many people, especially seniors, don't care what medicine they are on or what side effects they have, they don't care how much their medicine costs (as long as they aren't the ones paying for it), they really don't care. There is no way a mandate like this will be passed without taxpayer/voter approval (majority voters are seniors), therefore the likelihood of this mandate passing is 0.000000001%

 

[BMBiology]

I know some of you are going to be surprised to hear this from me but I am tired of talking about the saturation!

We all know it is already here. That is no longer debatable. Some of us will make it while others won't. It is now just a number game.

So what are YOU doing to prepare for this tsunami?

 

[BidingMyTime]

I know some of you are going to be surprised to hear this from me but I am tired of talking about the saturation!

hahahahahaha, it's not April Fool's yet. You are funny.

So what are YOU doing to prepare for this tsunami?

Put my children through college, and hope they will support me? Seems much more likely to work then expecting 500,000 new full-time MTM jobs to open up.

 

[BMBiology]

OK, fine...here is another saturation post.

Starting this Fall, pharmacy schools will feel the effect of the saturation. A few students have already dropped out. Some students are finally realizing pharmacy is no longer a viable option and they are declining their acceptance. However, there is already a gut of pharmacy students so any drop in enrollment will take some time. I believe the next 5-10 years will be dark age of this profession. Underemployment. Cuts. More work for less pay. Brace yourself.

 

[Guilded_Age]

I know some of you are going to be surprised to hear this from me but I am tired of talking about the saturation!

We all know it is already here. That is no longer debatable. Some of us will make it while others won't. It is now just a number game.

So what are YOU doing to prepare for this tsunami?

I've swam to another ocean entirely.

I got in this profession for money, and I'll be damned if a bunch of greedy idiots from California who have the last name 'Nguyen' ruin this for me. I'll get my million greens yet. This could have been an easy six figure job... but you ***** had to ruin it for everyone.

Better than other professions my ass, other professions aren't as painted into a corner as we are.

 

[confettiflyer]

I got in this profession for money, and I'll be damned if a bunch of greedy idiots from California who have the last name 'Nguyen' ruin this for me. I'll get my million greens yet. This could have been an easy six figure job... but you ***** had to ruin it for everyone.

Wow. Racist, much?

 

[BMBiology]

I've swam to another ocean entirely.

I got in this profession for money, and I'll be damned if a bunch of greedy idiots from California who have the last name 'Nguyen' ruin this for me. I'll get my million greens yet. This could have been an easy six figure job... but you ***** had to ruin it for everyone.

Better than other professions my ass, other professions aren't as painted into a corner as we are.

Wait a minute, did you just accuse others of being greedy when you admitted, "I got in this profession for money"?

Blame yourself. You are just shorted sighted. You got greedy and you thought it would last forever. You didn't care just as long as you made your money right? What did you think would happen?

I hope you are not in retails and you don't have any debt left. You are going to get pushed out by the new grads.

 

[Sugoi Travis]

How the hell can you say that we're moving towards interprofessional collaboration when a vast majority of the field is in retail where there is hardly any interprofessional collaboration in the first place? It might just be what I'm seeing, but I don't feel like I'm part of any sort of "team" with the doctors, nurses, etc etc (not that I have any issue with it).

 

[SpartanLaser]

I graduated may of 2014.

No these students have no idea what they're talking about. School is nothing like real life. This is just me but I'm not a fan of people that want others to notice they are a "Dr." Yes, techinically all people with doctorates are doctors, but when was the last time a lawyer referred to themselves as a doctor?

 

[Guilded_Age]

Wow. Racist, much?

Oh, please. 1/3 of my graduating class was from California. And we had 10 Dr. Nguyens in our class out of 100-someting. It was a simple joke poking fun of the saturation of Californians who happen to be Asian who have parents that pressure them into getting PhamD's.

Wait a minute, did you just accuse others of being greedy when you admitted, "I got in this profession for money"?

Blame yourself. You are just shorted sighted. You got greedy and you thought it would last forever. You didn't care just as long as you made your money right? What did you think would happen?

I hope you are not in retails and you don't have any debt left. You are going to get pushed out by the new grads.

Oh I accept this all without hesitation, friend. I am a greedy, violent piece of garbage. I started on this path to make easy green, make no mistake. As did many others. The difference between me and those other greedy idiots is that I evolved over time. I adjusted my path. I ended up on a plateau, with a beautiful view to watch the herds be wiped out by the rising waters.

I will not get pushed out because I'm already something more advanced. I will have my share of sacrifices to advance, though, but I'll still get my security and green. I don't meant to toot my own horn too much, but I like to think I've turned my PharmD into something both unique and profitable.

I'm a big fan of yours, by the way. It is satisfying to be quoted by you- you've been a prophet for quite some time.

 

[BMBiology]

^^ I think your blame is misplaced. With easy access to student loans and schools opening left and right, there is no stopping this gravy train. The trains will be filled regardless.

 

[Guilded_Age]

^^ I think your blame is misplaced. With easy access to student loans and schools opening left and right, there is no stopping this gravy train. The trains will be filled regardless.

Oh I'm just especially bitter and a little drunk tonight. I really don't blame anyone going into pharmacy, but after 2020 I'll hold it against them because the writing will be on the walls by then.

 

[DruggieDoRight]

They really do believe it. It freaks me out a little bit.

 

[BMBiology]

This is why I believe enrollment will start to drop soon. Take a look at the number of students applying to pharmacy schools:

http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

The number of applicants peaked in 2009-2010 at 111,744. Ever since, the number has been dropping. In 2012-13, the number of applicants dropped to 87,956 or a 21% decrease. Some schools received < 200 applicants. A few schools receievd < 100 applicants. This is obviousy not sustainable.

 

[awval999]

This is why I believe enrollment will start to drop soon. Take a look at the number of students applying to pharmacy schools:

http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

The number of applicants peaked in 2009-2010 at 111,744. Ever since, the number has been dropping. In 2012-13, the number of applicants dropped to 87,956 or a 21% decrease. Some schools received < 200 applicants. A few schools receievd < 100 applicants. This is obviousy not sustainable.

Bio--- Even though the number of applicants are dropping, I don't believe that will lower the enrollment. These new schools already have sunk costs. They have already built the buildings. They will see it through to the end. In poker speak, they are "pot-committed". All it will cause is worse and worse students becoming pharmacists.

The only benefit I can see is that it may finally stop the growth of new schools.

 

[BMBiology]

You are right about admissions standards. They have been dropping like a rock and will continue to drop. Just as long as they have access to student loans...they are in! But, I am hopeful some applicants are seeing the light and things will change. I also noticed this was posted in the pre-pharmacy forum. Pharmacy schools are still looking for students this late in the game!

Email from PharmCAS:

All official PharmCAS deadlines have passed, but some schools may still be accepting applications and are granting individual deadline extensions.

Below is a list of schools that have informed PharmCAS that they will be granting extensions on a case-by-case basis. Applicants must reach out to the school directly for consideration:

Albany College of Pharmacy - Albany, NY
Albany College of Pharmacy - Colchester, VT
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Biotechnology/Cytotechnology
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Clinical Laboratory Sciences
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Cytotechnology and Molecular Cytology
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Health Outcomes Research
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Molecular Biosciences
Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences - Pharmaceutical Sciences
Appalachian College of Pharmacy
Belmont University
California Health Sciences University
Cedarville University
Chapman University
East Tennessee State University
Harding University
LECOM - Bradenton
LECOM - Distance Pathway
LECOM - Erie
Manchester University
MCPHS University - Manchester
MCPHS University - Worcestor
Notre Dame of Maryland University
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine
Regis University
Roosevelt University
Samford University
Shenandoah University
South College - TN
St. John Fisher College
Temple University
The University of New England
The University of Tennessee Health Science Center
The University of Texas at Tyler
Thomas Jefferson University
Touro College
Union University
University of Charleston
University of Maryland Eastern Shore
University of Saint Joseph
University of the Sciences
West Coast University
Western New England University
Wingate University

Should a school you are interested in not be on the list, applicants are encouraged to reach out to the school directly to see if they will consider granting an extension.

Thanks,
PharmCAS Team

 

[PharmtoCS]

We still have 3.2 new graduates entering the workforce per job opening expected according to the latest BLS figures. The rate of pharmacists leaving the workforce (voluntarily and involuntarily) appears to be well below that. We would need enrollment to drop by 50-65% before we even begin to head toward equilibrium.

 

[BMBiology]

This is why I believe enrollment will start to drop soon. Take a look at the number of students applying to pharmacy schools: http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

My analysis:

Number of applications (based on the link):

111744 (2009-2010) to 106815 (2010-2011): 4.4% drop
106815 (2010-2011) to 99821 (2011-2012): 6.5% drop
99821 (2011-2012) to 87956 (2012-2013): 12% drop

Even though there is a downward trend, I am going to use the average drop of 7.6% per year to project the number of applications for 2013 to 2015

Projected number of applications: 81,271 (2013-2014), 75,094 (2014-2015)
Assuming each student applied to an average of 5 schools in 2014-2015: 15,018 applicants

There is at least 15,000 first level seats so at best we are at equilibrium (15018 applicants vs. 15000 seats). Therefore, everyone who applied to a pharmacy school is accepted~! I am using conservative numbers. Most likely, the number of seats is already > applicants

 

[PharmtoCS]

There is at least 15,000 first level seats so at best we are at equilibrium (15018 applicants vs. 15000 seats). Therefore, everyone who applied to a pharmacy school is accepted~! I am using conservative numbers. Most likely, the number of seats is already > applicants

It seems like this would be the case given that roughly 37 schools (out of 130 total) seem to have trouble filling their spots. The exception is if the schools accept students that obviously cannot handle the coursework just to collect a year or two of tuition before failing them out.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

Bio--- Even though the number of applicants are dropping, I don't believe that will lower the enrollment. These new schools already have sunk costs. They have already built the buildings. They will see it through to the end. In poker speak, they are "pot-committed". All it will cause is worse and worse students becoming pharmacists.

The only benefit I can see is that it may finally stop the growth of new schools.

Slightly derailing the thread, internet poker went through an INSANE boom from 2003-2008. Then the feds got mad and made sure that it was no longer feasible to make a living through these means. These new recently opened schools will see this all the way through, it makes no sense business wise to quit. It is slightly akin to a law or pharmacy student wanting to quit in their final year, doesn't make sense from an economic view.

Back to the original subject, it's people like "Dr. Jones" that have no business in retail. She will get eaten alive by work demands, metrics and customer service surveys. Maybe she will succeed in a clinical setting, MAYBE, doing that collaborative nonsense and having an obscure contraindication off the top of her head to warn a nurse or physician. But if she believes these people in the first place, then she really has no business being in the workforce in the first place.

 

[pillpharmer14]

2014 grad here.

I went to a school that pushed clinical roles pretty hard and i would say 70% of people graduating think like the author of this post. While the other 30% may not include the smartest are best looking candidates on paper, they at least understand their likely role in healthcare will be dispensing.

 

[MountainPharmD]

OK, fine...here is another saturation post.

Starting this Fall, pharmacy schools will feel the effect of the saturation. A few students have already dropped out. Some students are finally realizing pharmacy is no longer a viable option and they are declining their acceptance. However, there is already a gut of pharmacy students so any drop in enrollment will take some time. I believe the next 5-10 years will be dark age of this profession. Underemployment. Cuts. More work for less pay. Brace yourself.

What goes up must come down. The shortage of the late 90's will soon be countered by the over supply of the late 10's.

I'm sure there are some statistics somewhere on boom and bust cycles. 25 - 30 years seems about right.

 

[CaffeineAddict30]

I have tried to talk to other classmates about what they want to do and it amazes me at how delusional these people are. "I'm gonna do a residency, then get a clinical position." Then I tell them how the majority of pharmacits jobs are in dispensing and then they say " I will NOT do retail!" I'm just like "ok" great at least I don't have to worry about applying for the same job.

 

[SClENCE]

I heard about the "integrated healthcare approach" from EVERY pharmacy school I interviewed at. All this means to be in the real world is giving more flu shots... and even this has nothing to do with integrating with other professions. Maybe offering INR/diabetic monitoring at the "wonderful" minute clinics which probably won't even involve the pharmacist anyways.

 

[SClENCE]

I have tried to talk to other classmates about what they want to do and it amazes me at how delusional these people are. "I'm gonna do a residency, then get a clinical position." Then I tell them how the majority of pharmacits jobs are in dispensing and then they say " I will NOT do retail!" I'm just like "ok" great at least I don't have to worry about applying for the same job.

Around 10/10 pharmacy students I have met said the same things... and my thoughts were exactly the same and I haven't even started class yet. Even the impression that pharmacy schools gave me on interview day was as if retail pharmacy didn't even exist... plus they always corrected me and called it community pharmacy instead.

 

[az101]

Here is the truth - the best way to learn how to run a pharmacy is to work for McDonalds as a shift manager. The only thing pharmacy school does is give you a license, but the practical experience needed is best learned at McDonalds. McDonald's shift management will teach you how to organize employees to be able to run an efficient store. Trust me, if you can master running a McDonalds you can run a big box store pharmacy. Pharmacy at any level is not glamorous, never was and never will be and never meant to be. It is just like McDonalds, people come in - people get served and get them out. Sorry to ruin this authors ego.

 

[confettiflyer]

Here is the truth - the best way to learn how to run a pharmacy is to work for McDonalds as a shift manager. The only thing pharmacy school does is give you a license, but the practical experience needed is best learned at McDonalds. McDonald's shift management will teach you how to organize employees to be able to run an efficient store. Trust me, if you can master running a McDonalds you can run a big box store pharmacy. Pharmacy at any level is not glamorous, never was and never will be and never meant to be. It is just like McDonalds, people come in - people get served and get them out. Sorry to ruin this authors ego.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Fast food places have drive thrus, need to meet state regulations, etc... The only extra thing that has no counterpart is meeting federal regulations/dealing with federal enforcement.

 

[Guilded_Age]

This actually makes a lot of sense. Fast food places have drive thrus, need to meet state regulations, etc... The only extra thing that has no counterpart is meeting federal regulations/dealing with federal enforcement.

Too bad the average Joe would rather just have their hamburger sent right to their door step. Fast food pharmacies aren't the future. Mail order is.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Too bad the average Joe would rather just have their hamburger sent right to their door step. Fast food pharmacies aren't the future. Mail order is.

I disagree, most people I see can't stand mail-order (granted I'm only seeing people who obviously aren't using mail order.) But a lot of people come back after dealing with mail order, the first time their order is sent out late, and they realize that 1) they can't get it at their local store without a new RX from their doctor and 2) they will have to pay cash, because their insurance has already paid at mail-order and won't repay.....that is usually the end of their dealings with mail-order. I've even seen people on cheap generics, whose ins requires they use mail order, and they just pay cash so they can get it in a dependable fashion at their local pharmacy.


Thinking some more about the article, I do feel sorry for this gal. She is going to fall hard when she gets out in the real world. She will probably blame it all on us older pharmacists for our negativity instead of correctly blaming her school. Then again, maybe she'll sell her soul and become a college professor passing on the lies to the generation.

 

[zelman]

This actually makes a lot of sense. Fast food places have drive thrus, need to meet state regulations, etc... The only extra thing that has no counterpart is meeting federal regulations/dealing with federal enforcement.

The FDA is involved with food, too.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

Here is the truth - the best way to learn how to run a pharmacy is to work for McDonalds as a shift manager. The only thing pharmacy school does is give you a license, but the practical experience needed is best learned at McDonalds. McDonald's shift management will teach you how to organize employees to be able to run an efficient store. Trust me, if you can master running a McDonalds you can run a big box store pharmacy. Pharmacy at any level is not glamorous, never was and never will be and never meant to be. It is just like McDonalds, people come in - people get served and get them out. Sorry to ruin this authors ego.

This is a good comparison actually, not sure why these organizations insist on pushing their own little agenda of getting involved in residency and certified with meaningless certifications. Dispensing and verifying will be the name of the game in our lifetime. IMO, BCPS is an abbreviated way of saying bullcr@ps!