Don't Let Carib Admissions Staff Fool You

[laricb]

It's not hard to find if you know what you're looking for.

Exhibit A: Charting outcomes in the match for FMGs
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

See Chart 15 page 22

Of all US Citizen applicants who went to medical school on Grenada (where SGU is located), 534 matched and 258 did not
Dominica (Ross) 532 matched and 438 did not
Saba: 45 matched and 33 did not
St Martin (AUC): 189 matched and 120 did not

Now, I think a couple of these islands have a small med school as well, but the vast, vast majority of those grads are the "big four" ones. You can calculate the percentages yourself. No matter how you slice it, not so good.

post correct numbers grenada SGU was 689 match 361 unmatched And that number was first choice it doesnt include students who matched on there second choice

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[Mr.Happy]

This guy is all over the carib MD forum he failed out or got rejected from a carib school so he goes around different forums lying and crying about carib schools

really? could you point out what lies he made about carib schools? Also, he neither failed out nor was he rejected from a Carib school. Looks like you're the one with lies around here.

 

[Mr.Happy]

post correct numbers grenada SGU was 689 match 361 unmatched And that number was first choice it doesnt include students who matched on there second choice

I wouldn't be surprised if you work for a carib school or if you are a carib grad/student. You seem biased.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

This guy is all over the carib MD forum he failed out or got rejected from a carib school so he goes around different forums lying and crying about carib schools

He graduated from a Carib school with a 220 uslme and didn't match. He tried family and emergency medicine. Didn't fault out or get rejected. Went there cause of low GPA (sub 3.0 and good MCAT 33 I believe)

 

[gyngyn]

post correct numbers grenada SGU was 689 match 361 unmatched And that number was first choice it doesnt include students who matched on there second choice

Though you are correct that the totals for both US and non-US IMG's from Grenada total 689/361 (matched/unmatched), this is the outcome of all Grenada candidates, not just those who didn't get their preferred specialty (or first choice).

 

[Conflagration]

post correct numbers grenada SGU was 689 match 361 unmatched And that number was first choice it doesnt include students who matched on there second choice

That's 1050 total... Which makes a 65.6% match rate.

 

[gyngyn]

That's 1050 total... Which makes a 65.6% match rate.

Sadly, it does not include the students lost to attrition or not allowed to sit for the USMLE.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

really? could you point out what lies he made about carib schools? Also, he neither failed out nor was he rejected from a Carib school. Look

Though you are correct that the totals for both US and non-US IMG's from Grenada total 689/361 (matched/unmatched), this is the outcome of all candidates, not just those who didn't get their preferred specialty (or first choice).

What's the match rate in total then?

How about for the other big 4s?

 

[gyngyn]

What's the match rate in total then?

The percentage of US Seniors from MD schools that found a position in the match was 91.4%.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

The percentage of US Seniors for MD schools that found a position in the match was 91.4%.

That's for all four?

I guess that doesn't include include a lot of things attrition/prelim but good to know.

Thanks.

 

[Mr.Happy]

What's the match rate in total then?

How about for the other big 4s?

SGU is considered to be the best among all Carib MD schools and even it has only a 65% match rate and that's if you don't factor in the high attrition rate. Other schools in the big 4 have lower match rates. For example, I believe the match rate for Ross is just above 50%, not including the high attrition rate.

Of course, with the upcoming residency crunch due to greatly increased US DO and MD grads, I predict that the match rates for the Big 4 Carib schools will go down quite substantially.

 

[Mad Jack]

This guy is all over the carib MD forum he failed out or got rejected from a carib school so he goes around different forums lying and crying about carib schools

Carib schools are pretty awful, that's no lie.

 

[gyngyn]

That's for all four?

I guess that doesn't include include a lot of things attrition/prelim but good to know.

Thanks.

91.4% is the percentage of US Seniors from LCME accredited MD schools that found a position in the match. I dredged it up from Charting Outcomes as a comparison statistic.

One would have to go through island by island and add up the sad stats from the other offshore schools...You can find them on page 22 of the previously cited document.

 

[Conflagration]

That's for all four?

I'll run the numbers. :3

Exhibit A: Charting outcomes in the match for FMGs
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
See Chart 15 page 22
Of all US Citizen applicants who went to medical school on Grenada (where SGU is located), 534 matched and 258 did not
Dominica (Ross) 532 matched and 438 did not
Saba: 45 matched and 33 did not
St Martin (AUC): 189 matched and 120 did not

According to the above:

Grenada- 67.4%.
Dominica- 54.8%.
Saba- 57.7%.
St Martin- 61.2%.

The corrected number that the other poster gave put Grenada's number slightly lower, but there you go.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well, let's also factor in the fact that many students don't ever graduate, and many more are never allowed to sit for the Steps...

 

[midweststudent1]

If people are upset about Caribbean schools now, just wait for another 5-8 yrs----there just won't be very many spots for them. Period. We won't open more spots (nor should we). These are for profit businesses that have little to no ties to communities in America. Legislators aren't going to give a rip about them, and the American schools will rally support around first preference for American schools.

And since the caribbeans are foreign businesses basically, no ones gonna care.....

 

[gyngyn]

The corrected number that the other poster gave put Grenada's number slightly lower, but there you go.

@Raryn was reporting US IMG's from Grenada, an arguably better statistic for this thread...

 

[Mr.Happy]

Also keep in mind that these are the "Big 4" schools, the creme da la creme of all Caribbean medical schools. The match rates for Spartan, Atlantic, Windsor, St James etc. is a lot lower.

 

[Raryn]

I'll run the numbers. :3



According to the above:

Grenada- 67.4%.
Dominica- 54.8%.
Saba- 57.7%.
St Martin- 61.2%.

The corrected number that the other poster gave put Grenada's number slightly lower, but there you go.

I only counted US citizen grads (i.e. "US-IMGs"). You can add up the non-US citizen grads of carib schools from the same page if you want.

 

[Mad Jack]

If people are upset about Caribbean schools now, just wait for another 5-8 yrs----there just won't be very many spots for them. Period. We won't open more spots (nor should we). These are for profit businesses that have little to no ties to communities in America. Legislators aren't going to give a rip about them, and the American schools will rally support around first preference for American schools.

And since the caribbeans are foreign businesses basically, no ones gonna care.....

Except for the fact that they are owned by U.S. corporations, and the citizens that attend them are U.S. citizens with federally guaranteed federal loans that the government will have to pay should they default.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

No! This is the percentage of US Seniors from LCME accredited MD schools that found a position in the match. I dredged it up from Charting Outcomes as a comparison statistic.

One would have to go through island by island and add up the sad stats from the other offshore schools...You can find them on page 22 of the previously cited document.

Thanks

I'll run the numbers. :3



According to the above:

Grenada- 67.4%.
Dominica- 54.8%.
Saba- 57.7%.
St Martin- 61.2%.

The corrected number that the other poster gave put Grenada's number slightly lower, but there you go.

Thanks

Sgu on there website claims they are number one residency provider with 760 spots per year and 98 percent pass with 227 mean score. So misleading...

 

[gyngyn]

Sgu on there website claims they are number one residency provider with 760 spots per year and 98 percent pass with 227 mean score. So misleading...

It would be more true to say that they had the equivalent of 3 entire classes (at an average size US medical school) of unmatched applicants in a single cycle.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

It would be more true to say that they had the equivalent of 3 entire classes (at an average size US medical school) of unmatched applicants in a single cycle.

AUC writes this :

Over the last four years (2010-2013), the residency attainment rate for first-time, eligible graduates, who actively sought residency has averaged 87%. Total graduate residency attainment rate through three residency cycles was 87% (for students who graduated July 1, 2009 - June 30, 2010).
Over 250 graduates of American University of the Caribbean obtained residency appointments in the 2014 Match, the vast majority through the National Registry Match Program. AUC graduates obtained positions in primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics) as well as anesthesiology, emergency medicine, neurology, pathology, radiology, and other competitive specialties.


How are they lying? (Got a rep coming to my school. Need to call out all the bs)

 

[FutureOncologist]

Lol. Elite schools would never bring in these people. Maybe low tier colleges or something like that.


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This isn't a tier-system undergraduate problem. It's a clueless premed advisory problem.

I swear everything has a tier system with you premeds.

 

[Seatown1]

I'd like to hear from some of you about why Caribbean schools are so bad. I am certainly a skeptic, but I know several people who have gone to the Caribbean, found residency matches in the U.S. (usually in Internal Medicine) and are doing just fine. I know that generally, one should not consider schools other than St. George's or Ross. I've heard their drop out rates are pretty high but that can be attributed to the lower quality of students who attend. Could somebody (or a few of you) dive into some of the reasons for ignoring them completely?

The reason I am asking is because if I don't gain admission into a U.S. M.D. program, I am looking at the D.O degree or Caribbean M.D. as backup options. I have heard that the former is the better option, especially as of late. It is easier to specialize and gain placement into better residency programs. But is the Caribbean really that bad? Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Conflagration]

The reason I am asking is because if I don't gain admission into a U.S. M.D. program, I am looking at the D.O degree or Caribbean M.D. as backup options. I have heard that the former is the better option, especially as of late. It is easier to specialize and gain placement into better residency programs. But is the Caribbean really that bad? Thanks in advance for your responses.

Well, an issue that your acquaintances didn't have to face is the merger of residencies. There's talk between the MD and DO groups to have their residencies in the same pool, which would edge out a lot of spots that Caribbean graduates would try to get.

The attrition rate is downright scary, and even when people make it through the four years, they still aren't guaranteed any residency, as shown by the match rates above.

Going offshore for medical school makes you a foreign medical graduate, which carries its own stigma.

So, the combination of those factors, and the fact that the overwhelming majority are taking out loans to cover all this, is why it's generally suggested to keep trying for American schools if you want to practice here.

DO schools offer grade replacement, and a science GPA without math, if that would help your numbers. It's a lot easier to get back on your feet if your GPA's in the dirt and you still get a solid chance of getting into pretty much any specialty you want.

 

[jakeislove]

He graduated from a Carib school with a 220 uslme and didn't match. He tried family and emergency medicine. Didn't fault out or get rejected. Went there cause of low GPA (sub 3.0 and good MCAT 33 I believe)

SJ is a Carib grad?!

 

[medguy24]

AUC writes this :

Over the last four years (2010-2013), the residency attainment rate for first-time, eligible graduates, who actively sought residency has averaged 87%. Total graduate residency attainment rate through three residency cycles was 87% (for students who graduated July 1, 2009 - June 30, 2010).
Over 250 graduates of American University of the Caribbean obtained residency appointments in the 2014 Match, the vast majority through the National Registry Match Program. AUC graduates obtained positions in primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics) as well as anesthesiology, emergency medicine, neurology, pathology, radiology, and other competitive specialties.


How are they lying? (Got a rep coming to my school. Need to call out all the bs).

If also like to know this.

 

[JPA178]

I personally believe that Caribbean schools aren't worth the hassle or the stigma. If you're a US Citizen and don't have citizenship in another country (where you might receive special consideration to study medicine in that country), there are only 2 programs I'd recommend outside the US:

1. University of Queensland-Ochsner
2. St. George's, University of London - International MBBS4

Both schools have a great international reputation, and you get to do your MS3/MS4 clinical rotations in a US hospital. The Queensland program sends you to Ochsner, which is the #1 hospital in Louisiana and also has strong residency programs. For both programs, I believe you are able to apply for the match at the same time as US med students. The only downside to these two programs is that they are quite expensive. St. George's-UL is comparable to a US private school, although the cost of living in London is high.

Going to med school in the UK or Australia doesn't carry the stigma of going to med school in the Caribbean. Plus, even though the weather is nice in the Caribbean, I feel that your quality of life will be a lot higher in the UK/Australia.

 

[Kochanie]

This isn't a tier-system undergraduate problem. It's a clueless premed advisory problem.

I swear everything has a tier system with you premeds.

But wouldn't the top tiers/schools with lots of premeds be more aware? My premed advisers are against the Carribean and pro-DO so I'm biased.

 

[Mad Jack]

Enough SGU students don't match every year to replace all of the physicians that die from suicide.

Lol. Elite schools would never bring in these people. Maybe low tier colleges or something like that.


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You'd be surprised. Carib degrees actually appeal pretty strongly to the group of people that were so caught up with prestige that they went to an Ivy, but then lacked the grades to gain admission to a U.S. MD school and view having a DO as being beneath them.

 

[Goro]

Just because people win the Lotto doesn't mean that we should all run out and by tickets.

Here's the answer in a nutshell:

Massive attrition rates
Poor match rates.

Thus, the odds of you getting into a residency program is poor. You can do better than these diploma mills.

I'd like to hear from some of you about why Caribbean schools are so bad. I am certainly a skeptic, but I know several people who have gone to the Caribbean, found residency matches in the U.S. (usually in Internal Medicine) and are doing just fine. I know that generally, one should not consider schools other than St. George's or Ross. I've heard their drop out rates are pretty high but that can be attributed to the lower quality of students who attend. Could somebody (or a few of you) dive into some of the reasons for ignoring them completely?

The reason I am asking is because if I don't gain admission into a U.S. M.D. program, I am looking at the D.O degree or Caribbean M.D. as backup options. I have heard that the former is the better option, especially as of late. It is easier to specialize and gain placement into better residency programs. But is the Caribbean really that bad? Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Mad Jack]

I personally believe that Caribbean schools aren't worth the hassle or the stigma. If you're a US Citizen and don't have citizenship in another country (where you might receive special consideration to study medicine in that country), there are only 2 programs I'd recommend outside the US:

1. University of Queensland-Ochsner
2. St. George's, University of London - International MBBS4

Both schools have a great international reputation, and you get to do your MS3/MS4 clinical rotations in a US hospital. The Queensland program sends you to Ochsner, which is the #1 hospital in Louisiana and also has strong residency programs. For both programs, I believe you are able to apply for the match at the same time as US med students. The only downside to these two programs is that they are quite expensive. St. George's-UL is comparable to a US private school, although the cost of living in London is high.

Going to med school in the UK or Australia doesn't carry the stigma of going to med school in the Caribbean. Plus, even though the weather is nice in the Caribbean, I feel that your quality of life will be a lot higher in the UK/Australia.

I'd also add Duke-NUS, Weill-Cornell in Qatar, and Sackler in Israel to that list.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

SJ is a Carib grad?!

skip junior is yes

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

If also like to know this..

@gyngyn @Goro how can AUC say those things?

quoted here:

Over the last four years (2010-2013), the residency attainment rate for first-time, eligible graduates, who actively sought residency has averaged 87%. Total graduate residency attainment rate through three residency cycles was 87% (for students who graduated July 1, 2009 - June 30, 2010).
Over 250 graduates of American University of the Caribbean obtained residency appointments in the 2014 Match, the vast majority through the National Registry Match Program. AUC graduates obtained positions in primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics) as well as anesthesiology, emergency medicine, neurology, pathology, radiology, and other competitive specialties. - See more at: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...s-staff-fool-you.1101628/page-2#post-15777595

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn @Goro how can AUC say those things?

quoted here:

Over the last four years (2010-2013), the residency attainment rate for first-time, eligible graduates, who actively sought residency has averaged 87%. Total graduate residency attainment rate through three residency cycles was 87% (for students who graduated July 1, 2009 - June 30, 2010).
Over 250 graduates of American University of the Caribbean obtained residency appointments in the 2014 Match, the vast majority through the National Registry Match Program. AUC graduates obtained positions in primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics) as well as anesthesiology, emergency medicine, neurology, pathology, radiology, and other competitive specialties. - See more at: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...s-staff-fool-you.1101628/page-2#post-15777595

As they not accredited by the LCME, their data is neither reviewed nor checked for accuracy.
It is also possible that they are including past grads and those who found training in other countries or any combination of chicanery to come up with these numbers.

 

[Goro]

It's called "lying".

Y'know, like what politicians do?

@gyngyn @Goro how can AUC say those things?

quoted here:

Over the last four years (2010-2013), the residency attainment rate for first-time, eligible graduates, who actively sought residency has averaged 87%. Total graduate residency attainment rate through three residency cycles was 87% (for students who graduated July 1, 2009 - June 30, 2010).
Over 250 graduates of American University of the Caribbean obtained residency appointments in the 2014 Match, the vast majority through the National Registry Match Program. AUC graduates obtained positions in primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics) as well as anesthesiology, emergency medicine, neurology, pathology, radiology, and other competitive specialties. - See more at: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...s-staff-fool-you.1101628/page-2#post-15777595

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

As they not accredited by the LCME, their data is neither reviewed nor checked for accuracy.
It is also possible that they are including past grads and those who found training in other countries or any combination of chicanery to come up with these numbers.

It's called "lying".

Y'know, like what politicians do?

Ahh I didn't know they could just flat out lie like that. Why hasn't there been a lawsuit about this?

Thank for the replies!!! When this rep comes to my school he won't know what hit him. (and this will help me convince friends not to go there)

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You'd be surprised. Carib degrees actually appeal pretty strongly to the group of people that were so caught up with prestige that they went to an Ivy, but then lacked the grades to gain admission to a U.S. MD school and view having a DO as being beneath them.

Yup, at my top 20 undergrad they had the SGU and Ross admissions reps come give their spiel. Most of the pre-meds I knew had literally never heard of DO.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Why hasn't there been a lawsuit about this?

From whom? On what grounds?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

From whom? On what grounds?

False/misleading advertising.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

False/misleading advertising.

Would require a damaged party and the evidence to build a convincing case. Plus these schools are under the authority of different governments; I have no idea what if any obligation they would have to provide records or cooperate with an American court.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Would require a damaged party and the evidence to build a convincing case. Plus these schools are under the authority of different governments; I have no idea what if any obligation they would have to provide records or cooperate with an American court.

hmmm they receive federal loans though? Does the affect things? Damaged party is someone who couldn't get a residency???

 

[gyngyn]

Would require a damaged party and the evidence to build a convincing case. Plus these schools are under the authority of different governments; I have no idea what if any obligation they would have to provide records or cooperate with an American court.

The US government could sue for all the defaulted student loans.
Of course it would be more expeditious to just quit guaranteeing the loans!

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

The US government could sue for all the defaulted student loans.

Perfect! Quick someone call a lawyer.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Of course it would be more expeditious to just quit guaranteeing the loans!

That's what I wish would happen.

Unfortunately the government continues to classify loans as an asset, despite the fact that only about half of all loans out there are actually getting paid back:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/joel...ent-loan-debta-federal-toxic-asset-1412204612

 

[Mr.Happy]

My organic chem lab TA from my undergrad is a very smart fella and I have no doubt he could have got into a DO school if he wanted to but he decided to join SGU instead because I'm assuming he thought the DO title was shameful. He didn't get into any US MD schools. Ridiculous!

I met another pre-med who's joining IAU school of medicine in Jan 2015 because he'd rather get an MD than a DO. He knows all the cons about Caribbean med schools but he told me his game plan is to work super hard and receive outstanding Step 1 and 2 scores, to the point where residency PDs have to take him. He said he's confident he can get 260+ though I don't know how he can be so confident.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I met another pre-med who's joining IAU school of medicine in Jan 2015 because he'd rather get an MD than a DO. He knows all the cons about Caribbean med schools but he told me his game plan is to work super hard and receive outstanding Step 1 and 2 scores, to the point where residency PDs have to take him. He said he's confident he can get 260+ though I don't know how he can be so confident.

It's stupidity and hubris. Also doesn't matter what your step scores are if programs throw your application in the trash without ever looking at it.

 

[Mad Jack]

The US government could sue for all the defaulted student loans.
Of course it would be more expeditious to just quit guaranteeing the loans!

There's been some movement in that direction in Congress. The only reason Carib schools can currently receive federal funding is that they had loopholes in the law for funding foreign medical training created specifically for them. If those loopholes were closed, they would essentially lose their entire U.S. market.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

There's been some movement in that direction in Congress. The only reason Carib schools can currently receive federal funding is that they had loopholes in the law for funding foreign medical training created specifically for them. If those loopholes were closed, they would essentially lose their entire U.S. market.

The for profit colleges (DeVry) have a pretty powerful lobbying presence. Would be shocked to see it actually happen.