Dr. Stead's PA to MD Bridging proposal.

[travoltage]

the whole idea of a PA bridging to an MD makes me sick. so many students are denied each year who dream of becoming MD's and now for someone to propose PA's to get fast track MD degrees is ludacris. yes, it might not mean the same, to the general public it will, they wont be able to tell any differently. PA is a PA, not an MD, period.

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[foreverLaur]

Given the intense competition for spots in medical school, I think it would be absurd to begin the race even earlier than we already do (ie - high school). Shall we now choose our future doctors based on their grades in freshman geometry? Should sophomores in high school start doing MCAT prep at 15 or 16yo?

Bad idea.

The processor currently in place isn't guaranteed. You have to have high grades and a high MCAT score to continue on to the medical school process.

Additionally, these schools accept regular 4 year college graduates into their traditional MD program.

I don't see any harm in completing a bachelors degree in 2 years instead of the typical 4. I have a two friends in medical school who did the traditional processor, but completed their BS in 2.5 years on their own. Should we shun them too?

 

[foreverLaur]

I have no idea where the "shunning" came in. The question was whether we should integrate undergraduate and medical education into a single program, ala the integrated BS/MD program. My point was that such a system would require that we judge who will be the best candidate based on their high school record. In my mind, that's silly.

But here, you're talking about changing the structure of undergraduate education, instead of medical education. If you want to shorten the time to a Bachelor's Degree, that would go against a century of tradition in liberal education, and would be an even more enormous feat than changing the entrance requirements to medical school.

A Bachelors in 5 semesters? 120 credits, that works out to 24 credits a semester, or 8 classes (6 with labs). Every semester.

That doesn't sound like any way I would have wanted to spend my undergraduate years.

They did two years of post-secondary (junior & senior years of high school) so they came in with around 45 credit hours already.

To some extend, you are judging who would make the best doctors while in high school, but not completely. I think all BS/MD programs should just automatically admit students. I think students should be required to have at least X.XX GPA with at least a B- or above in each prerequisite course, for example. They should also need to score a minimum score on the MCAT. If they don't, they can apply with everybody else for admission to the MD program or if they change their mind, continue getting a normal bachelors degree, since the BS portion is done at a typical university anyways.

I was admitted to NEOUCOM's BS/MD 6-year program along with two of my good friends. I chose against it and they went ahead and did it. I wasn't 100% sure medicine was for me. I sorta now regret it as they are a 1st year med student and a 3rd year med student and I am a junior in college

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I don't see any harm in completing a bachelors degree in 2 years instead of the typical 4.

Maturity.
Proper social skills development.
Life experience.

etc.

Most kids coming out of college at 20-21 are ill-equipped to really deal with the rigors of medical school, what makes you think taking 2 YEARS of time away from them will do anything but cause more problems?

-t

 

[fab4fan]

Maturity.
Proper social skills development.
Life experience.

etc.

Most kids coming out of college at 20-21 are ill-equipped to really deal with the rigors of medical school, what makes you think taking 2 YEARS of time away from them will do anything but cause more problems?

-t

There is a lot to be said for maturity and life experience. There's more to caring for pts. than just the technical aspects. (Note: Before anyone goes off in a self-defensive huff, this comment is not directed at anyone in particular. It's just an observation. Based on, you know, life experience.)

 

[foreverLaur]

If you'd like me to give you their names and contact information, you are more than welcomed to contact them.

Find me some proof that people doing their bachelors in 2 years and then doing a 4 year MD are not as good of doctors as those doing a 4 year bachelors degree and then a 4 year MD program and we'll talk.

I'm from Akron, OH so it shouldn't be that big of a surprise that I know people who did the NEOUCOM program seeing as how it isn't that far away from me.

True, not everyone is ready to enter the "real" word at 20-21 but those same people generally aren't ready to enter the real world at 21-22 either. I know plenty of people who aren't ready to enter the real world many years after that.

If someone feels they are ready and medical school admissions committees feel they ar ready as seniors in high school - go for it. They are reevaluated upon graduating with their BS before beginning their MD program as well. Some people who start out in the BS/MD 6 year program continue on to get 4 year bachelor degrees because they don't feel ready to enter medical school.

I know two people currently in the BS/MD program at NEOUCOM and one other person who completed a regular bachelors degree herself in 5 semesters and is now in the traditional MD program at NEOUCOM.

Not everyone can successfully handle such things. Some can and do quite well at it. They shouldn't be held back if they truly are ready.

 

[MedicalMilf]

the whole idea of a PA bridging to an MD makes me sick. so many students are denied each year who dream of becoming MD's and now for someone to propose PA's to get fast track MD degrees is ludacris. yes, it might not mean the same, to the general public it will, they wont be able to tell any differently. PA is a PA, not an MD, period.

You kind of sound like there is some genitalia measuring contest going on and as some physician-esque or wannabe or soontobe or whatever you are-type, you are feeling slighted that medical school won't make you the winner every time.

 

[MedicalMilf]

Forever--seriously...


Your Bachelor's wasn't in English. . . was it?

 

[foreverLaur]

Forever--seriously...


Your Bachelor's wasn't in English. . . was it?

Again - not seeing the problem with my English? If there is a problem beyond using Internet slang (which includes disregard to grammar) then please let me know. My editor has never mentioned a problem with my English for the stories I wrote for the university paper.

 

[crashcart]

My editor has never mentioned a problem with my English for the stories I wrote for the university paper.

I just found this board, but I have to say, I'm a fan of your posts. Pure comedy. Keep 'em coming I say. LMAO. BTW, I think it's cute that you think that writing for the university paper is a big achievement.

Crash

 

[Taurus]

You guys are being too harsh on her. Her writing is fine.

Her ideas though show her inexperience and why she is a pre-med. I think she needs to do more listening than talking.

 

[fab4fan]

Taurus, she plans to be a CRNA. Care to retract your generosity regarding her writing skills?

 

[Taurus]

That's the thing. She doesn't know what she wants to be. One day, it's doc. The next, a PA.

 

[JRJ26]

she actually reminds me of my old self, and I'm sure other pre-health students, where we have a romanticized image of what health care is. Working in an ER has definitely changed that for me, .

I think on the one hand, it's great that she has so many questions, but she does try to present her responses to certain questions as authoritative, then comes up with a "school" or "good friend" that she contacted to get this information. It's also amusing that in the span of 2-3 months, she's been interested in med school, accelerated BSN, direct entry MSN, NP, PA, CRNA, PhD in neuroscience. She's also apparently worked in the admissions offices of a business school and a med school... That tells me that she has an interest in health care, but needs to do some in depth research, shadowing, whatever to figure out exactly what she wants to become. Also, I personally wouldn't debate with current nurses, doctors, PAs, whatever over what their jobs entail, b/c they would know better than me, no matter what someone told me or "what the school said".

 

[Febrifuge]

As my Uncle Mike told me, way back when, "you need to get barfed on at least twice before you have a clue about health care." He was expressing his approval of what was then my new ER Tech job, as a way to figure out where I wanted to wind up.

The only way to know where one fits is to try different stuff out. Anything else is really just balderdash and moonshine.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*Mod Note: Let's keep this discussion on track*

As for the age/experience thing....I think differences can manifest in the nuances of the work, not the technical aspects. It isn't that it SHOULDN'T be done, but that there *can* be a difference. When I was in the business world one of the biggest issues I saw with younger associates and team members isn't that they weren't on the ball technically, but they didn't see/recognize the nuances of the work. They just seemed to miss more things, mainly in regard to peer relationships and client relationships (both perceived and actual). I don't question the education, but I question cutting down on allowing a person more time to grow as a person and find themselves before they turn their attention on others.

-t

 

[13deadflies]

I just have one question. Okay, that's a lie.

I just have one question that I will post at this time.

hgmmm (throat clearing)...Why do some of you feel such a strong opposition towards some PAs opting for the chance to become doctors, MD or DO, and the rewarding of their time, experience, and education by allowing them a so called fast track into a med program?

...and Northern, I appreciate your approach towards this touchy subject. Well, for the most part anyway.

 

[core0]

I just have one question. Okay, that's a lie.

I just have one question that I will post at this time.

hgmmm (throat clearing)...Why do some of you feel such a strong opposition towards some PAs opting for the chance to become doctors, MD or DO, and the rewarding of their time, experience, and education by allowing them a so called fast track into a med program?

...and Northern, I appreciate your approach towards this touchy subject. Well, for the most part anyway.

I'll give it from the PA perspective. Its the same reason that PA schools don't give FMGs credit for their medical education. Medical school like PA school trains to a certain standard. For the most part all the students are educated in a way that covers material that allows them to pass certain tests and produces a consistent product. There is no consistent way for a medical school to evaluate life experience. Therefore there is no way to ensure that the student is not missing content that would adversely affect their practice of medicine.

In the PA world giving credit for FMG experience was tried and it was an unmitigated disaster.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[OnPump]

agree w/ Dave C. in spirit- if we PAs would not want that for our profession, we shouldn't wish it on another. However (correct me if I'm off, DC) the FMGs wanted to test out with the PANCE whereas this bridge abbreviates presumed redundancies in the educational process.

Again, in spirit, I agree that the proven standard is worth alot...for all professions.

And I am aware of the planned increase in med school enrollment.

However I (as a PA, which colors my judgment) find the concept of compressing the clinical component appealling for a few reasons-

-the PA-MD bridge students are nontrad and therefore fit a different profile- family, mortgage, kids etc, different than the 22 yo recent undergrad
-there will likely be a good # of bridge students willing to fill a NHSC type program to serve in PC for a term after completing residency. This is fraught with restricitve qualtiies that turns many PAs off, but it is an option.


The complications of trying to match from an abbreviated clinical component is clearly a barrier to such a program. If it does happen I don't envision it coming from an established medical education program, but rather a new model or from a more nontrad setting (namely DO).....

....thoughts from someone who really has no desire to "bridge", but rather sees this as a viable solution to a public health problem- the misallocation of providers to primary care settings.

The idea of bridge students ending up in derm and plastics is another ball of wax, no thank you!

 

[True Anomaly]

the whole idea of a PA bridging to an MD makes me sick. so many students are denied each year who dream of becoming MD's and now for someone to propose PA's to get fast track MD degrees is ludacris. yes, it might not mean the same, to the general public it will, they wont be able to tell any differently. PA is a PA, not an MD, period.

I don't think Ludacris has anything to do with proposing PA-MD bridge programs. Last I heard, he makes rap albums.

Sorry, couldn't pass it up.

 

[Moniker]

agree w/ Dave C. in spirit- if we PAs would not want that for our profession, we shouldn't wish it on another. However (correct me if I'm off, DC) the FMGs wanted to test out with the PANCE whereas this bridge abbreviates presumed redundancies in the educational process.

Again, in spirit, I agree that the proven standard is worth alot...for all professions.

And I am aware of the planned increase in med school enrollment.

However I (as a PA, which colors my judgment) find the concept of compressing the clinical component appealling for a few reasons-

-the PA-MD bridge students are nontrad and therefore fit a different profile- family, mortgage, kids etc, different than the 22 yo recent undergrad
-there will likely be a good # of bridge students willing to fill a NHSC type program to serve in PC for a term after completing residency. This is fraught with restricitve qualtiies that turns many PAs off, but it is an option.


The complications of trying to match from an abbreviated clinical component is clearly a barrier to such a program. If it does happen I don't envision it coming from an established medical education program, but rather a new model or from a more nontrad setting (namely DO).....

....thoughts from someone who really has no desire to "bridge", but rather sees this as a viable solution to a public health problem- the misallocation of providers to primary care settings.

The idea of bridge students ending up in derm and plastics is another ball of wax, no thank you!

it's an interesting idea, but likely just another perversion of the MD degree at its heart.

yes primary care is being taken over by midlevels, yes it would be nice to have more doctors in primary care. but i don't think the solution is to compromise the requirements for the same degree that allows one to do whatever they wish. look at the DO's - they came about with the "intent" of emphasizing primary care....but the reality is they want every specialty that MD students do, the only difference holding them back from steering clear of primary care as much as MD students do is probably academic competitiveness for the specialty. i think this "bridging" program (that sounds like another way for non-MD's to get their foot in the MD door) would probably end up going that way as well. the answer to "how do we get doctors into primary care" is not "give the PA's MD's".

 

[Taurus]

If PA's and NP's wanted to fill the primary care gap, there's no need to do anything more. They have sufficient privileges to do so right now. Instead, I see it as a red herring argument used to disguise their real goal -- to get into the specialties. After 40 years, even the DO's have an incredibly hard time getting the good specialties. To give you an idea, resident told me that out of 800 or so cards fellowships a year only 30 go to DO's. I honestly don't know why these PA's and NP's are looking for shortcuts. They'll just end up in some tiny town in the middle of nowhere. If you want a good shot at something decent, you'll have to start from the beginning as everyone else who goes to medical school.

 

[LizUMD]

If PA's and NP's wanted to fill the primary care gap, there's no need to do anything more. They have sufficient privileges to do so right now. Instead, I see it as a red herring argument used to disguise their real goal -- to get into the specialties. After 40 years, even the DO's have an incredibly hard time getting the good specialties. To give you an idea, resident told me that out of 800 or so cards fellowships a year only 30 go to DO's. I honestly don't know why these PA's and NP's are looking for shortcuts. They'll just end up in some tiny town in the middle of nowhere. If you want a good shot at something decent, you'll have to start from the beginning as everyone else who goes to medical school.

Well if the statistics are to be trusted and D.O.'s are about 5% of the current physician population... 5% of 800 would amount to 40 slots. If 30 D.O.s are getting in, that's pretty close to proportional. Also, did your figure include the osteopathic cardiology programs?

What really confuses me, though, is why you are bringing osteopaths into the discussion at all... Not quite sure what analogy you are drawing. What commonality are you trying to draw between D.O.s and the midlevels who would seek shortcut bridge degrees? You implied in the last post that D.O.s came about with the promise of filling gaps in primary care but surely you do realize that they date back to the 1800's...

 

[Moniker]

Well if the statistics are to be trusted and D.O.'s are about 5% of the current physician population... 5% of 800 would amount to 40 slots. If 30 D.O.s are getting in, that's pretty close to proportional. Also, did your figure include the osteopathic cardiology programs?

What really confuses me, though, is why you are bringing osteopaths into the discussion at all... Not quite sure what analogy you are drawing. What commonality are you trying to draw between D.O.s and the midlevels who would seek shortcut bridge degrees? You implied in the last post that D.O.s came about with the promise of filling gaps in primary care but surely you do realize that they date back to the 1800's...

their emphasis is/was supposedly on primary care. however long they've been around is irrelevent. i don't particularly care what DO's do, but taurus is right, an easy way to get what you want is to claim it's a way to fill a need. i mean the DO's have the classic example of creating a professional degree that was initially designed to be distinct from the MD, was lobbied and tailored over the years to look as close to an MD as possible without actually being an MD (due to the "distinct" philosophy) in order to convince everyone that "since a DO's education/training looks exactly like an MD's, we should have the same practice rights". I mean i have nothing against DO's, but what's the point? if you do the same thing, why aren't we all the same degree? why why why? i'm worried its for the wrong reasons (overflow of MD applicants finally got their numbers together in an alternate (DO) path, gained lobbying strength and numbers, and pushed through a situation that is just plain confusing). honestly, doesn't it seem like that's what happened? is that the right reason to give practice rights? similarly, in our current situation, are financial pressures from jerk insurance companies and malpractice and lobbying power from less trained midlevels really the right reason to (probably permanently) push out primary care physicians? how far are we going to let this go?

hes additionally right in saying if they want to do primary care, why would they need an MD. I would even extend that to say, in my opinion MD's should be still be providing much of primary care, and we should not be pushed out by midlevels and insurance companies. its startling how much people are willing to let financial pressures decide who takes care of us.

 

[primadonna22274]

I dunno about that Taurus. There's still a really big need for physicians in primary care. I've been a primary care PA most of my career and am back in it now after a year and a half in ER. Despite 7 going on 8 years of progressively more autonomous practice, and learning a LOT, I continually hit the limits of my knowledge. I rely on my supervising physicians to fill in the gaps and help me out. I am very strongly opposed to "independent practice" (ie. no physician consultation, but that doesn't rule out distance methods for remote/rural practices) for PAs and NPs because I know how hard it is to practice these days and how much you have to know. Still, I love primary care. I like following patients and knowing what happens longitudinally. I don't like episodic care. There's definitely an appeal to specialty practice (to be expert at something) but realistically speaking if I become a physician I will more than likely reenter as a primary care physician. Fairly silly financially speaking but I'm young enough it would be OK.

If PA's and NP's wanted to fill the primary care gap, there's no need to do anything more. They have sufficient privileges to do so right now. Instead, I see it as a red herring argument used to disguise their real goal -- to get into the specialties. After 40 years, even the DO's have an incredibly hard time getting the good specialties. To give you an idea, resident told me that out of 800 or so cards fellowships a year only 30 go to DO's. I honestly don't know why these PA's and NP's are looking for shortcuts. They'll just end up in some tiny town in the middle of nowhere. If you want a good shot at something decent, you'll have to start from the beginning as everyone else who goes to medical school.

 

[Taurus]

What commonality are you trying to draw between D.O.s and the midlevels who would seek shortcut bridge degrees?

The point I am making is that there's a huge bias out there if you don't go the traditional American MD route. Not all medical degrees are "equal". Look around and see how many DO's you see in the really competitive fields like cards, derm, ENT, ortho, plastics, rads, etc. Is it because DO's don't want to get into these fields? Uh, no. It's because the residency directors will rank an applicant from a good MD school over a DO or Carib MD applicant. Sure, it's still possible that someone from a DO or Carib MD school matching into a competitive specialty or program, but it's far, far more difficult. So if PA's or NP's want some bridging program to a medical degree, I think that they will put themselves at a disadvantage. You still won't be able to get into the competitive specialties.

I'll further elaborate on my cards example. There are MD's and DO's in the internal medicine program at the hospital I am affiliated with. Even though both groups go through the same internal medicnie training, the MD's have much better matching than the DO's. There's a reason why people keep saying MD > DO > Carib MD.

 

[fab4fan]

If PA's and NP's wanted to fill the primary care gap, there's no need to do anything more. They have sufficient privileges to do so right now. Instead, I see it as a red herring argument used to disguise their real goal -- to get into the specialties. After 40 years, even the DO's have an incredibly hard time getting the good specialties. To give you an idea, resident told me that out of 800 or so cards fellowships a year only 30 go to DO's. I honestly don't know why these PA's and NP's are looking for shortcuts. They'll just end up in some tiny town in the middle of nowhere. If you want a good shot at something decent, you'll have to start from the beginning as everyone else who goes to medical school.

Hmmm. I wonder why there are so many DO cardios in my area, then. It's not an urban location.

 

[deleted6669]

hmmm, the chiefs in the depts of neurology, cardiology, em, and physical medicine at my facility are all DO's and it is an urban location and it's not a DO hospital.....

 

[Taurus]

hmmm, the chiefs in the depts of neurology, cardiology, em, and physical medicine at my facility are all DO's and it is an urban location and it's not a DO hospital.....

I bet they had phenomenal board scores and resumes.

As I said, it's not impossible for a DO to get into one of the more competitive fields, but it's a lot more difficult for them. Just compare the match lists of the different schools and you'll see a difference.

 

[milan1320]

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/medicine/cardiology/documents/currentfellows2007-2008_update.pdf

i counted 2 D.O there and if you look at their recently graduated fellows, there are D.O there as well. Man I love it how people can sacrifice so much to go to school for 8 years, do at least a 3 year residency for a job in which they will spend their life helping people and all you do is get craped on night and day on sdn. For all you P.A's that are thinking about going to med school seriously do your self a huge favor and go to an MD school, that way no one can question your acomplishments. you wont have people constintely telling you how you are not going to be a "real doctor" and how you will always be a second class citizen at hospitals.

 

[Moniker]

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/medicine/cardiology/documents/currentfellows2007-2008_update.pdf

i counted 2 D.O there and if you look at their recently graduated fellows, there are D.O there as well. Man I love it how people can sacrifice so much to go to school for 8 years, do at least a 3 year residency for a job in which they will spend their life helping people and all you do is get craped on night and day on sdn. For all you P.A's that are thinking about going to med school seriously do your self a huge favor and go to an MD school, that way no one can question your acomplishments. you wont have people constintely telling you how you are not going to be a "real doctor" and how you will always be a second class citizen at hospitals.

jeeeeez, relax. the whole point of bringing up DO's was to point out that intention (primary care emphasis) going in can quickly change...once a person gets their foot in the door it'd be hard to hold them accountable for what they claimed was the reason they're there (to serve in primary care). it's hard to tell people with the same degree...."sorry, you have to go into primary care". next thing you know, we've got PA's with different training than MD's who now have MD's, who are competing for our residencies....and who can blame them? i have no problem with any of this....as long as they have to take every step a regular MD does, there should be no short-cuts, no "bridges" (euphemism for short-cut).

it's kind of like the whole OD thing too (optometrists in a few states have successfully lobbied for the right to perform surgery based on the argument of "there aren't enough ophthalmologists out here in rural Nebraska"). just because the current system is producing shortages in physicians doesn't mean we should replace them with less qualified providers, rather than addressing the reason they're gone in the first place.

 

[milan1320]

moniker, sorry if i came across a little harsh that was not my intent! sometimes its just a little annoying that whenever there is a disagrement about degrees or titles some one inevitibly will find a way to say something about the DO degree. Anways I do agree with your points, if you want to go back and get the MD you should have to start over. Im a first year DO student and we have at least 4 PA's in our class, from what I can tell they are all talented individuals, however they all had to start from square one again with no one getting any waived classes.

 

[Moniker]

moniker, sorry if i came across a little harsh that was not my intent! sometimes its just a little annoying that whenever there is a disagrement about degrees or titles some one inevitibly will find a way to say something about the DO degree. Anways I do agree with your points, if you want to go back and get the MD you should have to start over. Im a first year DO student and we have at least 4 PA's in our class, from what I can tell they are all talented individuals, however they all had to start from square one again with no one getting any waived classes.

no problem. you guys do tend to catch a lot of flack on SDN i don't particularly fault you for reacting.

 

[onthego]

i believe there is only one way to become a medical doctor and that is to go to medical school, no shortcuts allowed. end of discussion

 

[Taurus]

I've heard rumors about this, but I guess it's true. The NBME is talking about combining steps 1 & 2. I think it makes a lot of sense. Studying for it will suck even more than step 1.

So this bridge talk is pretty much moot now. No shortcuts.

 

[Moniker]

Terrible idea.

agreed.

 

[dilated]

Terrible idea.

This is going to suck *** for both residencies and applicants. I can only assume they're going to have to put more weight on preclinical grades, which are so unstandardized from school to school it'll be a nightmare. One of the real bonuses to the Step is allowing people from schools with a weak reputation to show they can play with the big boys; that'll be a lot harder without it.

 

[funinthesun]

Thank you for your post! A trained PA attending medical school CAN and WILL run circles around the other students.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

Thank you for your post! A trained PA attending medical school CAN and WILL run circles around the other students.

You realise this thread was two years old before you decided to go all night of the living dead thread on us?

I have to disagree with your assessment, however. Being educated in one discipline does not always mean you will destroy another. Students, being people are highly variable. I have a degree in nursing with several years of acute care and flight experience under my belt. I am currently in a respiratory therapy programme. While my grades are good, I am getting my ass handed to me academically by a 24 year old frat boy who spends more time drinking than hitting the books.

You never know. I assume the same is true of medical school?

 

[deleted6669]

a 24 year old frat boy who spends more time drinking than hitting the books.
You never know. I assume the same is true of medical school?

yup, lots of drunk frat boys with daddy's money going to med school.....
*yes, for those of you with no sense of humor that was a JOKE.

 

[cbrsmurf]

I'm currently in PA school and I find myself wishing that the classes covered every aspect of the topic or would delve in deeper. I realize with the PA program time restraints (15 mo didatic), some sacrifices have to be made. I am considering a MD/DO after PA school, but it would be nice if I didn't have to relearn the same material.

Perhaps they should offer a PA to MD/DO bridge program at schools that offer both professional schools, that way the school knows exactly what education the PA is missing. In many of these types of schools, some of the courses have both PA's and MD students in the same class, learning the exact same material and taking the exact same tests! If PA students are taking the exact same courses WITH MD students and the PA graduates and decides to go to MD school, why should they have to take the same exact course AGAIN?

 

[Cmaj7th]

shouldn't your status say healthcare student?

 

[mig26x]

I still find it offensive when people want to try and shortcut through medical school just because they went to nursing school or PA school. They are THREE different schools, if you want to go to medical school you need to apply like the other 30,000 people that wants to go to med school and do it from day 1. I dont care about your background, you are going to another type of school therefore you should start from the beginning.

And again, I dont have anything against PA's or RN but jumping ahead because they are train in THEIR field??

 

[jbar]

I don't think this idea of "bridging" is realistic. The problem is that there aren't a few whole courses that a PA needs for med school that they can just take. It is that out of every hour lecture there is about 15 minutes of material that is missing, but you can't just give those 15 minutes because they are part of the other 45. Even classes that PAs take with med students aren't really the same because I suspect there is a lot of material that the PA students say "I don't really need to know that" while the med students say "that is going to be on step 1" and therefore they study differently.

The other issue is time. By the time a working PA or RN has decided to go MD, most of them have been working for a few years. So filling in the missing material is even harder as it has been years since they took micro or anatomy. It's not like they are giving the missing 15 minutes a week after the PA portion.

Now I think it's interesting no one talks about going in the other direction. As a fourth year medical student I really don't think there is a single thing that a newly graduated PA student has been taught that I haven't been. So it's interesting that I couldn't drop out of med school now and work as a PA. (Not that I want to leave school, but if I had to for some reason I would have no qualification rather than being able to make $80k a year.) Clearly this doesn't apply to RNs, I couldn't be an RN now since they have a different set of skills.

 

[eddoc03]

About 15 years ago there was a bridge program down in Miami - LCME shut it down. Not, to the best of my knowledge, because students were ill prepared, but because the accreditation standards don't permit advanced standing (unless in good academic standing from another LCME accredited med school, etc. etc.). For an allopathic school to try this now would be a contravention of their standards and why should they bother? Especially if they already have a revenue stream called a PA school?

 

[tncekm]

Take the MCAT, pass all of the USMLE Steps and perform a residency like everyone else, and I'm open to a shortened transition program offered to exceptional PA's. Otherwise, you're calling people MD's who are not MD's.

 

[cbrsmurf]

I don't think this idea of "bridging" is realistic. The problem is that there aren't a few whole courses that a PA needs for med school that they can just take. It is that out of every hour lecture there is about 15 minutes of material that is missing, but you can't just give those 15 minutes because they are part of the other 45. Even classes that PAs take with med students aren't really the same because I suspect there is a lot of material that the PA students say "I don't really need to know that" while the med students say "that is going to be on step 1" and therefore they study differently.

The other issue is time. By the time a working PA or RN has decided to go MD, most of them have been working for a few years. So filling in the missing material is even harder as it has been years since they took micro or anatomy. It's not like they are giving the missing 15 minutes a week after the PA portion.

Now I think it's interesting no one talks about going in the other direction. As a fourth year medical student I really don't think there is a single thing that a newly graduated PA student has been taught that I haven't been. So it's interesting that I couldn't drop out of med school now and work as a PA. (Not that I want to leave school, but if I had to for some reason I would have no qualification rather than being able to make $80k a year.) Clearly this doesn't apply to RNs, I couldn't be an RN now since they have a different set of skills.

Reread the example I just gave in my previous post. Some PA students take the EXACT same courses with the EXACT same tests, materials etc etc with the medical students at schools that offer both a PA and MD program. Why should a PA student not get credit for taking that class?

Let me give a hypothetical. If EMT's, RN's, PA's, MD's and construction workers took Anatomy I together because it was required for their degrees/certification and let's say 1 EMT got an A... in fact, that EMT was the best student in the class and got the highest grade and decided to go to MD school next semester, should that EMT have to take that Anatomy I course again?

 

[jbar]

There is no advanced placement for medical school, mainly because it's too hard to figure out who qualifies for what. What grade do you need from school X to pass out of a class? There are people in my class with PhDs in Biochem, but you know what? They still had to take the biochem test. Sure they didn't have to study nearly as hard as I did, but they still had to go through it. A lot of this has to do with accreditation for medical schools, they have to show that everyone has passed their classes.Even if the school wanted to give advanced placement they couldn't get away with it.

I'm not going to argue about if there are places where PA and MD students sit together in a class, but it's by far the exception rather than the rule. Most places they don't take the same classes together because the MD classes are much more in depth. Furthermore, you can't decided to start med school the next semester. It's a year long process to apply. So in reality most PAs who decide to go MD are at least a year or more out from their classes before they would start MD.

The truth is that there is really no advantage for medical schools to make it easier for people to go. Right now there are many many more qualified people who want to enter medical school then there are spots. So why should med schools jump through hoops when they have lots of people who are willing to do the system as it stands now?

 

[esperRN]

I don't see why you couldn't do this:

if you took the exact same course (you would have to take the course at some point to be eligible), you are eligible to pay for a test that would be comprehensive of all the knowledge one would gain from that class. If you passed with over 90 percent correct (or weight it on the difficulty of questions or on the importance of that knowledge asked in the question) then you can skip that class.

Students then can get out of the class, schools make a little money without hardly spending a dime, and you can be assured that they are knowledgable.

P.S. I only think that PAs should have advances standing since they are the only other profession that get a degree is medicine (the whole scope of it anyway)

 

[esperRN]

Better yet I like some people's idea of decreasing med school tuition, have med school grant a masters in medicine (be a PA), and then you can choose to do a residency and be a MD.