Evidence that medical schools do care about rigor of undergrad?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I'd like to point out that admissions is never zero sum. Even in the rare-to-impossible case where two identical applicants equally impressed the adcom, they aren't competing for only one seat. Rather, schools will adjust and take them both into their class.
While this is obviously semantics about a topic I really don't care about, my point is that subliminally before it even becomes a "tiebreaker" an app reader/adcom/somebody makes a probably subconscious decision about the esteem with which they consider a gpa. In doing so, they could very easily recommend one and not the other based on how they see that gpa. Not that Frank the adcom sits there and says, "Boy I wish I could differentiate these two nearly identical applications aside from the rather noticeable gap in gpa. I suppose I will have todetermine the inflation or deflation of the two gpas and make my decision for this one interview spot."

And saying that both people would get worked in makes it seem like there is a huge difference between the last interviewee and the very next one they would have invited if someone had canceled.

Or the last acceptance, or the last person taken off a ranked wait list and the person who would have been next. Qualified people don't always get accepted and perspectives on grade inflation/deflation or a lack of awareness could definitely play a part.

I do take your point though @Lawper, but I don't necessarily mean identical people otherwise. But even an objective point system either corrects for it or doesn't. The degree to which it does could be the difference. Because every qualified candidate doesn't always get in.

These paragraphs not really withstanding, I don't really care about this topic. I went to a school that isn't relevant enough for anyone to care about. I got A's because I scored 90% or above on things, and I don't know if the tests were easier because the school isn't a powerhouse, but my guess would probably be yes.

I do think it is shortsighted to think that the admissions committee is up til 3 am debating between two applicants. I also think it's shortsighted to think that someone's gain isn't sometimes someone's direct loss in admissions as well.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I have wonderful colleagues who went to Harvard Med, but George W Bush convinced me that their MBA school is worthless.

I am NOT making up the following story.

When I was in grad school, "DA", a Harvard undergrad, came to our lab to do a summer research rotation.

Not once, but twice DA burst into tears when someone moved her ice bucket. Mind you there was no experiment or reagents in the bucket, just ice.

And she used to bitch about timers going off for too long. So my colleagues once set off all the timers in the lab to go off at once.
You are giving me PTSD. The only reason this is surprising is because you say "harvard undergrad", and all of us state school attendees see them as overachievers. I guess the lab really can bring out the stupidest and most "contrived" personalities.
 
Let's please not generalize the personalities of people based solely upon where they went to school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Let's please not generalize the personalities of people based solely upon where they went to school.
You do tend to see different kinds of people at different schools, though.
 
You do tend to see different kinds of people at different schools, though.
Yeah, because schools tend to have a variety of people attending. Shocker
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It'd be pretty easy to place schools along the continuum if they published GPA and MCAT data tables like Wustl, but the bastards mostly hide their GPA info even from their own students!

More info .
 

Attachments

  • Cornell Applied-Accepted Chart.pdf
    89.5 KB · Views: 94
Here's a better link: http://www.career.ucla.edu/Students/Resources-Reports-and-Media/Med-School-Stats
I'll say again that if the school in question produces pre-meds with incredibly high MCAT scores, then I am more willing to swallow the grade inflation. Inversely, if the school in question produces MCAT averages that are only 1 point above the ones produced by middle-tier UCs...(cough*Rice*cough) then something is wrong with the reputation of one or both of those schools.

This is a good point and makes me feel better about my undergrad's b+ curved orgo II classes because at least we do test well
 
Does Cornell screen for the committee

I think they do screen - as in they say "we don't think you'd be a competitive applicant for medical school and strongly advise your to improve X,Y,Z and apply next year", but if you're super gungho about it and want to ignore the recommendation you can still use the committee.
 
Yes but adcoms have institutional data, and they can draw what conclusions they want.

And yes go to the gym! +pissed+

I think what Goro has been getting at is its not really ADCOMs who do much for considering a schools rigor. Its the Deans themselves doing it and making a case for Student X from Northwestern with a 3.2, not the ADCOMs themselves arguing about the school deflation in many cases. That's part of why the influence of a big name isn't as great as what people like elfe wish it was.

It's hard really to have much nuance in a topic like this that has been beaten to death so many times but here are really my key thoughts when it comes down to it.

1) If you want to "quantify" the role an undergrad school plays the example always cited is what Miami gives in their presentation when they talk about their point system. Out of 300 points, 30 is given to rigor and quality of undergrad institution. That is about the same as issues such as diversity of an applicant, and less important than science GPA and MCAT and letters of rec(which I believe are all given 45 points at least each). The question worth asking is how do they evaluate giving out those points for the undergrad quality. Do people who go to CC's for their pre-reqs end up with say 5-10, those at state U's roughly 15, those at top tier schools 20-25 and those at the most grade deflated schools(ie MIT esque) close to 30? We have no idea, that's a complete guess. But either way if we are talking about the additional points given to a JHU or Cornell grad vs a grad from Baylor or U of Arizona there's a good chance it isn't a 30 point difference. Hell it might not even be a 1o-15 point difference. When you consider science GPA and MCAT combined I believe are around 100 points(maybe even more) for Miami's rating system you can see how insignificant that 10-15 point difference can be in the scheme of things. It's literally 4% of the total ADCOMs points system.

2) For more "quantification" Lizzy M has said in the past the absolute most adjustment there school will give for rigor of undergrad is 0.2-0.3. Keep in mind Lizzy M works at a top 20 school if I am correct; those schools are often cited as more likely to care about schools rigor. And the maximum adjustment is probably reserved for special cases; ie a electrical engineer from MIT not just your typical Bio major from a top 20 school like Emory. So when we talk of the majority of med schools that adjustment could easily not be as significant.

3) There is enough documented data out there from Vanderbilt to Cornell to WASHU that those private schools have better acceptance rates into med school than the average applicant. But again, the key point here is certain schools being feeders. UCLA is also a very rigorous top 25 caliber school. It's stats are not nearly as favorable. That's why the discussion in many ways entails those that are known as feeder schools to med schools and have an established track record at certain med schools rather than just the all encompassing term grade deflation which can apply to many schools such as Berekley and UCLA which don't have such favorable success in getting applicants into med school.

I'll also add people talk about screening as if it only pertains to private schools. This happens at a ton of state schools as well. My state school will not consider writing anybody a commitee letter for an MD program unless they have at least a 3.5 or 30 MCAT at the bare minimum(and often times those with better stats than that are told to wait a year).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think they do screen - as in they say "we don't think you'd be a competitive applicant for medical school and strongly advise your to improve X,Y,Z and apply next year", but if you're super gungho about it and want to ignore the recommendation you can still use the committee.
So no. A 62% overall acceptance rate would also suggest a lack of screening.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So no. A 62% overall acceptance rate would also suggest a lack of screening.
Yeah I'm quite surprised at the the figure...for example I know Harvard/Yale don't screen, yet they are at >85% regularly. Perceived prestige difference? Student population difference? Grading policy difference? RANDOM CHANCE???

The world will never know.
 
So no. A 62% overall acceptance rate would also suggest a lack of screening.

This isn't even close to screening. 62% for a top tier private school? There are a number of State U's(and not the UCLA UVA Michigan types) with acceptances rates for their undergrads not far off that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Yeah I'm quite surprised at the the figure...for example I know Harvard/Yale don't screen, yet they are at >85% regularly. Perceived prestige difference? Student population difference? Grading policy difference? RANDOM CHANCE???

The world will never know.
B/c Cornell is so much larger than the rest of the Ivies, notice the sheer number (quantity, not percentage) of sub-3.0s and/or sub 28s applying. Those will drag down the numbers.

Also note that this chart is for non-URM applicants only. I missed that the first time around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
B/c Cornell is so much larger than the rest of the Ivies, notice the sheer number (quantity, not percentage) of sub-3.0s and/or sub 28s applying. Those will drag down the numbers.

Also note that this chart is for non-URM applicants only. I missed that the first time around.
Yeah I was being sarcastic
 
I think its hard to use these pre-med office numbers, because they are often really opaque. Penn State boasts about 70% of its applicants going onto medical school while Penn says 76% of their applicants get into medical school. They seem fairly similar for schools so vastly different in prestige. However, Penn's numbers include nearly all alumni who apply while Penn State does not specify who is included in their percentage. There are way too many unknowns to make a meaningful comparison. It could be that Penn State advises less qualified not to apply at all, it could be that Penn advises their applicants to apply too top heavy, or it could be validating my choice to go to a state school over an ivy.... I don't know
 
They seem fairly similar for schools so vastly different in prestige.
Which is completely logical? People at both schools will get into med schools, but the caliber of those schools is probably where the difference lies. The only confounding factor is the screening part. Including alums is fine since it still concerns the undergrad institution. Some information is better than no information. The fact that schools even have these statistics is telling – it means there are dedicated resources for premeds and probably the existence of a committee, which is far more than most schools in the country have.
 
Yeah, because schools tend to have a variety of people attending. Shocker
That's not what I meant.

Different kinds of schools attract different student bodies.
 
That's not what I meant.

Different schools attract different student bodies.
Ok maybe I should stop with the overt sarcasm because it hasn't been working properly... *grumble*

And those different student bodies still have a variety of people. The characteristics of those student bodies are still incredibly diverse, and to extrapolate certain attributes (besides some obvious ones like SES, test scores) upon the whole school population is so wrong
 
Ok maybe I should stop with the overt sarcasm because it hasn't been working properly... *grumble*

And those different student bodies still have a variety of people. The characteristics of those student bodies are still incredibly diverse, and to extrapolate certain attributes (besides some obvious ones like SES, test scores) upon the whole school population is so wrong
Yeah, it's something about text.

Lol, let me tell you - as someone who went to a cc and a top 20ish school, there definitely differences besides the ones you listed in parentheses.

Obviously there is variation within in each body, I realize that.
 
Yeah, it's something about text.

Lol, let me tell you, as someone who went to a cc and a top 20ish school, there definitely differences besides the ones you listed in parentheses.
Lol let me tell you, as an elitist, I know. But this is SDN and AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES
 
Lol let me tell you, as an elitist, I know. But this is SDN and AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES
:rolleyes:

From my experience, there is a pretty significant difference. Students at my school are more neurotic, there are few obese people, people are smarter, people like school more, people dress better and there are more south and east Asians(tying into SEC). There are probably more too I haven't noticed.

Every transfer I've talked to about this has noticed similar things.
 
:rolleyes:

From my experience, there is a pretty significant difference. Students at my school are more neurotic, there are few obese people, people are smarter, people like school more, people dress better and there are more south and east Asians(tying into SEC). There are probably more too I haven't noticed.

Every transfer I've talked to about this has noticed similar things.
I really can't tell at this point if you're just ignoring the sarcasm on purpose or not
 
:rolleyes:

From my experience, there is a pretty significant difference. Students at my school are more neurotic, there are few obese people, people are smarter, people like school more, people dress better and there are more south and east Asians(tying into SEC). There are probably more too I haven't noticed.

Every transfer I've talked to about this has noticed similar things.
I agree with you that the characteristics of the average student vary widely from school to school, but I think the point WedgeDawg was making in the original post that you replied to was that it isn't good to assume things about some particular individual based only on the school that the individual attended. For example, it is not a good idea to say: "He went to Harvard, so he must be a rich, pretentious snob." Basically, I think WedgeDawg was trying to say that we shouldn't stereotype people based on their schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I agree with you that the characteristics of the average student vary widely from school to school, but I think the point WedgeDawg was making in the original post that you replied to was that it isn't good to assume things about some particular individual based only on the school that the individual attended. For example, it is not a good idea to say: "He went to Harvard, so he must be a rich, pretentious snob." Basically, I think WedgeDawg was trying to say that we shouldn't stereotype people based on their schools.
I know, and I don't think the ice bucket story was intended to be representative, either. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think both him and @WedgeDawg have discussed this ad nauseum.
I still can't get over your sdn handle :laugh:
pulpfiction00001.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
More info .
But what about those nine people with 3.8+/36+ from Cornell that didn't get in? Either really bad luck, poor decision making, or no people skills I'd imagine.
 
But what about those nine people with 3.8+/36+ from Cornell that didn't get in? Either really bad luck, poor decision making, or no people skills I'd imagine.

Generally people who make poor decisions/overestimate themselves. Like applying to only top 10 MD/PHD programs and that's it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Generally people who make poor decisions/overestimate themselves. Like applying to only top 10 MD/PHD programs and that's it.
I just really don't understand that. I met someone interviewing that said she only applied to Mayo and Harvard. She was a student at Mayo, but how risky is that? Keep in mind, she could have been lying I guess. Just doesn't make a ton of sense not to apply to enough schools to give a great chance of getting in somewhere.
 
More info .
Damn I wish they did it identical to the AAMC table like Wustl did, I can't make the best/most clear comparisons with these weird 5 point bins! Also curious if the prehealth committee screens some people out

Somewhat related: rumor has it that kids at Wustl this past year or two are not dropping out of premed at the expected rate, and too many are staying on the med path despite very mediocre GPAs, so our prehealth committee for the first time may have to publish GPA cutoffs and refuse to support some applicants ! Perhaps they got their students to drink a little too much of their "med schools view your GPA as higher because of where it was earned" kool-aid
 
Somewhat related: rumor has it that kids at Wustl this past year or two are not dropping out of premed at the expected rate, and too many are staying on the med path despite very mediocre GPAs, so our prehealth committee for the first time may have to publish GPA cutoffs and refuse to support some applicants ! Perhaps they got their students to drink a little too much of their "med schools view your GPA as higher because of where it was earned" kool-aid
I'm thinking it's a rogue group of premeds who'll graduate with gpas of ~3.3 or less and use a post-bacc for post-Wash U reinvention. They'll eventually get admitted to MD schools and publish a paper (supported by irrefutable data of course), exposing Wash U's unforgiving pre-med track. In fact, I think you're the mastermind behind this project ;)
 
I just really don't understand that. I met someone interviewing that said she only applied to Mayo and Harvard. She was a student at Mayo, but how risky is that? Keep in mind, she could have been lying I guess. Just doesn't make a ton of sense not to apply to enough schools to give a great chance of getting in somewhere.
Keep in mind though that outside of medicine, it is not uncommon to only apply to a single digit number of schools. I know law students who only applied to 3-5 schools, same for business school and some PhD people. Sure, applying to only 5 top schools is a bad choice in any field, but applying to <10 schools is very very common outside of medicine
 
I'm thinking it's a rogue group of premeds who'll graduate with gpas of ~3.3 or less and use a post-bacc for post-Wash U reinvention. They'll eventually get admitted to MD schools and publish a paper (supported by irrefutable data of course), exposing Wash U's unforgiving pre-med track. In fact, I think you're the mastermind behind this project ;)
3.3 would not be a problem for 1st time admittance at many schools, WashU included. <3.0 is where things get dicey.

Can't we just agree that prestige/difficulty of UG is factored into admissions, but like so many things in life cannot be numerically quantified?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
3.3 would not be a problem for 1st time admittance at many schools, WashU included.
Uh I don't know if it would "not be a problem." It's definitely a problem. People do get in with a 3.3 though.
 
Uh I don't know if it would "not be a problem." It's definitely a problem. People do get in with a 3.3 though.
Among graduating seniors at my undergrad (traditional applicants) the acceptance rate with no committee screening was 86%. For those with cGPA>3.25, the acceptance rate was 90%.
Including non-trads and alumni, the total acceptance rate was 75-80%.
I know of most comparable schools to have similar numbers. Yes 3.3 is not ideal but it is not a huge issue either.

This information was directly communicated to me from the pre-med advising office.

Edit: I should note though that our traditional applicants averaged 34 on the old MCAT (non-trads 26). This data also does include URMs.
 
Last edited:
Among graduating seniors at my undergrad (traditional applicants) the acceptance rate with no committee screening was 86%. For those with cGPA>3.25, the acceptance rate was 90%.
Including non-trads and alumni, the total acceptance rate was 75-80%.
I know of most comparable schools to have similar numbers. Yes 3.3 is not ideal but it is not a huge issue either.

This information was directly communicated to me from the pre-med advising office.
Three questions:
1)Do those stats include DO schools?
2) Is your school a top 20?
3) Is your school known for "deflation" (really just lack of inflation)?
 
1. No
2. Yes
2. Not for deflation but definitely no inflation either.
That's not terribly surprising then. However a 3.3 at non-top schools (ie the vast majority of academia) would be borderline lethal for MD schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Eh I guess I'm not as familiar with how many are interviewed vs accepted. In most Canadian schools its around 30% of interviewees are accepted, with about 5% more on the wait-list.

Some schools like the UofT can get upwards of 40%, but it's still not really a "yours to lose"situation. Granted the probability is better but I guess I took it too far out of context.

So looking at the data, in 2014 there were 731,595 applications submitted among every MD school and there was a median of 566 interviews. If the mean is near the median (which is a pretty big assumption), then there was a total of 63,958 interviews granted and 20,343 total matriculants. So by that logic it's about a 30% post-interview matriculation rate. However, those stats are very misleading as it doesn't account for people who had multiple interviews, nor does it account for the actual acceptance rate, but rather the matriculation rate. At my school, around 500 people are accepted for ~270 spots. So if that's a typical number, we could speculate that the actual acceptance rate to be close to 38,000, which would make the post-interview acceptance rate closer to 60%. That's still not really conclusive or probably even very accurate, but I'd be willing to put my money down that as a whole, at least 50% of those interviewed in the U.S. are eventually accepted in the same cycle. I've posted links below.

Obviously there's a lot of speculation there, as there are a lot of factors where the data just isn't out there. The best answer you're going to get on that subject is that it's 100% dependent on the medical school, as some have over 80% post-interview acceptance rates while some will have less than 30%.

Anecdotally, from having multiple adcom members coming to speak to my master's program, the general consensus was that it was a "yours to lose situation". They all said that they pretty much knew whether they were going to accept, waitlist, or reject any given student before they even interviewed, and unless you were a 'borderline' candidate (which was less candidates than we would expect) the interview was basically just to make sure there weren't any red flags with your social skills or ethics. One went so far as to tell us that in all 13 of his years as an adcom member, he only ever explicitly stated that a school needed to accept a person 1 time, while he would explicitly tell them to reject someone 1-2 times each year.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstable1.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/261110/data/aibvol11_no7.pdf

Among graduating seniors at my undergrad (traditional applicants) the acceptance rate with no committee screening was 86%. For those with cGPA>3.25, the acceptance rate was 90%.
Including non-trads and alumni, the total acceptance rate was 75-80%.
I know of most comparable schools to have similar numbers. Yes 3.3 is not ideal but it is not a huge issue either.

This information was directly communicated to me from the pre-med advising office.

Edit: I should note though that our traditional applicants averaged 34 on the old MCAT (non-trads 26). This data also does include URMs.

That's great, but like most of the statistics that pre-med advisors provide it isn't particularly useful. It doesn't tell us what the rate of those with a 3.3 is. If you're telling me the acceptance rate of those with a 3.25-3.4 is 90% then I'd need to see data specifically on that before I'd be willing to believe that.

As someone who had a near 3.3 undergrad GPA, I can say that it is a very big deal to have a sub-par GPA. If you're from a well known and very strong program, this may be somewhat forgiven. As Goro has stated, unless those making a decision on your acceptance are familiar with the reputation of your institution, having a 3.3 will not typically be a small issue. That being said, I found the chart at the bottom of this paper to be interesting. Particularly the part where community service is considered more important that both cGPA and MCAT in the post-interview decision:

https://www.aamc.org/download/261106/data/aibvol11_no6.pdf
 
Yeah, confirmed – the only people who care this much about this are premeds
 
3.3 would not be a problem for 1st time admittance at many schools, WashU included. <3.0 is where things get dicey.

Can't we just agree that prestige/difficulty of UG is factored into admissions, but like so many things in life cannot be numerically quantified?
My post wasn't intended to be taken too seriously ;) Also, the 3.3 cutoff was just arbitrary.

Although, like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if 3.3 non-URM candidates from certain schools had a decent shot at MD programs. However, iirc, one of @efle's main issues with overly rigorous programs is the fact that the deflated gpas prevent strong students from being competitive for top med schools. A 3.3 student at Wash U can likely rock a 3.7-3.8 at a different program and have a much better shot at a top 20 or whatever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My post wasn't intended to be taken too seriously ;) Also, the 3.3 cutoff was just arbitrary.

Although, like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if 3.3 non-URM candidates from certain schools had a decent shot at MD programs. However, iirc, one of @efle's main issues with overly rigorous programs is the fact that the deflated gpas prevent strong students from being competitive for top med schools. A 3.3 student at Wash U can likely rock a 3.7-3.8 at a different program and have a much better shot at a top 20 or whatever.
^yep. You may not be totally screwed out of MD by a rigorous undergrad (though many are, ~2/3rds attrition is standard), but the people still clinging to decent MD odds in the low 3.x's did get screwed to a lesser degree out of their shot for more competitive MDs
 
I think premeds enjoy talking about this more than adcom members.
It's one of the only things some people have to show off about
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top