Falsifying Volunteer Hours

[TheBossDoctor]

This isn't about lying on AMCAS. This is about something different.

I was at my pre-med club's summer meeting, and I was talking to one guy that is part of a volunteering program in the nearby hospital. He says that for the first 50 hours of the program, he went to all his shifts and stayed there the whole time, to get some clinical experience. However, he said that after the first 40 hours, he just started going in to the hospital's lobby, signing in (on the sign-in sheet), and going back home. He did this until he met the 200 hour requirement. So basically, in reality he's not going to his volunteer shifts anymore, but if someone looks at the sign-in sheets, they'll think he is and give him credit for the hours.

My question is, what can be done about this? Will the hospital find out? Would medical schools be able to find out? If he puts 200 hours on the AMCAS, then even if ADCOMS call the hospital to verify, the hospital would just check the sign-in sheet records and see that he "volunteered" 200 hours even though he actually didn't (he just signed in and left). Its not fair that he's getting away with that while everyone else has to work for it.

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[pathologyDO]

There will always be people trying to cheat the system. Those people get what is coming to them one way or another.

 

[Noggin]

This isn't about lying on AMCAS. This is about something different.

I was at my pre-med club's summer meeting, and I was talking to one guy that is part of a volunteering program in the nearby hospital. He says that for the first 50 hours of the program, he went to all his shifts and stayed there the whole time, to get some clinical experience. However, he said that after the first 40 hours, he just started going in to the hospital's lobby, signing in (on the sign-in sheet), and going back home. He did this until he met the 200 hour requirement. So basically, in reality he's not going to his volunteer shifts anymore, but if someone looks at the sign-in sheets, they'll think he is and give him credit for the hours.

My question is, what can be done about this? Will the hospital find out? Would medical schools be able to find out? If he puts 200 hours on the AMCAS, then even if ADCOMS call the hospital to verify, the hospital would just check the sign-in sheet records and see that he "volunteered" 200 hours even though he actually didn't (he just signed in and left). Its not fair that he's getting away with that while everyone else has to work for it.

He may not get caught but that is extremely dishonest. I would probably report him if I worked at the same hospital.

 

[Pisiform]

News flash - life is not fair. Suck it up

 

[TheBossDoctor]

He may not get caught but that is extremely dishonest. I would probably report him if I worked at the same hospital.

It is extremely dishonest but I don't know if I wanna report him. I don't want to be a tattle-tale ("snitches get stitches").

 

[Toss]

My question is, what can be done about this? Will the hospital find out? Would medical schools be able to find out? If he puts 200 hours on the AMCAS, then even if ADCOMS call the hospital to verify, the hospital would just check the sign-in sheet records and see that he "volunteered" 200 hours even though he actually didn't (he just signed in and left). Its not fair that he's getting away with that while everyone else has to work for it.

At the end of the day, who cares?

I doubt this one detail is going to make or break an application.

Focus on making your application the best it could possibly be.

 

[SunsFun]

Oh it gets even better, OP. I know groups of kids who take turns and have one person come in and sign up for all of them.

 

[Radon XP]

I don't know about you, but most of the time I'm "volunteering" at the hospital, I'm just sitting around doing nothing/reading magazines/walking around.

Can you really blame him?

 

[lazyindy]

Man, who cares. If you really enjoy volunteering there and having the experience, go as much as you like don't worry about the hours and what others do.

 

[KnuxNole]

The fact that they think hours are important makes it silly. Hopefully, they are smart enough to know quality > quantity.

 

[chillaxbro]

I've seen whole groups of kids in the volunteer office over the weekend playing cards
The volunteer office people don't come in during the weekends
I always just assumed they sign in and then play cards for a few hours and then sign out

 

[Strudel19]

He got the most out of the experience that he could. Who cares? Volunteering is a joke.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

He got the most out of the experience that he could. Who cares? Volunteering is a joke.

Clinical volunteering is a joke? Hard to believe. I mean yea, you might not do much. But you still get important clinical exposure out of it. And its BS that he gets to tell medical schools that he has a lot of that clinical exposure while in reality he has very little.

I would imagine that it's hard to get legitimate clinical experience in 40 hours. If it was non-medical volunteering, then sure, it might not be as important. But seeing as how clinical experience is important in helping you decide whether or not medicine is for you, I would think that you would need way more than 40 hours to really get an idea. Heck I've been at my current clinical gig for more than 150 hours and I'm still learning new things every time I go in.

 

[Radon XP]

Clinical volunteering is a joke? Hard to believe.

I would imagine that it's hard to get legitimate clinical experience in 40 hours. If it was non-medical volunteering, then sure, it might not be as important. But seeing as how clinical experience is important in helping you decide whether or not medicine is for you, I would think that you would need way more than 40 hours to really get an idea. Heck I've been at my current clinical gig for more than 150 hours and I'm still learning new things every time I go in.

The problem is that, for most volunteers, there is no work of any value to be done.

 

[Strudel19]

Riddle me this: Is clinical volunteering actually clinical? I'll answer it for you. Most of it just isn't.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

Even if you're just getting blankets for patients or pushing them around in wheelchairs or asking them surveys, it's still patient interaction. Whatever happened to the whole "if you can smell patients, then it's clinical experience"?

 

[Strudel19]

I said most of it isn't. You're doing clinical volunteering. Most volunteering is doing what you're doing, minus pushing around patients in wheelchairs and administering surveys. One example is my experience. I was about to start ER volunteering, but my friend told me the position entailed scouring the department for pillows. Naturally, I didn't even waste my time. So you're lucky!

But to your original post, the only difference between 40 hours of wheelchair pushing and 150 hours of wheelchair pushing is being a better wheelchair pusher. Your friend feels he has gotten enough out of the experience and he knows are other ways to spend his time.

Or he's just an a-hole.

 

[Radon XP]

I said most of it isn't. You're doing clinical volunteering. Most volunteering is doing what you're doing, minus pushing around patients in wheelchairs and administering surveys. One example is my experience. I was about to start ER volunteering, but my friend told me the position entailed scouring the department for pillows. Naturally, I didn't even waste my time. So you're lucky!

But to your original post, the only difference between 40 hours of wheelchair pushing and 150 hours of wheelchair pushing is being a better wheelchair pusher. Your friend feels he has gotten enough out of the experience and he knows are other ways to spend his time.

Now that's the truth

 

[TheBossDoctor]

As a doctor, you'll encounter thousands of patients, with many different personalities, backgrounds, opinions, etc. Even if you're only pushing wheelchairs, you're hopefully interacting with the patients in the process, and I don't think 40 hours would be enough time to interact with a really wide variety of patients. Schools do want to see long-term clinical exposure (greater than 6 months), and I'm sure there's a reason for that.

 

[Barcu]

The fact that they think hours are important makes it silly. Hopefully, they are smart enough to know quality > quantity.

This. Number of hours is not really relevant. It's about the experiences you gain from activities that matter much more than hours. Even seemingly boring volunteer experiences can become important moments.

Riddle me this: Is clinical volunteering actually clinical? I'll answer it for you. Most of it just isn't.

Of course it isn't. You have no experience or clinical skills, so why should you expect to be given something cool to do? You have to work at it. At a minimum, you get to be in a hospital and observe the environment, which is far from useless. You will get some patient interaction, even if it's bringing them a blanket. And you will help out an extremely busy medical staff, which is appreciated.

You have to start at the bottom. But, if you show that you work hard and are willing to learn, they may let you do more and more. So don't sit around and do nothing. If you want more responsibility, put effort into your current tasks, no matter how trivial and boring they seem. If someone sees you put in the effort, they may ask you to do more interesting things. Even as a 3rd year med student, attendings don't always go up to you and say, "now you get to do this procedure." You show initiative and a willingness to learn before they trust you to do certain things (and you have to do lots of boring stuff too). Some students get to do more than others because they have shown enthusiasm and put in more effort for all tasks, even the boring, trivial ones. You earn the right to do cool, clinical things. They aren't always just handed to you, even when you are actually in med school.

 

[circulus vitios]

Clinical volunteering is a joke? Hard to believe. I mean yea, you might not do much. But you still get important clinical exposure out of it. And its BS that he gets to tell medical schools that he has a lot of that clinical exposure while in reality he has very little.

I would imagine that it's hard to get legitimate clinical experience in 40 hours. If it was non-medical volunteering, then sure, it might not be as important. But seeing as how clinical experience is important in helping you decide whether or not medicine is for you, I would think that you would need way more than 40 hours to really get an idea. Heck I've been at my current clinical gig for more than 150 hours and I'm still learning new things every time I go in.

I volunteered in a hospital for about 50 hours. It was a monumental waste of time. I learned nothing, did nothing, and hated it. It showed me absolutely nothing about 'whether or not medicine is for me' -- that was why I shadowed.

 

[RedICEE]

Live and let be in this case; don't report him. I'm a firm believer in karma, and falsifying volunteer hours puts nobody at risk.

One day his habits will come around to bite him and one day you will find yourself in a situation where you may feel it's necessary to bend the rules. Besides, if there really is some character to be built by the amount of volunteer work done, which is debatable, then he will be at a disadvantage.

 

[Strudel19]

I volunteered in a hospital for about 50 hours. It was a monumental waste of time. I learned nothing, did nothing, and hated it. It showed me absolutely nothing about 'whether or not medicine is for me' -- that was why I shadowed.

This made me lol so hard

 

[circulus vitios]

This made me lol so hard

Well, at least someone got something positive out of my volunteering experience.

That, and the ****lord hospital executive who saved paying someone minimum wage to push around wheel chairs and deliver food from the cafeteria.

 

[Strudel19]

.

 

[kdangg4]

It is his lost. If he is planning to become a physician I would hope that he likes to be around the hospital. Anyways, if you feel that strongly, you should report. If not, let bygones be bygones.

 

[chillaxbro]

I volunteer at my ****ty position hoping to get something to talk about on interviews. I have over 300 hours and I don't have much worth mentioning. Anyone else in this position. This is the only position that has any patient contact at this hospital :/ What should I do?

 

[Strudel19]

I volunteer at my ****ty position hoping to get something to talk about on interviews. I have over 300 hours and I don't have much worth mentioning. Anyone else in this position. This is the only position that has any patient contact at this hospital :/ What should I do?

You have plenty of volunteer hours. Pick up a CNA license or get a scribe job or something.

 

[circulus vitios]

I volunteer at my ****ty position hoping to get something to talk about on interviews. I have over 300 hours and I don't have much worth mentioning. Anyone else in this position. This is the only position that has any patient contact at this hospital :/ What should I do?

I have literally nothing worth talking about from my volunteering. I honestly remember maybe 1% of what I did, it was that soul-crushingly boring and worthless. I'm not sure how I'll talk about it during interviews: be honest, or make up some scenarios that aren't too outlandish?

 

[Toss]

This is the only position that has any patient contact at this hospital :/ What should I do?

You're at a hospital.

Go ask around for physicians that you can shadow.

 

[Strudel19]

I have literally nothing worth talking about from my volunteering. I honestly remember maybe 1% of what I did, it was that soul-crushingly boring and worthless. I'm not sure how I'll talk about it during interviews: be honest, or make up some scenarios that aren't too outlandish?

 

[khrisskhoras]

There will always be people trying to cheat the system. Those people get what is coming to them one way or another.

yeah...they end up doing family practice in the middle of nowhere

 

[Radon XP]

I have literally nothing worth talking about from my volunteering. I honestly remember maybe 1% of what I did, it was that soul-crushingly boring and worthless. I'm not sure how I'll talk about it during interviews: be honest, or make up some scenarios that aren't too outlandish?

 

[Strudel19]

During the interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLk4Ia0otko

 

[SunsFun]

Clinical volunteering is a joke? Hard to believe. I mean yea, you might not do much. But you still get important clinical exposure out of it. And its BS that he gets to tell medical schools that he has a lot of that clinical exposure while in reality he has very little.

I would imagine that it's hard to get legitimate clinical experience in 40 hours. If it was non-medical volunteering, then sure, it might not be as important. But seeing as how clinical experience is important in helping you decide whether or not medicine is for you, I would think that you would need way more than 40 hours to really get an idea. Heck I've been at my current clinical gig for more than 150 hours and I'm still learning new things every time I go in.

Hmmm... Actually I approve of your friend doing that rather than wasting his time and getting on people's nerves hanging around the hospital where he is not helping anyway. Most of these volunteers who do it strictly to get that checkbox filled are only there sucking up to attendings and pissing other people off. He made the right choice and I wish more would have the balls to skip on this "clinical experience" for everyone's sake.

Also, I don't have a problem with your friend getting his hours on a piece of paper. Who cares anyway? Some premeds believe that clinical experience is essential to know that you can handle the patients and medicine is right for you. I disagree with this sentiment. Getting into medical school in pretty much every other country doesn't require any of the "soft" things. Their physicians seem to manage just fine going into medicine with zero prior exposure.

 

[KnuxNole]

I mentioned this in the other clinical volunteering discussion: If you find it a waste of time, dont do it. Volunteering at the local hospital isn't the only way to get clinical exposure.

 

[jamiechan]

This isn't about lying on AMCAS. This is about something different.

I was at my pre-med club's summer meeting, and I was talking to one guy that is part of a volunteering program in the nearby hospital. He says that for the first 50 hours of the program, he went to all his shifts and stayed there the whole time, to get some clinical experience. However, he said that after the first 40 hours, he just started going in to the hospital's lobby, signing in (on the sign-in sheet), and going back home. He did this until he met the 200 hour requirement. So basically, in reality he's not going to his volunteer shifts anymore, but if someone looks at the sign-in sheets, they'll think he is and give him credit for the hours.

My question is, what can be done about this? Will the hospital find out? Would medical schools be able to find out? If he puts 200 hours on the AMCAS, then even if ADCOMS call the hospital to verify, the hospital would just check the sign-in sheet records and see that he "volunteered" 200 hours even though he actually didn't (he just signed in and left). Its not fair that he's getting away with that while everyone else has to work for it.

My volunteer program have board members come in randomly to check on the volunteers. Maybe you should suggest this to the volunteer board in your hospital. It works for us.

 

[Geebeejay]

He probably won't get caught, but since just about every premed volunteers in a hospital anyway, it's not like he's getting some sort of advantage on his application by listing it. Maybe he'll get caught in a lie during interviews, and maybe he'll be caught, maybe not, but it's really not your problem. Worry about yourself....people do dishonest things all the time and usually get away with doing them. Such is life.

Do not listen to all these people and go crying to the volunteer coordinator to "report him". Snitches and rats are not much better than cheaters. Realize that dishonest people tend to be dishonest, and his dishonest behavior may get him in trouble down the road professionally, socially, etc.

 

[RedClementine]

I didn't falsify volunteer hours, but the computer system at the hospital I worked at was down ALL THE TIME. So I actually completed more than 250 hours but the system might actually say 150 or 175. This actually keeps me awake at night but I didn't really think about it until a week ago.

I hope to God the schools don't check because they might not believe me...

 

[bajastapler]

Just be focused on you man. Don't worry about what other people are doing. Not worth your time.

 

[SunsFun]

I didn't falsify volunteer hours, but the computer system at the hospital I worked at was down ALL THE TIME. So I actually completed more than 250 hours but the system might actually say 150 or 175. This actually keeps me awake at night but I didn't really think about it until a week ago.

I hope to God the schools don't check because they might not believe me...

Dude...

 

[RedClementine]

Do you think they would actually verify? This volunteering did happen more than 2 years ago..

 

[Arkangeloid]

Some schools have nearly 15K applicants. Nowhere near enough time to check stuff lol.

 

[RedClementine]

Some schools have nearly 15K applicants. Nowhere near enough time to check stuff lol.

What about post acceptance?

 

[Planes2Doc]

Like I said in other threads, hospital volunteering is just like Vegas, minus the fun. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, and the same with the hospital. There is no oversight from ADCOMs because guess what? Except for a few schools, volunteering is NOT an official requirement! You'd obviously be an idiot to not do it, but it's not technically a requirement. And if it's not an actual requirement like college grades and the MCAT, then how can ADCOMs oversee the activity?

Therefore, whatever the applicant feeds the ADCOMs is only bounded by their imagination. Of course most applicants will embellish their hospital volunteer experiences. Do you think ADCOMs want to hear about cleaning beds and restocking shelves? Do you think pre-meds actually want to clean beds and restock shevles during what's supposed to be the best time of their lives?

HELL NO!

Sadly, ADCOMs will only see the hours at the end, and if they really want, they can verify them. As long as your friend isn't caught by the hospital, there's nothing they can do. It's just playing the game dishonestly.

Now if the hospital finds out, they can kick your friend out. He will forfeit whatever hours he did, but will leave the hospital off the application. It'll be swept under the rug like it never happened. If ADCOMs already lack the time to call your references on AMCAS to begin with, then I don't think they will call every hospital in the area to see if you ever volunteered there.

There's very much to gain, and too little to lose. Sadly, this is life.

 

[Lamel]

I think you guys are missing the OPs point; it's not really about whether or not volunteering is worth it.

The dude is lying on his application to gain an advantage over others who actually came in and volunteered. There are cheaters everywhere OP; you can report him if you want or not, but make sure you continue to try and improve your experiences.


And as for whether or not you can blame him. Yes, of course you can blame him. If he wanted to quit after 50 hours that's fine, but if you're going to falsify 4x that amount then you deserve to be blamed. But he's playing the game I suppose.

I'll chime in and say that my hospital volunteering was fairly boring as well, and I simply quit myself at about 50-60 hours over 6 months, which I think is fine. Picked up a much better clinical experience gig and have plenty non-clinical volunteering.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Also here's another question for the OP...

Would you rather have your friend browse Facebook or study for school on hospital property, or at home?

If your friend has such an understandably poor mentality about hospital volunteering, then what do you think that he would accomplish if he was actually there half-assing everything he does? What do you think about the pre-med volunteers who half-ass everything they do while racking up those hours, yet write a glowing PS?

 

[Pattycake25]

It is extremely dishonest but I don't know if I wanna report him. I don't want to be a tattle-tale ("snitches get stitches").

You know who came up with that phrase, right? Those who are worried they'll be "snitched" on. A campaign to shame and intimidate do-gooders out of doing what they feel is right. Why on earth would you listen to THEM?

I wouldn't go so far as to call you OBLIGATED to report it to your school's premed office - there are various valid reasons to not do so even if you agree it's incredibly immoral. You would be absolutely justified in calling him out though. If it makes it easier, know that in some places, if it somehow got out another way what he was doing and that you knew about it and did nothing, you could yourself be at risk of sanction. Not a great chance of it, and it would be terribly immoral on your school's part, but it IS possible.

 

[Pattycake25]

I didn't falsify volunteer hours, but the computer system at the hospital I worked at was down ALL THE TIME. So I actually completed more than 250 hours but the system might actually say 150 or 175. This actually keeps me awake at night but I didn't really think about it until a week ago.

I hope to God the schools don't check because they might not believe me...

1. They won't check.

2. Even if they did, I'm sure the hospital would be happy to verify the technical difficulties at that time, which would make your story reasonable enough to accept (assuming you have no other irregularities in your past).

 

[TheBossDoctor]

I think you guys are missing the OPs point; it's not really about whether or not volunteering is worth it.

The dude is lying on his application to gain an advantage over others who actually came in and volunteered. There are cheaters everywhere OP; you can report him if you want or not, but make sure you continue to try and improve your experiences.


And as for whether or not you can blame him. Yes, of course you can blame him. If he wanted to quit after 50 hours that's fine, but if you're going to falsify 4x that amount then you deserve to be blamed. But he's playing the game.

This is what I was more concerned about. If his volunteering position is boring and useless, then sure he should quit it if he doesn't want to go anymore. But it's definitely not right to lie and say that you volunteer when you don't. It's one thing to quit, but another thing to quit but still lie and make the hospital think yore going just to gain an unfair advantage.

I feel like I might just send an anonymous comment to the program which tells them to watch out for this since there are rumors about it happening. I don't want to mention any names and tattle, so I'll tell them to just be wary of people falsifying their hours.