Falsifying Volunteer Hours

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How else would you prove to us that you really want to spend the next 40 years being around sick people and that you know what you're getting into?? Not everyone can be a scribe, and I could be cynical and say that scribing is merely shadowing; you don't' actually interact with the patients.

But better to mention this:

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Also worth mentioning:

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.




The fact that clinical volunteering is basically a necessity to get into medical school is stupid. The volunteering part needs to be re-vamped. How many people are passionate about re-stocking things, sitting at a desk, or etc... I'll be hopeful if I have about ~100 clinical volunteering hours by the time I apply, but I'm sure my scribing experience and other volunteer / extracurricular will be much more important than the "clinical volunteering" that pretty much every other applicant has.

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How else would you prove to us that you really want to spend the next 40 years being around sick people and that you know what you're getting into?? Not everyone can be a scribe, and I could be cynical and say that scribing is merely shadowing; you don't' actually interact with the patients.

But better to mention this:

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Also worth mentioning:

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Does an extra 400 hours mean that I know what I'm getting into better than the next person? Shouldn't it really be assessed by how well one comminicates their experience(s) in essays/interviews?

Do adcoms really think that person A with 400 hours of volunteering in a hospital wants to be around sick people less than person B with 1000 hours? Where in reality either person's hours could be spent doing nothing?

And why is it that having 3000 hours of volunteering with sick people during high school is not relevant to med school apps and recommended to be left off amcas?

It all seems so stupid to volunteer for "hours" rather than the experience of helping others..
 
I have a very limited data set, but the SDNers who PM for advice and have reported their acceptances to high tier schools tend to have very high patient contact hours.

So it's not merely demonstrating the parameters that I discuss, it's evidence that people REALLY like being around patients. it also shows us that an applicant isn't merely box-checking.

Having 400 hrs patient contact experience is well above avg. There's a reason whey we throw the term "cookie cutter" around here as a pejorative, for people have the bare bones 100 or so hrs. For me, the more hrs you have, the better you're going to be received by a screener or interviewer.

The perspectives of a child are different from when you an adult. But there's no law that says you need to exclude anything volunteer related from high school. Include it in your app and let us know how it works out.

Does an extra 400 hours mean that I know what I'm getting into better than the next person? Shouldn't it really be assessed by how well one comminicates their experience(s) in essays/interviews?

Do adcoms really think that person A with 400 hours of volunteering in a hospital wants to be around sick people less than person B with 1000 hours? Where in reality either person's hours could be spent doing nothing?

And why is it that having 3000 hours of volunteering with sick people during high school is not relevant to med school apps and recommended to be left off amcas?

It all seems so stupid to volunteer for "hours" rather than the experience of helping others..
 
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I am a 4th year that got a dog 1st year, and then another one a few months ago. I have a wife who works easy hours, otherwise it would have been impossible. I'm a strong believer that regardless of how happy you'd be with a pet, you need to ensure that the pet is well cared for. No dog would be happy locked inside all day long with no interaction. Third/fourth year whenever I would be at the hospital all day, and my wife had to work a longer day, our dogs would go to dog daycare. Sometimes expensive, but fair to the dogs, as I would feel crappy leaving them inside for 12 hours. Everyone in my class with dogs either has a SO with a flexible schedule, or relies heavily on family/friends/sitters 3rd year.

Someone I know from college got a cat when she did not have a lot of money. She didn't get pet insurance, and the cat got sick and a vet bill was going to be like $500 and she wanted to abandon/euthanize the cat. Don't be that person. Ensure that you can afford a pet: vet visits, food, toys, vaccines, spay/neuter, etc...

Obviously this is true, but to provide an example to the contrary, I have <50 patient contact hours and have had a very successful cycle so far at top schools (much to my surprise). I even prepared to answer questions about my low hours but perhaps what is even more surprising is the fact that I haven't been confronted about it.
N=1
 
I surmise that you have something to make up for the pt contact hrs, like lots of other volunteering, or some other great hook???

But you are an outlier. Ditto our pal WedgeDawg.


Obviously this is true, but to provide an example to the contrary, I have <50 patient contact hours and have had a very successful cycle so far at top schools (much to my surprise). I even prepared to answer questions about my low hours but perhaps what is even more surprising is the fact that I haven't been confronted about it.
 
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I surmise that you have something to make up for the pt contact hrs, like lots of other volunteering, or some other great hook???

But you are an outlier. Ditto our pal WedgeDawg.


Yeah, when I apply I probably won't have any volunteer hours. But I'll have 400 leadership hours (coaching), shadowing, and thousands of clinical, direct patient interactions (5-6k) by the time I apply, and it's for sick/dying patients. So I'm pretty confident that my hours of patient contact and the stories that I bring to the table of my experience in hospice will be more important than finding pillows in a hospital ER will ever be.

I haven't applied yet and I'm not an adcom, but I would rather have my time spent doing things I can speak to in a passionate manner. As long as my GPA and MCAT are solid I don't see there being an issue with my application. But that's just how I see it. N=1 in this situation (and I guess I'll find out in 2017).
 
Patient contact is patient contact, whether it's paid for or not. The more, the better. EC-wise, at least, you're a catch, TPM.



Yeah, when I apply I probably won't have any volunteer hours. But I'll have 400 leadership hours (coaching), shadowing, and thousands of clinical, direct patient interactions (5-6k) by the time I apply, and it's for sick/dying patients. So I'm pretty confident that my hours of patient contact and the stories that I bring to the table of my experience in hospice will be more important than finding pillows in a hospital ER will ever be.

I haven't applied yet and I'm not an adcom, but I would rather have my time spent doing things I can speak to in a passionate manner. As long as my GPA and MCAT are solid I don't see there being an issue with my application. But that's just how I see it. N=1 in this situation (and I guess I'll find out in 2017).
 
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It's not how many hours you have, it's what you do in the hours that you're there. I think my <200 hours was sufficient because I was extremely productive during those hours and didn't sit around twiddling my thumbs or goofing off.
 
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wtf are you a nurse or something

Nope. Liaison for a hospice and home health agency. I work with families and patients on education, continuation of care, I've even been the one to break the news to someone that they are appropriate for hospice when their doctor doesn't want to do it themselves (it happens more often than you'd expect), also work with the interdisciplinary team (drs, RNs, MSWs, aides etc) to make sure communication of care is consistent. My degree was in communication studies ;)
 
He got the most out of the experience that he could. Who cares? Volunteering is a joke.

Sorry for the incoming rant, but the gross generalization somewhat warrants one.

This is wrong. Period. My volunteer experience has been by far the most valuable experience leading me to pursue an M.D. My program has dropped me into the center of a hands-on patient care role that I could never have gotten anywhere else. I've fed, bathed, and helped more patients than I can count at this point. I've made lasting relationships with healthcare providers that have been essential in shaping my decision to be an M.D. over a PA/NP/RN. I've been able to help comfort a woman who was losing her husband slowly to dementia, and families that just lost loved ones in an ER.

I know it's commonplace to assume volunteering = sitting at a desk bored, and that it's generally just considered another mark on a checklist for premeds. I don't think your comment was malicious or anything, but be careful when you generalize because you lump those of us who had valuable experiences working for free in a hospital with the kind of people OP is describing. :)
 
I've been able to help comfort a woman who was losing her husband slowly to dementia, and families that just lost loved ones in an ER.
**** I have to do stuff like that? I'm an /r9k/ level autist when it comes to loss. I talk to patients all the time about cheerful things, but idk how to comfort people. I feel insincere (because I really can't feel exactly what they're feeling, so I kind of am insincere).
 
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**** I have to do stuff like that? I'm an /r9k/ level autist when it comes to loss. I talk to patients all the time about cheerful things, but idk how to comfort people. I feel insincere (because I really can't feel exactly what they're feeling, so I kind of am insincere).

Dude are you high if you think you'll have any success as a physician without empathy? This isn't FOX and you aren't Greg House.
 
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Dude are you high if you think you'll have any success as a physician without empathy? This isn't FOX and you aren't Greg House.
Idk do you think most premeds have flawless comforting skills before they go into med school
 
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I did 200 hours of stocking shelves, making beds, and wiping down seats last year. Made me feel like a janitor. Hated it.

This year I'm pretty much doing what your friend is doing. Walking in, signing in, and studying for the MCAT (or shadowing doctors). Is it wrong? Yes and no

I don't really think this makes me entirely unethical. I've been volunteering twice a month at my local soup kitchen for the past 12 years (parents started bringing me there when I was 7). I still do it, because I love it. No idea how many hours I've spent, probably 2000+. I'd like to think that makes up for how I'm cheating the hospital.

Also the hospital staff really couldn't care less. First day this year they ran out of tasks to give me within 30 minutes, and I'm pretty sure they forgot I was there really quickly.

As long as you're on site and do what's asked of you, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. With the way the current system is set up (no oversight), the ADCOMs can only verify hours but not the overall performance of the student during those hours. Therefore, you are free to either be so helpful and involved that you're an honorary member pf the healthcare team, all the way to being minimally present (or absent as described in the OP's situation).

I believe that what the OP described in 2013 is wrong. Someone who signs in and ditches, as mentioned earlier, is probably one of those people that might end up leaving rotations early or skipping out on didactics. But regardless, they are playing Russian roulette with their hours because if they are caught signing in and ditching, they forefit all hours which they could have listed from the experience. There is no way in hell I would list the site on AMCAS after being caught doing something like this. If this occurs close to applying and makes up the majority or all of your volunteering, then you've just earned yourself at least one gap year by doing this and getting caught.

But what about being present and putting forth minimal effort? There's nothing wrong with that. Sure, it's not good when people are lazy or simply don't care to put forth a big effort, but that's a normal part of being in an organization. If this was paid employment for some company, you would probably not get any promotions or raises, and maybe laid off if there is a round of cuts. But I don't think you would get outright fired.

Therefore, shadowing and studying for the MCAT during your shifts is Kosher. I encourage people to make their volunteer experience into whatever they want it to be, as long as they are respectful and do what is asked of them. I think it's great if you can study, shadow, and do personal things during your shift if it makes you happy and helps improve your chances for medical school. That's why I'm such a big fan of clinical volunteering. It's only a few hours per week and you can kill multiple birds with one stone. You can relax, study, or shadow (and double-dip the hours while you're at it). There is no better deal than this in the medical school admissions process!
 
It's not how many hours you have, it's what you do in the hours that you're there. I think my <200 hours was sufficient because I was extremely productive during those hours and didn't sit around twiddling my thumbs or goofing off.

What would you define as productive? Would you consider supplying snacks/beverages, cleaning, pushing wheelchairs as productive? Simply curious.
 
As long as you're on site and do what's asked of you, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. With the way the current system is set up (no oversight), the ADCOMs can only verify hours but not the overall performance of the student during those hours. Therefore, you are free to either be so helpful and involved that you're an honorary member pf the healthcare team, all the way to being minimally present (or absent as described in the OP's situation).

I believe that what the OP described in 2013 is wrong. Someone who signs in and ditches, as mentioned earlier, is probably one of those people that might end up leaving rotations early or skipping out on didactics. But regardless, they are playing Russian roulette with their hours because if they are caught signing in and ditching, they forefit all hours which they could have listed from the experience. There is no way in hell I would list the site on AMCAS after being caught doing something like this. If this occurs close to applying and makes up the majority or all of your volunteering, then you've just earned yourself at least one gap year by doing this and getting caught.

But what about being present and putting forth minimal effort? There's nothing wrong with that. Sure, it's not good when people are lazy or simply don't care to put forth a big effort, but that's a normal part of being in an organization. If this was paid employment for some company, you would probably not get any promotions or raises, and maybe laid off if there is a round of cuts. But I don't think you would get outright fired.

Therefore, shadowing and studying for the MCAT during your shifts is Kosher. I encourage people to make their volunteer experience into whatever they want it to be, as long as they are respectful and do what is asked of them. I think it's great if you can study, shadow, and do personal things during your shift if it makes you happy and helps improve your chances for medical school. That's why I'm such a big fan of clinical volunteering. It's only a few hours per week and you can kill multiple birds with one stone. You can relax, study, or shadow (and double-dip the hours while you're at it). There is no better deal than this in the medical school admissions process!
Yup, I am indeed in the hospital the entire time. I thought it was weird that everyone was accusing me of "lying" and "cheating" even though I was still going to the hospital and staying there the entire time. Guess I didn't explain it correctly.
 
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That's pretty much all I did and I sure as hell didn't feel productive.

Do you think that hospital patients in wheelchairs can get where they need to go without help? Should the hungry and thirsty who are tethered to oxygen lines and IVs fend for themselves or suffer in silence? Is it okay for hospitals to be messy and dirty and unusable for the next patient because the hospital is understaffed and unable to turn over a bay promptly?
How can you do things for others and not feel as it was productive? I don't get it.
 
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Colleague, surely you've had poorly performing students who could never see the Big Picture? You just saw an example.

Do you think that hospital patients in wheelchairs can get where they need to go without help? Should the hungry and thirsty who are tethered to oxygen lines and IVs fend for themselves or suffer in silence? Is it okay for hospitals to be messy and dirty and unusable for the next patient because the hospital is understaffed and unable to turn over a bay promptly?
How can you do things for others and not feel as it was productive? I don't get it.



While your experiences are at the highest end of those experiences we look for in applicants, what's coming across from you is what comes across from most of my successful interviewees who are ranked very highly by our interviewers.

They got something out of volunteering; they liked being around patients, and they didn't look at the experience as mere box checking.

I have a notion the box checkers end up on the waitlist more often.

Sorry for the incoming rant, but the gross generalization somewhat warrants one.
This is wrong. Period. My volunteer experience has been by far the most valuable experience leading me to pursue an M.D. My program has dropped me into the center of a hands-on patient care role that I could never have gotten anywhere else. I've fed, bathed, and helped more patients than I can count at this point. I've made lasting relationships with healthcare providers that have been essential in shaping my decision to be an M.D. over a PA/NP/RN. I've been able to help comfort a woman who was losing her husband slowly to dementia, and families that just lost loved ones in an ER.

I know it's commonplace to assume volunteering = sitting at a desk bored, and that it's generally just considered another mark on a checklist for premeds. I don't think your comment was malicious or anything, but be careful when you generalize because you lump those of us who had valuable experiences working for free in a hospital with the kind of people OP is describing. :)
 
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How else would you prove to us that you really want to spend the next 40 years being around sick people and that you know what you're getting into?? Not everyone can be a scribe, and I could be cynical and say that scribing is merely shadowing; you don't' actually interact with the patients.

But better to mention this:

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Also worth mentioning:

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

I think the bolded claim is, at least anecdotally from my experience, quite the opposite of the truth. My scribing experience for orthopedics has provided extensive patient contact and extends far beyond merely being a fly-on-the-wall. Oncology has been even more involved due to the fear management aspect of practice and my role to play in helping to alleviate it. People are generally always curious of who I am and what I'm doing. I get to know my patients well and actively participate in their care by answering easy questions about lab work and treatment algorithms (without speaking for my physicians and surgeons, obviously).

Scribing for me has been far more enriching than shadowing. I act more as an apprentice than a court reporter, with the surgeons acting as mentors/teachers more than a supervisor. With that said, I'm sure individual experiences vary from mine. I may have just been lucky with the providers I was paired with.
 
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Do you think that hospital patients in wheelchairs can get where they need to go without help? Should the hungry and thirsty who are tethered to oxygen lines and IVs fend for themselves or suffer in silence? Is it okay for hospitals to be messy and dirty and unusable for the next patient because the hospital is understaffed and unable to turn over a bay promptly?
The hospital I volunteer at isn't understaffed, though; if anything, it's overstaffed. A lot of the lower level hospital workers used to take advantage of me; hospital transporters sometimes gave me a couple hours of their work so that they could lounge around and read tabloids. Linen changers did the same. I agree that none of the things that you listed should happen; but they wouldn't happen at this hospital because there were actual employees who were paid to do that. I didn't dislike interacting with patients; I disliked virtually being an unpaid janitor. I thoroughly enjoy shadowing, though, because it gives me an actual window into the quotidian activities of a physician.
How can you do things for others and not feel as it was productive? I don't get it.
I don't feel this way about all of my volunteering. Just the stuff I do at the hospital. When I volunteer at the soup kitchen, I feel incredibly productive. I know that I'm making a significant difference; the vast majority of these people have nowhere else to eat, and many of them tell us that they look forward to the two times a month that we're there. I can see the smiles on their faces as they taste the food we've prepared, and I've forged relationships with many of the soup kitchen patrons. They know my face and my story, and I know theirs.

Just at first glance I would suspect this as well, and I find it comforting.
What is with this holier than thou attitude around here?
 
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The hospital I volunteer at isn't understaffed, though; if anything, it's overstaffed. A lot of the lower level hospital workers used to take advantage of me; hospital transporters sometimes gave me a couple hours of their work so that they could lounge around and read tabloids. Linen changers did the same. I agree that none of the things that you listed should happen; but they wouldn't happen at this hospital because there were actual employees who were paid to do that. I didn't dislike interacting with patients; I disliked virtually being an unpaid janitor. I thoroughly enjoy shadowing, though, because it gives me an actual window into the quotidian activities of a physician.

I don't feel this way about all of my volunteering. Just the stuff I do at the hospital. When I volunteer at the soup kitchen, I feel incredibly productive. I know that I'm making a significant difference; the vast majority of these people have nowhere else to eat, and many of them tell us that they look forward to the two times a month that we're there. I can see the smiles on their faces as they taste the food we've prepared, and I've forged relationships with many of the soup kitchen patrons. They know my face and my story, and I know theirs.


What is with this holier than thou attitude around here?

Holier than thou is an interesting way to put it, when we're talking about people who falsify hours.
 
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Holier than thou is an interesting way to put it, when we're talking about people who falsify hours.
I thought you were referring to me, though. I'm not falsifying hours, I'm just being an underachieving volunteer. I'm at the hospital the entire time, I'm just doing other stuff.
 
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I thought you were referring to me, though. I'm not falsifying hours, I'm just being an underachieving volunteer. I'm at the hospital the entire time, I'm just doing other stuff.
Please, enough with the ridiculous excuses. You aren't going to convince anyone.
 
Which part is unethical?
If I seriously have to explain it to you, then we aren't going to find any common ground here.

You are exploiting a system set up to take care of patients while neglecting the responsibility you have towards said patients. And even worse, you are preventing that position from being filled by someone who is genuinely interested in helping.
 
If I seriously have to explain it to you, then we aren't going to find any common ground here.

You are exploiting a system set up to take care of patients while neglecting the responsibility you have towards said patients.
Not really. I'm never assigned anything to do. This year, I chose to volunteer in an area of the hospital that sees little to no activity. As I said, I finished all the work that I was given within 30 minutes. It's not as if I'm actively neglecting anyone or any duty.

And even worse, you are preventing that position from being filled by someone who is genuinely interested in helping.
This isn't true at all. My hospital doesn't have a cap on volunteers.
I think you're projecting your resentment towards someone else on me.
 
Not really. I'm never assigned anything to do. This year, I chose to volunteer in an area of the hospital that sees little to no activity. As I said, I finished all the work that I was given within 30 minutes. It's not as if I'm actively neglecting anyone or any duty.
There is always more work to do. I rarely had down time when on was on the floor because I was always looking for ways to help. I doubt you really know anything about the needs of your hospital or it's specific departments. I know because I've been on the opposite ends of things recruiting volunteers and assigning them to departments. Many departments have a desperate need for a helping hand. You'd be amazed at how much stocking utility closets, bringing blankets to patients, etc helps. Look, you and I both know you are reverse engineering excuses. If you are going to lie and cheat then go ahead and do it, but stop pretending that you are so special as to be immune from judgement because you do good elsewhere in your life.
What is with this holier than thou attitude around here?
Ironic really.
I think you're projecting your resentment towards someone else on me.
Not at all. Though I have been hearing the same pathetic excuses from people pulling this crap for a couple of years now. It's sad that I have to ask the charge nurses to make sure people actually show up to their shifts.
 
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There is always more work to do. I rarely had down time when on was on the floor because I was always looking for ways to help. I doubt you really know anything about the needs of your hospital or it's specific departments. I know because I've been on the opposite ends of things recruiting volunteers and assigning them to departments. Many departments have a desperate need for a helping hand. You'd be amazed at how much stocking utility closets, bringing blankets to patients, etc helps. Look, you and I both know you are reverse engineering excuses. If you are going to lie and cheat then go ahead and do it, but stop pretending that you are so special as to be immune from judgement because you do good elsewhere in your life.

Ironic really.

Not at all. Though I have been hearing the same pathetic excuses from people pulling this crap for years now.
I'm neither lying nor cheating. I'm not falsifying anything. The constitution does protect your right to accuse me of those things, though, so you're more than welcome to continue.
 
Obviously this is true, but to provide an example to the contrary, I have <50 patient contact hours and have had a very successful cycle so far at top schools (much to my surprise). I even prepared to answer questions about my low hours but perhaps what is even more surprising is the fact that I haven't been confronted about it.

What, how? Do you have really strong EC's or something?
 
I'm neither lying nor cheating. I'm not falsifying anything.
Then you should go ahead and write about you totally didn't lie and totally didn't falsify hours on your med school app. I'm sure many AdCom members will agree with you :laugh:
 
Then you should go ahead and write about you totally didn't lie and totally didn't falsify hours on your med school app. I'm sure many AdCom members will agree with you :laugh:
This isn't ordinary cancer... this is advanced cancer
 
The hospital I volunteer at isn't understaffed, though; if anything, it's overstaffed. A lot of the lower level hospital workers used to take advantage of me; hospital transporters sometimes gave me a couple hours of their work so that they could lounge around and read tabloids. Linen changers did the same. I agree that none of the things that you listed should happen; but they wouldn't happen at this hospital because there were actual employees who were paid to do that. I didn't dislike interacting with patients; I disliked virtually being an unpaid janitor. I thoroughly enjoy shadowing, though, because it gives me an actual window into the quotidian activities of a physician.

This pretty much sums up the experience I had volunteering. I was at a north suburban hospital in the Chicago North Shore. It was in a well-to-do community and was definitely not understaffed. Unlike you, I spent all of my time in the ED, and it was mostly techs that were bossing me around, and sometimes nurses (I was usually invisible to most nurses and all but one doctor over the years). While I was asked to clean rooms by the techs, they spent that time lounging around during shifts. It wasn't exactly the best feeling. I remember my greatest moment volunteering was when I was about to leave during my shift, and a tech came to me telling me to clean three rooms. I then told him, "Sorry buddy, I'm heading out!" It was the greatest feeling ever, and in hindsight, I'm kind of sad that this was the highlight of my experience. While I enjoyed the patient contact, it was few and far between. The majority of the time was spent doing janitorial work, which sucked since the hospital wasn't understaffed and financially it did just fine. @LizzyM has a point that some hospitals are definitely understaffed and are reliant on volunteers to get a lot of things done, but this doesn't occur at all of them. Had I gone to inner-city Chicago, I likely would have experienced this. Even so, I spent a few months during my third year rotations at a inner-city hospital, and it wasn't understaffed and was run like a well-oiled machine. Also, despite disliking my janitorial duties, I really enjoy the patient contact to this day as a medical student.

If I seriously have to explain it to you, then we aren't going to find any common ground here.

You are exploiting a system set up to take care of patients while neglecting the responsibility you have towards said patients. And even worse, you are preventing that position from being filled by someone who is genuinely interested in helping.

If @baratheonfire is performing so poorly, then the volunteer coordinator would go ahead and let them go and get another volunteer to cover the shift. At hospitals that are around large universities, there is always this specific group of students that are always incredibly willing to do volunteer work, but I can't seem to remember who they are or what they are studying! :rolleyes: But anyway, one's performance on a job is all relative. For instance, let's compare this again to the corporate employee model. For every employee, managers might have different opinions and ratings in an evaluation. One can rate an employee as being 4/5, while another can rate them as being 2/5. Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't stay beyond 5PM if they came in at 9AM? Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't do more work than is assigned to them? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take a full hour or even slightly longer for lunch? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take really long poop breaks to read stuff on their phone? All of these can describe employees which do at least the bare minimum of work that is assigned to them and can be rated on different levels based on different managers.

I can tell from your posts that you were an "honorary member of the hospital team" since you put forth as much as effort as possible during your shifts. I think that the employees greatly appreciate such service. At the same time, you'll have people all the way down to the other end of the spectrum, which includes people that will sit in a corner doing their own thing, and then do the bare minimum when asked. If these volunteers at the other end of the spectrum are doing something wrong, then the volunteer coordinator has all the reason to fire them. If these volunteers are really doing something wrong and the volunteer coordinator isn't doing anything about it, then it's the volunteer coordinator that is doing something wrong, and perhaps it is the volunteer coordinator that is being lazy and "unethical" themselves!

Now if baratheonfire was signing in, then ditching the shift, then coming back to sign out; then that would be a whole other story! But as for one's level of performance, then that's all relative and it's up to the volunteer coordinator or whoever is in charge to make that determination.
 
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This pretty much sums up the experience I had volunteering. I was at a north suburban hospital in the Chicago North Shore. It was in a well-to-do community and was definitely not understaffed. Unlike you, I spent all of my time in the ED, and it was mostly techs that were bossing me around, and sometimes nurses (I was usually invisible to most nurses and all but one doctor over the years). While I was asked to clean rooms by the techs, they spent that time lounging around during shifts. It wasn't exactly the best feeling. I remember my greatest moment volunteering was when I was about to leave during my shift, and a tech came to me telling me to clean three rooms. I then told him, "Sorry buddy, I'm heading out!" It was the greatest feeling ever, and in hindsight, I'm kind of sad that this was the highlight of my experience. While I enjoyed the patient contact, it was few and far between. The majority of the time was spent doing janitorial work, which sucked since the hospital wasn't understaffed and financially it did just fine. @LizzyM has a point that some hospitals are definitely understaffed and are reliant on volunteers to get a lot of things done, but this doesn't occur at all of them. Had I gone to inner-city Chicago, I likely would have experienced this. Even so, I spent a few months during my third year rotations at a inner-city hospital, and it wasn't understaffed and was run like a well-oiled machine. Also, despite disliking my janitorial duties, I really enjoy the patient contact to this day as a medical student.



If @baratheonfire is performing so poorly, then the volunteer coordinator would go ahead and let them go and get another volunteer to cover the shift. At hospitals that are around large universities, there is always this specific group of students that are always incredibly willing to do volunteer work, but I can't seem to remember who they are or what they are studying! :rolleyes: But anyway, one's performance on a job is all relative. For instance, let's compare this again to the corporate employee model. For every employee, managers might have different opinions and ratings in an evaluation. One can rate an employee as being 4/5, while another can rate them as being 2/5. Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't stay beyond 5PM if they came in at 9AM? Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't do more work than is assigned to them? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take a full hour or even slightly longer for lunch? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take really long poop breaks to read stuff on their phone? All of these can describe employees which do at least the bare minimum of work that is assigned to them and can be rated on different levels based on different managers.

I can tell from your posts that you were an "honorary member of the hospital team" since you put forth as much as effort as possible during your shifts. I think that the employees greatly appreciate such service. At the same time, you'll have people all the way down to the other end of the spectrum, which includes people that will sit in a corner doing their own thing, and then do the bare minimum when asked. If these volunteers at the other end of the spectrum are doing something wrong, then the volunteer coordinator has all the reason to fire them. If these volunteers are really doing something wrong and the volunteer coordinator isn't doing anything about it, then it's the volunteer coordinator that is doing something wrong, and perhaps it is the volunteer coordinator that is being lazy and "unethical" themselves!

Now if baratheonfire was signing in, then ditching the shift, then coming back to sign out; then that would be a whole other story! But as for one's level of performance, then that's all relative and it's up to the volunteer coordinator or whoever is in charge to make that determination.
YES SOMEONE ELSE ACTUALLY GETS IT
 
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A little late to the party, but people who lie on their hours, will probably eventually lie about something else and end up losing their career. I recall a professor at my Uni who never checked ID's of people taking tests because if they were willing to hire a pro to take a test, they would eventually likely fail later in life.

It's not a question of whether this person's hours are well spent at the hospital; it's a question of his integrity (or rather, lack thereof).

This isn't about lying on AMCAS. This is about something different.

I was at my pre-med club's summer meeting, and I was talking to one guy that is part of a volunteering program in the nearby hospital. He says that for the first 50 hours of the program, he went to all his shifts and stayed there the whole time, to get some clinical experience. However, he said that after the first 40 hours, he just started going in to the hospital's lobby, signing in (on the sign-in sheet), and going back home. He did this until he met the 200 hour requirement. So basically, in reality he's not going to his volunteer shifts anymore, but if someone looks at the sign-in sheets, they'll think he is and give him credit for the hours.

My question is, what can be done about this? Will the hospital find out? Would medical schools be able to find out? If he puts 200 hours on the AMCAS, then even if ADCOMS call the hospital to verify, the hospital would just check the sign-in sheet records and see that he "volunteered" 200 hours even though he actually didn't (he just signed in and left). Its not fair that he's getting away with that while everyone else has to work for it.
 
If @baratheonfire is performing so poorly, then the volunteer coordinator would go ahead and let them go and get another volunteer to cover the shift. At hospitals that are around large universities, there is always this specific group of students that are always incredibly willing to do volunteer work, but I can't seem to remember who they are or what they are studying! :rolleyes: But anyway, one's performance on a job is all relative. For instance, let's compare this again to the corporate employee model. For every employee, managers might have different opinions and ratings in an evaluation. One can rate an employee as being 4/5, while another can rate them as being 2/5. Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't stay beyond 5PM if they came in at 9AM? Would an employee be "unethical" if they don't do more work than is assigned to them? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take a full hour or even slightly longer for lunch? Would an employee be "unethical" if they take really long poop breaks to read stuff on their phone? All of these can describe employees which do at least the bare minimum of work that is assigned to them and can be rated on different levels based on different managers.

I can tell from your posts that you were an "honorary member of the hospital team" since you put forth as much as effort as possible during your shifts. I think that the employees greatly appreciate such service. At the same time, you'll have people all the way down to the other end of the spectrum, which includes people that will sit in a corner doing their own thing, and then do the bare minimum when asked. If these volunteers at the other end of the spectrum are doing something wrong, then the volunteer coordinator has all the reason to fire them. If these volunteers are really doing something wrong and the volunteer coordinator isn't doing anything about it, then it's the volunteer coordinator that is doing something wrong, and perhaps it is the volunteer coordinator that is being lazy and "unethical" themselves!

Now if baratheonfire was signing in, then ditching the shift, then coming back to sign out; then that would be a whole other story! But as for one's level of performance, then that's all relative and it's up to the volunteer coordinator or whoever is in charge to make that determination.

I really don't see what the difference is between doing your homework on the floor, in the lobby, or at home. Either way, you are making yourself unavailable for work. If he doesn't want to be there, he shouldn't be. And he is not dishonest for what he is doing so much as how he is going to portray it. This has nothing to do with my superiority as a volunteer or whatever. If you believe he is going to honestly describe his experience on his application then I have a bridge to sell you (and let's not forget that he originally described it himself as cheating!)

All that being said, I was probably too harsh on him last night and I don't really want to bash him any further.

It's not a question of whether this person's hours are well spent at the hospital; it's a question of his integrity (or rather, lack thereof).
Exactly
 
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I really don't see what the difference is between doing your homework on the floor, in the lobby, or at home. Either way, you are making yourself unavailable for work. If he doesn't want to be there, he shouldn't be. And he is not dishonest for what he is doing so much as how he is going to portray it. This has nothing to do with my superiority as a volunteer or whatever. If you believe he is going to honestly describe his experience on his application then I have a bridge to sell you (and let's not forget that he originally described it himself as cheating!)

All that being said, I was probably too harsh on him last night and I don't really want to bash him any further.


Exactly
You know Imperius was talking about a different guy right?
But anyway, you have your opinion made up and you will go to any length to justify it, so have fun.
 
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You know Imperius was talking about a different guy right?
But anyway, you have your opinion made up and you will go to any length to justify it, so have fun.
If you don't want to discuss this any further (and I feel the same way), then you shouldn't try and call me out in posts that aren't even directed towards you. Especially when you continue to fail to actually address any of the criticisms leveled against you. But yeah, we are going to have to "agree to disagree" since this is going nowhere fast.
 
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