Fired Professor

[AbnormalPsych]

Has anyone else been following this story?:

NYU Professor Says He Was Fired After 80+ Students Complain Class Was Too Hard ​

NYU Professor Says He Was Fired After 80 Students Complain Class Was Too Hard

There is a growing debate over the firing of an NYU chemistry professor, who said the difficulty of his class ultimately led to his dismissal.

www.nbcnewyork.com

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion: This fired chemistry professor’s example shows what’s wrong with academia​

Opinion: This fired chemistry professor's example shows what's wrong with academia | CNN

The case of one chemistry professor at NYU raises important questions, argues Jill Filipovic, chief among them how much power students, who universities seem to increasingly think of as consumers (and some of whom think of themselves that way), should have in the hiring, retention and firing of...

www.cnn.com

"And NYU seems to have given away the game when Marc A. Walters, the director of undergraduate studies in the chemistry department, wrote an email to Jones before his firing. Quoting from that email, the Times said that Walters explained to Jones that a plan allowing students to have their grades reviewed or to withdraw retroactively from his class was a way to “extend a gentle but firm hand to the students and those who pay the tuition bills.” There are real consequences, though, to making higher education primarily palatable to those paying tuition bills – particularly when it comes to courses like organic chemistry, which are intended to be difficult. Future medical students do in fact need a rigorous science background in order to be successful doctors someday. Whether or not Jones was an effective teacher for aspiring medical students is up for debate, but in firing him, NYU is effectively dodging questions about the line between academic rigor and student well-being with potentially life-and-death matters at stake."

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[WisNeuro]

Yeah, I read this a couple days ago, utterly ridiculous. Every day we get closer and closer to making Idiocracy a reality.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Has anyone else been following this story?:

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion: This fired chemistry professor’s example shows what’s wrong with academia​

Opinion: This fired chemistry professor's example shows what's wrong with academia | CNN

The case of one chemistry professor at NYU raises important questions, argues Jill Filipovic, chief among them how much power students, who universities seem to increasingly think of as consumers (and some of whom think of themselves that way), should have in the hiring, retention and firing of...

www.cnn.com

"And NYU seems to have given away the game when Marc A. Walters, the director of undergraduate studies in the chemistry department, wrote an email to Jones before his firing. Quoting from that email, the Times said that Walters explained to Jones that a plan allowing students to have their grades reviewed or to withdraw retroactively from his class was a way to “extend a gentle but firm hand to the students and those who pay the tuition bills.” There are real consequences, though, to making higher education primarily palatable to those paying tuition bills – particularly when it comes to courses like organic chemistry, which are intended to be difficult. Future medical students do in fact need a rigorous science background in order to be successful doctors someday. Whether or not Jones was an effective teacher for aspiring medical students is up for debate, but in firing him, NYU is effectively dodging questions about the line between academic rigor and student well-being with potentially life-and-death matters at stake."

I'll never forget teaching large undergrad courses in psychology in grad school (20+ years ago) and being amazed at just how few students were there with a drive to actually, you know...learn. And the entitlement. Many had the notion that if they just showed up most of the time and tried to take the test that they should be guaranteed at least a 'B' grade (regardless of whether they understood the material or answered questions correctly). And, even back then, I remember feeling uneasy at the 'power' they wielded through student 'satisfaction' scores and the absolutely crystal clear realization that the best way for me to get the best student 'satisfaction' ratings would have been for me to make the course and exams as painless, as easy, and as meaningless as possible.

I can only imagine how much worse it's become in the past 20 years.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I'll never forget teaching large undergrad courses in psychology in grad school (20+ years ago) and being amazed at just how few students were there with a drive to actually, you know...learn. And the entitlement. Many had the notion that if they just showed up most of the time and tried to take the test that they should be guaranteed at least a 'B' grade (regardless of whether they understood the material or answered questions correctly). And, even back then, I remember feeling uneasy at the 'power' they wielded through student 'satisfaction' scores and the absolutely crystal clear realization that the best way for me to get the best student 'satisfaction' ratings would have been for me to make the course and exams as painless, as easy, and as meaningless as possible.

I can only imagine how much worse it's become in the past 20 years.

The past 2 years alone, have been shocking.

Grade inflation is wild and entitlement is at an all time high. It is an exchange of time and money for goods (grade and degree) and customer service model in many places now and learned helplessness is real.

When I have a student that actually wants to learn psychology, it makes my day.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

It's the Burger King generation "have it your way." Gotta love cancel culture...glad I'm not a professor, oh wait, I am lol.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Have it your way, and just the delay of where these adults should be developmentally.

Its interesting. Many of them cannot grasp why there are deadlines and why things can't be turned in whenever they please. Many do not know how to study. And many others are shocked to learn that they need to dedicate time to learning outside of the course hours. They work jobs, have social and religious commitments, 'self care' time on the weekends, and get mad that they are told they also take on the role of student. Then blame the professor, as the student had to teach themselves! The horror.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

That being said, some of that prof's emails to students were leaked and they were a bit over the line.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

That being said, some of that prof's emails to students were leaked and they were a bit over the line.

I used to teach for a state college back in Ohio a couple of years ago - mind you, they were all undergrads taking my intro to psych class. I remember having several students demonstrating that entitled behavior. They'd spend a month or so without turning in assignments then wonder why they were failing, or, it seemed like their family members were just dying off left and right as an excuse to turn in late assignments. I had one student who was pretty pathological and decided to pull a "Karen" and went to the dean of the college to complain about me. I stood my ground and told them, "you can fire me or let me do my job, I honestly don't care, it's up to you." I showed them various email exchanges I had with this particular student to demonstrate that I was more than accommodating, especially when they had a letter for academic accommodations. I followed that letter to..."the letter." They failed to live up to their end and I held them accountable. Luckily, the dean and other staff members supported me.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The abuse of reasonable accommodations for disabilities is rampant and has not been helpful for many of my patients. As Scott Peck, MD started his book, The Road Less Traveled, "life is difficult". Once people accept this and learn to overcome obstacles, the better they feel about themselves.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Have it your way, and just the delay of where these adults should be developmentally.

Its interesting. Many of them cannot grasp why there are deadlines and why things can't be turned in whenever they please. Many do not know how to study. And many others are shocked to learn that they need to dedicate time to learning outside of the course hours. They work jobs, have social and religious commitments, 'self care' time on the weekends, and get mad that they are told they also take on the role of student. Then blame the professor, as the student had to teach themselves! The horror.

Amen. I've joked with colleagues that the next DSM needs a section on the varieties of 'Adult Developmental Disorder'

823.45 Adult Developmental Disorder, Chronic, Severe With Psychotic Features and Rapid Cycling Gender Identity

 

[PsyDr]

Everyone forgets that ester bonds change if you really really really just can't even today.

The abuse of reasonable accommodations for disabilities is rampant and has not been helpful for many of my patients. As Scott Peck, MD started his book, The Road Less Traveled, "life is difficult". Once people accept this and learn to overcome obstacles, the better they fell about themselves.

Psychology moved from helping people overcome challenges, to telling people they were not able to do things… a long time ago.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Everyone forgets that ester bonds change if you really really really just can't even today.


Psychology moved from helping people overcome challenges, to telling people they were not able to do things… a long time ago.

The "normalization" movement bastardized a lot of our work. Everything has become normalized to the point where we have a society that doesn't really see boundaries as being legitimate, but more-so just suggestions or, a relic of times-past.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Eh, I've had entitled students who were traditional and entitled students who were non-trad. Honestly, some of the non-trad ones have been the worst, but again, some have been great. Every generation thinks the younger generations are entitled and lazy.

 

[PsyDr]

The "normalization" movement bastardized a lot of our work. Everything has become normalized to the point where we have a society that doesn't really see boundaries as being legitimate, but more-so just suggestions or, a relic of times-past.

Social mobility has gone down. People look for an upper hand. ”I can’t” is more socially advantageous than “I can improve”.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Social mobility has gone down. People look for an upper hand. ”I can’t” is more socially advantageous than “I can improve”.

Indeed.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Good point. I find that true in both my classroom and the therapy room.

 

[Sanman]

I personally think the articles missed a bit of perspective here. I see the same issues play out in my assisted living facilities, so I think it has very little to do with age. Employees are paid poorly and customers are expecting VIP service for the money they pay. At 75k/yr, the stakes of not succeeding are high and it sounds like students want all kinds of extras for that kind of money. However, you are not getting that from contract professors.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

I personally think the articles missed a bit of perspective here. I see the same issues play out in my assisted living facilities, so I think it has very little to do with age. Employees are paid poorly and customers are expecting VIP service for the money they pay. At 75k/yr, the stakes of not succeeding are high and it sounds like students want all kinds of extras for that kind of money. However, you are not getting that from contract professors.

I had students sign contracts. It was in my syllabus. By having documented and signed attestations from them they reviewed the syllabus, and that I also reviewed it with them, any deviation from it would be enforced within the applicable parameters. My first semester teaching taught me I had to beef up my "informed consent" when it came to teaching. I always referenced my syllabus when I would put in grades and track progress across the classes/sections and have class announcements about overall performance. This way, no one had the excuse of "I didn't know." So, if push came to shove and I had to have another "it's come to my attention" calls with the dean, I had plenty of evidence and data to support my efforts.

 

[futureapppsy2]

That being said, some of that prof's emails to students were leaked and they were a bit over the line.

Do you have a link to these? I'd love to read them.

On that note, I kind of wonder if this is a case of being a subject matter expert but not being the best at teaching/explaining it. That can be an issue at times.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Do you have a link to these? I'd love to read them.

On that note, I kind of wonder if this is a case of being a subject matter expert but not being the best at teaching/explaining it. That can be an issue at times.

According to CNN, this professor was previous tenured at Princeton, had published a very important textbook, and was well-regarded by past students. Evidently he took on this contract role with NYU after he retired from Princeton. It seems that he was mostly well-regarded and won teaching awards at NYU. Even in their petition, the students did not request the professor to be fired.

 

[Sanman]

Reading the comments on the NY Times article is a bit hilarious. Many discuss the point that O. Chem is a weed out course for medical school and that it should not be dumbed down for future healthcare professionals. Back when I was in undergrad they had a Chem, Bio, and O Chem for pre-med bio majors and a simpler version of the course for my friends in the nursing program that did not count for pre-meds. The next time these folks visit their PCP and an NP sees them, they may want to reconsider their opinions.

 

[futureapppsy2]

According to CNN, this professor was previous tenured at Princeton, had published a very important textbook, and was well-regarded by past students. Evidently he took on this contract role with NYU after he retired from Princeton. It seems that he was mostly well-regarded and won teaching awards at NYU. Even in their petition, the students did not request the professor to be fired.

The comments in this thread prompted that:

Definitely don't think the professor should have been fired--just that "extremely hard class" and "subject matter expert" can mean an excellent teacher, a terrible teacher, or anything in betweem.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

The comments in this thread prompted that:

Definitely don't think the professor should have been fired--just that "extremely hard class" and "subject matter expert" can mean an excellent teacher, a terrible teacher, or anything in betweem.

Not sure if I gave you the impression that I was in disagreement with your previous comment. Very much the contrary. I was just adding more information to the situation. I didn't want to assume anything. Alternatively, I am not a big fan of "well he was mean to me" being a justification to axe someone.

 

[quickpsych]

According to CNN, this professor was previous tenured at Princeton, had published a very important textbook, and was well-regarded by past students. Evidently he took on this contract role with NYU after he retired from Princeton. It seems that he was mostly well-regarded and won teaching awards at NYU. Even in their petition, the students did not request the professor to be fired.

Well like many industries and areas , society has allowed many places to be overrun and thus run by people who don’t always understand what they are running , and run everything based off productivity numbers, profit, and “customer” satisfaction.

This shift even in our field and healthcare in general of “consumers” really dilutes roles and settings and unfortunately a lot of people out there expect to be sold a product and satisfied instead of educated or treated.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they fired him because some satisfaction survey manager was afraid this predicted lower satisfaction surveys down the line.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Well like many industries and areas , society has allowed many places to be overrun and thus run by people who don’t always understand what they are running , and run everything based off productivity numbers, profit, and “customer” satisfaction.

This shift even in our field and healthcare in general of “consumers” really dilutes roles and settings and unfortunately a lot of people out there expect to be sold a product and satisfied instead of educated or treated.

Indeed - the moment I started seeing language to the effect of "customer service" and it being intermingled with "student-centered" approaches, I knew it was not heading in a good direction. Words matter, and time has proven that it's not really the label or words that matter (sometimes they can), but it's the meaning we ascribe to them that takes that word or concept to a level where it can have an impact (negative, positive, or neutral). So, I think with more universities touting this customer service approach, they've effectively framed the university experience as a simple exchange of money for services. People have taken the concept of "student-centered" to really mean Burger King quality customer service. "I give you $100K in tuition, I expect my B.A./B.S. degree no questions asked." I am dramatizing this a bit, but the point remains.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Do you have a link to these? I'd love to read them.

On that note, I kind of wonder if this is a case of being a subject matter expert but not being the best at teaching/explaining it. That can be an issue at times.

I'm trying to find it but the post on Reddit now look deleted. So, who knows. But I found this. The 11 page document outlining their grievances with his handling of the course: https://nyunews.com/wp-content/uplo...I-Concerns-Meeting-Washington-Square-News.pdf

Edit: Here was the post with email screenshots that got removed:

https:// www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/xweoeg/the_more_that_i_read_about_this_case_and_the_more/

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'm trying to find it but the post on Reddit now look deleted. So, who knows. But I found this. The 11 page document outlining their grievances with his handling of the course: https://nyunews.com/wp-content/uplo...I-Concerns-Meeting-Washington-Square-News.pdf

Thanks--very interesting! Some of the comments seem legit (little/no feedback on labs, no way to understand how they are doing in the class grade-wise, no accommodations for a student who had lost a family member, etc), but many seem like total BS (angry the class takes any time at all, thinking the professor somehow needs to accommodate that LGBTQ+ students experience minority stress, etc).

 

[jdawg2017]

It's honestly crap like this that makes me re-consider my desire to work at universities with undergrads. Even with excellent teaching evaluations that I received at a SLAC I taught for last year (at the request of the department due to a faculty member dying in the summer), I still got some BS feedback. One student was mad at me that SPSS doesn't make an iPad app (they somehow thought they could get through college without owning even a laptop that is cheaper than an iPad, lol). Another was mad that I taught SPSS (which still has the best learner-friendly GUI for non-comp-sci folks, IMO) and not R. You really can't please everyone.

I don't want to fall into the thinking trap that younger generations are "lazy," and I actually had some really bright students who were miles ahead of where I was as an undergrad. I am, however, genuinely concerned about the current generation of students for whom some or most of their late high-school/early college years were during the pandemic. Numerous students I had thought they could not show up to class, not watch recordings, and somehow get As on my exams... even some students though that "going on spring break" was an excuse to re-take an exam that I had two weeks after spring break ended. Other students were explicitly mad at me in my evals for enforcing our university mask policy in class.

IDK how you full-time profs do it. God bless you, because despite me loving teaching this experience steered me pretty fully toward a career in an AMC or VA.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's honestly crap like this that makes me re-consider my desire to work at universities with undergrads. Even with excellent teaching evaluations that I received at a SLAC I taught for last year (at the request of the department due to a faculty member dying in the summer), I still got some BS feedback. One student was mad at me that SPSS doesn't make an iPad app (they somehow thought they could get through college without owning even a laptop that is cheaper than a computer). Another was mad that I taught SPSS (which still has the best learner-friendly GUI for non-comp-sci folks, IMO) and not R. You really can't please everyone.

I don't want to fall into the thinking trap that younger generations are "lazy," and I actually had some really bright students who were miles ahead of where I was as an undergrad. I am, however, genuinely concerned about the current generation of students for whom some or most of their late high-school/early college years were during the pandemic. Numerous students I had thought they could not show up to class, not watch recordings, and somehow get As on my exams... even some students though that "going on spring break" was an excuse to re-take an exam that I had two weeks after spring break ended. Other students were explicitly mad at me in my evals for enforcing our university mask policy in class.

IDK how you full-time profs do it. God bless you, because despite me loving teaching this experience steered me pretty fully toward a career in an AMC or VA.

My favorite when I was teaching was a student who, at about 2 weeks prior to the final exam, was failing terribly asked me what they needed to get a B in the class. I simply told them "retake the class" and showed them how even if they got a 100% on the final, the best that they could accomplish was a D. Obviously, they then talked about the unfairness of it all, despite never showing up to any office hours or contacting me once throughout the semester.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

It's honestly crap like this that makes me re-consider my desire to work at universities with undergrads. Even with excellent teaching evaluations that I received at a SLAC I taught for last year (at the request of the department due to a faculty member dying in the summer), I still got some BS feedback. One student was mad at me that SPSS doesn't make an iPad app (they somehow thought they could get through college without owning even a laptop that is cheaper than a computer). Another was mad that I taught SPSS (which still has the best learner-friendly GUI for non-comp-sci folks, IMO) and not R. You really can't please everyone.

I don't want to fall into the thinking trap that younger generations are "lazy," and I actually had some really bright students who were miles ahead of where I was as an undergrad. I am, however, genuinely concerned about the current generation of students for whom some or most of their late high-school/early college years were during the pandemic. Numerous students I had thought they could not show up to class, not watch recordings, and somehow get As on my exams... even some students though that "going on spring break" was an excuse to re-take an exam that I had two weeks after spring break ended. Other students were explicitly mad at me in my evals for enforcing our university mask policy in class.

IDK how you full-time profs do it. God bless you, because despite me loving teaching this experience steered me pretty fully toward a career in an AMC or VA.

I'm working as an outpatient provider at VA and--as much as I complain about it--hearing stories like these confirms that I made the right choice by not to trying to have an academic career. I found the prospect of teaching undergrad-level material too boring and the prospect of anything else too likely to devolve into constant grant-chasing and trend-chasing in an endless grad-school-for-life-like existence. It seems that the movement to topple often-legitimate authority figures (professors, physicians, doctoral-level providers) is only resulting in an authority vacuum that is quickly filled by ostensibly hyper-moralistic LARPers who don't have a clue what they're doing and only really are in it for the power, control, or money.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

It's honestly crap like this that makes me re-consider my desire to work at universities with undergrads. Even with excellent teaching evaluations that I received at a SLAC I taught for last year (at the request of the department due to a faculty member dying in the summer), I still got some BS feedback. One student was mad at me that SPSS doesn't make an iPad app (they somehow thought they could get through college without owning even a laptop that is cheaper than a computer). Another was mad that I taught SPSS (which still has the best learner-friendly GUI for non-comp-sci folks, IMO) and not R. You really can't please everyone.

I don't want to fall into the thinking trap that younger generations are "lazy," and I actually had some really bright students who were miles ahead of where I was as an undergrad. I am, however, genuinely concerned about the current generation of students for whom some or most of their late high-school/early college years were during the pandemic. Numerous students I had thought they could not show up to class, not watch recordings, and somehow get As on my exams... even some students though that "going on spring break" was an excuse to re-take an exam that I had two weeks after spring break ended. Other students were explicitly mad at me in my evals for enforcing our university mask policy in class.

IDK how you full-time profs do it. God bless you, because despite me loving teaching this experience steered me pretty fully toward a career in an AMC or VA.

This is why I like being a professor at a AMC that's an additional duty to my main job, which is being a psychologist with the VA. My teaching really focuses on med. students, residents, psych interns and post-docs, giving grand rounds and other didactics. The demographics of students I am teaching is far different than other settings, so I thank my stars for that. The more I see news highlights about professors being fired or brought in front of their university board because the professor had a starkly different viewpoint than maybe the typical viewpoints one might come across in a university setting...they are canceled. It really sucks because you have brilliant professors who don't tote the typical politically-driven sentiments on campus, and that deviation becomes the focus of ridicule by others. It's completely counterintuitive to the whole idea of the university setting being a place where ideas, no matter how discrepant or different can be discussed openly. Now it's "well, sure, we value free speech, except XYZ, then we shut you down."

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks--very interesting! Some of the comments seem legit (little/no feedback on labs, no way to understand how they are doing in the class grade-wise, no accommodations for a student who had lost a family member, etc), but many seem like total BS (angry the class takes any time at all, thinking the professor somehow needs to accommodate that LGBTQ+ students experience minority stress, etc).

Some are legitimate complaints, sure, but enough to fire a professor?

 

[borne_before]

Both are probably true:

(a) this professor is probably a bad teacher for organic chemistry.
(b) the NYU students complaints are overly coddled.

But how cringe is that he retired from Princeton and still taught into his mid 80s. It's like, get a life, bro. The guy was 85. It's possible that students were annoyed to deal with an elder boomer in his mid 80s.

 

[cara susanna]

Both are probably true:

(a) this professor is probably a bad teacher for organic chemistry.
(b) the NYU students complaints are overly coddled.

But how cringe is that he retired from Princeton and still taught into his mid 80s. It's like, get a life, bro. The guy was 85. It's possible that students were annoyed to deal with an elder boomer in his mid 80s.

Thank you for reminding me of the dialectic Reading the NYT comments, it sounds like this dude was a great teacher in the earlier years, though.

 

[allantois]

I'll never forget teaching large undergrad courses in psychology in grad school (20+ years ago) and being amazed at just how few students were there with a drive to actually, you know...learn. And the entitlement. Many had the notion that if they just showed up most of the time and tried to take the test that they should be guaranteed at least a 'B' grade (regardless of whether they understood the material or answered questions correctly). And, even back then, I remember feeling uneasy at the 'power' they wielded through student 'satisfaction' scores and the absolutely crystal clear realization that the best way for me to get the best student 'satisfaction' ratings would have been for me to make the course and exams as painless, as easy, and as meaningless as possible.

I can only imagine how much worse it's become in the past 20 years.

This starts with their parents and K-12 schools

 

[Sanman]

Thank you for reminding me of the dialectic Reading the NYT comments, it sounds like this dude was a great teacher in the earlier years, though.

Some of this was hinted at in the back and forth. However, it can be that one is a knowledgeable professor, but unable to navigate the steep increase in technological savviness expected since the pandemic given his age and likely familiarity with the tech.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Some of this was hinted at in the back and forth. However, it can be that one is a knowledgeable professor, but unable to navigate the steep increase in technological savviness expected since the pandemic given his age and likely familiarity with the tech.

Also. it wouldn't shock me if there was some, even subclinical, cognitive decline by 84 that may have shown up in teaching clarity, etc.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Hopefully, with all this press coverage, this professor will get tons of great offers to select from as he coasts through his retirement years and teaches in a a value-congruent manner....and then maybe NYU will recognize their error and make a public apology. Wishful thinking, but it nonetheless deserving.

 

[borne_before]

Also. it wouldn't shock me if there was some, even subclinical, cognitive decline by 84 that may have shown up in teaching clarity, etc.

Dude might even been a cracker jack compared to other 84 year olds. But, he prolly is like molasses on a cold day compared to a youthful 78 year old.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

I hate to be "that guy," but this is dangerously flowing into an ageist conversation, so, just wanted to throw that out there for folks to be mindful of. Not accusing anybody of anything, but there is some themes beginning to emerge that I am hopeful we will be mindful of, myself included.

 

[Sanman]

Also. it wouldn't shock me if there was some, even subclinical, cognitive decline by 84 that may have shown up in teaching clarity, etc.

Most certainly as compared to a 40 or even 60 year old version of himself.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I hate to be "that guy," but this is dangerously flowing into an ageist conversation, so, just wanted to throw that out there for folks to be mindful of. Not accusing anybody of anything, but there is some themes beginning to emerge that I am hopeful we will be mindful of, myself included.

I don't know if it is really ageist or just realistic to recognize that cognitive abilities can decline with age.

 

[Sanman]

I hate to be "that guy," but this is dangerously flowing into an ageist conversation, so, just wanted to throw that out there for folks to be mindful of. Not accusing anybody of anything, but there is some themes beginning to emerge that I am hopeful we will be mindful of, myself included.

Sometimes ageism is reality. We don't all function at the same level throughout life. If we did, retirement would not be necessary ever.

That would make one wonder, is the specialty of geriatrics/geropsychology ageist?

 

[borne_before]

There's probably a recent phd in chem out there just dying for a job to open up too.

 

[smalltownpsych]

LOL - im def ageist. I'm not gonna be sorry about it either. We're not talking about a 55 year old who go laid off and has little skills. We're talking about if octogenarians experiencing normal age related patterns could be impaired, but normal.

Hey, I got laid off last year and I was 55! Ageism!!!

 

[Sanman]

Hey, I got laid off last year and I was 55! Ageism!!!

Who would have guessed that they no longer needed someone trained in bloodletting.

 

[Pragma]

There's probably a recent phd in chem out there just dying for a job to open up too.

Wasn’t he just an adjunct? That’s the other layer here I think

 

[texanpsychdoc]

I think this article nicely sums up my point. Additionally, if you read my previous comment, you will note I was not indicating any particular person was engaging in ageism per se, but it was drifting into that realm/ some themes were emerging, and depending on the context of how this professor's age was being spoken about and characterized, could lead to something that I think we as psychologists should be a bit more mindful of.

APA Council of Representatives passes resolution on ageism

The council noted that age is an important element of diversity and called upon the Association to reject age based discrimination and to work to stop ageism in society.

www.apa.org

 

[borne_before]

I think this article nicely sums up my point. Additionally, if you read my previous comment, you will note I was not indicating any particular person was engaging in ageism per se, but it was drifting into that realm/ some themes were emerging, and depending on the context of how this professor's age was being spoken about and characterized, could lead to something that I think we as psychologists should be a bit more mindful of.

APA Council of Representatives passes resolution on ageism

The council noted that age is an important element of diversity and called upon the Association to reject age based discrimination and to work to stop ageism in society.

www.apa.org

I'm all for diversity. We need more octogenarians fighting wars, digging trenches, programming computers, and opting out of social security if still working.

 

[Sanman]

I think this article nicely sums up my point. Additionally, if you read my previous comment, you will note I was not indicating any particular person was engaging in ageism per se, but it was drifting into that realm/ some themes were emerging, and depending on the context of how this professor's age was being spoken about and characterized, could lead to something that I think we as psychologists should be a bit more mindful of.

APA Council of Representatives passes resolution on ageism

The council noted that age is an important element of diversity and called upon the Association to reject age based discrimination and to work to stop ageism in society.

www.apa.org

Not saying you did. However, no one is calling him incompetent. We are however questioning if accounts of him being a great teacher in the past are the same as saying he is a great teacher now. Teaching is a very different job from even what it was in 2019. It is certainly possible that some people that were great are no longer. The opposite might also be true.