Grad School GPA - does it actually matter?

[rabbott1971]

Every applicant I can think of who came from law school had to do (or redo) the pre-reqs and take the MCAT. This typically gives us enough recent, pertinent academic data to make a decision on academic readiness. Depending on the rest of the package, the law school GPA (high or low) can be rationalized to fit any desired outcome.

I don't discount what @rabbott1971 is reporting, but the root problem in these discussions is that applicants see the front of the shop and adcoms live in the back of the shop. Our admissions dean tells the people answering the phones what to say, and directs the screeners to administer various formulas and rubrics to try and make cursory sense of each of application. The third party software we use to extract and sort AMCAS data came preconfigured with all sorts of inclinations, ones that keep the IT people busy.

The bottom line is that just because the front of the shop does something, like generate an overall GPA using all available coursework regardless of source, doesn't mean it provides any utility to the committee. We tear applications apart to look at the entrails; that means the whole story, as best we can reassemble it, with each element viewed in context.

Its true that I don't see the sausage factory from the inside. Thanks for your input.

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[rabbott1971]

They are essentially uninterpretable, but no one would try to say (in committee) that good law school grades are evidence of readiness for medical school.
Bad law school grades would certainly be viewed darkly (especially by someone who already didn't want the applicant).

So they can't help but can hurt? That's swell. Can you explain why you say they're uninterpretable?

 

[Goro]

So they can't help but can hurt? That's swell. Can you explain why you say they're uninterpretable?

Can courses in Constitutional Law, Climate Change Law and Policy, Energy Regulation, or Civil Procedure really tell us if you can handle med school coursework? I submit that they can't.

 

[gyngyn]

So they can't help but can hurt? That's swell. Can you explain why you say they're uninterpretable?

We don't have a means of comparison since most applicants don't have law school grades.
We don't know how individual law schools may differ in their grading.

Many admissions committee members have taught graduate school courses and have had the experience that an A is the expected grade and the most common one given. One might therefore assume that law school is similar.

 

[rabbott1971]

Can courses in Constitutional Law, Climate Change Law and Policy, Energy Regulation, or Civil Procedure really tell us if you can handle med school coursework? I submit that they can't.

Not from the standpoint of subject-matter of coursework, but it is completion of an advanced degree, which arguably shows academic hardiness and a likelihood of successfully completing another advanced professional degree.

I don't wish to argue medical school admissions theory per se. In my case, I would be happy for them to pretend I never went to law school. That's what I was doing when I believed I met the cutoff for GPA. The comment of mine you quoted was simply to say, if it can't help, it doesn't seem fair to let it hurt (if success doesn't indicate good med school chances, why does failure indicate poor med school chances?). But this is really an aside, and the gist of what I'm saying is, although your program may not care about law school GPA, many others do.

We don't have a means of comparison since most applicants don't have law school grades.
We don't know how individual law schools may differ in their grading.

Many admissions committee members have taught graduate school courses and have had the experience that an A is the expected grade and the most common one given. One might therefore assume that law school is similar

Thanks for the response. I don't begrudge your opinions and your program's decision to disregard law school grades. My point simply is to make people aware that this is not a universally held view among all programs, so that premeds are given good information.

 

[Goro]

Not from the standpoint of subject-matter of coursework, but it is completion of an advanced degree, which arguably shows academic hardiness and a likelihood of successfully completing another advanced professional degree.

Motivations and work ethics are one thing, but the actually ability to handle med school, for us, can only be discerned by your handling rigorous coursework in t e sciences, especially the biological ones.

I don't wish to argue medical school admissions theory per se. In my case, I would be happy for them to pretend I never went to law school. That's what I was doing when I believed I met the cutoff for GPA. The comment of mine you quoted was simply to say, if it can't help, it doesn't seem fair to let it hurt (if success doesn't indicate good med school chances, why does failure indicate poor med school chances?). But this is really an aside, and the gist of what I'm saying is, although your program may not care about law school GPA, many others do.
I'm not following the arc of your application trajectory. Are you saying that of the schools you applied to, two of them (out of X) specifically stated that "we calculate GPAs based upon ALL coursework?" If not tis, what exactly did the schools say or do relative to your law school GPA?

And did this negatively impact you?

Thanks for the response. I don't begrudge your opinions and your program's decision to disregard law school grades. My point simply is to make people aware that this is not a universally held view among all programs, so that premeds are given good information.

Well, at least two MD schools require LORs from doctors, but that's 2 out ~140 MD schools. So, do we really have to qualify it when we say "you don't need a doctor's LOR for your med school app?". because what we see is that for MD schools in general (more than that, actually), ignore GPAs from professional schools and research MS programs. And not all schools reward reinvention either, an so seem to ignore SMPs or post-bacs.

 

[rabbott1971]

I'm not following the arc of your application trajectory. Are you saying that of the schools you applied to, two of them (out of X) specifically stated that "we calculate GPAs based upon ALL coursework?" If not tis, what exactly did the schools say or do relative to your law school GPA?

Yes. I applied to two programs, both explicitly stated that they included my law school grades in their "overall GPA" which is used to screen applicants. This is why I mentioned above that this isn't a "back of the house" issue where I merely suspect something; it was explicitly stated.

 

[Med Ed]

Yes. I applied to two programs, both explicitly stated that they included my law school grades in their "overall GPA" which is used to screen applicants. This is why I mentioned above that this isn't a "back of the house" issue where I merely suspect something; it was explicitly stated.

When people on this forum ask about the impact of graduate GPA on their applications, they are typically asking about its consideration in committee post-interview. That's why most of the answers in this thread have ranged from "it doesn't matter" to "it's uninterpretable." Your issue arose in a different phase of the process, one where schools are oftentimes using blunt instruments to downsize their pools to manageable levels. Every school has a unique process for screening, and we all set our metric thresholds (and the means by which we calculate metrics) to balance sensitivity with specificity.

 

[rabbott1971]

When people on this forum ask about the impact of graduate GPA on their applications, they are typically asking about its consideration in committee post-interview. That's why most of the answers in this thread have ranged from "it doesn't matter" to "it's uninterpretable." Your issue arose in a different phase of the process, one where schools are oftentimes using blunt instruments to downsize their pools to manageable levels. Every school has a unique process for screening, and we all set our metric thresholds (and the means by which we calculate metrics) to balance sensitivity with specificity.

No, that has most definitely not been mentioned, in this thread or in other threads addressing this topic. Did you read the thread before where you were tagged? Quote any reference to this distinction you're identifying, if I missed it I will humbly apologize.

But taking your statement as your own argument, not the argument of others, it appears you are attempting to concede that medical schools do use graduate GPA, law GPA, in calculating an overall GPA for screening purposes (blunt instruments to downsize pools). So thank you, you agree with me, as this has been my contention all along. I guess we only disagree on whether other people have been saying this, or saying something else; we can let their comments speak for themselves.

As for your claim that in the "back of the house," graduate GPA and law GPA are not important, I guess I wouldn't know, but I never claimed to care, because I know for a fact that they're used to establish overall GPA for screening purposes. You're making a distinction without a difference, when the issue being examined is "does graduate GPA actually matter?" (see name of thread). So it won't really do to say in one breath "graduate and law GPA don't matter," and in the next breath, "well, except it does matter to establish basic eligibility, of course it matters then, that goes without saying!"

 

[Med Ed]

No, that has most definitely not been mentioned, in this thread or in other threads addressing this topic. Did you read the thread before where you were tagged? Quote any reference to this distinction you're identifying, if I missed it I will humbly apologize.

But taking your statement as your own argument, not the argument of others, it appears you are attempting to concede that medical schools do use graduate GPA, law GPA, in calculating an overall GPA for screening purposes (blunt instruments to downsize pools). So thank you, you agree with me, as this has been my contention all along. I guess we only disagree on whether other people have been saying this, or saying something else; we can let their comments speak for themselves.

As for your claim that in the "back of the house," graduate GPA and law GPA are not important, I guess I wouldn't know, but I never claimed to care, because I know for a fact that they're used to establish overall GPA for screening purposes. You're making a distinction without a difference, when the issue being examined is "does graduate GPA actually matter?" (see name of thread). So it won't really do to say in one breath "graduate and law GPA don't matter," and in the next breath, "well, except it does matter to establish basic eligibility, of course it matters then, that goes without saying!"

Try this instead.

 

[Catalystik]

A new private MD school in Fort Worth, Texas, expected to be available as an AMCAS choice in November 2018, is TCU and UNTHSC. Adcomms will include all college grades in their considerations. Thread with input by one of its Deans is here: 2018-2019 TCU and UNTHSC School of Medicine

(from the assistant dean of admissions)
"We roll up all college credit earned (as reflected on an official transcript) to determine the truest "overall" GPA that determines the invitation to receive a secondary. We have modeled several scenarios and have discovered students who may have had a less desired start to college actually fare nicely assuming they have strong scores thereafter." Thanks to wysdoc for providing this up to date info.

School site: https://mdschool.tcu.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/

 

[Robin-jay]

A new private MD school in Fort Worth, Texas, expected to be available as an AMCAS choice in November 2018, is TCU and UNTHSC. Adcomms will include all college grades in their considerations. Thread with input by one of its Deans is here: 2018-2019 TCU and UNTHSC School of Medicine

(from the assistant dean of admissions)
"We roll up all college credit earned (as reflected on an official transcript) to determine the truest "overall" GPA that determines the invitation to receive a secondary. We have modeled several scenarios and have discovered students who may have had a less desired start to college actually fare nicely assuming they have strong scores thereafter." Thanks to wysdoc for providing this up to date info.

School site: https://mdschool.tcu.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/

If I am reading this correctly, I 100% agree with this formulation. After being through rigorous graduate school coursework myself, I find it refreshing some MD schools are now accepting all forms of GPA, which finally means those with physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. advanced degrees showing a high upward trend will be more accurately represented.

 

[Robin-jay]

Many admissions committee members have taught graduate school courses and have had the experience that an A is the expected grade and the most common one given.

What type of graduate school did they teach?

Maybe anatomy, physiology, (some biology masters?)?

Physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. absolutely don't hand out A's like candy and absolutely don't have most students earning A's.

 

[gyngyn]

What type of graduate school did they teach?

Maybe anatomy, physiology, (some biology masters?)?

Physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. absolutely don't hand out A's like candy and absolutely don't have most students earning A's.

I'm reporting the experience that has produced the perception that graduate grades are inflated.

 

[Infinitely]

"Many admissions committee members have taught graduate school courses and have had the experience that an A is the expected grade and the most common one given."

This statement really freaks me out since my grad program does not give out many A's at all and we all work our heart out in the program. I don't think mine specially considered SMP but we take similar classes with first year medical school students, same books and all and THEY ARE INTENSE. It's kind of break my heart knowing that our hard work will be frowned upon because of this assumptions

 

[Robin-jay]

"Many admissions committee members have taught graduate school courses and have had the experience that an A is the expected grade and the most common one given."

This statement really freaks me out since my grad program does not give out many A's at all and we all work our heart out in the program. I don't think mine specially considered SMP but we take similar classes with first year medical school students, same books and all and THEY ARE INTENSE. It's kind of break my heart knowing that our hard work will be frowned upon because of this assumptions

Here is my experience:

1. If you go for DO schools, they care about your graduate GPA as much or even more than you undergrad. GPA, plus they calculate it in your science, overall, etc. GPA

2. MD schools are apparently starting to care more about graduate grades, although this trend is very young.

3. I've talked to many ADCOMs, via E-mail, phone, in person (including interviews) from both DO and MD schools, and I would have to say that most ADCOMs really do care about the extra work you put into your graduate degree.

 

[Goro]

What type of graduate school did they teach?

Maybe anatomy, physiology, (some biology masters?)?

Physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. absolutely don't hand out A's like candy and absolutely don't have most students earning A's.

Very few applicants come in with GPA resurrection via chem/physics/math graduate degrees. The vast majority do so via the biologic sciences.

 

[Goro]

If I am reading this correctly, I 100% agree with this formulation. After being through rigorous graduate school coursework myself, I find it refreshing some MD schools are now accepting all forms of GPA, which finally means those with physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. advanced degrees showing a high upward trend will be more accurately represented.

That's not what I'm reading from TCU. Rather, they're saying that strong UG years 2/3/4 will over come weak years 1/2...meaning, they want to see a nice rising GPA trend.

 

[857770]

What type of graduate school did they teach?

Maybe anatomy, physiology, (some biology masters?)?

Physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. absolutely don't hand out A's like candy and absolutely don't have most students earning A's.

YUP! Hands down. Additionally, one can't reach graduate levels in these fields without really understanding the difficult material in the first place. And it just gets much harder and much more difficult to earn As.

 

[Robin-jay]

That's not what I'm reading from TCU. Rather, they're saying that strong UG years 2/3/4 will over come weak years 1/2...meaning, they want to see a nice rising GPA trend.

Even so, its a on the right path to understanding that early grades in college aren't always reflective of the applicant as a whole.

 

[Goro]

Even so, its a on the right path to understanding that early grades in college aren't always reflective of the applicant as a whole.

We already know this, and that's why many schools reward reinvention and give more weight to the latter years, as opposed to the whole. This is nothing new.

Unfortunately, there are schools who are so overloaded with candidates who don't have red academic flags that they can afford to turn people away.