Had you published as first author before applying?

[FranklinR]

I'm just wondering who has published as first author BEFORE you submitted your latest application to a PhD/PsyD program.

For the record, I've got four publications, three as second author, one as third author, and have one interview so far (but from the school where I'm doing my MA, so I'm not sure it counts).

(PS: I'm trying to add a poll. If there's no poll, you'll know that didn't work so well.)

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[Ollie123]

Nope! Obviously it can be massively helpful, but don't think its expected most places.

I feel like authorship position and number of pubs can be misleading though. Really publications in general can. I know some incredibly weak applicants who applied with a pub or two in podunk journals and "Generic student newsletter weekly". (Not saying this is the case for you at all, just saying this has to be a big consideration when interpreting your poll ) It probably doesn't hurt most of the time, but when people think of publications being a way to seriously impress admissions folks, they aren't thinking of the folks who have padded their CV with 3 publications in "University journal of undergrad research".

 

[FranklinR]

I feel like authorship position and number of pubs can be misleading though. Really publications in general can. I know some incredibly weak applicants who applied with a pub or two in podunk journals and "Generic student newsletter weekly". (Not saying this is the case for you at all, just saying this has to be a big consideration when interpreting your poll ) It probably doesn't hurt most of the time, but when people think of publications being a way to seriously impress admissions folks, they aren't thinking of the folks who have padded their CV with 3 publications in "University journal of undergrad research".

The inspiration was actually a conversation with a professor who asked me:
"Have you published? As first author? Well, then..." As in: well, then, that doesn't count.

My publications are in medical journals, which he also dismissed. Which made me a little sad, a little irritated, a little gassy.

note: the gassy part is probably unrelated.

 

[cara susanna]

In the "Advice for Applicants" thread, the DCT said that it doesn't matter that much because they don't know how you got the authorship (the professor may be generous with publications, etc).

For a contrast, I have zero publications and three interview invites so far.

 

[JockNerd]

I'd be highly skeptical of someone who had published as first author before applying, unless it was the product of a year or two of RA work. The reason I say that is because at that level no one really has the skill to take the lead on a project from start to finish, which is the justification for being first author. The adviser should be taking the lead, in order to help educate the student about how good research is planned, conducted, analyzed, written, and published. Plus, given the length of time it takes to finally get something in press, you'd really have to have started the project in about your second year of college.

 

[terpskins10]

What about poster presentations, how are those interpreted by admissions?

 

[FranklinR]

In the "Advice for Applicants" thread, the DCT said that it doesn't matter that much because they don't know how you got the authorship (the professor may be generous with publications, etc).

I understand, and it's a good point. I wonder, though, whether letters of recommendation are viewed the same way - since there's no way to know how you got it, should we devalue it? If not, why not? Grades face a similar (but not identical) valuation problem. I would imagine that every evaluator of applications has their own criteria. Please understand, I'm not arguing at all. I'm trying to figure out the decision making process as best I'm able. Which really means looking at the inputs and outputs - the qualifications of those who actually get in.

 

[Ollie123]

The inspiration was actually a conversation with a professor who asked me:
"Have you published? As first author? Well, then..." As in: well, then, that doesn't count.

My publications are in medical journals, which he also dismissed. Which made me a little sad, a little irritated, a little gassy.

note: the gassy part is probably unrelated.

That's pretty rude about the medical journals. I'm not a big fan of them myself (they tend to be rather devoid of theory, and imo often focus too much on being "brief" rather than "good"), but that doesn't speak to individual articles, and regardless its probably more than most have done.

Its true first author definitely matters the most, but it really depends on the situation. Personally, I think 2nd or 3rd author on a decent publication can definitely be more work and more meaningful than 1st author on an absolute pile of crap. Of course there's always the labs that seem to include everyone from the PI on down to the UPS guy who delivered the equipment as an author.

JN - I agree for the most part, but I know some folks who published secondary analyses of an existing dataset as an undergrad. I think this is a little more reasonable to get out on time since that can often cut out a year of data collection. Though I still think it would be tough to get in press before applications without taking time off. Probably not nearly as good a learning experience, but half the time undergrad projects are just brief survey studies anyways, so I'm not sure one would miss out on much.

 

[KillerDiller]

I understand, and it's a good point. I wonder, though, whether letters of recommendation are viewed the same way - since there's no way to know how you got it, should we devalue it? If not, why not?

Shouldn't applicants' LORs say exactly how they know the recommender and why he or she is recommending them?

 

[FranklinR]

Shouldn't applicants' LORs say exactly how they know the recommender and why he or she is recommending them?

That's true, and the APA ethical guidelines are specific about what qualifies for authorship (and the UPS guy generally doesn't). Still, perhaps that extra information in the letter adds greater authority, or at least the appearance thereof.

 

[BamaPsych]

I have no pubs and 3 interviews so far. I'm sure it may help for some schools but so far it hasn't been a deal-breaker for me.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Yes, I first-authored 4 presentations at conferences of highly-reputable associations. These presentations were based on findings that were intended to become manuscripts; however, only one of the four is in the process of becoming a paper. Once I started my program, my time became significantly limited.

I worked in three close-knit research groups for many years before I applied to PhD programs, so my situation is an exception rather than a rule. These research groups were "manuscript/presentation machines" at a large academic medical center, so it was customary to be at least 3rd author on something and take the lead in something that you found interesting to further study. (I'm 2nd, 3rd, and 4th author on tons of stuff.) I post this not to stroke my own ego, but to advise that finding the right research job can really be supportive in your quest.

 

[psychedtobegrad]

Hi,

I don't have any publications yet, but I have submitted a paper for publication and I am working on two others that will be submitted soon (one as first author and the other not first author).
I know some people are skeptical about being able to be first author in your undergrad, but to be fair, I graduated over a year ago was working as an RA and heading my own studies in the mean time. I would not have had enough time just my undergrad.

 

[doktor yoyo]

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[dd123]

I have a review paper in press in a leading journal in my field of interest.

someone wrote: I'd be highly skeptical of someone who had published as first author before applying, unless it was the product of a year or two of RA work. The reason I say that is because at that level no one really has the skill to take the lead on a project from start to finish, which is the justification for being first author.

I completely disagree with this, and I also disagree that it'd have to be a result of RA work. I think that the poster sorely underestimates people's abilities.

I started a study in the summer before my 3rd year, which I'm quite sure I could have published, as first author, in additiont o my review paper. It was my research question, my design, I ran the Ps, analyzed, and am in the process of writing it up. I'm sure that it could have been published as well, except I decided to focus my time on my review paper since it went into review at the beginning of my 4th year.

 

[Rapunzel]

I was a regular columnist in a popular livestock publication for several years. Does that count for anything? No, I didn't mention that in my application. I only applied to one school, and did not get an interview. I like writing, and I would like to get some research experience, but it was not offered at all as part of my master's program, and my undergrad was about 20 years ago, and I had a different major, and undergraduate research was not emphasized much. Now I am working as a master's level counselor, but I still want more, and not having research experience seems to be holding me back. Is there anything that I can do at this point, or am I a lost cause now?

 

[cara susanna]

Can you find an RA job? Or even volunteer as one?

 

[Rapunzel]

I have been asking around about RA jobs, even volunteer, for five years. I have gotten jobs that give me clinical experience, but have not found research opportunities. When I have asked at universities, they tell me that those positions are reserved for enrolled students. I don't know of any other places to find research jobs. Maybe that is something I should know, and everybody knows except for me.

Time contraints make it difficult too. Now that my master's degree is finished, if I want to be on track to become fully licensed in my state, I would have to work full time for two years providing counseling. That wouldn't matter so much if I knew that I would have the chance to get a PhD, but I don't know that I ever will get that chance now. Neither did I have the time or energy for trying to get a research position while I was a full-time graduate student with a full-time job and a requirement to complete 20 hours per week (volunteer) for internship on top of that. I wanted to, and I just didn't have any energy left over. I have a family too. They haven't been sure that I still live here for some time now already. But I know that making excuses won't get me anywhere.

 

[airmont]

Rapunzel, I was in a similar situation but managed to get lots of research experience. Don`t give up. Many non-academic psychologists, especially recent graduates, would like to to research but just don`t have the time. I've published/presented data collected at an outpatient clinic with no academic affiliation. The director (Psy.D.) badly wanted to research but needed someone to do the data collection, literature reviews etc.

You can also contact 4th or 5th year graduate students. They often have projects that they don`t have the time for, and are generally a lot more approachable than faculty. I got in touch with a Ph.D. student working on his dissertation, worked on his project for awhile, and then started my own project together with him.

You probably won`t get paid, and it may take time to find the right person. However, you will get better experience and learn more this way. RA'ing for an established lab in the begining is just grunt work with liitle opportunity to do data analyis, article/poster writing. Faculty have many younger students willing to work for them, and will not accomodate an "adult" lifestyle or mindset. On the other hand, graduate students/non-academic psychologist may be more flexible, and happy to have a free RA. Good Luck!!

 

[numbereight]

i published as first author, but still have no invites from the top schools, despite a 4.0 GPA, 1390 GRE, and essays that i worked on and had multiple editors for.

so, it's clearly not that important

 

[FranklinR]

Well this is just fascinating. About 40% of people (who are on this board, who have answered, so far, etc., etc.) have published, and a little less than half of them were first author. That's more publishing than I expected, and way WAY more first author publishing than I expected.

There's no way to know from this data whether or not it helps in the admissions process, of course.

What do you think? Is this about what you expected?

 

[kidpsychstuff]

I have been 1st author on 1 paper in a high impact journal, 2 posters, and a paper presented at an international conference. Second author on a couple of papers as well. Like CheetahGirl, my situation is not the norm - I have been out of school working as an RA for 4 years now and have had the opportunity to work in 2 very productive labs. I can't comment on whether these publications will help me in the application process as I won't be applying until this fall. What I am hoping is that my above average research experience will make up for my not so outstanding GPA.

In regards to the comment about profs giving authorship where perhaps it wasn't earned - I must admit that was the case for one of the 2nd author papers I am on. I ran some subjects and did some coding but had no part in the theoretical or statistical work. My 1st authored paper was another story, I worked my &%$# off - so much so that I can't imagine being able to produce that level of work while being an undergrad.

 

[Ollie123]

Well this is just fascinating. About 40% of people (who are on this board, who have answered, so far, etc., etc.) have published, and a little less than half of them were first author. That's more publishing than I expected, and way WAY more first author publishing than I expected.

There's no way to know from this data whether or not it helps in the admissions process, of course.

What do you think? Is this about what you expected?

Its a bit on the high side, but I don't think unreasonable. Although, given numerous people have mentioned presentations, I wonder if some people are including that in their responses to the poll...that would skew the statistics quite a bit. I didn't even have a poster when applying, but I think that was kind of odd and I really have no excuse for not getting at LEAST one done, especially given I took time off. Then again, I got into a great program I'm very happy with, so no harm no foul

Getting a pub as an undergrad is definitely tough, but I think it could be doable for someone who sets themselves up for it from the start. Though like I said before, publication "count" is not a very meaningful statistic by itself.

 

[JockNerd]

[re: my comment on skepticism]
I completely disagree with this, and I also disagree that it'd have to be a result of RA work. I think that the poster sorely underestimates people's abilities.

I started a study in the summer before my 3rd year, which I'm quite sure I could have published, as first author, in additiont o my review paper. It was my research question, my design, I ran the Ps, analyzed, and am in the process of writing it up. I'm sure that it could have been published as well, except I decided to focus my time on my review paper since it went into review at the beginning of my 4th year.

Well, your experience is case in point, then, no? I just got the two papers that came out of my honors thesis published (I'm in my second year of grad school). My point was that it takes a while, and unless you're using archival data (as Ollie suggested, which actually hadn't occurred to me), getting a lit review done, running participants, entering data, analyzing, writing, all take time that just isn't there, typically, unless you a. start he project early, or b. take a year. Plus, I actually still maintain that most of the time, an undergrad isn't going to have the expertise or knowledge necessary to captain the ship on much more than a fairly simple paper.
...and for the record, I'm first on the stuff that came out of my thesis, and I was questioned on the appropriateness of that at two interviews.

Well this is just fascinating. About 40% of people (who are on this board, who have answered, so far, etc., etc.) have published, and a little less than half of them were first author. That's more publishing than I expected, and way WAY more first author publishing than I expected.

I'm gonna guess that most of the people who have published are coming off of RA work, such as kidpsychstuff. Or people are counting posters or undergrad journals.

 

[SpoiledKiwi]

...and for the record, I'm first on the stuff that came out of my thesis, and I was questioned on the appropriateness of that at two interviews.

Do you mind going into detail? I'm curious what specific questions were asked.

 

[JockNerd]

Do you mind going into detail? I'm curious what specific questions were asked.

I was asked VERY specific questions about the details of the lit search, about running 500 participants myself, about data entry error checking, about my competency to run the analysis using structural equation modeling & my awareness of some finer point of that technique, and about the role of my adviser if I was first author. I might not be conveying the tone properly; it was obviously a BS-check both times.

 

[Eruca]

Although, given numerous people have mentioned presentations, I wonder if some people are including that in their responses to the poll...that would skew the statistics quite a bit.

I've wondered this myself. I've seen posters referenced several times on this board (other threads included) as publications, but for the record, they are not. Nor is a 'published abstract' a real publication (particularly when it is printed in the journal associated with the conference and used for conference disclosure purposes). A published abstract that is a result of a conference presentation should be listed under Professional Presentations on your CV. Anything else, in my opinion, will look like padding.

If anyone disagrees, please weigh in. I'm mostly trying to help people avoid looking either naive, or like they're padding their publication record.

 

[Ollie123]

If anyone disagrees, please weigh in. I'm mostly trying to help people avoid looking either naive, or like they're padding their publication record.

Not sure you'll find much in the way of disagreement aside from those who didn't know any better. As far as I know, what you said is pretty much universally accepted in academia and I've heard from several faculty it looks bad when grad school applicants do it, and utterly embarassing when applicants for faculty positions do it. Given you've got to produce something absolutely, horrifyingly awful to not even be able to get it accepted as a POSTER somewhere, lumping it in with publications just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, if it isn't true I might qualify for tenure before I even finish my master's...don't really want to ruin that dream

 

[doktor yoyo]

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[doktor yoyo]

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