Has anybody lied about their ethnicity or SES and was accepted into medical school because of it

[Feelgood Inc]

Note: I am not encouraging anybody to do this.

Has anybody met a person who blatantly lied on their application about their ethnicity or socioeconomic status (assuming this metric is considered in medical school admissions; if not then forget about it) and believe that he/she was admitted to medical school because of it? Or do medical schools perform a background check on these students before officially extending admittance to their classes? How is that student doing now?

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[BlueCircle]

Note: I am not encouraging anybody to do this.

Has anybody met a person who blatantly lied on their application about their ethnicity or socioeconomic status (assuming this metric is considered in medical school admissions; if not then forget about it) and believe that he/she was admitted to medical school because of it? Or do medical schools perform a background check on these students before officially extending admittance to their classes? How is that student doing now?

Did you really just say that?
0/10

 

[Feelgood Inc]

Did you really just say that?
0/10

Okay, I'll bite in response to your helpful and not-condescending post since I honestly don't know if it's a factor, that's why I'm on these forums to learn more about the admissions process. Is it or is it not?

 

[CharlieKelly]

I was once told by an adcom at a top 20 school that an egyptian kid listed himself as "african-american." While technically, he was correct, his clear attempt to sway the adcoms with this designation were immediately recognized when they saw his face at the interview.

 

[Psai]

I was once told by an adcom at a top 20 school that an egyptian kid listed himself as "african-american." While technically, he was correct, his clear attempt to sway the adcoms with this designation were immediately recognized when they saw his face at the interview.

I know a guy who did that. He's at a top school so I guess it's okay

 

[Omppu27]

I have also heard of people who are like 1/16th mexican and list themselves as Hispanic.

 

[sundancing]

I was once told by an adcom at a top 20 school that an egyptian kid listed himself as "african-american." While technically, he was correct, his clear attempt to sway the adcoms with this designation were immediately recognized when they saw his face at the interview.

Out of curiousity, what race should Egyptians list on their applications? White/Caucasian?

 

[LizzyM]

Out of curiousity, what race should Egyptians list on their applications? White/Caucasian?

The US Census definition of "white" includes anyone whose heritage is North African or Middle Eastern which would include Egypt. For purposes of categorizing by race, "white" is a category, not a color.

 

[aprimenumber]

Out of curiousity, what race should Egyptians list on their applications? White/Caucasian?

White/Caucasian, Other, or Decline

 

[Goro]

This is where the OP's entire thesis/speculation falls apart.

I was once told by an adcom at a top 20 school that an egyptian kid listed himself as "african-american." While technically, he was correct, his clear attempt to sway the adcoms with this designation were immediately recognized when they saw his face at the interview.

 

[Feelgood Inc]

This is where the OP's entire thesis/speculation falls apart.

Except I never made a thesis/speculation, I had only asked a question out of curiosity.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

okay, what about a grandparent who is of East Indian Origin, but born and raised in Keyna (large indian population in both S. Africa and Kenya during that time period)? Had a cousin put down african american heritage instead of indian. We thought it was bogus, but he had the creds to back it up (the grandparents death certificate had birthplace of Keyna). Also, my neighbor's kids are 1/2 Persian, and 1/2 mixed Black/Creole. They put African American as their ethnicity, even though both of their parents were appear to be ORM physicians. We thought that was bogus too. I think it should really be what ethnicity you identify with, not your "blood". Just my 2 cents.

 

[aprimenumber]

Except I never made a thesis/speculation, I had only asked a question out of curiosity.

What do you think will happen?

If you do have some form of legitimate basis for identifying yourself as an ethnicity that most people may not identify you as, you may potentially receive a small benefit due to the ethnic diversity that you could potentially add to a class.

If it becomes clear to the school that you have mislead them in regards towards your ethnicity, that will be a huge red flag placed on your application.

 

[songl4a]

.

 

[RedPhys]

An interviewer at one the schools I interviewed commended me for being a true and genuine Hispanic (because I did translation/interpretation work, and worked with Spanish speaking communities). I did meet some people who claimed Hispanic who couldn't speak a lick of Spanish and only because their grandparent was from [insert South American, Spanish-speaking country here], so I guess there's some basis to being a genuine URM student.

I think whether aloud or not, they do try to see how true you are to the ethnicity you claim.

 

[LizzyM]

How about if you're asian but choose not to specify or whatever the option is? Any AdCom inputs on this?

I also find it curious that Asian is ORM even though there are so many different types of "asian," some represented significantly more than others.

If you choose not to identify, it will neither help nor hurt.

There does not appear to be a shortage of Asian physicians; if a school believed that its area had an under-representation of some race or ethnic group and that shortage was having a negative effect on the diversity of the student body or the ability to serve patients of that race/ethnicity in its catchment area, then the school can define URM as it sees fit and take action to increase the number of students/graduates of that race/ethnicity.

 

[seizurecrow]

I have also heard of people who are like 1/16th mexican and list themselves as Hispanic.

You can be white, black, or Asian and still identify as Hispanic.

 

[aprimenumber]

How about if you're asian but choose not to specify or whatever the option is? Any AdCom inputs on this?

I also find it curious that Asian is ORM even though there are so many different types of "asian," some represented significantly more than others.

You can use that same argument when talking about white people. I've never met any physicians whose parents immigrated here from Liechtenstein or Andorra. Doesn't mean I would call them URM.

 

[GreyF0X]

I've also heard and know of a few Egyptians who classify themselves as AA-URM and don't have a problem matriculating into medical/dental schools. I always thought that Egyptians would be ORM and not URM, since people in the northern part of Africa are classified as caucasian. Are there actual repercussions for medical students who do this?

 

[PrettyIvy]

The US Census definition of "white" includes anyone whose heritage is North African or Middle Eastern which would include Egypt. For purposes of categorizing by race, "white" is a category, not a color.

Out of curiosity would the Nubian people (non-arab/black) of Egypt have to classify themselves as white?

 

[songl4a]

.

 

[aprimenumber]

For an Asian who declined to specify, should it not help since they have higher average stats compared to the base (Caucasian).

I really don't think that it will make any difference. You're fixating on the wrong thing if this is what you're concerned about. Most schools ask you to upload a picture of yourself. Between a most-likely Asian-sounding last name, and a picture of your face, I really doubt there is going to be any significant advantage towards marking one or the other.

 

[pithy84]

I have known two people who swore they were black and African American despite looking totally white. I did not know one of them well enough to press. I knew the other one somewhat well, so I did press the matter. She admitted to having a fully white European mother, but a black father. I eventually met her father, he was probably a bit lighter than Barack Obama, I might have thought he was Latino or part African or just a dark olive Italian. The daughter says he is black and descended from Africans, I would definitely buy it.

If I were in her shoes, I really don't know what I would do for med school applications. Being black helps so much, but she doesn't look black at all. She has black hair, that's it. I would probably check two boxes, "black" and "white", and hope that they didn't think I was lying about the black heritage.

It really gets rather ridiculous, classifying people by race like this. And the results actually matter. It reminds me of the European colonists who used to measure the noses of African people to classify them.

 

[SynergySS]

ok, so my mother is straight from (insert hispanic country)... but she married a white guy. I don't speak Spanish and I appear american/white , what would I put down for ethnicity ? If I did put hispanic would this negatively affect me? Im curious about it from an adcoms perspective. Note : also her information such as her school etc is listed too, which was in (hispanic country).

 

[LizzyM]

ok, so my mother is straight from (insert hispanic country)... but she married a white guy. I don't speak Spanish and I appear american/white , what would I put down for ethnicity ? If I did put hispanic would this negatively affect me? Im curious about it from an adcoms perspective. Note : also her information such as her school etc is listed too, which was in (hispanic country).

You can list anything you want. You can check more than one box. How did you list yourself in the last census or how do you intend to list yourself in the 2020 census.

You are required to list what languages you speak and how well. You may choose to list your parents' names, last school attended & their professions. That can all be taken into account. It might help, it might not help. A school may want you as a member of the class even without the ethnic angle. It may not find you a suitable applicant for admission despite the ethnic angle.

 

[ImmunoLove]

I find it disconcerting that applicants would intentionally falsely identify themselves as URM, but apparently the admissions are such that some applicants do indeed consider (and even carry out) falsifying information. Yikes. Not characteristics I'd identify with "a good doctor of high moral character".

 

[Salt Salt]

The US Census definition of "white" includes anyone whose heritage is North African or Middle Eastern which would include Egypt. For purposes of categorizing by race, "white" is a category, not a color.

If race is a category and not a color, could I have marked AA on my app? I am entirely white (the color) but my mom's side of the family have lived in South Africa for generations.

 

[LizzyM]

If race is a category and not a color, could I have marked AA on my app? I am entirely white (the color) but my mom's side of the family have lived in South Africa for generations.

It is a category. According to the US census, a person fitting into the Black/African-American category is "A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian."

It is likely that you may fit into the white category define as, "A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian."

If I was not sure about my origins, I'd ask myself where my ancestors were living in 1491. If "my people" fell into more than one race/ethnic category, I'd check all the boxes that applied. Fake it and the adcom can be harsh unless you are so fabulous that they don't care that your race is a confabulation.

 

[Salt Salt]

It is a category. According to the US census, a person fitting into the Black/African-American category is "A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian."

It is likely that you may fit into the white category define as, "A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian."

If I was not sure about my origins, I'd ask myself where my ancestors were living in 1491. If "my people" fell into more than one race/ethnic category, I'd check all the boxes that applied. Fake it and the adcom can be harsh unless you are so fabulous that they don't care that your race is a confabulation.

The bit about "the original peoples of" answers my question well. What about the person who asked about Nubians though?

 

[LizzyM]

Out of curiosity would the Nubian people (non-arab/black) of Egypt have to classify themselves as white?

I am not Nubian and I presume you are not either. It would be up to those who are to decide how they self identify.

 

[WingedOx]

If race is a category and not a color, could I have marked AA on my app? I am entirely white (the color) but my mom's side of the family have lived in South Africa for generations.

Assuming they were probably spoke Afrikaans... umm...

...this is a joke, right? I'm missing the sarcasm, no?

 

[beachside]

You guys are really stretching it. The racial category is about race. Arabs are considered "white" because they are descended from the same Caucasian group as European whites.

I'm not a fan of race-based preferences, but you have to consider the intent when you're making your ethnic claim. Members of certain racial groups tend to identify with and thus trust doctors of their own racial group more than others. This is especially true of minority groups that are not very well integrated, which tend to be the larger ones. For example, if you put down African-American, but do not look like an African-American, then your minority status isn't likely to do the medical community any good.

Of course, your status as a minority could also indicate that you came from a disadvantaged background. You should definitely take advantage of that if it applies to you. If you're in doubt, just mark multiple boxes, as LizzyM said above.

 

[Narmerguy]

Just check the box that you have checked for the previous >20 years of your life when filling out tests, government forms, etc. I'm baffled why there's this sudden identity crisis during application time.

 

[deleted535750]

How about if you're asian but choose not to specify or whatever the option is? Any AdCom inputs on this?

I also find it curious that Asian is ORM even though there are so many different types of "asian," some represented significantly more than others.

Edited. Comment already made.

 

[touchpause13]

Just check the box that you have checked for the previous >20 years of your life when filling out tests, government forms, etc. I'm baffled why there's this sudden identity crisis during application time.

This always gets me too - there's no way anyone here hasn't checked a race box before (or declined to answer which you can still do here). We've all been thru a census, just put the same answer you put there. This isn't particularly complicated

 

[Salt Salt]

Just check the box that you have checked for the previous >20 years of your life when filling out tests, government forms, etc. I'm baffled why there's this sudden identity crisis during application time.

The answer is simply that, in med school admissions, the consequences of one's race are much higher.

 

[Gauss44]

I wish that people who lie, and who even consider lying frequently, would choose another profession. Lying is a sign of being too weak, unintelligent, or morally bankrupt to tactfully and diplomatically tell the truth. A truly skilled person has no need to lie.

LYING IS WEAK!

On the other hand, telling the truth when it is difficult to do so, helps one to develop important verbal and intellectual skills. As they say, "When you cheat, you only cheat yourself."

 

[Planes2Doc]

Just check the box that you have checked for the previous >20 years of your life when filling out tests, government forms, etc. I'm baffled why there's this sudden identity crisis during application time.

Because when it comes down to a hyper-competitive process, people suddenly discover their long lost roots and become very passionate about it.

 

[Mad Jack]

You guys are really stretching it. The racial category is about race. Arabs are considered "white" because they are descended from the same Caucasian group as European whites.

I'm not a fan of race-based preferences, but you have to consider the intent when you're making your ethnic claim. Members of certain racial groups tend to identify with and thus trust doctors of their own racial group more than others. This is especially true of minority groups that are not very well integrated, which tend to be the larger ones. For example, if you put down African-American, but do not look like an African-American, then your minority status isn't likely to do the medical community any good.

Of course, your status as a minority could also indicate that you came from a disadvantaged background. You should definitely take advantage of that if it applies to you. If you're in doubt, just mark multiple boxes, as LizzyM said above.

I know some black people that look very, very white. Like, you would think they were lying unless they showed you a family photo levels of white. Due to the complexity of skin color genetics and the level of Caucasian genetic admixture within the AA community, this sort of skin color presentation is uncommon but common enough that it occurs with reasonable frequency. So I wouldn't go so far as to say all that matters is how you look, but more so with what community you genuinely identify with the most.

 

[beachside]

So I wouldn't go so far as to say all that matters is how you look, but more so with what community you genuinely identify with the most.

In my opinion, the community that you identify with doesn't matter. It's the community that identifies with you that's important. After all, the whole point of having minorities in medicine is for better community outreach. If you're perceived by others as being 100% white, even if you're only 75%, then you're not going to be much more effective than a typical white doctor at building rapport/trust with the African American community.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

I know some black people that look very, very white. Like, you would think they were lying unless they showed you a family photo levels of white. Due to the complexity of skin color genetics and the level of Caucasian genetic admixture within the AA community, this sort of skin color presentation is uncommon but common enough that it occurs with reasonable frequency. So I wouldn't go so far as to say all that matters is how you look, but more so with what community you genuinely identify with the most.

I agree. I am obviously African-American, but I am also Hispanic. Most people can't tell...but it doesn't make it any less true lol.

 

[Mad Jack]

In my opinion, the community that you identify with doesn't matter. It's the community that identifies with you that's important. After all, the whole point of having minorities in medicine is for better community outreach. If you're perceived by others as being 100% white, even if you're only 75%, then you're not going to be much more effective than a typical white doctor at building rapport/trust with the African American community.

The thing is, you can be >80% black, have no white ancestors that you even know of, and come out pretty damn white care of the genetic lottery. They're as African American as any other AA, but just look different care of some white slave owners likely raping their ancestors. They go to the same schools, live in the same social environment, and have to overcome most of the same socioeconomic issues that black Americans face. You can't just write off their heritage, upbringing, and socioeconomic status just because they're not dark enough for your taste.

As to the purpose of URM admission- it isn't just to have providers that look like their patients. It is to have providers that are more likely to work with underserved populations and that understand underserved communities. Those two major benefits of URM admission don't just go away because they match up with too light of a color swatch.

 

[touchpause13]

Christ.... it's not like admissions is going to measure people with a brown bag. And let's not forget that there are conditions that can change your skin color. Doesn't change who you are.

 

[WingedOx]

The answer is simply that, in med school admissions, the consequences of one's race are much higher.

the consequences of the answer changes. The answer itself doesn't.

 

[Salt Salt]

the consequences of the answer changes. The answer itself doesn't.

So it's not possible that someone was using an answer for a while, but then reassessed whether their answer was accurate when it came time to apply to med school?

 

[Mad Jack]

Christ.... it's not like admissions is going to measure people with a brown bag. And let's not forget that there are conditions that can change your skin color. Doesn't change who you are.

"I'm sorry, but you're a little too "tortilla" for what we're looking for... Have you considered maybe adding a spray tan?"

 

[Salt Salt]

"I'm sorry, but your'e a little too "tortilla" for what we're looking for... Have you considered maybe adding a spray tan?"

That graphic is making me hungry

 

[Mad Jack]

That graphic is making me hungry

It just reminds me of one of my old bosses- he would actually send people out on coffee runs to Starbucks with color swatches from the paint store so they didn't **** up the amount of cream they added.

 

[Narmerguy]

The answer is simply that, in med school admissions, the consequences of one's race are much higher.

I assure you the consequences of one's race extend far beyond medical school admissions.

 

[Salt Salt]

I assure you the consequences of one's race extend far beyond medical school admissions.

I never said otherwise.