Healthcare Bill

[JaggerPlate]

The only thing I find shocking is your egocentric view of yourself and attempt to portray your conservatism on others. You seem like one of those people who has nothing better to do than sit on SDN because nobody in real life will be your friend. Try entering the real world with your attitude instead of hiding behind a computer screen.

Oh Drad ... just when I thought you were dead. LOL on that ban by the way. I hope you used the same IP on this one.

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[SteinUmStein]

Your writing format seems oddly familiar to a known (and hated) poster in the lounge. LOL I thought I'd just point that out.

As to healthcare bill. People, seriously, chill the freak out. Why are you so inclined to believe it'll fail in epic proportions when you haven't even seen it play out AND other countries with more complex and larger health cares reforms are doing just fine?

You can ask a lot of people around here who know me pretty well, I don't think I'm that bad of a guy. But sorry if my writing offends you...

 

[StormingWynn]

You can ask a lot of people around here who know me pretty well, I don't think I'm that bad of a guy. But sorry if my writing offends you...

Not saying I hate you. I'm saying other people in the lounge hate that person. LOL

 

[SteinUmStein]

Not saying I hate you. I'm saying other people in the lounge hate that person. LOL

Ok, I misread that for sure. Party on Garth.

 

[oaklandguy]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...5146002445136066.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h

 

[Dr Oops]

For those of you who may noT have heard congress failed to postpone the Medicare cuts before they went on spring break. they go into effect April 1st.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It took me a while to get what you said; you think I am Drad18? I read most of this thread and I though I don't agree with Drad18 on everything, his choice to set the record straight on you is one that I agree with, and one more SDN members should realize.

I think it's important to note that this is the second person this month who has created an SDN account simply to troll me personally. I'm also 100% sure you are Drad.

 

[JaggerPlate]

For those of you who may noT have heard congress failed to postpone the Medicare cuts before they went on spring break. they go into effect April 1st.

April Fools!!!

These were pushed back to October 2010 back in early March. I'm doubting this one. Source??

 

[teenmachinery1]

Where did all the sky-is-falling conservatives go?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOUctySD68

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

Where did all the sky-is-falling conservatives go?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOUctySD68

Bomb shelters. Don't you watch South Park?

 

[FutureDoc4]

April Fools!!!

These were pushed back to October 2010 back in early March. I'm doubting this one. Source??

Actually this is true, they failed to push back the Medicare cuts:

[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]

eVoice® Alert
March 26, 2010
Congress fails to prevent April 1 cut in Medicare physician payments
Last night, the U.S. Senate held floor debate on a bill, H.R. 4851, that would extend a number of expiring programs through April. That bill, which had already passed the U.S. House of Representatives, includes a 30-day extension of current Medicare physician payment rates, postponing once again the 21.3 percent cut scheduled to take effect this year. It also addresses a number of other programs such as extensions of COBRA benefits and unemployment insurance benefits for Americans who have lost their jobs.
In a replay of the standoff that occurred a month ago, Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., objected to the bill's consideration on the basis that it should not be considered emergency spending that would be exempt from budgetary offsets. As a result, Congress will adjourn for its two-week spring recess without taking action to stop these programs from expiring. We are told that the Senate plans to hold a cloture vote after the recess which, if supported by 60 senators, will allow a vote to occur on the legislation. That vote is scheduled for the evening of April 12.
Congress failed to act yet again, and as a result, the 21.3 percent Medicare physician payment cut will take effect on April 1. The AMA has contacted the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), and they will be making an announcement shortly about their plans for handling the situation. Judging from past experience, CMS will not be forced to process claims at the reduced payment rates for 10 business days.
This repeated game of brinksmanship is wreaking havoc with physician practices and is causing both physicians and patients to lose confidence in the Medicare program. It illustrates in stark terms why medicine can no longer support short-term "fixes" to a formula that we knew would not work at the time Congress created it.
Physicians are urged to track down their representatives and senators during their spring break and hold them accountable for their inability to do what they know is right for patients and their physicians. Forty-five million Americans count on Medicare, and physicians simply cannot run viable practices in an environment with such extreme financial uncertainty. Medicine knew when Congress created the sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula that it would not work, and this point has been proven every year for nearly a decade. Congress must stop playing games with physicians and patients and do what they know must be done: Repeal the SGR formula once and for all.

.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Actually this is true, they failed to push back the Medicare cuts:




[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]

.
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]eVoice® Alert.
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]March 26, 2010.
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]Congress fails to prevent April 1 cut in Medicare physician payments.
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]Last night, the U.S. Senate held floor debate on a bill, H.R. 4851, that would extend a number of expiring programs through April. That bill, which had already passed the U.S. House of Representatives, includes a 30-day extension of current Medicare physician payment rates, postponing once again the 21.3 percent cut scheduled to take effect this year. It also addresses a number of other programs such as extensions of COBRA benefits and unemployment insurance benefits for Americans who have lost their jobs..
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]In a replay of the standoff that occurred a month ago, Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., objected to the bill’s consideration on the basis that it should not be considered emergency spending that would be exempt from budgetary offsets. As a result, Congress will adjourn for its two-week spring recess without taking action to stop these programs from expiring. We are told that the Senate plans to hold a cloture vote after the recess which, if supported by 60 senators, will allow a vote to occur on the legislation. That vote is scheduled for the evening of April 12. .
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]Congress failed to act yet again, and as a result, the 21.3 percent Medicare physician payment cut will take effect on April 1. The AMA has contacted the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), and they will be making an announcement shortly about their plans for handling the situation. Judging from past experience, CMS will not be forced to process claims at the reduced payment rates for 10 business days. .
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]This repeated game of brinksmanship is wreaking havoc with physician practices and is causing both physicians and patients to lose confidence in the Medicare program. It illustrates in stark terms why medicine can no longer support short-term “fixes” to a formula that we knew would not work at the time Congress created it. .
[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]Physicians are urged to track down their representatives and senators during their spring break and hold them accountable for their inability to do what they know is right for patients and their physicians. Forty-five million Americans count on Medicare, and physicians simply cannot run viable practices in an environment with such extreme financial uncertainty. Medicine knew when Congress created the sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula that it would not work, and this point has been proven every year for nearly a decade. Congress must stop playing games with physicians and patients and do what they know must be done: Repeal the SGR formula once and for all. .

[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]

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Obstructionist republicans at work again. Trust me, there will not be 21% cuts. They've done these billing gymnastics before where the gubment will hold new claims from medicare past april 1st for a short amount of time while we figure out how to get past these conservative goofballs and fix the system.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Lol ... I'm to the point where it just seems like a joke now.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Obstructionist republicans at work again. Trust me, there will not be 21% cuts. They've done these billing gymnastics before where the gubment will hold new claims from medicare past april 1st for a short amount of time while we figure out how to get past these conservative goofballs and fix the system.

Republicans will only be able to gather the support of moderates and independents if they stop their mindless blocking of all legislation. They need to learn how to pick their battles, so far they haven't achieved anything by being the "Party of NO" or whatever. Screaming no at anything and everything is not a solution to any of our numerous problems.

 

[teenmachinery1]

I'm owning some nubs in the socipolitical issues forum btw. I had no idea about these doctors and med students..

edit: this is better than video games.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Republicans will only be able to gather the support of moderates and independents if they stop their mindless blocking of all legislation. They need to learn how to pick their battles, so far they haven't achieved anything by being the "Party of NO" or whatever. Screaming no at anything and everything is not a solution to any of our numerous problems.

Eh ... I'm not saying the Republicans are right for blocking everything or even that this is their gameplan, but frankly ... I don't think they need to do much to gain support right now. There's been a slight turn around in the support for the HC bill right now, but unless there is a huge turn around and the benefits start rolling in, etc, I don't think the GOP is going to need much to win big in mid-terms. Just by two cents.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Eh ... I'm not saying the Republicans are right for blocking everything or even that this is their gameplan, but frankly ... I don't think they need to do much to gain support right now. There's been a slight turn around in the support for the HC bill right now, but unless there is a huge turn around and the benefits start rolling in, etc, I don't think the GOP is going to need much to win big in mid-terms. Just by two cents.

I think people are going to be surprised when November rolls around. Just because the craziest GOPers scream the loudest doesn't mean everyone opposes health care reform. I know many people who finally got around to reading the health bill and are going, "Um, what's the big deal? This is common sense stuff."

 

[teenmachinery1]

I think people are going to be surprised when November rolls around. Just because the craziest GOPers scream the loudest doesn't mean everyone opposes health care reform. I know many people who finally got around to reading the health bill and are going, "Um, what's the big deal? This is common sense stuff."

Well... think about it. It's not like the democrats can win ANY MORE seats right?

So, they will declare victory no matter what.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think people are going to be surprised when November rolls around. Just because the craziest GOPers scream the loudest doesn't mean everyone opposes health care reform. I know many people who finally got around to reading the health bill and are going, "Um, what's the big deal? This is common sense stuff."

I think people will be more upset with the way it was pushed through, and I wouldn't overestimate the ability of people to change their opinion by reading the bill. My guess is that you'll see a lot of GOP victories come November. Like I said, unless the benefits become shockingly clear between now and then ... I just don't see it going any other way. Again, just my opinion, and it has more to do with opinions already forged in the mind of voters, not taking the time to analyze the bill, issues regarding the way it was passed (whether they are true or not), and the GOP campaigning on the idea of how bad this thing is and how they fought to stop it.

 

[teenmachinery1]

I think people will be more upset with the way it was pushed through, and I wouldn't overestimate the ability of people to change their opinion by reading the bill. My guess is that you'll see a lot of GOP victories come November. Like I said, unless the benefits become shockingly clear between now and then ... I just don't see it going any other way. Again, just my opinion, and it has more to do with opinions already forged in the mind of voters, not taking the time to analyze the bill, issues regarding the way it was passed (whether they are true or not), and the GOP campaigning on the idea of how bad this thing is and how they fought to stop it.

I think this is the argument for lazy simple people. How was it pushed through?

As for the not enough time argument - Republicans had 8 years.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think this is the argument for lazy simple people. How was it pushed through?

You're missing the point. I'm not personally arguing that Republicans did a good job for the past 8 years or why it was pushed through incorrectly ... this is completely irrelevant.

I'm giving my analysis of the average American voter ... and stating that they essentially already have their minds made up, aren't going to take the time to read the bill - and the GOP is going to run their campaign off this idea, and unless the benefits of the bill are super, duper clear between now and November, I think that these assets are going to lead to a GOP victory in November.

I'm not stating it's right, wrong, good, bad, etc ... I'm just saying that it's what I see happening and why.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Awesome, GOP victories in November. Legislative roadblock for the next 6 years... unless you think the Republican party can magically produce a decent presidential candidate in the next few years. They certainly don't have one right now.

 

[JaggerPlate]

They certainly don't have one right now.

They're on the trail for the next Kerry/Edwards team as we speak

 

[SteinUmStein]

They're on the trail for the next Kerry/Edwards team as we speak

Ugh, John Edwards makes me sick. That man is a terrible human being.

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Expansion of government is such a bad, bad thing. Especially with regards to Healthcare. I really hope Obama doesn't just muscle this thing through. I'm not one of those people who is just anti the bill, but not aware of what it entails ... I'm pretty familiar (familiar enough) with the House, Senate, and I've read a litttle bit about the WH one now, and I still think it's a really, really bad idea. Furthermore saying passing it is a 'bigger loss than nothing at all' is thinking from a different pov. In my opinion, congress, Obama, GOP, etc, no one really gives a **** about getting the uninsured covered, or fighting big insurance, maybe in the beginning they did, but not now. No, it's now just one side with a vendetta and the other one completely refusing to even SNIFF anything he pushes forward. It's dumb. Really dumb. The biggest loss to these people in the congress is losing their seat ... not American's getting healthcare. In that respect, pushing through a bill that most Americans still oppose (last time I checked Rasmussen at least), is 'losing.' Furthermore if Pelosi is squawking that you need reconciliation AND the House passing the Senate bill for this thing to happen ... I smell problems. I know Obama portrays himself as the defender and he won't quit, etc, but I just don't see this move playing out right now. It's political suicide ... it really is.

Also, I'm not kidding that if government expands with regards to health care and medicare gets a 21% cut ... we should all think long and hard about going 200k into debt.

Once again, just another regurgitation of Republican/Conservative talking points...big government...really???? Show me one measure in the bill that makes government big/expands government in a strict administrative-implementive sense. If your argument were true, then we could easily say that we live in a police state, or a legislative dictatorship because we rely on laws to structure our societies. Undoubtedly another case of blind political ideology supplanting serious national debate on a critical cornerstone of American life. Republicans have been throwing around all the words from flash cards used in their glory days...communism, socialism, big government, marxism, free competition, expensive, etc. I speak for those of us who are neither republican nor democrat...we can see through your puerile and deceptive scare-tactics!! Onnward and upward with healthcare reform...no matter how piecemeal!!!

 

[JaggerPlate]

Once again, just another regurgitation of Republican/Conservative talking points...big government...really???? Show me one measure in the bill that makes government big/expands government in a strict administrative-implementive sense. If your argument were true, then we could easily say that we live in a police state, or a legislative dictatorship because we rely on laws to structure our societies. Undoubtedly another case of blind political ideology supplanting serious national debate on a critical cornerstone of American life. Republicans have been throwing around all the words from flash cards used in their glory days...communism, socialism, big government, marxism, free competition, expensive, etc. I speak for those of us who are neither republican nor democrat...we can see through your puerile and deceptive scare-tactics!! Onnward and upward with healthcare reform...no matter how piecemeal!!!

AH! Fighting talking points with talking points, perfect.

Of course it makes it okay because it's from a liberal perspective right? How many people made accounts in Feb/March just to troll this thread? Jesus.

 

[thesauce]

Once again, just another regurgitation of Republican/Conservative talking points...big government...really???? Show me one measure in the bill that makes government big/expands government in a strict administrative-implementive sense. If your argument were true, then we could easily say that we live in a police state, or a legislative dictatorship because we rely on laws to structure our societies. Undoubtedly another case of blind political ideology supplanting serious national debate on a critical cornerstone of American life. Republicans have been throwing around all the words from flash cards used in their glory days...communism, socialism, big government, marxism, free competition, expensive, etc. I speak for those of us who are neither republican nor democrat...we can see through your puerile and deceptive scare-tactics!! Onnward and upward with healthcare reform...no matter how piecemeal!!!

I can give you a few:
1. IRS expansion due to new taxes and the fact that they will be placed in charge of verifying compliance with individual mandates.
2. Huge medicaid expansion in all states
3. Creation of (literally) dozens of new federal agencies such as the Health Choices Administration, the Health Benefits Advisory Committee, the Health Insurance Exchange.
4. HHS will now be in charge of overseeing health insurance companies to make sure they comply with the new mandates placed upon them

Do you need more than that? Where did you think the $1 trillion was going?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Here are the real reasons why Americans are pissed:

1: More taxes on the middle class. If you have not been working for years, you can't understand the frustration. So all 18 to 21 year old pre-meds need to shut the **** up when it comes to this specific topic. I have been in the work force for just over a decade and every single year I get taxed more and more and what state is our economy in again?

2: The way the bill was passed really pissed off Americans (except Obama worshipers). They didn't do it the in the democracy way that was promised.

3: We were lied to once again. We are sick and tired of the political game. How did the bill pass? Well, for the naive pre-meds who don't understand anything outside of their little pre-med classes, the democrats illegally bribed their way to BUYING their way into getting votes.

4: The biggest reason yet. MORE GOVERNMENT INTRUSION IN OUR LIVES. Anyone who thinks a bigger government is a good thing doesn't understand what it takes for a country to thrive. Thus, good thing you are going to medical school to become a doctor because you would suck ass as a business owner.

Poetry.

 

[Parts Unknown]

3. Creation of (literally) dozens of new federal agencies such as the Health Choices Administration, the Health Benefits Advisory Committee, the Health Insurance Exchange.

Interesting that of the dozens of new federal agencies you select two from the now dead House bill, and a third that is intended to do what the Republicans have been clamoring for for years.

 

[thesauce]

Interesting that of the dozens of new federal agencies you select two from the now dead House bill, and a third that is intended to do what the Republicans have been clamoring for for years.

Interesting that you don't understand there will be analogous agencies in the passed bill. Interesting that you chose only to debate 1/4 of my post. But even more interesting that you assume I would change my view depending on who proposed or supported an idea. Is this your approach to politics?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Interesting that you don't understand there will be analogous agencies in the passed bill.

I'm just not sure what's so difficult about listing one of the dozens of new government agencies in the bill that passed, not the one that died.

Interesting that you chose only to debate 1/4 of my post.

Sorry, Simpsons in 5.

But even more interesting that you assume I would change my view depending on who proposed or supported an idea. Is this your approach to politics?

It certainly influences my opinion of politicians and the people who discuss politics.

 

[thesauce]

I'm just not sure what's so difficult about listing one of the dozens of new government agencies in the bill that passed, not the one that died.

Alright, well, there's 159 of them so take your pick. I honestly don't know the names of all of them and which are picking up the responsibilities of the ones that were dropped.

Sorry, Simpsons in 5.

Duly noted.

It certainly influences my opinion of politicians and the people who discuss politics.

I don't align myself with either party, but prefer to look at the stances of individual politicians.

I was in favor of much of this bill, but also didn't like many things about it. It's a little frustrating to see a convoluted explanation of long-term cost-savings that is all predicated on the government appropriately, effectively, and efficiently executing the bill. Then to hear that this is a historic achievement "much like the passage of medicare and social security," both of which are in shambles and the former of which required this bill to save it. You've got to be kidding me.

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Nice try at deflecting, but like 80% of my posts were to a very interesting person I met on this board, recently. I would have much rather had a conversation with him in person, but alas, this blog was the best I could do. Combine that with insomnia, and well, you get the idea!

Vocal minority isn't a reference to how much you talk, but rather how loudly you shout. The minority comment is due to the fact that your views (that you've mentioned here) aren't terribly mainstream. Think what you will.

I'm with you on this one, your road is truly "Unlonely" after all!! You'll make a fine physician. I think you nailed it on the head...some people (as you aptly pointed out) are more interested in fervid poitical diatribe than they are in constructive debate on the issues.

I (neither republican nor democrat) am sick and tired of the mechanical talking points from conservative 'flash cards' that are floating out here in the name of arguments against healthcare, and the future of a system that clearly does not work for all.

Truly wise...you do not stand alone.

 

[RELAX11]

Why are a lot of people missing the point?

To see the real impact of the reform, you have to look outside of your self, which most likely you will not!

Stop trying to make this reform about yourself when in most cases it truly is not.

This reform will drastically change the lives of every day americans, ie the person denied coverage for a pre-existiing condition who can now seek coverage instead of having to worry about going $900,000 in debt. There are thousands of heart breaking examples like this that I can go on and on about, however, I will let people keep ignoring them (the real reason for the reform) and worry about selfish things that may prevent you from getting that BMW or Audi one day.

 

[Dr Oops]

Why are a lot of people missing the point?

To see the real impact of the reform, you have to look outside of your self, which most likely you will not!

Stop trying to make this reform about yourself when in most cases it truly is not.

This reform will drastically change the lives of every day americans, ie the person denied coverage for a pre-existiing condition who can now seek coverage instead of having to worry about going $900,000 in debt. There are thousands of heart breaking examples like this that I can go on and on about, however, I will let people keep ignoring them (the real reason for the reform) and worry about selfish things that may prevent you from getting that BMW or Audi one day.

Theres lots of sad stories. None of them however will pay for healthcare reform.

If polticians were as altruistic as pre-meds, I would have no problem letting them do whatever they wanted. However, they are not and idealism dont pay the bills.

So yes, while I do feel for those people, we can't lose our objectivity, we have to figure out a way to reform healthcare not just insurance, and have to do it objectively in order to save the entire country, not just those with pre-existing conditions.

 

[7starmantis]

Theres lots of sad stories. None of them however will pay for healthcare reform.

If polticians were as altruistic as pre-meds, I would have no problem letting them do whatever they wanted. However, they are not and idealism dont pay the bills.

So yes, while I do feel for those people, we can't lose our objectivity, we have to figure out a way to reform healthcare not just insurance, and have to do it objectively in order to save the entire country, not just those with pre-existing conditions.

I didn't even know this thread was still going.

The quoted post is, sadly, the reality. You can't hurt others to help a few. We have already seen huge corporations dropping benefits for retirees, raising benefit costs for employees, laying off employees, and showing huge losses because of the bill. The problem isn't people not seeing good in the bill, or people wanting to help others, its about doing so in a responsible and economical manner in order to protect the majority of people who like and receive great care.

Heart breaking stories exist in life, we will never be able to solve all pain in the world, with any bill. We can do out bets and continue to make changes. There hasn't been anything in this process that makes me think any of it was about helping those "heartbreaking stories".

 

[DrM5]

Well said

I didn't even know this thread was still going.

The quoted post is, sadly, the reality. You can't hurt others to help a few. We have already seen huge corporations dropping benefits for retirees, raising benefit costs for employees, laying off employees, and showing huge losses because of the bill. The problem isn't people not seeing good in the bill, or people wanting to help others, its about doing so in a responsible and economical manner in order to protect the majority of people who like and receive great care.

Heart breaking stories exist in life, we will never be able to solve all pain in the world, with any bill. We can do out bets and continue to make changes. There hasn't been anything in this process that makes me think any of it was about helping those "heartbreaking stories".

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

Theres lots of sad stories. None of them however will pay for healthcare reform.

If polticians were as altruistic as pre-meds, I would have no problem letting them do whatever they wanted. However, they are not and idealism dont pay the bills.

So yes, while I do feel for those people, we can't lose our objectivity, we have to figure out a way to reform healthcare not just insurance, and have to do it objectively in order to save the entire country, not just those with pre-existing conditions.

I know for myself, I am counting on the bill to be heavily edited as time goes on.

We all know it's much easier to modify legislation then it is to pass it. I am hoping that there are enough Republicans that remain fiscally conservative who will help make some of the hard choices that are necessary to keep the health care system solvent (note that regardless of whether or not this bill was passed, without serious change the health care system isn't and wasn't solvent for the long term). However, I may still have too much faith in the political system!

So, that's why I'm positive about this development. I think it's a good (perhaps the best we could hope for) start.

Regardless, given that Social Security hasn't bankrupted the country, Medicare and Medicaid haven't bankrupted the country, the War on Terror hasn't bankrupted the country (heck even Vietnam wasn't the end of everything), I see no reason to believe that this bill will be the end of anything either. Cuts will be made, some taxes will be raised and life will go on.

 

[Lokhtar]

The problem isn't people not seeing good in the bill, or people wanting to help others, its about doing so in a responsible and economical manner in order to protect the majority of people who like and receive great care.

Heart breaking stories exist in life, we will never be able to solve all pain in the world, with any bill. We can do out bets and continue to make changes. There hasn't been anything in this process that makes me think any of it was about helping those "heartbreaking stories".

Or you can have single payer so all of these discussions are moot.....

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

Or you can have single payer so all of these discussions are moot.....

For my own intellectual satisfaction, if you magically replaced the US health care system with a single-payer government run system, I wonder how much would you have to raise taxes to pay for it, assuming you're unwilling to cut any additional government programs?

 

[spacecowgirl]

For my own intellectual satisfaction, if you magically replaced the US health care system with a single-payer government run system, I wonder how much would you have to raise taxes to pay for it, assuming you're unwilling to cut any additional government programs?

Just the first two things I could think of:
Lower administration overhead (have you seen how much paperwork it takes to bill a zillion plans with different formularies and different coverages and different rejections)-> lower cost to administer; larger insured pool-> spreading risk->lower costs for insurer and insured

 

[Marcus Brody]

The alternative to giving insurance companies money is Single Payer, and we know how that ties people's panties into knots...

Or....we could just have a single payer.

Man, the quicker we get to a single payer the better, so we can stop having these inane debates all the time.

We'd be at a single payer long before such a thing happens.

Or you can have single payer so all of these discussions are moot.....

man, you need to STFU about the single payer already. It is somewhat disturbing.

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

man, you need to STFU about the single payer already. It is somewhat disturbing.

Let's be fair. Despite your disagreements with it, it's still a reasonable political position. Loktor just feels strongly about it. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

Just the first two things I could think of:
Lower administration overhead (have you seen how much paperwork it takes to bill a zillion plans with different formularies and different coverages and different rejections)-> lower cost to administer; larger insured pool-> spreading risk->lower costs for insurer and insured

Definitely true, but right now about 50% of health care costs aren't covered by the government. You'd still have to raise taxes to cover the other 50%, even if you saw the discounts you mentioned.

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

So niave. At the current rate of our growing national debt, 90% of every tax dollar by the year 2020 will go to paying our national debt. Not bankrupt our country. So niave. If you bankrup 1/4 of the states, you are bankrupting the country. Keep going to medical school as you are better suited for that than running anything in commerce.

That's not the first time something like that was said. We're not even at our high tide point for national debt (as a % of GDP).

What you said was naive. The idea that we're just going to ignore the debt and hope it goes away is laughable. If it really got that bad, we'd cut benefits drastically. People would be unhappy, but the country would go on. Besides, the debt is only growing as large as it is now because we're in a recession. The stimulus from this year is unlikely to be repeated. That's 800 billion of debt that we won't have next year.

Be realistic, we've got work to do, but the sky is not falling, Medicare and Medicaid were dramatically more expensive then this. How often are financial predictions accurate 12 months in the future, let alone 10 years?

Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I promise not to develop any economic policies for our government if you'll agree to do the same thing. You can't just claim financial Armageddon everything things don't go the way you want them to.

 

[RELAX11]

So niave. At the current rate of our growing national debt, 90% of every tax dollar by the year 2020 will go to paying our national debt. Not bankrupt our country. So niave. If you bankrup 1/4 of the states, you are bankrupting the country. Keep going to medical school as you are better suited for that than running anything in commerce.

It would be naive except for the fact that nowhere in the reform does it mention increasing the national debt over time. People tend to spin it how they like but the important thing is to wait to see if Obama is right that the reform will pay for itself and actually lessen the national debt. Unfortunately no one has a crystal ball to look into. All other talk is complete speculation and party bias. Only time will tell.

 

[JaggerPlate]

All altruism aside ... I don't know how ANY medical student/pre-med/resident, etc, can advocate a single payer system without first seriously, seriously working with Uncle Sam on getting us through medical school with less debt. I don't know of any other career where people would ask for far less money (don't even try to argue you'd get paid the same under a government run single payer) while putting in the same time, effort, and money for training. It's asinine.

 

[Dr Oops]

I know for myself, I am counting on the bill to be heavily edited as time goes on.

We all know it's much easier to modify legislation then it is to pass it. I am hoping that there are enough Republicans that remain fiscally conservative who will help make some of the hard choices that are necessary to keep the health care system solvent (note that regardless of whether or not this bill was passed, without serious change the health care system isn't and wasn't solvent for the long term). However, I may still have too much faith in the political system!

So, that's why I'm positive about this development. I think it's a good (perhaps the best we could hope for) start.

Regardless, given that Social Security hasn't bankrupted the country, Medicare and Medicaid haven't bankrupted the country, the War on Terror hasn't bankrupted the country (heck even Vietnam wasn't the end of everything), I see no reason to believe that this bill will be the end of anything either. Cuts will be made, some taxes will be raised and life will go on.

I wish I had your faith in the government, but precedence leads me to feel otherwise.

Im not sure how much the bill will get edited, you cant give something to the people which they think is free and then take it away, its political suicide, no party would do it.

The programs havent bankrupted the country but they have bankrupted themselves and soon they will be insolvent.

Realistically this country will never become bankrupt. What can happen though is that other countries will stop buying our debt. When this happens we will have no other choice but to cut spending drastically and increase taxes, there will also probably be lots of inflation. The standard of living could very well drop and relatively significantly. There will probably also be more unemployment. Can the country get passed this? Of course but people will not like giving up their entitlements, lots of people will be out of jobs, major banks may be in danger of failing again.

That's not the first time something like that was said. We're not even at our high tide point for national debt (as a % of GDP).

What you said was naive. The idea that we're just going to ignore the debt and hope it goes away is laughable. If it really got that bad, we'd cut benefits drastically. People would be unhappy, but the country would go on. Besides, the debt is only growing as large as it is now because we're in a recession. The stimulus from this year is unlikely to be repeated. That's 800 billion of debt that we won't have next year.

Be realistic, we've got work to do, but the sky is not falling, Medicare and Medicaid were dramatically more expensive then this. How often are financial predictions accurate 12 months in the future, let alone 10 years?

Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I promise not to develop any economic policies for our government if you'll agree to do the same thing. You can't just claim financial Armageddon everything things don't go the way you want them to.

If we're not at the high tide point of national debt to GDP, then I am truly scared. The US can only sustain a debt of 3-4% of GDP, I forget the exact number but I believe we are around 11-17%.

 

[RELAX11]

All altruism aside ... I don't know how ANY medical student/pre-med/resident, etc, can advocate a single payer system without first seriously, seriously working with Uncle Sam on getting us through medical school with less debt. I don't know of any other career where people would ask for far less money (don't even try to argue you'd get paid the same under a government run single payer) while putting in the same time, effort, and money for training. It's asinine.

All altruism aside? Are you saying this isn't the most important aspect of the reform? Caring for those who are SOL without it? Because if not it should be.


And yes medical school debt is a huge problem in America if you don't realize the big pic. Not so bad when you compare doctor's salaries in usa vs foreign countries. ie take that extra you would earn here and pay for the debt from medical school and you will still come far ahead of foreign docs. So in summary i dont get what you are saying.

 

[jj6vcb]