How Being a Doctor Became the Most Miserable Profession

[type12]

Depends on how you classify a miracle. I saw at least 2 just yesterday, if you count flatlining for a notable period and then, without defibrillation, intubation, or drugs, recovering to the point of lucid conversation and "get this crap off of me so I can get up".

Was it the same guy with Alzheimer's? Or two different people who said the same thing?

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[NickNaylor]

I think some doctors/future doctors (in this thread included) envisioned themselves working 40 hour weeks performing miracle operations with a 100% success rate. In reality, they're working 60-80 hrs (depending) and will probably never perform any "miracles" as they simply do bread and butter medicine.

When you get your hopes up and don't end up doing what you thought you would, that's when depression hits you (that plus the long hours of being in the same place over n over).

Did I get right, Lord Medical Student(s) ?

No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[masaraksh]

I think some doctors/future doctors (in this thread included) envisioned themselves working 40 hour weeks performing miracle operations with a 100% success rate. In reality, they're working 60-80 hrs (depending) and will probably never perform any "miracles" as they simply do bread and butter medicine.

When you get your hopes up and don't end up doing what you thought you would, that's when depression hits you (that plus the long hours of being in the same place over n over).

Did I get right, Lord Medical Student(s) ?

Miracles, I ain't got no time for that.

 

[alpinism]

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what the med students/residents are trying to say.

For the most part, It isn't the long hours, bad work schedules, years of endless training, rising debt burden, and declining salaries that makes most physicians unhappy. None of this is new or surprising to most people entering medical school. What many premeds don't understand (as evidenced by the comments in this thread) is that medicine is unfortunately becoming less and less focused on "helping others and caring for patients" and more and more focused on "patient satisfaction and making money."

Believe it or not, most physicians care about their patients and would happily give up weekends/nights/family/friends in order to perform a life-saving surgery or procedure. The frustrating and often truly depressing problem with many fields in medicine is that the vast majority of the time is not spent caring for patients, but rather filling out paperwork, performing social work, fighting with insurance companies to cover treatments, and managing chronic untreatable conditions. Most of the time you're not helping your patients or fixing their problems.

 

[Psai]

You sound like you're sitting there steaming.
What is it you'd rather do? Go do that.

BTW, you ain't a doctor either brah.

Yeah I know that's why it says "medical student" right there below my name. There's a reason why I'm not sitting at my computer making up dumb, poorly thought out lists about how various jobs suck while patting myself on the back for being an overprivileged premed. Sup?

 

[username456789]

Dear Premeds,
I recall not very long ago Nick Naylor posting some of the same sentiments of which you are guilty currently. Deflecting anything remotely critical of the medical profession, upholding a very optimistic and idealistic view, and pushing back against those angry med student/resident/attending know-nothings who brought nothing but doom and gloom.

I'm obviously exaggerating slightly, but the fact that he is now coming to warn you should be very telling. I suggest you all screenshot/bookmark this thread and your replies, and tuck them away for a couple years. Read them again throughout your medical education, residency, and beyond. Lord knows you'll probably need a few good laughs at that point.

Hugs and Kisses,
GWDS

 

[type12]

When you read all these posts, I urge everyone to remember: there's NOTHING stopping you from walking away at ANY point in time. Oh, loans? That thing almost EVERYONE has if they went to college? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

So no matter what excuse they "don't recommend," remember, they are basically acting as hypocrites.

I am not referring to anyone who is just saying "Know what you are getting into," but those people who time and time again say, "I wouldn't do it if I could do it again." And I'm not talking about anyone specific in this thread, just a common phrase I've seen thrown about.

 

[Psai]

When you read all these posts, I urge everyone to remember: there's NOTHING stopping you from walking away at ANY point in time. Oh, loans? That thing almost EVERYONE has if they went to college? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

So no matter what excuse they "don't recommend," remember, they are basically acting as hypocrites.

I am not referring to anyone who is just saying "Know what you are getting into," but those people who time and time again say, "I wouldn't do it if I could do it again." And I'm not talking about anyone specific in this thread, just a common phrase I've seen thrown about.

Yeah, no. There's a difference between 30k and 170k. You're not the only person who took introductory microeconomics so save the lecture when you don't have any clue about what you're talking about.

 

[KnuxNole]

Money is a large motivator. Which other careers are viable options for a 22 year old with public school pedigree and above average intelligence/work ethic? Even a family medicine physician can expect $6 million or so in lifetime earnings.

This is true. You can be average or even below average in intelligence too and end up having a decent career. Lots of careers that require intelligence or talent would be a reach for the average joe...

Being a doctor definitely isn't in the 1% by a LONGSHOT, but it's a decent career. After all, everyone here knows real doctors don't all own huge mansions and 5 cars. Some might, but most people reading this forum won't be in that dream

 

[KnuxNole]

Cool story bro thanks for telling us all about the various professions in which you have expertise. You don't understand because you're not looking at the right things. You make up a random number, say that people should be satisfied with it and you don't understand what that number entails. No one goes out of their way to be miserable. First of all, desirable locations and high salaries generally don't go together. Second, we live in North America. I don't care if people are suffering in Africa because I've never experienced it and it doesn't affect me. Just because someone has it bad doesn't mean that I have to look at them and be thankful that someone here is exploiting my time, effort and knowledge for their own personal benefit just because I'm not starving to death.

I agree with this. It is 100% meaningless that we live in North America. At all. I don't compare myself to third world people, that would make no sense haha.

 

[mcloaf]

When you read all these posts, I urge everyone to remember: there's NOTHING stopping you from walking away at ANY point in time. Oh, loans? That thing almost EVERYONE has if they went to college? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

So no matter what excuse they "don't recommend," remember, they are basically acting as hypocrites.

I am not referring to anyone who is just saying "Know what you are getting into," but those people who time and time again say, "I wouldn't do it if I could do it again." And I'm not talking about anyone specific in this thread, just a common phrase I've seen thrown about.

Hundreds of thousands dollars in high interest graduate school loan debt isn't a sunk cost for which you can just say "Oh well" and walk away. It's an enormous prospective cost that grows at an alarming rate and most people in medical school/residency/practice only have a realistic shot at ever paying it off if they stay in medicine.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Not even done with training, absolutely no experience as to what being an attending physician is like, and telling everyone not to become one anyway.

Careful, they don't take kindly to upsetting the power structure. Medicine is one of the last vestiges of this, it's all they have left, even if on the internet with anonymous screen names.

 

[armybound]

Careful, they don't take kindly to upsetting the power structure. Medicine is one of the last vestiges of this, it's all they have left, even if on the internet with anonymous screen names.

meh, it's just a stupid position for a pre-med to be taking. I might not know what it's like to be an attending, but I do know what it's like to be a resident, neither of which a pre-med knows.

 

[IMDoc607]

No offense, but there's a bit of irony here: you have more exposure to what it is like to be a medical STUDENT, but I wouldn't say being a doctor and a student are one in the same. Yes, just like a physician, you have infinite job security: you can suck, but you'll always be employed. That type of security is not appreciated if you have never had to look for a job 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for six months. Let's not talk about the unfortunates who have to couple this full time job with a McDonald's job to make ends meet.

So we can go back and forth and say, "Ha, your points are not valid! If an idiot said the sky is blue, the sky would no longer be blue." Instead of attacking a person's credentials, attack their points headon. Blanket statements are a copout.

I had this in a previous thread where the poster not only said "you have no idea because you are not a medical student," he then proceeded to agree with me at every front. I just gave up right there. His straw man and ad hominems had taken the day.

EDIT: For example, I could say you have no idea how nice you have it because you have nothing to compare it to. Did you ever work as a Wall Street Analyst? No, so you are forbidden from ever comparing anything you have not done with something you have. Absurd?

I can assure you he is correct. As a cardiology fellow who often moonlights, I love the subject of medicine. However, the US treats us with suspicion and dislike. I love saving someone's life but overall the bad outweighs the good. Will I quit medicine? Hell no.....I enjoy it to much but the truth is being a doctor blows. Once you realize this you're to far in to quit. You'll see.

 

[NontradCA]

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what the med students/residents are trying to say.

For the most part, It isn't the long hours, bad work schedules, years of endless training, rising debt burden, and declining salaries that makes most physicians unhappy. None of this is new or surprising to most people entering medical school. What many premeds don't understand (as evidenced by the comments in this thread) is that medicine is unfortunately becoming less and less focused on "helping others and caring for patients" and more and more focused on "patient satisfaction and making money."

Believe it or not, most physicians care about their patients and would happily give up weekends/nights/family/friends in order to perform a life-saving surgery or procedure. The frustrating and often truly depressing problem with many fields in medicine is that the vast majority of the time is not spent caring for patients, but rather filling out paperwork, performing social work, fighting with insurance companies to cover treatments, and managing chronic untreatable conditions. Most of the time you're not helping your patients or fixing their problems.

This has been the case since medicine turned into big business. Physicians got filthy rich off of it. Now other people are taking over, and it's transitioning into something more respectable. I guess it sucks to be in that transition period, but it will settle itself out eventually. How is this a surprise to anyone?

 

[type12]

Hundreds of thousands dollars in high interest graduate school loan debt isn't a sunk cost for which you can just say "Oh well" and walk away. It's an enormous prospective cost that grows at an alarming rate and most people in medical school/residency/practice only have a realistic shot at ever paying it off if they stay in medicine.

While I appreciate the stalking, there's no need for the straw man fallacy here. Please look very carefully at the thread title, the topic of "doctors" and not "medical students."

If the debt is that insurmountable, doctors could not afford high end cars, expensive houses, or ironically, six figure salaries. You can BS all you want about how doctors are not truly in the 1%, but it doesn't make it any less true. If you HONESTLY cannot handle a six figure debt with a six figure salary, then that is just bad money management.

Now for doctors, which is what I was talking about, who truly think they are eternally locked into medicine, they are basically admitting that their high-end lifestyle is worth the "suffering" of being a doctor. Yes, they can justify it as, "well, I put so much time into becoming one," but that's the heart of the sunk cost fallacy.

I'm not going to entertain any more of your straw men. This one was free. Next one you build up, you can keep up.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

meh, it's just a stupid position for a pre-med to be taking. I might not know what it's like to be an attending, but I do know what it's like to be a resident, neither of which a pre-med knows.

I get it, I see it on this board constantly. As long as someone is at least 1 rung lower on the medical training/experience ladder, they clearly need to STFU, amiRIGHT?
A thread gets started in Pre-Allo.....attending, residents, and even MS1s come in and shut everyone down with "you're a pre-med you don't know ****".
No real weight is given to whether or not what the attending/resident/ms(1-4) is saying is well thought out, logical, consistent or even coherent.
Who needs that? Power structure, baby.
Keep it sacred and keep it going, at all cost, because if you lose it on the internet, you'll lose it in real life.

 

[KnuxNole]

But it is true....very few people here are gonna own high end cars, or big expensive houses


I would never think a wee physician is the 1%. After all, we are only doctors, nothing that special or insanely rich haha.

 

[type12]

Yeah, no. There's a difference between 30k and 170k. You're not the only person who took introductory microeconomics so save the lecture when you don't have any clue about what you're talking about.

Sorry, just saw this. I think you should actually review your notes in that class. You just spit out the very core of the delusion. Thanks for reaffirming my point.

 

[armybound]

I get it, I see it on this board constantly. As long as someone is at least 1 rung lower on the medical training/experience ladder, they clearly need to STFU, amiRIGHT?
A thread gets started in Pre-Allo.....attending, residents, and even MS1s come in and shut everyone down with "you're a pre-med you don't know ****".
No real weight is given to whether or not what the attending/resident/ms(1-4) is saying is well thought out, logical, consistent or even coherent.
Who needs that? Power structure, baby.
Keep it sacred and keep it going, at all cost, because if you lose it on the internet, you'll lose it in real life.

They need to STFU about things they know nothing about. Med students shouldn't tell residents what it's like to be a resident, pre-meds shouldn't tell med students what it's like to be a med student, etc.

I'm not sure where you're at in the heirarchy, but you'll see that there's a large gap in experience and awareness once you move up to the next level. You look back and realize how naive you were and how naive those people are.

Like your username, btw.

 

[IMDoc607]

I get it, I see it on this board constantly. As long as someone is at least 1 rung lower on the medical training/experience ladder, they clearly need to STFU, amiRIGHT?
A thread gets started in Pre-Allo.....attending, residents, and even MS1s come in and shut everyone down with "you're a pre-med you don't know ****".
No real weight is given to whether or not what the attending/resident/ms(1-4) is saying is well thought out, logical, consistent or even coherent.
Who needs that? Power structure, baby.
Keep it sacred and keep it going, at all cost, because if you lose it on the internet, you'll lose it in real life.

In fairness, I think a lot of premed do put things into perspective as they see it but in real life it's just not that simple. I don't think you are inferior or "know nothing" but it's not fair for pre meds to lecture med students, etc on something they Haven't yet experienced. It blows but like someone else said what job doesn't?


Good discussion

 

[chenzt]

Sorry, just saw this. I think you should actually review your notes in that class. You just spit out the very core of the delusion. Thanks for reaffirming my point.

Aren't you forgetting that loan is a gift that just keeps on giving, in the form of interest? And it is not so irrational to want to be able to pay off at least the interest every year?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

They need to STFU about things they know nothing about. Med students shouldn't tell residents what it's like to be a resident, pre-meds shouldn't tell med students what it's like to be a med student, etc.

I'm not sure where you're at in the heirarchy, but you'll see that there's a large gap in experience and awareness once you move up to the next level. You look back and realize how naive you were and how naive those people are.

Like your username, btw.

You made my point.
Dude called you out on not knowing what it's like being an attending because you're not an attending. You did the decent thing of giving your perspective as a resident, valuable to be sure, and we're all better having read it. But then you respond with "You know what that's like though, right? Having already been there?"

No, he doesn't know what it's like, he's not claiming to. You were, which was why he called you out in the first place. But the logic of that doesn't matter, the fact that a resident pulled trump rank on the pre-med reigns supreme. +1 to the resident, pre-med back in your damn place.

In the productive industry world, grey haired 40 year+ experienced guys are right, or they're wrong. And freshly minted straight out of schoolers are free, willing, and able to say "You're wrong on this one, old man, sorry but your bias got the best of you, you miscalculated, you failed to keep up with technology, etc.

The old guard ideas die hard, I hope they die quick in medicine.

 

[mcloaf]

While I appreciate the stalking, there's no need for the straw man fallacy here. Please look very carefully at the thread title, the topic of "doctors" and not "medical students."

If the debt is that insurmountable, doctors could not afford high end cars, expensive houses, or ironically, six figure salaries. You can BS all you want about how doctors are not truly in the 1%, but it doesn't make it any less true. If you HONESTLY cannot handle a six figure debt with a six figure salary, then that is just bad money management.

Now for doctors, which is what I was talking about, who truly think they are eternally locked into medicine, they are basically admitting that their high-end lifestyle is worth the "suffering" of being a doctor. Yes, they can justify it as, "well, I put so much time into becoming one," but that's the heart of the sunk cost fallacy.

I'm not going to entertain any more of your straw men. This one was free. Next one you build up, you can keep up.

Simmer down. I'm not stalking you. I read this forum, don't flatter yourself.

As for your post, people in residency and young attendings with mountains of debt to pay off are also called doctors. Most of these people are not driving a Ferrari to work from their mansion.

At this point I'm not really going to bother with the rest of your drivel here. The idea that someone in middle age is a hypocrite because they aren't willing to simply walk away from everything in their life is ridiculous. Things are not that straightforward in the real world because there are more factors than merely sunk cost as you'd have us believe. Anyway, carry on. Go ahead and respond with some inanity about "straw man" and "ad hominem". If you want I can try to look up an intro to argumentation textbook so you can find some more terms to try to sound impressive.

 

[armybound]

You made my point.
Dude called you out on not knowing what it's like being an attending because you're not an attending. You did the decent thing of giving your perspective as a resident, valuable to be sure, and we're all better having read it. But then you respond with "You know what that's like though, right? Having already been there?"

No, he doesn't know what it's like, he's not claiming to. You were, which was why he called you out in the first place. But the logic of that doesn't matter, the fact that a resident pulled trump rank on the pre-med reigns supreme. +1 to the resident, pre-med back in your damn place.

In the productive industry world, grey haired 40 year+ experienced guys are right, or they're wrong. And freshly minted straight out of schoolers are free, willing, and able to say "You're wrong on this one, old man, sorry but your bias got the best of you, you miscalculated, you failed to keep up with technology, etc.

The old guard ideas die hard, I hope they die quick in medicine.

Nah, re-read the posts. They had nothing at all to do with being an attending. I spoke completely about my experience as a resident.

 

[NontradCA]

They need to STFU about things they know nothing about. Med students shouldn't tell residents what it's like to be a resident, pre-meds shouldn't tell med students what it's like to be a med student, etc.

I'm not sure where you're at in the heirarchy, but you'll see that there's a large gap in experience and awareness once you move up to the next level. You look back and realize how naive you were and how naive those people are.

Like your username, btw.

I haven't seen premeds say anything false on this thread. They stated some positive facts about being a physician, and things that appealed to THEIR ideals, morals, and expectations.

 

[armybound]

I haven't seen premeds say anything false on this thread. They stated some positive facts about being a physician, and things that appealed to THEIR ideals, morals, and expectations.

I don't think I've seen anything patently false either, though since we don't have experience as an attending, I'm not sure we really have any room to talk.

The issue being that I was speaking about my experience and sharing how I warn pre-meds to seriously consider the sacrifices one has to make to become a physician. I merely told of my philosophy toward becoming a doctor, and I was met with "NUH UH BEING A DOCTOR IS AWESOME." Which, you know, wasn't really relevant to what I was saying nor a pre-med's place to really challenge my experience... in my opinion.

You'll see my first long post essentially says that the sacrifices made before you're an attending aren't worth it to some. Having a pre-med tell me that it's all worth it because being an attending is so awesome is just dumb.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Nah, re-read the posts. They had nothing at all to do with being an attending. I spoke completely about my experience as a resident.

Post #12. As a resident you give advice about being a "Doctor" and staying away from "certain specialities". I re-read it, three times. I love a semantics jerk around as much as the next person ( Yes, but what DOES Doctor mean in this instance) but it's beside the point. Your response is my point of contention, not your initial claims or from what perspective you were speaking from. You didn't even need to, but you pulled rank anyways. Like I said, case in point.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You'll see my first long post essentially says that the sacrifices made before you're an attending aren't worth it to some. Having a pre-med tell me that it's all worth it because being an attending is so awesome is just dumb.

That's just it, the guy didn't say being an attending is so awesome, he said you're not even an attending, yet you're telling everyone not to be one. He applied logic, but clearly logic only trickles down on this board, not up.

 

[armybound]

That's just it, the guy didn't say being an attending is so awesome, he said you're not an attending, yet you're telling everyone not to be one. He applied logic, but clearly logic on trickles down on this board, not up.

Right, except I never said anything about being an attending. I was talking about being a resident. So he called me out on something I wasn't talking about.

I said I tell people to think twice about becoming a doctor or going in to certain specialties. Turns out I am a doctor, and I am in certain specialties that I discourage people from going in to. I think I have the authority to speak on that, and his comment about not being an attending is irrelevant.

Logical?

edit: ahh, I see your other point. So it's a matter of semantics now. Ok. I say one thing, he goes off about a different point, yet I'm making it about semantics.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Right, except I never said anything about being an attending. I was talking about being a resident. So he called me out on something I wasn't talking about.

I said I tell people to think twice about becoming a doctor or going in to certain specialties. Turns out I am a doctor, and I am in certain specialties that I discourage people from going in to. I think I have the authority to speak on that, and his comment about not being an attending is irrelevant.

Logical?

But if an attending said it, would it be irrelevant?
All it would take to blow your argument here on SDN is for one attending in Urology to quote you and say, "You're just a resident, SFTU until you're at least 10 years into practice and you actually understand the true width, depth and breadth of your practice and the other specialities you're turning people away from."

This my point. It's all about power structure, only the rung above can criticize.

 

[type12]

Simmer down. I'm not stalking you. I read this forum, don't flatter yourself.

As for your post, people in residency and young attendings with mountains of debt to pay off are also called doctors. Most of these people are not driving a Ferrari to work from their mansion.

At this point I'm not really going to bother with the rest of your drivel here. The idea that someone in middle age is a hypocrite because they aren't willing to simply walk away from everything in their life is ridiculous. Things are not that straightforward in the real world because there are more factors than merely sunk cost as you'd have us believe. Anyway, carry on. Go ahead and respond with some inanity about "straw man" and "ad hominem". If you want I can try to look up an intro to argumentation textbook so you can find some more terms to try to sound impressive.

Yet you take it upon yourself to quote me and use emoticons in response in this thread. I'm truly touched how often you quote me at least then.

I do not understand why you're so compelled to disagree with me, and then regurgitate my own points back at me like I was disagreeing with myself. I really don't. Look, stop while you're ahead.

Now, you're going to say that your "trying to sound impressive" statement is not an ad hominem, but speaks to something about my point? Explain to me how that is relevant to any point. Just because you don't like being called out doesn't make your attacks any less of that: a copout to my points.

I'm not going to touch your straw man fallacy about people driving to work in ferraris and mansions since I said doctors are in the 1%, not EVERYONE, but whatever. There's too much past that to talk about. I mean, geez, seriously, man, just... WHY?! Who said to walk away from everything in their life?! I DARE YOU, NAY, CHALLENGE YOU TO QUOTE ME where I say to walk away from everything. Hell, not even in this thread, ANY THREAD. Go nuts. This is the definition of a straw man. You don't like that people have seen these illogical points before and given them a name, but their purpose is more to have useful conversation. We cut the BS and talk.

I mean, I get it, you really can't argue against my points because you're going to use them to break down your own straw men (so you probably shouldn't call them drivel, lol), but.... like, c'mon, at least try to put a mask on and pretend they are original statements.

So, I'm willing to forgive this outburst and have a civil conversation. The only valid point you brought up was that residents and attendings make five figures while having a six figure debt. This means they are foregoing current comforts for better positions in the future. I have worked closely with MDs who went straight into pharmaceutical business out of med school and started with six figures. Some are making seven figures now. There are other options, other possibilities to make a manageable salary inside of medicine while no longer practicing. And these are just the instances within medicine. If the money truly was not worth the "suffering," you have outs.

 

[NontradCA]

I don't think I've seen anything patently false either, though since we don't have experience as an attending, I'm not sure we really have any room to talk.

The issue being that I was speaking about my experience and sharing how I warn pre-meds to seriously consider the sacrifices one has to make to become a physician. I merely told of my philosophy toward becoming a doctor, and I was met with "NUH UH BEING A DOCTOR IS AWESOME." Which, you know, wasn't really relevant to what I was saying nor a pre-med's place to really challenge my experience... in my opinion.

You'll see my first long post essentially says that the sacrifices made before you're an attending aren't worth it to some. Having a pre-med tell me that it's all worth it because being an attending is so awesome is just dumb.

Don't you think a lot of that is self assuring considering the title of the thread and tone of the article you posted? I did read your first and second post and they were insightful and useful. The rest of the thread participants who are med students and residents seem to be condescending in tone and offer no real advice, and shifting to status. It takes away from the overall message, and I thank you for sharing..but I don't even know why you feel the need to defend your knowledge to someone who can't grasp or appreciate the experience you're going through. It should also be noted that there are some residents on here who share the complete opposite viewpoint as you and don't care about missing out on life to get where they're going. Maybe they'll come to a realization at one point or another? I have a serious question: If you are at a point where you're fed up, can't you now take the time to do things you want to without compromising your training? It's possible to go through medical school and residency and still have a life, right?

Hey, thanks for even taking the time to post here.

 

[armybound]

But if an attending said it, would it be irrelevant?
All it would take to blow your argument here on SDN is for one attending in Urology to quote you and say, "You're just a resident, SFTU until you're at least 10 years into practice and you actually understand the true width, depth and breadth of your practice and the other specialities you're turning people away from."

This my point. It's all about power structure, only the rung above can criticize.

And so now your comment about me pulling rank on a pre-med means what, exactly?

edit: I think you edited in there. If an attending said it, I'd open a dialogue with them. I'd say "Here's what I experienced, did you experience it too? And was it still worth it in the long run? Because it doesn't seem worth it right now."

FWIW, I don't steer people away so much as I make them aware of the sacrifices that they may face in that field. For instance, we all know that we may end up working long hours, missing plays/games/recitals, missing birthdays, missing first steps/first words/whatever of our kids. We "know" that, and we accept it.

I was speaking with a co-resident today whose dad is a surgeon, and he was saying his dad was present at least for enough stuff growing up that he didn't really mind his dad working so much. It made no real big difference to him. My point was it might not matter to his kid, but did it matter to his dad? Because it's his dad's opinion that really matters in this situation. My kid isn't going to know that I wasn't there when she first rolled over, or when she first started babbling and cooing, or when she first started feeding herself with a bottle, but I know I missed it, and I hate that. My wife claims she knew she was going to have to do the majority of the work around the house and she's ok with that, but I hate it. I feel terrible about it. That's one of those sacrifices I knew I was going to make, but now that I'm doing it, I'm miserable.

So I share those things with people. And again, in 20 years when I'm attending with a nice practice and making good money, things will be different. But I can't undo the sacrifices I've made by making a little extra money or taking us on a nice vacation. I think people should consider those kinds of things before deciding if it's really worth it to them.

 

[armybound]

Don't you think a lot of that is self assuring considering the title of the thread and tone of the article you posted? I did read your first and second post and they were insightful and useful. The rest of the thread participants who are med students and residents seem to be condescending in tone and offer no real advice, and shifting to status. It takes away from the overall message, and I thank you for sharing..but I don't even know why you feel the need to defend your knowledge to someone who can't grasp or appreciate the experience you're going through. It should also be noted that there are some residents on here who share the complete opposite viewpoint as you and don't care about missing out on life to get where they're going. Maybe they'll come to a realization at one point or another? I have a serious question: If you are at a point where you're fed up, can't you now take the time to do things you want to without compromising your training? It's possible to go through medical school and residency and still have a life, right?

Hey, thanks for even taking the time to post here.

The tone of the article is definitely based on being an attending and not a resident. To be honest, I've seen several articles like this that bemoan life as a physician, and I tend to think they're whiny and stupid. Medicine really is a fantastic career.. I hope no one reads my comments and thinks that I hate my career and think nobody should go in to it. All I'm saying is that I give a healthy warning that it's not for everyone.

I'll moan to non-medical friends about my work hours, but to be honest, they're not that bad. It's just a cheap shot for sympathy. I feel like this article and many others I've read are the same way. OMG the plight of the physician... really isn't that bad. Yeah, paperwork and all of that sucks. Not getting to spend time with your patients really, really sucks. Declining reimbursement, government mandates, etc all suck. But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone should feel sorry for us for being a physician. We're damn lucky to get to do what we do.

I agree with you that there are many who don't mind their role as residents and the sacrifices we make. I think a lot has to do with priorities and our place in life. A single guy who lives to operate will have a different perspective on a 14 hour day than me, who would love to go home and see his wife and kid. Also note that as a general surgery intern, I'm not doing urology, so I'm less happy than I would be if I was in my chosen specialty. Ask any radiology resident how they enjoyed their internal medicine internship and they'll probably tell you they hated it. Ask an internal medicine categorical the same and they probably wouldn't mind as much.

Is it possible to still have a life? Absolutely. Friends of mine (who post here) still enjoy life to the fullest. One general surgery resident looks like she's having a great time, going out with her boyfriend, going on vacations, etc. I definitely didn't put my life on hold for medical school or residency. It's just a little harder to do, both with your time and lack of money.

Sorry for the long response. I'm on night float right now so I don't have a lot better to do.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

And so now your comment about me pulling rank on a pre-med means what, exactly?

Without a semantic tar pit battle over what most people understand the word "Doctor" to mean (no longer in training, would be the majority position, I'd venture), it's probably not worth answering this, but what the hell...

It means, that you were able to make a claim about something you nothing about: ( by your own definition, haven't been there, then you know nothing)
a) being a "Doctor" (see above semantic tar pit avoidance for sake of the audience)
b) being a "Doctor" in specialities other than your own
however, when someone called you on not being qualified to make this claim, you counter claim that they aren't qualified to make that claim, solely due to lack of experience, which you also lack.

Logic? Irrelevant.
Power structure FTW.

FWIW, I don't steer people away so much as I make them aware of the sacrifices that they may face in that field. For instance, we all know that we may end up working long hours, missing plays/games/recitals, missing birthdays, missing first steps/first words/whatever of our kids. We "know" that, and we accept it.

I was speaking with a co-resident today whose dad is a surgeon, and he was saying his dad was present at least for enough stuff growing up that he didn't really mind his dad working so much. It made no real big difference to him. My point was it might not matter to his kid, but did it matter to his dad? Because it's his dad's opinion that really matters in this situation. My kid isn't going to know that I wasn't there when she first rolled over, or when she first started babbling and cooing, or when she first started feeding herself with a bottle, but I know I missed it, and I hate that. My wife claims she knew she was going to have to do the majority of the work around the house and she's ok with that, but I hate it. I feel terrible about it. That's one of those sacrifices I knew I was going to make, but now that I'm doing it, I'm miserable.

So I share those things with people. And again, in 20 years when I'm attending with a nice practice and making good money, things will be different. But I can't undo the sacrifices I've made by making a little extra money or taking us on a nice vacation. I think people should consider those kinds of things before deciding if it's really worth it to them.

To bring a less analytical side to all of this, I really appreciate this portion for more reasons than I'm willing to get into.

 

[armybound]

Without a semantic tar pit battle over what most people understand the word "Doctor" to mean (no longer in training, would be the majority position, I'd venture), it's probably not worth answering this, but what the hell...

It means, that you were able to make a claim about something you nothing about: ( by your own definition, haven't been there, then you know nothing)
a) being a "Doctor" (see above semantic tar pit avoidance for sake of the audience)
b) being a "Doctor" in specialities other than your own
however, when someone called you on not being qualified to make this claim, you counter claim that they aren't qualified to make that claim.

Logic? Irrelevant.
Power structure FTW.

To bring a less analytical side to all of this, I really appreciate this portion for more reasons than I'm willing to get into.

I dunno, I equate "being a doctor" with "going in to medicine" with going through medical school, residency, and being an attending. It's all one big experience to me. Sorry if you don't agree with the verbiage I used or my desire to speak about my experience so far at this point in my training.

Again, I just don't see why a pre-med should call me out for saying being an attending isn't worth it when I didn't say that. But we obviously disagree about what being a "doctor" is. Either way, I think when I'm an attending it won't change the sacrifices I'm current making. Maybe the money will make all of this sacrifice worth it, but these sacrifices sure do suck, and that's what I try to get across to pre-meds/med students.

Regarding your last comment, are you being sarcastic or not? I'd love your input on it.

 

[studentp0x]

Yeah I know that's why it says "medical student" right there below my name. There's a reason why I'm not sitting at my computer making up dumb, poorly thought out lists about how various jobs suck while patting myself on the back for being an overprivileged premed. Sup?

If you feel like im making anything up, head on over to the other forums and see what other professionals and professional students have to say about their profession.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I dunno, I equate "being a doctor" with "going in to medicine" with going through medical school, residency, and being an attending. It's all one big experience to me. Sorry if you don't agree with the verbiage I used or my desire to speak about my experience so far at this point in my training.

Again, I just don't see why a pre-med should call me out for saying being an attending isn't worth it when I didn't say that. But we obviously disagree about what being a "doctor" is. Either way, I think when I'm an attending it won't change the sacrifices I'm current making. Maybe the money will make all of this sacrifice worth it, but these sacrifices sure do suck, and that's what I try to get across to pre-meds/med students.

We can agree to disagree. I work in a different world where power structures fall with every mistake, I can't relate to pulling rank. In my world, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and we're all better if that's pointed out so that no one dies when something blows up. On this board (and from what the practitioners on this board say), in medicine you know your role in the pecking order and you can only correct those below you in said order. Generations come and they die, and their ideas die with them. I'm hoping this one is on the way out. The public image of Doctors right now is dismal, I don't think this old skool ego power structure is doing them any favors in that regard, nor is it making better Doctors, in my non-experience-zero-rank-on-the-power-structure opinion.

Regarding your last comment, are you being sarcastic or not? I'd love your input on it.

Edit, N'M

 

[armybound]

Not in the slightest, and it's the opposite. I'd actually love YOUR input on it.

I gave my input. What is it you appreciated? Can you relate?

 

[Dbate]

So much naivety in this thread. I can understand why pre-meds think being a doctor is a great profession that people shouldn't be unhappy in, but I'm a little blown away by the pre-meds who think they know so much more about medicine than the med students, residents, and attendings in this thread that they are trying to contradict what is being said. Come back in a few years when you're a medical student, I guarantee you'll find much more truth in what armybound and the other physicians are saying. Come back in a few more years when you're a resident, and I guarantee that you will know several colleagues who are unhappy with their job, or you will be unhappy yourself.

I'm only halfway through medical school, I don't start rotations until this summer, and I know I am a completely different person than when I was in undergrad. I can already see the cynicism and unhappiness starting in myself and others. Depression in medical school is ridiculously common, something like 30% in a recent article I read. @NickNaylor hit the nail on the head with his post, I agree with everything.



Money doesn't solve all problems. The guy may be able to purchase expensive cars and houses, but money doesn't cure depression or dissatisfaction with your career/life.

Have you or @NickNaylor every worked a professional, full time job in your life?

Nothing about being unhappy with a job is unique to medicine.

It annoys me when med students/physicians complain about how hard and terrible medicine is because so many of them fail to realize that the alternatives aren't roses and daises.

I will admit I am not a physician. I work as a healthcare consultant in NYC. I just got finished with work at midnight tonight and I regularly work until 1 am multiple times a week (plus 3 out of 4 weekends a month). Guess how much I get paid? A crappy $80k. And I'm incredibly lucky. Most people will work their entire lives and not make as much as I make in my first job out of college.

The alternative jobs that are available to potential premeds are all hard and difficult. Coming from someone not in the medical field, all the whining physicians do is completely annoying.

Everyone works hard. All jobs suck. Being a doctor isn't any different or special in this regard. If you don't like what you're doing then quit.

But don't expect anyone (especially not the general public) to feel sorry about you when the poorest paid physicians are still making $150K.

 

[studentp0x]

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what the med students/residents are trying to say.

For the most part, It isn't the long hours, bad work schedules, years of endless training, rising debt burden, and declining salaries that makes most physicians unhappy. None of this is new or surprising to most people entering medical school. What many premeds don't understand (as evidenced by the comments in this thread) is that medicine is unfortunately becoming less and less focused on "helping others and caring for patients" and more and more focused on "patient satisfaction and making money."

Believe it or not, most physicians care about their patients and would happily give up weekends/nights/family/friends in order to perform a life-saving surgery or procedure. The frustrating and often truly depressing problem with many fields in medicine is that the vast majority of the time is not spent caring for patients, but rather filling out paperwork, performing social work, fighting with insurance companies to cover treatments, and managing chronic untreatable conditions. Most of the time you're not helping your patients or fixing their problems.

So it's not what you expected? That's kind of the reality of everything.
I wonder if these same doctors unhappy in medicine would be happier commuting an hour to a useless 9-5 office making 50k/year.

This is true. You can be average or even below average in intelligence too and end up having a decent career. Lots of careers that require intelligence or talent would be a reach for the average joe...

Being a doctor definitely isn't in the 1% by a LONGSHOT, but it's a decent career. After all, everyone here knows real doctors don't all own huge mansions and 5 cars. Some might, but most people reading this forum won't be in that dream

Most physicians have the *potential* to make enough to have a big house and a really nice car (even an exotic). Yea most won't have a different ferrari/lambo for every day of the week, but hey.. you're a doctor not a celebrity or sports star. It's a lot more than most doctors would achieve outside of medicine (financially) and the potential is always there to make more if you're willing to orient your practice a certain way and work longer/more efficiently.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I gave my input. What is it you appreciated? Can you relate?

Hm, I think I misread your intentions. Nope, think I'm all out of personal information I'm willing to share on the internet.

 

[armybound]

So it's not what you expected? That's kind of the reality of everything.
I wonder if these same doctors unhappy in medicine would be happier commuting an hour to a useless 9-5 office making 50k/year.

I don't know if I'd say it's not what I expected, because I knew what I was getting in to, but I'd say it's just different than I expected. It's harder than I expected, or it affects me more than I was anticipating.

Hm, I think I misread your intentions. Nope, think I'm all out of personal information I'm willing to share on the internet.

My intention was just to initiate a conversation. It's something I've recently experienced and thought I'd share. When you said you appreciated it, I was wondering why. Maybe your parent is a physician and you found it to be interesting. I don't know. I enjoy it when people find my opinion interesting, so I thought I'd try to find out why you felt that way.

Wasn't trying to really dig in to your personal life or anything. I just felt it was a perspective maybe some future parents would like to hear so when the time comes they might know what to expect.

 

[NontradCA]

The tone of the article is definitely based on being an attending and not a resident. To be honest, I've seen several articles like this that bemoan life as a physician, and I tend to think they're whiny and stupid. Medicine really is a fantastic career.. I hope no one reads my comments and thinks that I hate my career and think nobody should go in to it. All I'm saying is that I give a healthy warning that it's not for everyone.

I'll moan to non-medical friends about my work hours, but to be honest, they're not that bad. It's just a cheap shot for sympathy. I feel like this article and many others I've read are the same way. OMG the plight of the physician... really isn't that bad. Yeah, paperwork and all of that sucks. Not getting to spend time with your patients really, really sucks. Declining reimbursement, government mandates, etc all suck. But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone should feel sorry for us for being a physician. We're damn lucky to get to do what we do.

I agree with you that there are many who don't mind their role as residents and the sacrifices we make. I think a lot has to do with priorities and our place in life. A single guy who lives to operate will have a different perspective on a 14 hour day than me, who would love to go home and see his wife and kid. Also note that as a general surgery intern, I'm not doing urology, so I'm less happy than I would be if I was in my chosen specialty. Ask any radiology resident how they enjoyed their internal medicine internship and they'll probably tell you they hated it. Ask an internal medicine categorical the same and they probably wouldn't mind as much.

Is it possible to still have a life? Absolutely. Friends of mine (who post here) still enjoy life to the fullest. One general surgery resident looks like she's having a great time, going out with her boyfriend, going on vacations, etc. I definitely didn't put my life on hold for medical school or residency. It's just a little harder to do, both with your time and lack of money.

Sorry for the long response. I'm on night float right now so I don't have a lot better to do.

I appreciate the thorough response. I too have a family, and after acceptance I contemplated going to medical school or not. Having no financial burden, and support from my family made the decision easier, but I know it's going to be hard when I'm missing out on things. The way I look at it is that I'll be providing in terms of money for college and living expenses that I didn't have. At least, that's how I'm able to justify it.

My mentor is a GS who advised me not to pursue a surgical specialty using the same cautioning you are. The funny thing about that is I met him during his GMO tour as my MO, and he was completely different in attitude compared to what it is now, finished with residency. Maybe that will be me in a few years. I figure there's no sense in being upset at things you can't control. I learned that in military.

 

[armybound]

I appreciate the thorough response. I too have a family, and after acceptance I contemplated going to medical school or not. Having no financial burden, and support from my family made the decision easier, but I know it's going to be hard when I'm missing out on things. The way I look at it is that I'll be providing in terms of money for college and living expenses that I didn't have. At least, that's how I'm able to justify it.

My mentor is a GS who advised me not to pursue a surgical specialty using the same cautioning you are. The funny thing about that is I met him during his GMO tour as my MO, and he was completely different in attitude compared to what it is now, finished with residency. Maybe that will be me in a few years. I figure there's no sense in being upset at things you can't control. I learned that in military.

Well, I think you have a good point. Like I mentioned up there with my friend and his dad, his dad's net influence on his son was largely positive. We'll provide so much for our kids through our jobs, ultimately it's a huge net positive for our family, kids, etc... assuming it doesn't lead to a divorce. My huge complaints are personal sacrifice. Like I said, my kid won't know I missed her first steps, but I'll remember. If I miss her first steps but can afford to raise her comfortably, give her a good education, make her future financially stable, is it worth my misery? Probably so.

A large reason I went in to medicine was to give my kids a better future. They'll have that, but it's going to cost me some of my sanity to do so. I'm sure it's overall worth it, but it does suck in the meantime. I do think that other specialties may offer less sacrifice during residency than surgical specialties.

 

[mehc012]

Was it the same guy with Alzheimer's? Or two different people who said the same thing?

lol 2 people, slightly different phrasings. The main treatment for both was simply BIPAP, though. They were in the same room, so maybe they rubbed off on another?

 

[geneexpression]

Have you or @NickNaylor every worked a professional, full time job in your life?

Nothing about being unhappy with a job is unique to medicine.

It annoys me when med students/physicians complain about how hard and terrible medicine is because so many of them fail to realize that the alternatives aren't roses and daises.

I will admit I am not a physician. I work as a healthcare consultant in NYC. I just got finished with work at midnight tonight and I regularly work until 1 am multiple times a week (plus 3 out of 4 weekends a month). Guess how much I get paid? A crappy $80k. And I'm incredibly lucky. Most people will work their entire lives and not make as much as I make in my first job out of college.

The alternative jobs that are available to potential premeds are all hard and difficult. Coming from someone not in the medical field, all the whining physicians do is completely annoying.

Everyone works hard. All jobs suck. Being a doctor isn't any different or special in this regard. If you don't like what you're doing then quit.

But don't expect anyone (especially not the general public) to feel sorry about you when the poorest paid physicians are still making $150K.

I know I'm on SDN when I see people calling an $80K salary crappy.

 

[NontradCA]

We can agree to disagree. I work in a different world where power structures fall with every mistake, I can't relate to pulling rank. In my world, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and we're all better if that's pointed out so that no one dies when something blows up. On this board (and from what the practitioners on this board say), in medicine you know your role in the pecking order and you can only correct those below you in said order. Generations come and they die, and their ideas die with them. I'm hoping this one is on the way out. The public image of Doctors right now is dismal, I don't think this old skool ego power structure is doing them any favors in that regard, nor is it making better Doctors, in my non-experience-zero-rank-on-the-power-structure opinion.



Edit, N'M

I don't know if you're referring to all issues in general, in which case I agree with you but I think when it comes to actual medicine and the practice of it, those higher up in the pecking order very clearly know more than those below them.

 

[mmag]

I think articles like this should be read by all pre-meds. Medical school and a career in medicine should have an informed consent process just like how we inform of our patients of the risk and benefits of any procedure.
There are patients who think doctors should be nuns and priests who take a vow to serve (not to mention poverty) and are outraged at any peep of discontentment. There are fortunately pre-meds who at least on paper seem like the next Mother Teresa or Father Damien. As long as the expectations match then there's not a problem.