How Do I Rank Programs?

[JanetteBournes]

I wanted your advice.

I was given an interview at a program where I didn't think I would get an interview. It went okay considering it was early in the interview season. This is my dream program and I would love to make it #1. Everyone is advising me to rank it #1 as the golden rule of the ROL is "rank em how you like em"

But, I also completed an away rotation at a smaller, less prestigious program. I completed the interview last week and walked away feeling it went much better than the aforementioned interview. Would it help me to send a letter of intent to this less prestigious program and rank them #1 instead of ranking my dream program #1? I'm not sure how much this letter would help but I got to know everyone quite well on the away and get the impression a letter of intent here would help more than the letter of intent at the large prestigious institution.

I'd love to be a dermatologist from this dream program but at the end of the day, I'd really like to just be a dermatologist. Help!

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[jamieson]

i can't say with any authority (bcuz i don't really know how it works), but i get the feeling that letting programs know they are #1 doesn't carry much weight.

i'm betting that if you can get a faculty member from your home program who has connections with someone at your #1 to make a call on your behalf, that might possibly bump you up a notch.

likewise, if you have a personal connection with someone on the committee (i.e. someone you interviewed with that you've kept in touch with) i would say it's probably worth it letting them know.

otherwise, unless you get the feeling you're already being strongly considered and could be teetering on the borderline of "rank to match", i figure it's not worth the bother.

then again, i could be totally wrong...

 

[dermie09]

I really don't understand why you (and many others) would rank based on where you think you'll match - rank based on where you want to go!

You alternatively can just tell these top 2 that you really really want to go ... I've been shy of telling my #1 in case it changes in the next 40 or so days...

 

[Ignite hardcore]

40 or so, more like 20.

I would rank the dream school number one and still send a letter to the smaller program and say "I really want to be a part of your program, blah blah blah."

 

[opencomedo]

I have thought about this a lot and I think I understand how the matching system works... kind of.....

If I am right, programs should rank based on who they want and you should rank based on where you would like to wind up.... For instance, if you rank your dream school #1 and they rank you #30 the computer will go to your #2 school's list next (assuming your #1 fills in its top 29), and see if it can fit you in to their list.... if they have 2 spots and you are #1 or 2, you match there, if not, the computer makes sure there isnt anyone higher on that program's list than you that has not received a spot at a program higher on their personal list... as long as it doesnt find someone ranked higher on your #2 school's list that is still unmatched at programs higher on their own list you will match at your #2 school and it goes on and on...

The gist of it is, the computer is going to get you a spot at the best program it can based on your list... If a school on your list don't rank you high enough to match, you won't match there regardless of where you put it on your list... or, in a positive light, if a program ranks you to match, it doesn't matter where you put them on your list, if you don't get a spot at the schools higher on your list you will have a spot there... So, in the end, the only way you can hurt yourself in making your ROL is by putting a school you would like to go to below one that you would prefer to not go to... Don't overthink it, swing for the fences

 

[brightoats]

Does anybody know what date programs have to submit their rank list?

You could also say "I intend to rank you #1". It may be true right now, but who knows, your intentions may change

All this talk is, of course, against the spirit of the match. If programs are ranking people higher just because they think those people will rank them higher, then they have self-esteem issues and I'd think twice about going there (altho somewhere is better than nowhere). It's not like the NIH gives out funding based on how low the programs go into their lists!!!!

 

[opencomedo]

they have to submit by 2/25 just like us.... they had to commit to the number of available spots by 1/31....

 

[Dermocrat]

OP, I can totally see your dilemma. I have heard rumors all along the trail that many programs (even a couple with very strong reputations) take into account a stated interest by the candidate. It makes sense--a program wants people that want to be there. Although a "you're my #1" email to your safety program would probably be highest-yield, I like ignite hardcore's suggestion. Tell your dream program they're your #1, and tell you backup that you are "highly interested" or whatever.


Brightoats, I agree with you completely. It is against the spirit of the match. Unfortunately, people violate that spirit all the time.

 

[DermMatch]

Chiming in, prompted by a PM sent to me, and replying here because I couldn't find the original post:

You've got a problem. You thought you luuuved Program A. You hurried up and sent them a passionate love letter via email.

But rank list submission date is around the corner, and geez, you're realizing now that maybe Program B is your true love in life. And frankly, your real flesh-and-blood love-in-life (girlfriend, boyfriend, fiance, wife, husband, goldfish) would definitely be happier there.

Now you're running scared. Did you hear back from Program A, the one you emailed? Doesn't matter, you sent them an email and you feel committed. And maybe they track these things. Don't programs have a looooong memory? Wouldn't they be pissed if you ranked Program B?

Aren't you honor-bound to rank Program A #1?

NO.

The name of the game: You.

You are number one. Screw the programs, you can send all the kissy lovey email you want, the ultimate showdown is between you and NRMP.

RANK WHOM YOU WANT, HOW YOU WANT.

First of all, how do you even know that Program A likes you back?

And even if they like you, will they rank you high?

And even if they rank you number one, and you don't end up there, they'll get their number two with whom they'll be just as happy.

And the next time Program A's PD sees you at the AAD, s/he'll have forgotten about the random email s/he got from you 2 years ago which was embedded in the 100 other emails s/he got about patients and research and complaining residents and upset medical assistants and about how their kid has the flu...

and you'll be fine.

 

[RWillan]

well said.

 

[03Doc]

The above advice is solid - the first thing to realize is that there is NO penalty for ranking the Top Program A first. If they don't take you, you will be considered at Lower Program B as if they were your #1 in the first place. The computer doesn't care.

What seems to be the issue is how strongly can you say you love B without the worry that you will end up at A and leaving B saying "WTF?" I would be strong in your wording, after all, they ARE your #2 choice - but I would steer clear of telling two programs they are both your #1. Derm is a small field. Some programs will respond positively to knowing that you really want to be there, and some won't care. It's hard to know which are which, but a nice email saying how happy you would be to end up there can't hurt.

Now to me my own devil's advocate... You said you didn't even think you would get an interview at Program A. It's probably more likely that you will end up at B, so you might want to show them some love, even though A is #1 on your list!

 

[Guest ABC]

What if you only had 2 interviews, and you ranked Program A as #1 and Program B as #2? Then, for example, they ranked you as #20 and #1, respectively. Given that there about about 10 interviews per slot, could you possible go unmatched?

 

[discontinuebed]

There's no way to game the match. Your love letters will make them feel warm and fuzzy but in all likelihood, the rank meeting occurred after you left on interview day and was conducted as a panel. One letter to the PD is unlikely to bump you significantly.

So again, you should rank it based on where you'd like to be.

 

[dermie09]

What if you only had 2 interviews, and you ranked Program A as #1 and Program B as #2? Then, for example, they ranked you as #20 and #1, respectively. Given that there about about 10 interviews per slot, could you possible go unmatched?

It depends on how many slots Program A, B have and if their top candidates rank them high or not:

It could be Program A if their top 20 (or slightly less depending on how many slots they have) don't want to go there and ranked another program higher. Or it could be B ... If not Program A, then DEFINITELY B, since they ranked you #1 AND you ranked them. So you will definitely match given this scenario.

It seems that you don't understand how the match works (it's confusing so no worries). First, the match is in YOUR favor..meaning you will NOT match into a program simply because THEY rank you #1..unless you ranked them highly too.

The way it works (example scenario):
Let's say I rank Program A #1 (which has 4 slots), and Program B #2 (2 slots).

Match algorithm then looks to see where Program A ranked me ... let's say it does, but I'm #5 in the list. Unfortunately, their top 4 candidates ranked them #1, so I won't match there - since now all 4 of their slots are accounted for. Then it looks at Program B ... I am ranked #4...BUT I get lucky cuz some of their top candidates didn't rank them highly and end up at some other program..so I get in!

(It's actually a wee bit more complicated but works out to be the same essentially). It does this algorithm 3 times to make sure it did it right.

(someone correct me if I am wrong!)