How much do Psy.D. programs cost and how do people pay for them?

[mikaa]

I'm currently in the process of waiting to hear from the rest of the schools. I applied to 6, 5 clincial Ph.D. programs, and one Psy.D. program. I really like the Pys.D. program after the interview. The only problem is $$$!!!

It's $33k a year!! I don't know how I'm going to pay that back. I can see two options, either suck it up and take out a whole bunch of loans, or re-apply to a Ph.D. program next year where it's free.

I was wondering if anyone knows how much Pys.D. programs generally cost? Does $33k a year sound like a crazy amount, or is it just me?

And if you're currently doing a Psy.D., how do you manage financially?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated as I'm totally stressed out about this. Thanks!

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[lazure]

Do a PhD

 

[mikaa]

Do a PhD

I'm afraid I don't have that option since I still haven't heard from the ph.d. programs (bad news).

 

[Flutterbyu]

My PsyD program is around $23k, so I think $33 does sound high. I go to a smaller program though. I have taken out loans but I am also maximizing my opportunities while I am here, networking and only seeking out top-notch internships. Also, I am focusing on a specialty field when I graduate. Those who plan to practice straight therapy are starting to panic about their loan situation. If you want to be a therapist it is probably not the most economical route.

 

[mmonte4]

what are phyD's options aside from therapy?

 

[mmonte4]

what are psyD's options aside from therapy?

 

[MI2005]

I work now with a couple people who are in the process of getting a psy.d. from a free standing professional school that has opened franchises all over the country. One person anticipates her loan payment will be about $1,500/month, and this is just to pay back loans from this program. Obviously, I don't have all the information about her repayment period, cost of living during school, etc., but I can't imagine how a psychologist will pay back such a staggering amount of debt. If I were the original poster, I'd consider taking a year off to work in research and then finding a more clinically oriented (funded) Ph.D. program to go to in a year. Many JDs and MDs would have trouble paying back that much debt!

 

[MI2005]

Additionally, if you do decide you would need to take out loans, you might consider figuring out how much you would have to pay each month to see if you think it would be a realistic amount for you:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I'd be more willing to pay for a university based program with a strong reputation than a for profit school openly competing to be larger than the University of Phoenix, which sends out spam to get students.

 

[mikaa]

It really doesn't matter. The economic justification does not flow. A PsyD is not an MD or a JD and the economic benefit of the degree does not merit the expenditure.

It sounds like the only reason you're considering jumping on the PsyD train is because you didn't get into a PhD program. Sadly, I think that's probably the most common reason people jump on the PsyD train.

I'd suggest PhD or a different field.

Actually, the only reason I would consider a Ph.D. program is that its FREE!! It's a nobrainer. Otherwise I think a Psy.D. program (a good one that is) is more compatible with what I would like to spend my graduate career doing, taking classes and getting practicum experiences, not research. Been there, done that, decided that if I can help it, I've had enough research for now. And it so happens that this is a good Psy.D. program (it's the PGSP-Standford program).

 

[Psyclops]

If you don't like research then you might ant to consider another field. I don't mean to preach to you and you most likely are aware, but research drives your practica. If you want to be doing it right you should be consuming a whole lot of research, i would go with the degree that better prepares you to consume that research.

 

[Psyclops]

Sorry, but it always boils down to that argument (aparently).

 

[mikaa]

I work now with a couple people who are in the process of getting a psy.d. from a free standing professional school that has opened franchises all over the country. One person anticipates her loan payment will be about $1,500/month, and this is just to pay back loans from this program. Obviously, I don't have all the information about her repayment period, cost of living during school, etc., but I can't imagine how a psychologist will pay back such a staggering amount of debt. If I were the original poster, I'd consider taking a year off to work in research and then finding a more clinically oriented (funded) Ph.D. program to go to in a year. Many JDs and MDs would have trouble paying back that much debt!

Thanks for the constructive comments. See if this makes sense, a typical Ph.D. program typically takes 7 years, where as a Psy.D. takes 5. So the Psy.D. would get a 2 year head start financially.

I wish more Psy.D.s would come and defend their positions

 

[Psyclops]

I think you should listen to Jon Snow, this shouldn't be about financial decisions, if that's what the equation boils down to go ont another field. I don't mean to sound condesending, but I think that $ shouldn't entice you into this field, or any othr for that matter.

 

[mikaa]

If you don't like research then you might ant to consider another field. I don't mean to preach to you and you most likely are aware, but research drives your practica. If you want to be doing it right you should be consuming a whole lot of research, i would go with the degree that better prepares you to consume that research.

"Consuming" seems to be the operative word. I will be learning to "consume" research in a "good" Psy.D. program. I don't see why this is so differnt from the med school model, where med students take course first their first 2 years, then do rotations in hospitals their last 2 years. Seems to work out well for them. So I don't understand what you mean by doing it "right"??

 

[Psyclops]

I was being a jerk, I'm not a huge fan of the Vail Model.

 

[mikaa]

I think you should listen to Jon Snow, this shouldn't be about financial decisions, if that's what the equation boils down to go ont another field. I don't mean to sound condesending, but I think that $ shouldn't entice you into this field, or any othr for that matter.

I wanted to persue a degree in psychology becasue I genuinely like the subject and like to help people, and I think a doctorate will help prepare me for that. The money only comes into the euqation because I'm trying to be realistic here at the same time. And by the way, $ didn't entic me into this field, otherwise I'd picked law school or business school. But I do need to get by while soaking in the higher education, and that's why I have to consider the money factor. It is a big factor, right?

 

[Psyclops]

Ultimately yes, i think it is, but I like to think (maybe naively) that if you do something you like, and aren't a complete idiot about your decisions you will be fine.

 

[JatPenn]

I wanted to persue a degree in psychology becasue I genuinely like the subject and like to help people, and I think a doctorate will help prepare me for that. The money only comes into the euqation because I'm trying to be realistic here at the same time. And by the way, $ didn't entic me into this field, otherwise I'd picked law school or business school. But I do need to get by while soaking in the higher education, and that's why I have to consider the money factor. It is a big factor, right?

if this is the case and you're interested in therapy more so than assessment, just get a MSW. quicker, more cost effective, and you can help tons of people in tons of different settings.

 

[mikaa]

if this is the case and you're interested in therapy more so than assessment, just get a MSW. quicker, more cost effective, and you can help tons of people in tons of different settings.

Which leads to my question, I do not wish to offend anybody, but are MSW's sufficiently trained to provide therapy? After all, it's only a 2 year program.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

The PsyD program I was applying to was 18k so yes 33 is a lot. Not to be nosy, but which program was that high?!

Here is my situation: I go to a state university and live home, so as an undergraduate my entire education has cost about $15,000! Now most people going for PhD's spent 4+ years at a major research unviersity, paying $30,000-40,000 a year (maybe or maybe not including housing)...they will get their doctorate for free, I will pay (and probably a LOT) for a PsyD..but with the money I saved up, it will literally equal out to what most people paid to go to a major university as an undergrad.

Honestly you have to do what's right for you. I live in the Northeast so obviously the way of thinking here is very PRO=PsyD because it's a new degree and it's viewed WAY differently here than say, the midwest! If what you're goals are, match what a PsyD program has to offer you--wouldnt you want the MOST possible experience utilizing your skills and gain more experience doing exactly what you plan to do when you're finished? That's sure as heck why I'm choosing a PsyD over a PhD.

PhD's are *amazing* and I have so much respect for them, but it's just NOT for me..that's all there is to it. The PsyD completely matches my itnerests as well as my personal goals. Don't listen to all the negativity aimed at the degree, it wouldn't exist if it wasn't necessary and useful to many clinicians.

Hope this helped...
Jon

 

[juliana_yoohoo]

hi everyone!

i chose to go for psyd because really, it fits with my personal and career goals... although cost is a concern because i am canadian... it's too bad that they don't have any psyd programs in canada... at all...

and it doesn't matter THAT much where u go or which degree u pursue... it's how u make of the experience... i was talking to a post doc student who graduated from adler school of professional psychology, and she's mainly doing research now... opportunities will always be there...

anyways, i have interviews coming up and i'm quite nervous!!! i wish everyone the best!!!

 

[Flutterbyu]

what are psyD's options aside from therapy?

Big one- assessment
Specialties- health psych, neuropsych, forensic psych, etc.

 

[Flutterbyu]

Actually, the only reason I would consider a Ph.D. program is that its FREE!! It's a nobrainer. Otherwise I think a Psy.D. program (a good one that is) is more compatible with what I would like to spend my graduate career doing, taking classes and getting practicum experiences, not research. Been there, done that, decided that if I can help it, I've had enough research for now. And it so happens that this is a good Psy.D. program (it's the PGSP-Standford program).

Individual differences, I swear they don't teach that in PhD programs. I am in an internship right now at a top teaching hospital, working alongside PhD students from an Ivy League program. Not only am I killing them with my ability to relate to something other than a book and a theory, but these people are not even happy because they are being forced to do work that they don't want to do. My PsyD program is practically cutomized and I do not regret my decision for one second. As far as debt goes, I talk to alumni from my program all the time and guess what? They have homes, they have families, they have careers.

I used to battle this position all the time on here, but I have been busy in my (quite demanding!) PsyD program so I haven't been able to. I wonder what Freud would say about all the defensive rhetoric spouted by Phds around here...

 

[JatPenn]

Freud also loved cocaine so much he wrote a book about it.

Flutterby- this practice technique you "kill" with is not drive by theory? God forbid.

 

[Psyclops]

They irony is that the PsyDs would have to design a study to show that they can practice any better than PhDs. Which isn't the case anyway.

 

[Flutterbyu]

First of all I was kidding about Freud, why so sensitive? Second, not only is my undergraduate thesis in the process of publication(!) but my PsyD program requires a dissertation. Psychology is neither learned nor taught in a vacuum, get real.

I have gotten sucked in to this endless debate and I am respectfully bowing out. I have better things to do with my time.

Cheers

 

[Annakei]

Ive mulled over doing the PHD/PsyD issue over and over ad nauseum but Im not sure that the result outweighs the benefits anymore. Unless I go for a PHD or PsyD/JD at 2 specific schools then it won't be worth it for me. $140k extra in loans isnt attractive when psychologists typically get paid less than 70k out of grad school. Ive worked with LPCs making more money doing less work (I can show you proof of the job listings) and having less responsibility so thats that for me.

I dont want to be burdened by student loans, truly I dont. Ive been to quite a few conferences and 7 out of the 11 people I talked to begged me to reconsider because of the state of psychology today. Many said they would have done a PsyD but then that cost too much and PHDs are having a hard time finding jobs. HELL the JDs are too!! Its a sautrated market and unless you can find your niche then you are stuck with the rest with no plan and full intentions of doing 100% therapy know understanding it takes time and networking to build a caseload. So im conflicted and while I usually just make a decision and suck it up, Im reconsidering for now. Getting a another hybrid seems best but the focused one would be even better as it is muy cheapo!

Flutterbyu,dont flame me TRuly you know I respect your decision as we've talked about this off the board. After thinking things through again and the fact that I am incurring more loans for my grad program and the thought of piling on MORE is quite daunting.

I am currently in a Counseling Psychology program (applying for the Forensic dual so make it a Forensic/Counseling Psychology MA) and upon graduation I will be eligible for licensure after taking the exam and getting the required about of hours for supervision. After looking at job prospects in the field, I must say that I am disappointed in the salaries offered to DOCTORAL level clinicians as they arent THAT far off from MA level folks. I am interested in going the forensic route and have been considering Widener's PsyD/Jd program and John Jay's PHD in Forensic Psychology program. Widener will cost 24k per YEAR for 6 years. Do the math! 144K, NOT including undergraduate and other loans. Even if you are earning 100k a year dabbling in a bit of everything it still doesnt ADD UP. Bottom line is there are JDs, PSyDs and PHDs experiencing this as well. BUT the only saving grace is that

Furthermore, I dont think that PsyDs are ANY less qualified than PHDs. I see it all the time here and Ive gotten the MAIN aspect of the debate. However, I choose to see past the egotistical insults that PHDs seem to enjoy throwing at PsyDs. Choosing practice over research isnt a bad thing as long as you are TAUGHT how to VALUE and apply EMPIRICALLY SUPPORTED treatments. Thats it. Ive just come to the conclusion that paying/borrowing over 20k for 5 years to get paid around 70k doesnt make financial sense to me.

While I am getting married this year (sorry psici) and my hubby will be able to support us while I am in school, it is an unfair burden to put on us when TRULY I can achieve the same salary bracket as a PsyD/PHD.

 

[leftbrian]

I think people overdo the research vs. clinical experience debate. There are some, if not many, PhD programs who emphasize a lot on rigorous clinical training and research. Northwestern Feinberg is one of them off the top of my head. If you get into these PhD programs, chances are that you will be funded while getting the same or a bit less clinical exposure compared to other PsyD programs. Besides, let's face it, getting into a PhD program is 10 times harder than getting to a PsyD program. With a PhD degree, you always have the option of teaching whereas a PsyD candidate will not be the favored one in academia, in general, unless you want to teach at a PsyD program.

I guess my point is choose the right program.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Jon Snow,
I have friends at Iowa, George Washington, Nebraska, Miami all doing undergrad and a lot got grants..but are still paying 30k a year when all is said and done. I know, out of high school it's the right way to go..but for our major (Psychology)..it makes no 'financial sense' to get a BA in Psychology at 30k a year...but people are doing it, and reaping the rewards of full funded PhD programs. I'm just take the opposite approach!

As for these arguments, they are old, boring, and soo played out guys..it's like a broken record. you just have to go for what fits you best not what the degree is.

As for PhDs (and PsyDs) not making much money for the level of education they had...I'm sure in many cases this is VERY true. You just have to be creative in what you go into and the money/opportunities are there..but of course, this is any profession..I know many people with just HS diplomas doing very well. Creativity and timing in your field of choice is key....

 

[mpino]

it may be a financially poor decision for YOU, it is a generalization to say that it is a poor financial decision for everybody...its all about what fits best for the person...how many times do we have to say this?

 

[mpino]

In that case I will agree with you.
On a side note,I am one of the people who didnt "fall back" on a psyd program. I applied to all PsyD programs, knowing that the PhD wasnt for me. There are many people like me Snow, you should take that into consideration before you list all the reasons why a PhD is better, which I have seen you do in the past on other blogs. The degree exists because there is a need for it. People work very hard to get into programs, which I am very happy I have, (and before you ask, I have been accepted to professional schools AS WELL AS university based programs, which I admit do provide a large ammount of tuition reimbursement), I think that you should respect the academic decisions others make without denigrating their worth. Psychologists should learn how to see things from points of view other than their own

 

[JatPenn]

Anyone else think we should have separate forums for PsyD and PhD clinical psychology? The debates are almost as heated as the PhD vs. Psychiatrist battles.

 

[mpino]

lol, i agree

 

[Psyclops]

mpino,

I think that even if psychologists learn to see things from others point of view they will still continue to place a value on them. Quite a bit of the field focuses on what is right or wrong behavior. If you want to go into practice as you say, you will most likely eoncounter situations in which you will ahve to tell people they are doing the wrong thing. JS thinks that PsyDs are wrong for his field.

 

[mpino]

mpino,

I think that even if psychologists learn to see things from others point of view they will still continue to place a value on them. Quite a bit of the field focuses on what is right or wrong behavior. If you want to go into practice as you say, you will most likely eoncounter situations in which you will ahve to tell people they are doing the wrong thing. JS thinks that PsyDs are wrong for his field.

Yes, but he doesnt realize he is insulting potential future colleagues.

 

[mpino]

Snow you are making many faulty assumptions about the intelligence and academic ability of Psyd's as well as their motivations for pursuing the degree. I'm not going to go on with this conversation.

 

[PsyDGrrrl]

I'm sick of your PsyD-bashing, JonSnow.

First off, I can earn just as much as a PhD in clinical practice. That's bull**** that a PsyD is less economically viable.

Second, I feel that I got much better clinical training than most PhD's. I may have gone to a professional school, but I think I am highly skilled and qualified for what I do. The education you get in grad school is only a foundation, though: the real training comes from your clinical work in practica and internships. I have been supervised by PhD's and MD's who have told me I am a stronger clinician than most interns and even licensed psychologists they have worked with.

Third, the competition and oversaturation of the field that you SHOULD be worrying about is the MFT's and MSW's, because THEY are the ones who can fill those positions at half the salary.

You know, there were plenty of people in my grad program who probably shouldn't have been there and are going to be lousy psychologists. But guess what? If they suck, then they shouldn't really be any competition for you then, should they?

It doesn't matter where you went to school or what your degree is; it matters what you actually learned, how you practice, and how you can present that to others.

 

[mmonte4]

I agree with Jon Snow- well said.

 

[Psyclops]

I agree that the undgrad psychology degree (in general) is a joke. I think that the field would greatly improve in both quality but perhaps more so in esteem. I think that psychology as a profession is often viewed as a joke which has a lot to do with the media's protrayal but also to how the undergrad degree is administered. If that same lack of rigor is carried on to the doctorate level then the field is continuing to suffer. Now not everyone who gets an undergrad degree in psych is a nincompoop, nor is every PsyD, MFT, LCSW, Etc. The majority probably arean't. Nor is every PhD that special. But there is something aobut the field that attracts a certain type of person who does not like working hard, or math and science which is what drives psychology today. They shouldn't be accorded the same stature, privileges, whatever as those who are hard working, skillful, etc. And the attitude shouldn't be well lets give 'em all degrees and then they can sink or swim in the workplace.

To be quite honest, if they made the undergrad degree more rigorous I would probably not have made it. But then again maybe my interest in studying the human condition would have led me to push myself and be a more strong and capable person as a result, so taht I could have stayed in it. I don't know. I certainly agree that this is a tired argument. But for some reason it seems to keep resurfacing. Maybe it's because PhDs are arogant? But maybe not. I think the field has a high potential for quackery of all kinds, and it has a history of quackery. Those who have a high investment in the field should be railing agianst it, doing all that they can to avoid it. I think that many feel that professional schools increase the odds of that.

 

[perfektspace]

I agree that the undgrad psychology degree (in general) is a joke. I think that the field would greatly improve in both quality but perhaps more so in esteem. I think that psychology as a profession is often viewed as a joke which has a lot to do with the media's protrayal but also to how the undergrad degree is administered. If that same lack of rigor is carried on to the doctorate level then the field is continuing to suffer.

I concur. At many universities the largest concentration of undergraduate major's resides in the psychology department. At my former college, which I now work for, there are a relatively limited number of RA positions available yet many of these positions are never filled. I think this speaks to the lack of seriousness most undergrad psych. majors take towards the field.

Upon graduation and the realization that the BA or BS is essentially worthless people panic and look toward graduate school to increase their chances of gainful employment. Upon realization that they have no chance at a clinical, counseling, or school Ph.D. many turn to professional schools. Unfortuneatly, the many poor students that attend Psy.D programs detract from the excellent students who are there by choice, not because they are poor candidates for Ph.D. programs (I emphasize this, I don't mean to insult the many excellent Psy.D folks on this board). I busted my butt as an undergrad to prepare myself to have a shot at getting into a clinical program and I am still on the bubble of not making it. As crappy as that is, it's the way it should be. It's a form of quality control that helps ensure the best training possible. When you consider how devastating an effect a poor mental health care professional can have on a person it bothers me that essentially anyone can become a doctor of psychology with the right amount of cash.

 

[Psyclops]

Well said, I think you summarized the source of outrage that many in the field feel. If I were a PsyD who had gone by choice and worked hard the whole way through I would be even more furious at the schools (or whatever) that had developed or furthered the poor reputaion. I'm surprised more PsyDs don't complain about the state of the vail model.

 

[Noah333]

For the last year I have read with amusement the postings concerning the relative merits of each the PhD and PsyD degrees. The debate strikes me as being as pointless as litigators and corporate attorneys arguing over whose practice of the law is more valuable. In essence, they are two separate fields with overlapping basics. Each has its relative merits, and each appeals to different people.

As someone recently admitted to the Rutgers clinical PsyD program, I challenge the comment that it is far more difficult to get into a PhD program than a PsyD program. I applied to six PhD programs that were far easier to get into than the Rutgers PsyD program. Please do your homework...

 

[Psyclops]

I disagree Noah. I think that the argument is more complicated than that. They are not seperate fields, there is a considerable amount of overlap. I do agree that each has there own relative merits (in theory). In actuality I think there is a stark contrast.

Speaking of homework though, you know you probably whouldn't be basing your opinions off of isolated examples.

 

[perfektspace]

Congrats on getting into Rutgers Noah. That is one of the most competitive clinical programs. Period. If most Psy.D's followed the model Rutgers, Baylor and a handful of others put forth this debate wouldn't be occuring. However, most programs are not of that calibre and do a disservice to the Vail model by accepting many weak students for the right amount of money. It has nothing to do with the model itself but the way it is executed.

 

[msnyc26]

_

 

[Noah333]

Not to further stir the pot but...during my interviews at PhD programs, I met two PsyD who were full faculty members of the PhD programs (granted both professors were educated at Baylor). Regardless, the door may slowly be opening for PsyDs to enter the field of PhD teaching.

 

[Psyclops]

I was trying to get a degree where I could practice therapy and didn't want to spend "years" and $100,000 on a degree....but now I feel "stuck"...while I have a degree that is license eligible, I have no prestige and have idiots for colleagues...I feel that I don't have a choice but to go back to school....

This is what everyone who complain about the professional schools are affraid of. I understand why you feel the way you do. I hope you are able to continue on a career you enjoy.

 

[msnyc26]

_

 

[Psyclops]

I hate to point out the obvious, but why not try and shoot for a fully funded doctoral program, in whatever field you want. The loans should be deferable if you go into more school, no?

I also don't think you wated your time if it helped you decide what you really wanted to do and pushed you on the right track for you.

 

[SaraL124]

There are many funded PhD programs out there that have an equal balance of clinical and research emphasis. There are even some that are more clinically oriented. Also, if you look into schools that do research on treatment (CBT/ACT) you may find more of a clinical focus (...Drexel).