How much do Psy.D. programs cost and how do people pay for them?

[homoscedastique]

Something that is lost in all the discussions is that among PsyD programs the BEST ones tend to be the CHEAPEST. Neat, huh? By best I mean most academically rigorous and highest internship match rates.

In addition to Baylor and Rutgers, look into solid state schools like Indiana State and Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, and also the Virginia Consortium. These latter schools are still not well-known outside their respective areas (and their websites are distinctly unflashy) but their graduates do VERY well.

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[mpino]

Something that is lost in all the discussions is that among PsyD programs the BEST ones tend to be the CHEAPEST. Neat, huh? By best I mean most academically rigorous and highest internship match rates.

In addition to Baylor and Rutgers, look into solid state schools like Indiana State and Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, and also the Virginia Consortium. These latter schools are still not well-known outside their respective areas (and their websites are distinctly unflashy) but their graduates do VERY well.

I interviewed at Inidiana U of Pennsylvania and I loved it. I am still waiting to hear from them. Any other info on their program?

 

[homoscedastique]

overall i would say the quality of the students in an msw program is extremely poor....many are working women from poor neighborhoods and, not to sound elitist or rude, I question how NYU allowed this calliber of student to be admitted -- and most of my peers in this program have been *****s

the stereotype of social workers holds true (eccentric, ill-equipped, untrained etc).

I have idiots for colleagues....

Honey, you is elitist and rude. I wish I could hear what those "*****s" have to say about you...

 

[homoscedastique]

I interviewed at Inidiana U of Pennsylvania and I loved it. I am still waiting to hear from them. Any other info on their program?

Yes, I live in the area and work with several of their graduates. You probably know they have a very high internship match rates and some excellent profs (who I also work with on occasion).

 

[mpino]

Yes, I live in the area and work with several of their graduates. You probably know they have a very high internship match rates and some excellent profs (who I also work with on occasion).

Yeah I was really impressed with the program. High internship rates, and not very expensive at all compared to other schools.i was accepted into. ironically, the program actually seemed pretty heavy in research. its def my top choice right now. thanks a lot for the info.

 

[Flutterbyu]

Flutterbyu,dont flame me TRuly you know I respect your decision as we've talked about this off the board. After thinking things through again and the fact that I am incurring more loans for my grad program and the thought of piling on MORE is quite daunting.

Annakei I am happy that you are making decisions that make sense for you. That is what burns me up on these boards, everyone overgeneralizes everything!! There are great PsyD programs and there are horrible ones, but the same goes for Phd. I really tried to stay out of this one but I just couldn't resist

 

[Flutterbyu]

I'm sick of your PsyD-bashing, JonSnow.

First off, I can earn just as much as a PhD in clinical practice. That's bull**** that a PsyD is less economically viable.

Second, I feel that I got much better clinical training than most PhD's. I may have gone to a professional school, but I think I am highly skilled and qualified for what I do. The education you get in grad school is only a foundation, though: the real training comes from your clinical work in practica and internships. I have been supervised by PhD's and MD's who have told me I am a stronger clinician than most interns and even licensed psychologists they have worked with.

Third, the competition and oversaturation of the field that you SHOULD be worrying about is the MFT's and MSW's, because THEY are the ones who can fill those positions at half the salary.

You know, there were plenty of people in my grad program who probably shouldn't have been there and are going to be lousy psychologists. But guess what? If they suck, then they shouldn't really be any competition for you then, should they?

It doesn't matter where you went to school or what your degree is; it matters what you actually learned, how you practice, and how you can present that to others.

well said

 

[Flutterbyu]

Well said, I think you summarized the source of outrage that many in the field feel. If I were a PsyD who had gone by choice and worked hard the whole way through I would be even more furious at the schools (or whatever) that had developed or furthered the poor reputaion. I'm surprised more PsyDs don't complain about the state of the vail model.

I can kind of grab onto this one. I graduated undergrad first in my class from a top state university. No it wasn't Ivy League, but I assure you it was a quality school. I applied to one graduate program, the only school I was willing to spend 4 years of my life in and I was accepted. It is a PsyD program and I cannot imagine my life any other way. I would be miserable in a Phd program and at this point in my life, I guess I would rather be happy than rich.

As far as getting all bent out of shape over the saturation of lesser-quality PsyDs, I figure that as ling as I maintain my level of quality work then I will be fine. Lets be honest with ourselves, bad psychologists are not going to last. If you are good at what you do, you will be fine. I am good at what I do, hence I do not stress myself out even more worrying.

 

[Pterion]

I earned a Psy.D. from a well-respected program. Sure, the paper mills and the half-a** students/colleagues will always frustrate me. They get out of professional schools and confirm the stereotype.

I chose PsyD for the reasons others have posted: a more clinically-oriented training program. The training was excellent. My clinical skills were clearly further evolved than my PhD colleagues on internship.

Then I got into the real world. I didn't get into psychology to be rich. I did, however, expect to own a home, a car, pay for kids education, etcetera. My salary was the same as my PhD colleagues. My debt load was several orders of magnitude larger. As good as my training was, it did not create from ether a job whose salary could match my debt. I am forced to admit that in retrospect I was misled regarding my debt-to-income ratio. When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
1. Have a very different experience
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)
3. Get realistic appraisals of debt-to-income. The sticker shock can cause heart attacks
4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.
5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.
6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill. Identifying the exaggerated reported effect size of a behavioral intervention by noting the lack of inclusion of "intent to treat" analysis" will get you a lot further.

Ok, that's enough. End of catharsis.

 

[mikaa]

When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Isn't the whole point of landing a good intership is so that you'll have better chances at landing a good job? After all, that's how they distinguish the superior psychologists from the mediocre ones (that goes for both Psy.D's and Ph.D's). Otherwise, why bother making an effort in grad school?

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

For curiorsity's sake, if you were so "burdened" by your Psy.D. debt, how did you manage to foot up half the cost of that to do your MD?

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)

I thought you did mentioned that you went to a reputable school?

4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.

couldn't agree more!

5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.

so pessimistic!

6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill.

I beg to differ. Many professionals are "critical consumers" of research, physicians, nurses, optometrists, the list goes on. And it's certianly NOT an undergraduate skill. Were you able to "critically consume" empirical psychological research when you were an undergrad? Please don't insult higher education.

 

[Annakei]

I just completed an MSW program at NYU and I feel I can speak accurately regarding the training....the short answer is NO...MSW's are for the most part NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED....this has been my personal experience both within my program and at various internships that I have had...I was in a unique position because I completed a moderately rigorous undergradute program in psychology at the univ. of hartford (where they have a great psyd program) and I have lots of clinical experience in the field...plus my step-mother is a therapist in private practice...

overall i would say the quality of the students in an msw program is extremely poor....many are working women from poor neighborhoods and, not to sound elitist or rude, I question how NYU allowed this calliber of student to be admitted -- I can only surmise that MSW programs are "easier" because NYU (while not IVY league) doesn't typically accept poor students -- and most of my peers in this program have been *****s

at internships and in field work the MSW's I have come across have only frightened me away from the field....I must say that I am truly embarassed to admit to holding this sort of degree, because from what I have witnessed, the stereotype of social workers holds true (eccentric, ill-equipped, untrained etc).

I was trying to get a degree where I could practice therapy and didn't want to spend "years" and $100,000 on a degree....but now I feel "stuck"...while I have a degree that is license eligible, I have no prestige and have idiots for colleagues...I feel that I don't have a choice but to go back to school....

You are soo kidding me right? You racist elitist #$%@!! Ugh I am sick to my stomach reading your post!!!

Who are you to assert that "working women from poor neighbourhoods" are low calibur? That was such a nit-wit statement if Ive heard one on this board. There is a reason WHY YOU are stuck and other MSWs have found their nitch in other areas within the field. You are the CLASS of social worker we frown upon at CMHC who come out of SW school thinking that you can just run into your own practice OR that you are above other "MSW" work. What prestige are you looking for with an MSW? You are your won worst enemy because YOU are the type that brings shame to that field with your off beat comments. You should be ashamed to even say that you hold such a DEGREE heck I doubt you hold ANY with that kind of post. Jeez I promise if I knew who you were Id contact your issuing institution letting them know how much of a shame you are to the profession-NO LIE.

I am not an MSW, but I have worked with them. I do agree that their program doesnt adequately train them to be psychotherapists HOWEVER it is a great field mostly characterized by people who care about their communities and dont mind working IN the community to facilitate change.

Sweety you're the idiot for making the comments that you did. Im surprised only one other person addressed it but heck it was out of line and dear you have ALOT of learning to do.

All-forgive my outburst but I am absolutely appauled by this posters comments .

 

[Pterion]

Isn't the whole point of landing a good intership is so that you'll have better chances at landing a good job? After all, that's how they distinguish the superior psychologists from the mediocre ones (that goes for both Psy.D's and Ph.D's). Otherwise, why bother making an effort in grad school?

For curiorsity's sake, if you were so "burdened" by your Psy.D. debt, how did you manage to foot up half the cost of that to do your MD?

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)

I thought you did mentioned that you went to a reputable school?

6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill.

I beg to differ. Many professionals are "critical consumers" of research, physicians, nurses, optometrists, the list goes on. And it's certianly NOT an undergraduate skill. Were you able to "critically consume" empirical psychological research when you were an undergrad? Please don't insult higher education.

The point of internship is lost overall. I have found that unless your internship is with a federal program or large organization, the immediate translation to a job is not linear, at least for PsyDs. Not that PsyD's don't get good jobs. Just my experience, I am certainly not claiming it's a national trend - but the posts on this forum make me wonder.

Paying for an MD? Loans and scholarships. The latter was not available as a PsyD student. My salary as an MD can afford the total debt load. This time I had a financial planner and not my professors run the numbers.

Yes, I attended a reputable school. I did very well. But these are not guarantees of anything. Just insurance, and unreliable insurance at that.

As for your opinion regarding research consumption, I respectfully disagree.

 

[Annakei]

I see where you're coming from, but what did they say that was racist?

I dont need the OP to say it, its rather clear to me. Sorry if its an assumption but Ive heard it enough to know what the OP isnt saying....

 

[Psyclops]

Anna,
I still think you are coming down rather hard on the OP (I don't know what OP stands for, i have hard time with new acronyms). I think I understand what you are reacting to (single mother, poor neighborhods), but if you took that out (and it may have been written or taken out of context) it would just be another opinion post (is that what op stands for?). I think the poster should get the benefit of the doubt. It was their personal experience. Just my opinion.

 

[Annakei]

I respect that it was the OP's personal experience. But when discussing it among fellow students/professionals, the OP needs to be a bit more careful. I have ZERO tolerance for allowances of that sort. We are all adults here, it doesnt take a sensitivity course at this stage for the OP to know that the post was rather distasteful. I understand some would rather tip toe around the subject but *shrug* I'd rather not.

I have had some horrific experiences both professionally and within academia but I WOULD NEVER come to a public forum and frame it as such. NEVER. I respect all of you too much to do that albeit you get on my nerves with the incessant debates around PSyDs. It shows a lack of professionalism and maturity. GRanted my response wasnt the best but I will admit that I would NEVER think to see such a post HERE on a forum that is meant for budding student professionals. Maybe on some of the other boards I frequent but not here.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

So, those MSW programs just arent classy enough for you I suppose. You should go into Psychology you'll fit right in.

I love Psychology, but Im so happy to be graduating! All of my classmates (well those in Psych Club) are so full of this type of BS. As a group everyone gets along so well, and meanwhile everyone is talking horrible about every other person behind their back.

I lost a family member this week and had tons of family drama.I get this from my VERY well respected/known Experimental Psych professor:
"So you're missing class?! You miss my class you'll never recover"
Me: "Well Im sorry but this person passed away TODAY...Im not anywhere near the mindset to be in school..I wont be attending, this is a tough time for my family."
Professor: k.k..k..BYE.." --phone clicks..

It's this type of fakeness among students and the fact that the MINORITY of most faculties show a genuine concern to others' personal lives that make me scratch my head as to why so many socially inept and abnormal people go into Psychology...I just hope Im running into all the bad ones and this isnt how the field is as a whole, or I'll be greatly disappointed.

 

[mikaa]

The point of internship is lost overall. I have found that unless your internship is with a federal program or large organization, the immediate translation to a job is not linear, at least for PsyDs. Not that PsyD's don't get good jobs. Just my experience, I am certainly not claiming it's a national trend - but the posts on this forum make me wonder.

I cannot argue with you on this one, since this is your personal experience. But same question, how do potential employers decide who to hire if not rely on internship performance? I mean, they have to rely on SOMETHING to aid in their hiring process, right? It just seem logical to me

Paying for an MD? Loans and scholarships. The latter was not available as a PsyD student. My salary as an MD can afford the total debt load. This time I had a financial planner and not my professors run the numbers.

Yes, in general, scholarships are not available to most Psy.D. programs. But as far as I know, like Psy.D. students, med students rely primarily on loans, not scholarships. After all, a typical class has ~100 med students, scholarships a limited. And please don't forget that you're not immediately going to have your $100k MD salary rolling in after med school. You have a year of internship and 4-7 years of residency, in which you'll probably start at mid 30k, depending on which program and where you go. So yes, your MD salary will afford the total debt load, EVENTUALLY.


Yes, I attended a reputable school. I did very well. But these are not guarantees of anything. Just insurance, and unreliable insurance at that.


Well, thanks for sharing your experience anyways, it does make me think long and hard about the Psy.D. program. I might still end up choosing it, but at least I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into!

 

[codetype4/9]

I agree, but so is producing research. I published in Undergrad. It wasn't a top journal, but it wasn't difficult.

It is an undergrad skill if you apply yourself and don't coast.

 

[msnyc26]

_

 

[Annakei]

sorry to have ruffled some feathers...i was under the impression that among professionals one could express an opinion without being derided...clearly i was wrong...i know plenty of great social workers who are well trained and do good work -- my step-mother is one of them...i was speaking about my own personal experiences both in school and in the field...overall the caliber of social workers has been poor...it is a true fact that a good # of students in the msw program at nyu are working moms from poor neighborhoods...it is also a fact that many are more financially well off -- either way the majority don't present themselves as particularly intelligent....i have been able to connect with a small sect of students who, are in my opinion, intelligent and motivated, i have felt frustrated in classes when students make comments like "i don't understand why a psychiatrist can overrule my dx of a patient" (umm duh! years of med school plus you are still a student)...there are people like this in any program (med school, phd, psyd, masters prgrms etc) however i have felt a high concentration in my msw program....i can't speak for everyone or about every program but as stated previously these have been my experiences....my overall point about msw's not having adequate training to do do psychotherapy still holds, unless they put themselves through an institute program (freudian society, MIP, etc) they will not receive the training even in a "clinical" msw program (like nyu)...unlike some people on this forum, i don't use it as a way to attack anonymous posters (because what would the point be really) but as a way to gather information about other programs and share the experiences (positive and negative) that i have had

Blah, whatever credibility albeit you are anonymous is lost. Everyone has an opinion, however as a professional regardless of the setting you should learn how to frame experienes so that they arent miscontrued. I am willing to bet that if we were at a public forum you would have said that way differently.

Furthermore, miss me with the "unlike some people in this forum" crap. You brought this on yourself. Granted we have all had some heated debates in which harsh words have been exchanged but they have done so in a professional manner. You my dear took that to another level. So you may need to go home and cry about the state of your career and wonder why its in the dumps. I think it has more to do with your attitude and outlook than it does the field.

 

[msnyc26]

_

 

[Psychbird]

msnyc - when you were writing about "poor" people, did you mean bad students or poor people economically?

 

[Psyclops]

msnyc - when you were writing about "poor" people, did you mean bad students or poor people economically?

I think she meant people who are bad at doing schoolwork.

 

[vesper9]

msnyc

you said

maybe you should examine why you have such strong reactions to postings on here and why you feel the need to be so hostile

it's because you implied that NYU shouldn't be accepting "working women from poor neighborhoods" to the MSW program b/c they're all *****s (you didn't mention the well-off students being unintelligent until you got called out)

Even if this isn't what you meant...this is exactly what your post souned like and instead of immediately being defensive, you should consider how a generalized and sloppy statement like this sounds.

I also completely agree with Annakei that you need a lot more diversity training if you're going to be a social worker (and the fact that you feel these comments are appropriate around your "colleagues" or other professionals is also a big red flag)

 

[PsyDGrrrl]

You are soo kidding me right? You racist elitist #$%@!! Ugh I am sick to my stomach reading your post!!!

Who are you to assert that "working women from poor neighbourhoods" are low calibur? That was such a nit-wit statement if Ive heard one on this board. There is a reason WHY YOU are stuck and other MSWs have found their nitch in other areas within the field. You are the CLASS of social worker we frown upon at CMHC who come out of SW school thinking that you can just run into your own practice OR that you are above other "MSW" work. What prestige are you looking for with an MSW? You are your won worst enemy because YOU are the type that brings shame to that field with your off beat comments. You should be ashamed to even say that you hold such a DEGREE heck I doubt you hold ANY with that kind of post. Jeez I promise if I knew who you were Id contact your issuing institution letting them know how much of a shame you are to the profession-NO LIE.

I am not an MSW, but I have worked with them. I do agree that their program doesnt adequately train them to be psychotherapists HOWEVER it is a great field mostly characterized by people who care about their communities and dont mind working IN the community to facilitate change.

Sweety you're the idiot for making the comments that you did. Im surprised only one other person addressed it but heck it was out of line and dear you have ALOT of learning to do.

All-forgive my outburst but I am absolutely appauled by this posters comments .

AGREED!

 

[Annakei]

i don't need to "go home and cry" because in fact, my career is not "in the dumps"....i have an excellent job and make plenty of money, i am mostly frustrated by the fact that i have to share this title with so many people i deem incompetant -- while i don't know what your background is, i'm sure you can speak regarding situations and specific people which reflected negatively on your profession --

Yes, I can. But it was done in a professional manner which spoke to their skills within the context of their work, not their socio-economic status. That is where you went wrong.

i find that there are more negative examples of social workers than positive ones....

I respect that has been your experience however "jaded". Rather typical.

i have never made mention that i had difficulty finding work, or that i had problems with my career so i'm not sure how you made that inference....i do find frustrations with the limitations of the degree, but that hasn't prohibited me from anything so far...i think there are a lot of people in many fields that give their colleagues and the profession a bad rap...maybe you should examine why you have such strong reactions to postings on here and why you feel the need to be so hostile...

Not at all hostile. Just assertive and dont tend to tip toe around comments made such as the ones you made earlier in this post. Simple if you ask me.

i'm sure that whatever it is you do,m bei do it quite well as you present as passionate and articulate, but i question why you, or anyone on here for that matter, feels the need to criticize and attack people that post their opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and everyone is entitled to post anonymously so i wonder why there is so much aggression on this forum -- the personal attacks seem out of control! whatever you choose to believe about me based on what i say here is your right

Cry me a river. You choose to see this as a projection of aggression when the problem is your lack of professionalism on a public forum You are frankly a disgrace to the field. Hey, Im being honest here.

There are many books on professionalism out there. Try reading one. I sincerely hope this was a learning experience and you truly dont take that attitude out there with you amongst your colleagues. Word travels fast in this field.

 

[Annakei]

msnyc

you said


it's because you implied that NYU shouldn't be accepting "working women from poor neighborhoods" to the MSW program b/c they're all *****s (you didn't mention the well-off students being unintelligent until you got called out)

Even if this isn't what you meant...this is exactly what your post souned like and instead of immediately being defensive, you should consider how a generalized and sloppy statement like this sounds.

I also completely agree with Annakei that you need a lot more diversity training if you're going to be a social worker (and the fact that you feel these comments are appropriate around your "colleagues" or other professionals is also a big red flag)

He/she is obviously a misfit!!


Thats my issue here. The fact that this person holds an MSW and MSWs most often deal with issues around diversity (at least here they do) and you have one here spouting off at the mouth with those comments? Youve gotta be kidding me!!!

I actually let a friend read the thread and once she came across the OP's post she was disgusted. Not by the fact that he/she was unhappy with the field but the choice of words. Her response " this person actually holds an MSW? Are you sure? I would hate to see them plopped down in an urban community doing case work. I'd like to see their reaction then"

 

[SaraL124]

I interpreted the OP's post (OP=Original Poster) as meaning that the women she was in school with and working with were underqualified because they had a lot more going on in their lives than just school. They therefore were not able to devote 100% effort to school/developing clinical skills because they were spending time raising children alone and in many cases living in poor/bad neighborhoods, aka, struggling for money (and maybe working a second job at the same time). I did not think this was a racist post, but just the way it is.

 

[Annakei]

 

[Sanman]

I earned a Psy.D. from a well-respected program. Sure, the paper mills and the half-a** students/colleagues will always frustrate me. They get out of professional schools and confirm the stereotype.

I chose PsyD for the reasons others have posted: a more clinically-oriented training program. The training was excellent. My clinical skills were clearly further evolved than my PhD colleagues on internship.

Then I got into the real world. I didn't get into psychology to be rich. I did, however, expect to own a home, a car, pay for kids education, etcetera. My salary was the same as my PhD colleagues. My debt load was several orders of magnitude larger. As good as my training was, it did not create from ether a job whose salary could match my debt. I am forced to admit that in retrospect I was misled regarding my debt-to-income ratio. When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
1. Have a very different experience
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)
3. Get realistic appraisals of debt-to-income. The sticker shock can cause heart attacks
4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.
5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.
6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill. Identifying the exaggerated reported effect size of a behavioral intervention by noting the lack of inclusion of "intent to treat" analysis" will get you a lot further.

Ok, that's enough. End of catharsis.

Hey Pterion,
I was wondering if you could clue us in to what the debt and the salaries were like for you. I have argued this point many times, but it would be great to hear what it is like from someone who was really there. My motto always was that if I couldn't go to a funded program I wouldn't go, luckily it worked out for me. I just don't know how I could justify doing that to my parents or myself if I had to take on debt. Thanks fo any info you can share.

 

[Pterion]

Hey Pterion,
I was wondering if you could clue us in to what the debt and the salaries were like for you. I have argued this point many times, but it would be great to hear what it is like from someone who was really there. My motto always was that if I couldn't go to a funded program I wouldn't go, luckily it worked out for me. I just don't know how I could justify doing that to my parents or myself if I had to take on debt. Thanks fo any info you can share.

As you know, this can not possibly be representative of all experiences nationwide. I didn't investigate the business end of clinical psychology before plunging ahead. In school I was assured that it would be fine. Shame on me. I accrued roughly 100,000 in debt, less than a third of that for living expenses for the 6 years I was in grad school. Times were tight.

I finished and entered a job in KY that paid very well for someone right out of school. Then repayment set in. The best deal I could get was monthly payment I could barely afford, even on my high middle five figure income. Promotions were unavailable. In many areas, third party reimbursement is not possible until five years of practice, restricting my opportunites for private practice. The actual job I had was horrible, but that was my own poor choice and not a reflection of the field.

I met with a financial planner several times. He was very kind, in the way you might be to a "slow" cousin. He showed us the numbers and the reality. Best we could do was to pay off our combined loans in 30 years given our likely income. And to do so would require monthly payments almost twice the size of the mortgage payment for our tiny home.

I do think that my program was excellent clinical training. I am just not at a point where I can say that I was so well trained compared to my colleagues that it justifies the exponentially greater debt. Better trained, yes. Nobel laureate? No. It just wasn't a good long term decision. I am proud of my degree, my dissertation, my publications and my performance. They have all certainly helped me immensely in med school. But if I had to do it over again, I would have gotten the PhD. Money issue only. I could have filled the training gaps other ways.

End of rant. Thank you for your patience.