Hypertonic

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Timorito

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My mcat professor online lecture showed a cell and he said the following. A prokaryotic cell or even eukary for that matter has a lot of things going on inside dnaa. ribosomes, organelles ..processes and that it creates a HYPERTONIC environment inside the cell. can someome explain what he means and why does that make water rush in from outside the cell. thanks

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All it means is that there are more solutes in the cell than outside. Water diffuses from areas of high conc. To areas of low conc.

Compare the ratios of solute to water inside and outside the cell. If the inside of the cell has more solute and less water, the net movement of water will be into the cell.
 
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Everyone's talking about osmosis here, so I'll stick to that. I just wanted to point out something.

Let's say one environment has a lot of solute and little water, and another environment has a small amount of solute and a lot of water.

All it means is that there are more solutes in the cell than outside. Water diffuses from areas of high conc. To areas of low conc.

Compare the ratios of solute to water inside and outside the cell. If the inside of the cell has more solute and less water, the net movement of water will be into the cell.

Osmosis doesn't depend on the concentration of water. Osmosis depends on the concentration of solutes. In fact, water can diffuse from an area with less water to an area with more water.

Imagine the following scenario: We have a U-shaped tube, and we place a divider at the bottom in the middle. For now, the divider is impermeable to both water and solutes. The U-tube is now divided into two equally sized parts, a left side and a right side. We pour equal amounts of water into each side. We then dissolve a bunch of salt into the water on the right side but not the left side. Ok, now, we suddenly make the divider permeable to water but not solutes. When we do that, water will diffuse from the left side into the right side, even though there is the same amount of water on both sides. The water is diffusing from an area of low solute concentration to an area of high solute concentration. Eventually, the net diffusion of water from the left to the right will stop, but halfway before the diffusion is done, water is diffusing from an area of less water to an area with more water.


On a less related note, but important for the BS section of the MCAT,

Well, I'm not sure if water would necessarily rush in because then all cells with organelles would instantly lyse from the pressure. I think it has to be transported in through membrane proteins called aquaporins.

red blood cells that are placed in pure water will lyse, as you said. Lipid bilayers are generally permeable to water, even without aquaporins, unless they are packed with steroids, which is the case with aldosterone-sensitive cells of the distal tubules of the kidney.
 
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Everyone's talking about osmosis here, so I'll stick to that. I just wanted to point out something.





Osmosis doesn't depend on the concentration of water. Osmosis depends on the concentration of solutes. In fact, water can diffuse from an area with less water to an area with more water.

Imagine the following scenario: We have a U-shaped tube, and we place a divider at the bottom in the middle. For now, the divider is impermeable to both water and solutes. The U-tube is now divided into two equally sized parts, a left side and a right side. We pour equal amounts of water into each side. We then dissolve a bunch of salt into the water on the right side but not the left side. Ok, now, we suddenly make the divider permeable to water but not solutes. When we do that, water will diffuse from the left side into the right side, even though there is the same amount of water on both sides. The water is diffusing from an area of low solute concentration to an area of high solute concentration. Eventually, the net diffusion of water from the left to the right will stop, but halfway before the diffusion is done, water is diffusing from an area of less water to an area with more water.


On a less related note, but important for the BS section of the MCAT,



red blood cells that are placed in pure water will lyse, as you said. Lipid bilayers are generally permeable to water, even without aquaporins, unless they are packed with steroids, which is the case with aldosterone-sensitive cells of the distal tubules of the kidney.

You are accurately using the words 'same amount' but I accurately used the word "concentration" in my response. Even in your example, water still moving from high conc. to low conc. of water.

Osmosis will never move water from low to high contraction of water, regardless of solute concentration. Water concentration is inversely proportional to solute concentration, so if one side has a higher solute concentration as you said, it also has a lower water concentration. Therefore, water moved from high to low water concentration in your example or "down the concentration gradient."

In your example, it moved from the side of lower water volume to higher water volume, but in the example the side with the biggest "amount" of water is actually the side with the smallest concentration... At least until equilibrium is reached.
 
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You are accurately using the words 'same amount' but I accurately used the word "concentration" in my response. Even in your example, water still moving from high conc. to low conc. of water.

Osmosis will never move water from low to high contraction of water, regardless of solute concentration. Water concentration is inversely proportional to solute concentration, so if one side has a higher solute concentration as you said, it also has a lower water concentration. Therefore, water moved from high to low water concentration in your example or "down the concentration gradient."

Perhaps you mean free water concentration? Free water molecules are water molecules that are not bound to (i.e., involved in hydrating) solvent. Free water concentration is inversely related to solute concentration. This is more of a conceptualization than a readily calculable quantity, but it sounds like this is the way you conceptualize osmosis, which is great!

On the other hand, water concentration is not inversely proportional to solute concentration. Here's why. It gets kind of messy:

Imagine we have two buckets, each filled with a liter of water. To bucket A, we add 1 mole of solute A. To bucket B, we add 1 mole of solute B. Are the resulting volumes in bucket A and B the same? No, not necessarily, because different solutes change the volume of solution differently. Some solutes increase the volume of solution. Some solutes decrease the volume of solution. Some solutes don't change the volume of solution. These effects are different for each solute and are also temperature, pressure, and concentration dependent. The change in volume per mole of solute added is called the partial molar volume of that solute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_molar_volume

If a solute has a negative partial molar volume, that means that adding a mole of solute to water will decrease the solution volume. In this case, the number of moles of water hasn't changed, but we have a smaller volume of solution, so now our solution has a higher concentration of water, even though we added solute. Thus, water concentration is not inversely proportional to solute concentration.
 
You read my mind well...I think that FREE water concentration is the most relevant concentration of water to a conversation about osmosis because free water concentration is the driving force. Your response reminded me of a few things I had long tried to block out of my mind lol. Although it's great stuff to know, I'm not sure how it changes my statement about the relationships between concentrations. When considering the information you provided, it's clear now that various solutes affect the concentration of water in different ways due to the effects on volume. However, free water molecules are the driving force of osmosis. The number of water molecules in a given volume will reflect the movement of water. The water will move from the side with a higher number or water molecules per volume to the side with fewer water molecules per volume.

Tell me where/if I'm confused here, but I'm going to expand on the bucket example. If the two buckets were separated by a semipermeable membrane, water would be free to move. Even though each side of the bucket could initially have slightly different volumes and different molarities, I think the water would move from the side with greater percentage of water molecules per volume to the side with less water molecules per volume. Am I wrong?

Osmosis is all about the number of particles, so I made the mistake of referring to concentration without clarifying I was thinking about the percentages of water compared to the solutes. If the solutes decrease by 10 percent, the water will increase by 90% in a given volume. In that context, the inverse relationship seems valid. I recognize that by substituting different solutes the volume and concentrations could change. However, the number of particles is what will determine the movement... to the best of my knowledge.

I'm somewhat confused now, but hey... at least I'm learning :)
 
Warning: huge wall of text. Most of it is nitpicky with regards to the scope of the MCAT. Suffice it to say that water diffuses from areas of low solute concentration to areas of high solute concentration; saying that water diffuses from areas of high water concentration to areas of low water concentration isn't entirely correct.

If the solutes decrease by 10 percent, the water will increase by 90% in a given volume. In that context, the inverse relationship seems valid.

This is not true. Let me try and clarify your current understanding: I imagine that you're picturing a blank sheet of paper as representing water. This blank sheet of paper represents pure water. Now, if we want to add solute, in your model, we would take a hole puncher and punch holes in that blank sheet of paper; each hole represents an amount of solute, so more holes means more solute. By this model, the more paper we have per area, the less holes we have per area, and the more holes we have per area, the less paper we have per area; thus, water and solute concentration would follow an inverse relationship by this model. Does this illustrate what you're thinking?

Aqueous solutions do not follow this hole-in-paper model. In fact, in some cases, adding solute to water can increase the concentration of water. Why is this? First, we will have to talk about the two states a water molecule can occupy in solution:

1. Bound: a water molecule can be a part of a hydration shell around an ion. A hydration shell is a shell of water molecules that surrounds an ion. So when we dissolve NaCl in water, NaCl will dissociate into Na+ and Cl-, and hydration shells will form around all the sodium ions and around all the chloride ions. The driving forces for the formation of these hydration shells are electrostatic interactions. In this picture,
220px-Na%2BH2O.svg.png

you can see a hydration shell that has formed around a sodium ion; the negative poles of water (oxygen) coordinate with the positive sodium ion. A hydration shell around a chloride ion would have the positive poles of water (hydrogen) coordinate with the negative chloride ion. Because of these favorable electrostatic interactions, a water molecule arranged in a hydration shell is in a lower energy state than in the "free" water molecules not in a hydration shell:

2. Free: a water molecule can be "free" in that it is not a part of a hydration shell. In this picture, the "free" water molecules are the grey ones labeled as "bulk water (random arrangement)."

images

(This picture also shows that a hydration shell can be several molecules thick. No need to worry about this.)

(Also note that free and bound water molecules are in a dynamic equilibrium with each other; they can swap places. No need to worry about this too much.)

Free water molecules, because they are not bound to solute molecules (as the ones in hydration shells are), are free to diffuse around. These are the free water molecules I was talking about in my previous post.
Anyways, bound water molecules that are arranged in hydration shells take up less volume, because they are packed more efficiently. On the other hand, free water molecules--which, as you can see in the picture, are randomly arranged--are not as efficiently packed and so take up more volume. Thus, a solution in which little water is free (i.e., a lot of water is bound in hydration shells) may occupy a smaller volume than a solution in which a lot of water is free (i.e., not much water is bound in hydration shells). This is why the hole-in-paper model doesn't hold here.

(This is why adding NaCl to a cup of water won't change the solution's volume that much; while a volume of aqueous NaCl is added to the cup of water, the volume of the solvent is reduced, because bound water molecules in hydration shells are more tightly packed.)

Anyways, as we increase the solute concentration of a solution, the number of free water molecules generally decreases, because it takes more water molecules to form hydration shells around an increased amount of solute. Thus, in areas of high solute concentration, we will have a low concentration of free water, and in areas of low solute concentration, we will have a high concentration of free water. Finally, because there is a higher concentration of free water where there is a lower solute concentration, free water will diffuse from areas of low solute concentration to areas of high solute concentration. Free water is free to diffuse, whereas bound water is not, so it's important to differentiate between the concentration of free water and the concentration of water.

The concentration of water is more nuanced and less helpful in predicting osmotic equilibria. For example, take the bucket example. We are going to assume that each bucket has the same number of moles of water and the same number of moles of solutes, though different solutes.

Tell me where/if I'm confused here, but I'm going to expand on the bucket example. If the two buckets were separated by a semipermeable membrane, water would be free to move. Even though each side of the bucket could initially have slightly different volumes and different molarities, I think the water would move from the side with greater percentage of water molecules per volume to the side with less water molecules per volume. Am I wrong?

You are correct that the solutions in each bucket will have slightly different volumes and thus different molarities. The bucket with a smaller volume of solution will have a higher concentration of water and a higher concentration of solute; call this bucket A. The bucket with a larger volume of solution will have a lower concentration of water and a lower concentration of solute; call this bucket B. By your reasoning, water diffuses from bucket A to B, but that would not be the case. Water diffuses from areas of low solute concentration to areas of high solute concentration, so water diffuses from bucket B to A. This is why it's important to differentiate between the concentration of free water and the concentration of water. Bucket B has a higher concentration of free water than bucket A, but bucket A has a higher concentration of water than bucket B; claiming that water diffuses from areas of high water concentration to areas of low water concentration would be wrong, because that would incorrectly predict that water diffuses from bucket A to B.

In reality, the difference in volumes between equimolar solutions might be negligible, so you wouldn't have to worry about this, especially on the MCAT, unless the MCAT asked you a question that required knowing the difference between molarity and molality.

You are correct that the driving energy for diffusion is the kinetic energy inherent in those free water molecules. However, it's much easier to predict osmotic equilibria based on solute concentrations.
 
I don't know how to quote specific phrases, so I'm going to try to ask questions about somethings in the most organized way I can without quoting. I have a few things I would like to clear up... although we are probably delving way deeper into this than the OP was hoping.

1. Can you give an example (with specific solutes and concentrations) of when adding more solute to water would increase the water concentration? You mentioned it was possible, but I'm having a hard time envisioning this even though I understand the difference between free water molecules and water bound to solutes.

2. I am specifically referring to concentrations in regard to percent composition, not molarity. If the percentage of solute increases, wouldn't the percentage of water have to decrease by the same amount? The change in volume does not factor in to the formula for calculating percent composition or the expression of concentration using mass percentages. Perhaps the word inversely proportional is not the correct word for that relationship since the solute and water would not be changing by proportional magnitudes (double one, decrease the other by 1/2) Instead, I should say that the each change by the same magnitude in regard to percent but it opposite directions.

2. I think I follow your explanation about volume changes in the buckets due to different solutes. I also agree with you about the direction of water movement. However, I don't think I follow your logic that let you to conclude bucket A had a higher water concentration than bucket B. You cantYou said the bucked with a lower volume (A) would have a higher water concentration, but I don't think it would (in terms of number of free water molecules vs the number of solute molecules). The bucket with a smaller volume would have more bound waters and less free waters. You can now assign a percentage to the number of particles in each. It could be 10 solutes for every 90 free waters. In the bucket with the bigger volume (B), there would be more free water and less bound water. In this case, let's say there 5 solutes for every 95 free waters. Bucket A is 90% free water, and bucket B is 95% free water. As you said, water would move from B to A, which is from the area of high water concentration to the area of low water concentration (free water). In your last post, you stated it was wrong of me to say water would move from high concentration to low concentration in the bucket example.

3. As a follow up to the bucket example and overall osmosis discussion, if you are saying it's wrong of me to say that water always moves from high free water concentration to low free water concentration, does that mean you are contending osmosis can cause water to move from an area of low concentration to an area of high concentration? I have never heard someone to suggest osmosis can move water up a concentration gradient. My understanding is that water always moves down the concentration gradient. If this is not the case, please provide a specific example. I'm perplexed.

4. Finally, I would ask you to take a quick look at this source from the American Society of Microbiology. It seems to confirm many of my thoughts about osmosis moving from high water concentration to low water concentration. I'm referring to the concentration of free water... as is this site.

http://www.microbelibrary.org/libra...is-a-cell-in-an-environment-that-is-hypotonic

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this. Even though I'm confused by some of what you say, it is helping me gain a complete understanding of osmosis.
 
I am looking through some physiology texts I have, and it appears that osmosis is described or defined differently in each of them. This is a quote about osmosis from one source that describes the movement of water from high concentration to low concentration. It also goes on to say it is not accurate to consider moles when discussing concentration in regard to osmosis, and the more accurate way of describing the concentration is with osmoles, which reflects the number of osmotically active particles. This would support my conclusion about which bucket has a higher concentration of water.

"Osmosis is the net diffusion of water across a selectively permeable membrane from a region of high water concentration to one that has a lower water concentration. When a solute is added to pure water, this reduces the concentration of water in the mixture. Thus, the higher the solute concentration in a solution, the lower the water concentration. Further, water diffuses from a region of low solute concentration (high water concentration) to one with a high solute concentration (low water concentration)." Guyton and Hall Textbook of Medical Physiology , Twelfth Edition
 
You are definitely right that this is beyond what OP was looking for, but I'm glad it's helping you.

After reading your last two posts, most of the confusion is coming from usages of concentration and water concentration.
2. I am specifically referring to concentrations in regard to percent composition, not molarity.

Ah, ok. What you are referring to is called the mole fraction. Concentration on the other hand is a property that is defined to be quantity per volume (e.g. molar concentration is moles/liter). You are right that the mole fraction of a solute and solvent are inversely related.

1. Can you give an example (with specific solutes and concentrations) of when adding more solute to water would increase the water concentration? You mentioned it was possible, but I'm having a hard time envisioning this even though I understand the difference between free water molecules and water bound to solutes.

I agree; this seems pretty strange. However, adding a little magnesium sulfate to water decreases the volume of solution. https://www.chem.queensu.ca/people/faculty/mombourquette/chem221/6_Mixtures/PMQ.asp

2. I think I follow your explanation about volume changes in the buckets due to different solutes. I also agree with you about the direction of water movement. However, I don't think I follow your logic that let you to conclude bucket A had a higher water concentration than bucket B. You cantYou said the bucked with a lower volume (A) would have a higher water concentration, but I don't think it would (in terms of number of free water molecules vs the number of solute molecules). The bucket with a smaller volume would have more bound waters and less free waters. You can now assign a percentage to the number of particles in each. It could be 10 solutes for every 90 free waters. In the bucket with the bigger volume (B), there would be more free water and less bound water. In this case, let's say there 5 solutes for every 95 free waters. Bucket A is 90% free water, and bucket B is 95% free water. As you said, water would move from B to A, which is from the area of high water concentration to the area of low water concentration (free water). In your last post, you stated it was wrong of me to say water would move from high concentration to low concentration in the bucket example.

The concentration of free water in bucket A is indeed lower than in bucket B. However, the concentration of water in bucket A is higher than in bucket B; bucket A has the same number of moles, n_water, of water (free + bound) as bucket B, but because the volume of bucket A, V_a, is lower than V_b,

concentration of water in A = (n_water)/(V_a) > (n_water)/(V_b) = concentration of water in B.​

When I say "concentration of water," I mean the concentration of both free and bound water molecules. When I say the "concentration of free water," I mean the concentration of only free water.

4. Finally, I would ask you to take a quick look at this source from the American Society of Microbiology. It seems to confirm many of my thoughts about osmosis moving from high water concentration to low water concentration. I'm referring to the concentration of free water... as is this site.

http://www.microbelibrary.org/libra...is-a-cell-in-an-environment-that-is-hypotonic

I like this source, because it differentiates between free water concentration and water (free + bound) concentration, except for in the first paragraph for some reason! The Guyton and Hall text probably means free water concentration when they say water concentration.

If you are using "water concentration" to mean the same thing as I mean when I say "free water concentration," then we are on the same page. I did not know that that's what you meant by "water concentration." So when you say

3. As a follow up to the bucket example and overall osmosis discussion, if you are saying it's wrong of me to say that water always moves from high free water concentration to low free water concentration, does that mean you are contending osmosis can cause water to move from an area of low concentration to an area of high concentration? I have never heard someone to suggest osmosis can move water up a concentration gradient. My understanding is that water always moves down the concentration gradient. If this is not the case, please provide a specific example. I'm perplexed

that water diffuses from high free water concentration to low free water concentration, we are in agreement.
 
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