I agree with Devitz who insist that LCME will take over COCA

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Wow I really like that actually. A very good step towards having a pipeline approach for DO student as supposed to the drop that may happen in 3rd year.

What "Drop"?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[AlteredScale]

What "Drop"?

Drop meaning variable clerkship quality.

 

[icevermin]

redacted

 

[meliora27]

@icevermin, you do realize that there are some LCME schools that do not have a University hospital connected to them, right?

I see your point with OMT though, if it truly worked, it would seem like gross negligence that our MD colleagues are withholding a treatment modality from their patients.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

I see your point with OMT though, if it truly worked, it would seem like gross negligence that our MD colleagues are withholding a treatment modality from their patients.

uhhh, not quite

physical therapy is prescribed by doctors and is considered a treatment modality

cant DOs even bill for OMT?

 

[hallowmann]

uhhh, not quite

physical therapy is prescribed by doctors and is considered a treatment modality

cant DOs even bill for OMT?

Yeah, I think it's less that it would be negligence for MDs not to teach it and more that they wouldn't really find it necessary as a skill set all physicians must be taught. PT and OMT may have some aspects that are very beneficial to patients, but they might not necessarily be skills every doc should have or must learn.

As a DO, it's nice to have a few techniques we could try out to solve a patient's pain issues, and in some fields (Ortho, PM&R, Sports) learning some parts of OPP, including MSK testing, exercise Rx and stretches are a part of standard care and competencies. That said, it would be hard to argue that (even assuming it was 100% effective) all of OPP would be required education for all medical students, as opposed to something they say learn in certain residencies.

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[GUH]

(I mean hell, UC Irvine split from the AOA because the AOA wasn't giving *any* support!), the AOA retreated at every step. Rather than adopt scientific rigor and follow the Flexner report recommendations, the DO world fought tooth and nail for 20 years before moving on and finally accepting the scientific norm! It's ridiculous.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The osteopathic medical school which eventually became UC Irvine was forced to convert by California state law, pushed by MD's and DO's who wanted to pretend that they were MD's.

OMM as a specialty does pay quite well and there is high demand for those who are good at it, by the way.

 

[costales]

I redacted my post as I was afraid of any professional repercussions, however my sentiments still stand. If OMT is as good as people say, then a few things should happen (or should have happened by now)

1. More DOs would use it in practice
2. MDs would want to learn it (some do, but not nearly enough)
3. OMT billables would skyrocket and suddenly NMM would be a hot field.

Over the history of Osteopathic medicine, none of that happened.

And very few LCME accredited institutions don't have affiliated teaching hospitals. On the other hand, COCA is opening up DO schools left and right, some with even dubious "ideologies" if you catch what I'm saying.

COCA, compared to LCME, is nothing more than a sick, money hungry institution. The student-faculty ratio is insane at any DO school, school support at a DO school compared to an MD school is not even comparable. I feel like I'm in undergrad all over again. What do we get? The "We're different" mentality. The "they think they are better than us, we are underdogs!" mentality. Historically even, its a shame. Rather than compete head to head (I mean hell, UC Irvine split from the AOA because the AOA wasn't giving *any* support!), the AOA retreated at every step. Rather than adopt scientific rigor and follow the Flexner report recommendations, the DO world fought tooth and nail for 20 years before moving on and finally accepting the scientific norm! It's ridiculous.

In fact, I'm all in favor of auditing all DO schools to ensure that they are meeting medical education standards. We're going to be physicians, not pill pushers. There are NPs and PAs for that job. Its sickening. It disgusts me. The standards of education *must* be higher.

You sound pretty disgruntled.

 

[AlteredScale]

You sound pretty disgruntled.

I'm more or less bothered that despite all these disgruntled folk I have not seen a call to action to ask COCA to reevaluate standards or simply just hear the student voice regarding these issues.

 

[GUH]

I'm more or less bothered that despite all these disgruntled folk I have not seen a call to action to ask COCA to reevaluate standards or simply just hear the student voice regarding these issues.

Honestly, as an osteopathic medical student I do not trust my fellow students to speak to any organization on my behalf, precisely because of students like icevermin, who clearly want to distance themselves from the profession.
My representatives failed to represent my concerns when they voted for the single accreditation and they would fail to represent my concerns when it comes to reforming osteopathic medical schools.

Should COCA keep an eye towards strengthening undergraduate osteopathic medical education? Definitely. Should they do it by listening to students who likely don't even want to be DO's? Nope.

 

[AlteredScale]

Honestly, as an osteopathic medical student I do not trust my fellow students to speak to any organization on my behalf, precisely because of students like icevermin, who clearly want to distance themselves from the profession.
My representatives failed to represent my concerns when they voted for the single accreditation and they would fail to represent my concerns when it comes to reforming osteopathic medical schools.

Should COCA keep an eye towards strengthening undergraduate osteopathic medical education? Definitely. Should they do it by listening to students who likely don't even want to be DO's? Nope.

That's a good point of view. So how do you propose reform be brought about then?

 

[GUH]

That's a good point of view. So how do you propose reform be brought about then?

Good question. I'm admittedly not an expert on this topic. I strongly suspect that there are established DOs active within the AOA or AACOM or some chapters who have a mind towards keeping osteopathic medical education strong or even improving on it because they are proud to be DO's and want to do everything possible to advance the profession rather than trying to shut it down or gradually fold it into another profession. My hope is that these are the ones who end up directing future policy initiatives. That would start by researching what our current strengths and weaknesses are by using measurable outcomes (not merely copying other professions because that's the way they do it), then considering reforms based on which policies are demonstrated by their research to best improve osteopathic medical education and its outcomes.

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[GUH]

It sounds like you're in favor of being one of Still's "Lesion Osteopaths" with very limited scope of practice bud. Here are some quotes from Gevitz's book.

“Finally, with respect to clinical facilities, it [California School] was the first and only school to utilize a large municipal hospital for bedside and outpatient teaching.”

With respect to the hospital the California DOs ran

“hose numbers appeared to demonstrate year after year that the mortality rates and length of patient stay (every tenth patient was admitted to the osteopathic unit) were consistently better than the much larger Unit #1 next door, run by the MDs”

You'll just have to read the book. These same DOs charged the AOA for not doing enough to bolster the profession. They had NO support from the AOA which (continuing the tradition) held all other schools of Osteopathic Medicine to lower standards than California DOs held themselves. They wanted better facilities, the AOA was doing nothing to help them.

I suggest rather than tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you at least do yourself the favor and read Gevitz's book. There is good to Osteopathic medicine, but continuing to believe in 13th century concepts like "distinctiveness" is not one of them.

I have read The DOs. There is nothing in it to indicate that lack of AOA support was the reason the California School switched to an allopathic institution. I would ask you to point out the line in the book where it mentions that but it simply isn't there; you're making things up completely. And 13th century? You might want to rethink that one.

EDIT:

By May 1961 a contract between the CMA and COA was ready to be acted upon...Among the major provisions of the contract were, first, that the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, which would change its name to the California College of Medicine, would... henceforth be a medical school affiliated with the Association of American Medical Colleges and end its teaching of osteopathy.

Note that this was after literally years of negotiations between the CMA and the COA to switch the school over and end osteopathic medicine in California, whereas the COA's charter had only been revoked in November of 1960.

 

[GUH]

that's almost *EXACTLY* how the AOA got into its position now. They obviously loosened standards, by a lot. If you're not for them tightening the ship and getting their **** together to benefit you and your future patients, then I'm just not sure what you think

If you are aware of any studies which actually compare patient outcomes based on whether a physician underwent his undergraduate medical education at a DO-granting institution, and find that our training is significantly inferior in terms of those patient outcomes, then let me know. I am not aware of any. If it is inferior, then there should be actual data with actual outcomes to focus in on what the shortcomings are before just going in and making major changes just because some people feel that they are somehow different.

 

[user3]

I redacted my post as I was afraid of any professional repercussions, however my sentiments still stand. If OMT is as good as people say, then a few things should happen (or should have happened by now)

1. More DOs would use it in practice
2. MDs would want to learn it (some do, but not nearly enough)
3. OMT billables would skyrocket and suddenly NMM would be a hot field.

Over the history of Osteopathic medicine, none of that happened.

And very few LCME accredited institutions don't have affiliated teaching hospitals. On the other hand, COCA is opening up DO schools left and right, some with even dubious "ideologies" if you catch what I'm saying.

COCA, compared to LCME, is nothing more than a sick, money hungry institution. The student-faculty ratio is insane at any DO school, school support at a DO school compared to an MD school is not even comparable. I feel like I'm in undergrad all over again. What do we get? The "We're different" mentality. The "they think they are better than us, we are underdogs!" mentality. Historically even, its a shame. Rather than compete head to head (I mean hell, UC Irvine split from the AOA because the AOA wasn't giving *any* support!), the AOA retreated at every step. Rather than adopt scientific rigor and follow the Flexner report recommendations, the DO world fought tooth and nail for 20 years before moving on and finally accepting the scientific norm! It's ridiculous.

In fact, I'm all in favor of auditing all DO schools to ensure that they are meeting medical education standards. We're going to be physicians, not pill pushers. There are NPs and PAs for that job. Its sickening. It disgusts me. The standards of education *must* be higher.

to play devil's advocate: what do you say to the people who point to all of the successful DO grads-- that scored highly on boards, matched into and were competent upon entering competitive residencies, performed well in them, etc-- despite lower faculty:student ratios, lack of clinical departments, preceptor-based rotations, lack of research opportunities, and other such criteria?

Yea, COCA's requirements relating to these are more lax compared to LCME. But to those that point to the huge cost of implenting LCME-like requirements, when DO schools already produce successful, competent physicians (and "cost-effectively", at that), what is your response?

 

[hallowmann]

Honestly guys, take a step back and relax.

The CMA and COA are the ones that wanted to end osteopathic medicine and streamline everything so that only the MD degree existed. I'm sure they all had good intentions, but it was really about the COA feeling as though they were not treated well because of their DOness and they figured by converting to MDs this issue would resolve. It had nothing to do with the AOA's attitude.

The COA tried to convince the AOA that it was a good idea, because part of the implication in the negotiations between the CMA and COA was that all DOs would prefer to be MDs, and so a domino effect would happen. It didn't happen. On top of that, many CA DOs (I believe it was ~15%) didn't transition, and even with MDs the former-DOs weren't exactly treated like MDs, so it became a whole federal case.

I'm a fan of dumping on the AOA as much as the next DO student (hey, it's "The Man", right?), but if I were being fair, the progress that the profession has achieved since CA has been incredible. The AMA recognized DOs as physicians, and no longer charlatans, and had accepted us as members and leaders in the profession, DOs are in ACGME residencies all over the country, including some of the most competitive fields, the US DO degree has been recognized as a full and equivalent medical degree in >60 countries, DOs make up >1/5 (soon to be 1/4) of all US medical graduates, MD schools (including Harvard - yeah, I used that talking point) all over the country are actually hosting CMEs in OMT and are even teaching it, COCA has created standards that require hosting of OGME by schools so that their grads have training to fall back on, COCA has also made stricter rules on the DO grad GME placement rates and Level 3 pass rates, and most recently the AOA and AACOM have become member organizations of the ACGME with >28% of the voting seats, the ACGME has added a residency committee made up of DOs to run NMM/OMM specialization as well as a committee for "Osteopathic focus" certification of residencies, and soon, MDs will be completing DO requirements in order to apply to formerly AOA residencies.

Now don't get me wrong, there's still plenty wrong with the AOA, COCA, and the way DO schools work, mainly when we are talking about clinical education in 3rd and 4th year, but to suggest that the AOA has basically been keeping us in the dark ages and hasn't benefited the profession since UCI was a DO school is a little ridiculous.

Sure, some OMT doesn't make any sense, but it's not like it's the majority, and heck even some DO schools refrain from teaching cranial except for boards. Sure, OMT needs to be evaluated the same way all aspects of EBM are, but if anything we're closer to that happening now than we have ever been as a profession.

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[hallowmann]

...Now, there are DO schools opening up that don't even allow girls in a men's auditorium. That's kind of ridiculous...

Wait, what? Where is this? Is this real??

 

[GUH]

Wait, what? Where is this? Is this real??

vermin used the plural "schools", no less.

 

[costales]

Let me clarify my point. When the COA relied on the national AOA to push for better facilities for them, either nationally or in CA, the AOA sat on their hands.

When the ACGME went around opening up University based medical institutions, the AOA didn't. Who is to blame here? There are still hospitals to this day that were once affiliated with DO schools but now have an associated MD school, hell some of these (*ahem* Northshore) don't even accept DOs anymore for residencies.

If you look at DOs on a whole, just like MDs, there are some that are bad and some that are great. If you take the average of the two obviously you will find that, on average, the clinical outcomes are similar. However, that doesn't say that having smaller classes with more student-centered learning (vs an auditorium filled with 250 students.. I mean really), dedicated clinical faculty, true University-based hospital affiliations will be a bad thing.

Now, there are DO schools opening up that don't even allow girls in a men's auditorium. That's kind of ridiculous. What right do they have. Mandatory classes, for all classes. Are we really in high school where attendance will determine whether somebody passes or fails?

Do you know how many med students are at Indiana U or U of Illinois? Look them up.

Keep making up stuff if it makes you feel less miserable.

 

[NurWollen]

Wait, what? Where is this? Is this real??

I'm guessing he meant LUCOM, and was probably talking about dorms or apartments, not auditoriums.

 

[cbrons]

because they are proud to be DO's and want to do everything possible to advance the profession rather than trying to shut it down or gradually fold it into another profession.

Why dont DO students just be proud of medicine in general? As in the profession MDs also practice. "Osteopathic" medicine - what is so different about it than the medicine MDs practice? The danger is fragmentation of a profession that really needs more political power and unity as we keep losing policy battles vs fake doctor lobbies (DNP, Chiro, Naturopathic frauds, etc.)

 

[cbrons]

Wow! I did not know it was that bad... Is there anyway we (DO students and physicians) can prevent that? The day that we have (Everest/ITT Tech/University of Phoenix) COM will be the death of the DO degree... I don't think COCA will go that low.

Starting DNP programs is very very cheap. I suspect with the very low standards of COCA there will be a DeVry School of Osteopathic Medicine soon, since it seems the AOA/COCA is following that DNP model of build a lot for very cheap. Sure hope they are stopped, because itll probably eventually relegate the DO to a second-class medical degree (undoing decades of strides by prior generations).

 

[meliora27]

There are some in power who seem to be hellbent on maintaining the difference. I've never seen an MD student referred to as an AMS (allopathic medical student) but I always see AOA/AACOM using the OMS designation.

 

[cbrons]

Do you know how many med students are at Indiana U or U of Illinois? Look them up.

Keep making up stuff if it makes you feel less miserable.

U of I is basically 4 separate semi-autonomous med schools with their own hospitals and faculty and regional deans. They are tied together by budgets and each have to undergo separate accreditation surveys by LCME.

 

[seminoma]

Think in terms of the future. about a dozen or more new MD colleges are about to open and it would become a legislative nightmare to kick out DOs and Caribbean graduates. The merger is the easiest way to solve this crunch, which affects everyone. That doesn't mean in the future they wouldn't take the next steps, but it's a smart play to address it now without having to spend money legislatively.

Where are these "dozen or so" MD schools?

 

[hallowmann]

I'm guessing he meant LUCOM, and was probably talking about dorms or apartments, not auditoriums.

Haha, dorms are very different than auditoriums.

Starting DNP programs is very very cheap. I suspect with the very low standards of COCA there will be a DeVry School of Osteopathic Medicine soon, since it seems the AOA/COCA is following that DNP model of build a lot for very cheap. Sure hope they are stopped, because itll probably eventually relegate the DO to a second-class medical degree (undoing decades of strides by prior generations).

That's a little over the top. Sure, not many of us love the ideals of a school like LUCOM, but it's not like you can open up a COM in your backyard. You still need $50 million, a demonstration of support from the region, hospital commitments for clinicals, an explanation for the need of the school, a Dean, and an affiliated OPTI, on top of things like the curriculum, etc. Sure its easier/cheaper than starting a new LCME accredited school, but it's not like you can make an online COM for example (compared to DNP programs).

Where are these "dozen or so" MD schools?

There have been a few new MD schools that have opened up in the last few years (3 new MD schools opened in 2011 and 5 new MD schools opened in 2012), and if you look at the LCME link below, the bottom of the page lists the proposed new MD schools. 9 are on the list.

http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm#pre-accredited-programs

That said, he was likely referring to the list of 13 or so developing MD schools on Wikipedia, but that includes schools that are very early in the process and ones that have been postponed.

 

[GUH]

Why dont DO students just be proud of medicine in general? As in the profession MDs also practice. "Osteopathic" medicine - what is so different about it than the medicine MDs practice? The danger is fragmentation of a profession that really needs more political power and unity as we keep losing policy battles vs fake doctor lobbies (DNP, Chiro, Naturopathic frauds, etc.)

DOs have existed for well over a century, in spite of the efforts of a certain organization which sought to have osteopathic medicine eliminated. Saying that the continued existence of osteopathic medicine somehow puts medicine in danger of "fragmentation" is not reasonable. If anything, "allopathic" medicine has been much slower to consider us equals. I can't name a single DO I've met who assumes that MDs are less intelligent but I have met and worked with multiple MDs who categorically consider DOs to be inferior physicians. So you can't just blame DOs for the lack of unity.

 

[cbrons]

DOs have existed for well over a century, in spite of the efforts of a certain organization which sought to have osteopathic medicine eliminated. Saying that the continued existence of osteopathic medicine somehow puts medicine in danger of "fragmentation" is not reasonable. If anything, "allopathic" medicine has been much slower to consider us equals. I can't name a single DO I've met who assumes that MDs are less intelligent but I have met and worked with multiple MDs who categorically consider DOs to be inferior physicians. So you can't just blame DOs for the lack of unity.

Probably because you try to remain "separate"; since there are 2 legitimate medical degrees out there it is only natural people will make up their minds about which is more prestigious. Not only is what I said reasonable, it is self-apparent.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Why dont DO students just be proud of medicine in general? As in the profession MDs also practice. "Osteopathic" medicine - what is so different about it than the medicine MDs practice? The danger is fragmentation of a profession that really needs more political power and unity as we keep losing policy battles vs fake doctor lobbies (DNP, Chiro, Naturopathic frauds, etc.)

Probably because you try to remain "separate"; since there are 2 legitimate medical degrees out there it is only natural people will make up their minds about which is more prestigious. Not only is what I said reasonable, it is self-apparent.

It's not just the medicine that's important, but the history.

While the cartel known as the AMA was shutting down "subpar" medical schools after Flexner, buying up an important DO one halting our expansion West (see UCI), artificially deflating the supply of docs by predicting huge physician surpluses (JAMA 1994) when everyone else predicted shortages, lobbying to ban midwifes from 36 states, and recently MD organizations trying to ban all DO internship trained physicians from partaking in MD fellowships at least until the IOM stepped in and told them to stop the madness, the DO side was actively establishing a foothold, reversing laws, lobbying for equal opportunities, and more recently, opening schools.

I have my issues with the AOA and COCA (cranial, LUCOM, etc.), but at least we aren't historically a monopoly buying up the good, casting the "other" as quackery, keeping supply low or even decreasing class sizes while demand gets ever higher, and trying to ban the other of the "2 legitimate medical degrees" from doing fellowship. I'd never judge a random person with an MD based on this, nor would I hope they'd judge me on my degree's history with cranial, though I'm sure this happens both ways, but it's going to be a long time before I'd trust the MD organizations with unfragmented power just as I'd hope others wouldn't trust DO organizations showing OMM's miraculous properties (see any article ever in JAOA) . And if this fragmentation causes midlevel expansion, so be it. We got into this mess due to artificial deflation, and I fail to see how joining together and continuing this deflation makes things better. If there's a study showing midlevels < physicians, or I feel their scope of practice is getting dangerously large, I'll be happy to individually lobby against it and maybe both MD and DO organizations can work on it together as 2 historically unique professional organizations should, without the preamble of merging our powers into one supercartel

 

[user3]

Let me clarify my point. When the COA relied on the national AOA to push for better facilities for them, either nationally or in CA, the AOA sat on their hands.

When the ACGME went around opening up University based medical institutions, the AOA didn't. Who is to blame here? There are still hospitals to this day that were once affiliated with DO schools but now have an associated MD school, hell some of these (*ahem* Northshore) don't even accept DOs anymore for residencies.

If you look at DOs on a whole, just like MDs, there are some that are bad and some that are great. If you take the average of the two obviously you will find that, on average, the clinical outcomes are similar. However, that doesn't say that having smaller classes with more student-centered learning (vs an auditorium filled with 250 students.. I mean really), dedicated clinical faculty, true University-based hospital affiliations will be a bad thing.

Now, there are DO schools opening up that don't even allow girls in a men's auditorium. That's kind of ridiculous. What right do they have. Mandatory classes, for all classes. Are we really in high school where attendance will determine whether somebody passes or fails?

you didn't respond to my question, which hallowman, guh, and alteredscale were probably also curious to hear your answer to...

 

[Dharma]

This thread is still here?

 

[cbrons]

If there's a study showing midlevels < physicians, or I feel their scope of practice is getting dangerously large, I'll be happy to individually lobby against it and maybe both MD and DO organizations can work on it together as 2 historically unique professional organizations should, without the preamble of merging our powers into one supercartel

If there's a study?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

DOs have existed for well over a century, in spite of the efforts of a certain organization which sought to have osteopathic medicine eliminated. Saying that the continued existence of osteopathic medicine somehow puts medicine in danger of "fragmentation" is not reasonable. If anything, "allopathic" medicine has been much slower to consider us equals. I can't name a single DO I've met who assumes that MDs are less intelligent but I have met and worked with multiple MDs who categorically consider DOs to be inferior physicians. So you can't just blame DOs for the lack of unity.

Considering I go to your school, I could name specific faculty and students that believe MDs are inferior to DOs, so you're full of ****.

 

[CrocodilePancake]

To get back on topic, I am an OMS I who recently attended a GME accreditation talk at my school hosted by our dean (AOA board of directors member) and a member of the recently appointed ACGME Osteopathic Principles Committee.

It was stated that this is not a "merger" but rather two existing entities (AOA and ACGME) coexisting under one umbrella organization (ACGME). Still sounds like a merger to me, but it seems like the AOA is desperately trying to maintain their existence and influence under the ACGME.

For current students, COMLEX is not going away any time soon. While not stated in the discussion, it is under my interpretation that it is imperative that incoming osteopathic med students take BOTH the USMLE and COMLEX. Not taking the USMLE will close doors for you for potential residencies. As of now there is no discussion if there will be a USMLE + OMM section in the future, which I am personally all for.

For those graduating and considering AOA residencies from now until 2020, make sure the programs you interview for are planning to transition to ACGME accreditation. It was stated that some programs will need additional funding in order to meet ACGME requirements, and some will choose not to transition due to costs/lack of resources. Those that do not transition will either close or will continue to exist but NOT be graduating licensed physicians.

It is apparent that the AOA wants to maintain the inherent differences between DO's and MD's, due to osteopathic medicine's "treating the whole person" and "osteopathic principles" however distinct they may be.

As stated by Gevitz, only the extreme minority of DO's practice OMM regularly on their patients (The DOs), and it is well known that about half of osteopathic graduates enter ACGME residencies before the merger.

In my opinion, there seems to be some extreme disconnect between the AOA and the reality that in practice DO's are indistinguishable from MD's.

I think only time will tell to see if the LCME takes over COCA. If this were to happen I would like to see that instead of DO's there will be MDO's or OMD's. Colleges of osteopathic medicine will be renamed "osteopathic college of medicine" because to me the word "osteopathic" pertains to a more philosophical term than the actual use of OMT. There will be another situation similar to California in the 60's.

Regardless, it is an exciting time to be an OMS!

 

[user3]

To get back on topic, I am an OMS I who recently attended a GME accreditation talk at my school hosted by our dean (AOA board of directors member) and a member of the recently appointed ACGME Osteopathic Principles Committee.

It was stated that this is not a "merger" but rather two existing entities (AOA and ACGME) coexisting under one umbrella organization (ACGME). Still sounds like a merger to me, but it seems like the AOA is desperately trying to maintain their existence and influence under the ACGME.

For current students, COMLEX is not going away any time soon. While not stated in the discussion, it is under my interpretation that it is imperative that incoming osteopathic med students take BOTH the USMLE and COMLEX. Not taking the USMLE will close doors for you for potential residencies. As of now there is no discussion if there will be a USMLE + OMM section in the future, which I am personally all for.

For those graduating and considering AOA residencies from now until 2020, make sure the programs you interview for are planning to transition to ACGME accreditation. It was stated that some programs will need additional funding in order to meet ACGME requirements, and some will choose not to transition due to costs/lack of resources. Those that do not transition will either close or will continue to exist but NOT be graduating licensed physicians.

It is apparent that the AOA wants to maintain the inherent differences between DO's and MD's, due to osteopathic medicine's "treating the whole person" and "osteopathic principles" however distinct they may be.

As stated by Gevitz, only the extreme minority of DO's practice OMM regularly on their patients (The DOs), and it is well known that about half of osteopathic graduates enter ACGME residencies before the merger.

In my opinion, there seems to be some extreme disconnect between the AOA and the reality that in practice DO's are indistinguishable from MD's.

I think only time will tell to see if the LCME takes over COCA. If this were to happen I would like to see that instead of DO's there will be MDO's or OMD's. Colleges of osteopathic medicine will be renamed "osteopathic college of medicine" because to me the word "osteopathic" pertains to a more philosophical term than the actual use of OMT. There will be another situation similar to California in the 60's.

Regardless, it is an exciting time to be an OMS!

If we graduate in 2018, the soonest we could complete an AOA residency would be 2021, AFTER the deadline to meet full accreditation. Is it safe to assume that by 2018, the programs choosing not to transition will NOT be matching new students?

 

[hallowmann]

If we graduate in 2018, the soonest we could complete an AOA residency would be 2021, AFTER the deadline to meet full accreditation. Is it safe to assume that by 2018, the programs choosing not to transition will NOT be matching new students?

I honestly don't think that's a safe assumption to make. Aim for TRIs that have pre-accreditation status, other than that, who knows what will happen after 2020. I think it's probably safe to say that programs that have both in house ACGME and AOA residencies will likely not shut down, but rather expand, but again, this isn't guaranteed.

 

[NontradCA]

To get back on topic, I am an OMS I who recently attended a GME accreditation talk at my school hosted by our dean (AOA board of directors member) and a member of the recently appointed ACGME Osteopathic Principles Committee.

It was stated that this is not a "merger" but rather two existing entities (AOA and ACGME) coexisting under one umbrella organization (ACGME). Still sounds like a merger to me, but it seems like the AOA is desperately trying to maintain their existence and influence under the ACGME.

For current students, COMLEX is not going away any time soon. While not stated in the discussion, it is under my interpretation that it is imperative that incoming osteopathic med students take BOTH the USMLE and COMLEX. Not taking the USMLE will close doors for you for potential residencies. As of now there is no discussion if there will be a USMLE + OMM section in the future, which I am personally all for.

For those graduating and considering AOA residencies from now until 2020, make sure the programs you interview for are planning to transition to ACGME accreditation. It was stated that some programs will need additional funding in order to meet ACGME requirements, and some will choose not to transition due to costs/lack of resources. Those that do not transition will either close or will continue to exist but NOT be graduating licensed physicians.

It is apparent that the AOA wants to maintain the inherent differences between DO's and MD's, due to osteopathic medicine's "treating the whole person" and "osteopathic principles" however distinct they may be.

As stated by Gevitz, only the extreme minority of DO's practice OMM regularly on their patients (The DOs), and it is well known that about half of osteopathic graduates enter ACGME residencies before the merger.

In my opinion, there seems to be some extreme disconnect between the AOA and the reality that in practice DO's are indistinguishable from MD's.

I think only time will tell to see if the LCME takes over COCA. If this were to happen I would like to see that instead of DO's there will be MDO's or OMD's. Colleges of osteopathic medicine will be renamed "osteopathic college of medicine" because to me the word "osteopathic" pertains to a more philosophical term than the actual use of OMT. There will be another situation similar to California in the 60's.

Regardless, it is an exciting time to be an OMS!

Wrote this during review huh? Boom!

 

[67552931811]

Why would anyone want to change to MDO or OMD? Do people not realize how stupid that sounds/looks? Not to mention the further confusion it would cause patients who see the sea of degrees listed on every NP's jacket..

 

[NurWollen]

MDO or OMD doesn't mean 'MD' any more than do DMD, or DVM, or DPM.

 

[CrocodilePancake]

Why would anyone want to change to MDO or OMD? Do people not realize how stupid that sounds/looks? Not to mention the further confusion it would cause patients who see the sea of degrees listed on every NP's jacket..

MDO or OMD doesn't mean 'MD' any more than do DMD, or DVM, or DPM.

I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it is a possible outcome if LCME were to absorb COCA. Additionally the schools could remain granting the DO degree or all switch to the MD degree.

 

[AlteredScale]

I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it is a possible outcome if LCME were to absorb COCA. Additionally the schools could remain granting the DO degree or all switch to the MD degree.

5 years ago, the secretary on LCME made scathing comments regarding the AOA's position on the COCA standards and how they were "similar but different". (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20042807)

But am wondering how (or if) that perspective has changed in the slightest now...or if this GME merger has perhaps trickled down talks about LCME assimilating COCA to have the entire process unified. That would be something.

 

[icevermin]

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[icevermin]

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[GUH]

The "Us vs. Them" mentality MUST go.

It will go as soon as the MD's let it go. Unfortunately many still insist on their old ways and even though we have given up the exclusive osteopathic residencies, they continue to treat DOs as second-class physicians. It sounds like they, and some within the DO world (including the California Osteopathic Association back in the 1960's), wouldn't be satisfied until osteopathic medicine no longer exists as a separate profession, and the AMA/AAMC stands as the sole provider of medical education in this country.

We cannot turn into factories that produce people who push pills.

You mean MD schools?

I've heard of faculty at DO schools straight up TELLING their students to not shoot for Rads, Ophtho, Surgery, and instead gun for FM and IM (not even EM) because the other fields are just not DO friendly.

I'm not sure I understand your point. DOs are often discriminated against for certain ACGME residency spots, not given the same consideration as an MD with identical board scores and similar qualifications. How can you argue that the osteopathic profession is responsible for the "Us vs Them" mentality?

 

[GUH]

I like OMT. I think its super useful. I just don't think its fair for exclusively DOs to have.

I have met MDs who regularly use OMT. So OMT is not exclusive to osteopathic physicians.

 

[icevermin]

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