PhD/PsyD I love psych, but I want money..

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erg923 said:
isn't the median price of a home similar to what you described wanting in the areas you want to live close to 1 mill?

There are homes in Palo Alto for 1 million that look as big as our dog house.
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I considered a job out in Pal Alto, CA a couple yrs ago....the avg house sale: $2m+. It was a startup, so the financials were a bit different, but the cost of living....nuts.
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vashibashi said:
That sounds rather extravagant, to me extravagant isn't comfortable. But I see your point.
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In my city a $750K-$1M house buys you an easy commute, access to the best schools in the public school system, nice parks & recreation facilities, a robust security presence, and a statistical likelihood of better-than-average health and longevity for your kids. Oh, and a rather nice physical dwelling too. :) On paper it would be just wonderful to be part of that top 5%. But having worked with and clinically treated members of that stratum, I can't say it's a haven from stress - far from it.
 
MamaPhD said:
In my city a $750K-$1M house buys you an easy commute, access to the best schools in the public school system, nice parks & recreation facilities, a robust security presence, and a statistical likelihood of better-than-average health and longevity for your kids. Oh, and a rather nice physical dwelling too. :) On paper it would be just wonderful to be part of that top 5%. But having worked with and clinically treated members of that stratum, I can't say it's a haven from stress - far from it.
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soooo are you saying that what you described is owned by the top 5%? your wording lost me a bit
 
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MamaPhD said:
In my city a $750K-$1M house buys you an easy commute, access to the best schools in the public school system, nice parks & recreation facilities, a robust security presence, and a statistical likelihood of better-than-average health and longevity for your kids. Oh, and a rather nice physical dwelling too. :) On paper it would be just wonderful to be part of that top 5%. But having worked with and clinically treated members of that stratum, I can't say it's a haven from stress - far from it.
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My house is the shiznit, as far as I'm concerned. Less than 300k.

Kids go to St. "Nuns on the Run" though. Puts a dent in the pocketbook.
 
Here is a website that does a pretty good job blogging about the California real estate market. http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/ We bought a townhome there in 2001 for 200k, in 2008 it was worth about 500K, then it crashed down to about 280k, now back up to over 400k again. Currently, I live in a house that I paid 150k for that is twice the size and I get a yard and garage to boot.
 
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smalltownpsych said:
Here is a website that does a pretty good job blogging about the California real estate market. http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/ We bought a townhome there in 2001 for 200k, in 2008 it was worth about 500K, then it crashed down to about 280k, now back up to over 400k again. Currently, I live in a house that I paid 150k for that is twice the size and I get a yard and garage to boot.
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what a steal! good for you :)
it seems that living comfortably in CA is very possible with a psych salary..
 
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Jon Snow said:
If you are focused on income, why not law school, getting an MBA, or computer science (move to san fran or austin, join a startup)? Industrial engineering and electrical/computer engineering both pay well with no graduate school. And hell, sales is a long proven way to make lots of money. There are a lot more lucrative baseline options than psych.
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Sales is a gamble. I spent years in that game and have seen many more worn out and broke salesmen than wealthy salesmen. The most successful are the ones who are selling to the wannabe salesmen using lines like that. :)
 
A lot of this is frustrating for me to read. There are tons of bad ideas and misconceptions here which I cannot figure how to call out without insulting others or giving away services which cost me something to learn. Anyone past stats 101 should be able to understand the math behind salaries, budgeting, and investing. They should also be able to look up insurance fee schedules, percent productivity, and annual hours. Whether they choose to apply that skill set to finances in an analytic manner is a different choice.

For anyone that cares, Sdn user whitecoatinvestor is legit.

Keep in mind that the pro athlete may be rich, but the person signing his pay checks is wealthy.
 
Jon Snow said:
If you are focused on income, why not law school, getting an MBA, or computer science (move to san fran or austin, join a startup)? Industrial engineering and electrical/computer engineering both pay well with no graduate school. And hell, sales is a long proven way to make lots of money. There are a lot more lucrative baseline options than psych.
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I've read that law students (unless they graduated from top tier schools; Harvard) are among the top unemployed due to high saturation. Engineering isn't my thing, I can barely get by in the watered-down physics courses bio kids have to take, let alone the stuff they deal with. Sales is, like another user stated, a gamble. Besides, those paths aren't in my interests. Like I've stated before, I love psych, and the purpose of this thread is for me to figure out the most fruitful way to make a living off of that.
 
PSYDR said:
A lot of this is frustrating for me to read. There are tons of bad ideas and misconceptions here which I cannot figure how to call out without insulting others or giving away services which cost me something to learn. Anyone past stats 101 should be able to understand the math behind salaries, budgeting, and investing. They should also be able to look up insurance fee schedules, percent productivity, and annual hours. Whether they choose to apply that skill set to finances in an analytic manner is a different choice.

For anyone that cares, Sdn user whitecoatinvestor is legit.

Keep in mind that the pro athlete may be rich, but the person signing his pay checks is wealthy.
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Well, I haven't taken any stats courses yet haha. Would you mind if I messaged you so that nobody would feel offended in this thread? Also, whitecoatinvestor doesn't show up on SDN as a user, unless I'm doing something incorrectly while searching.
I honestly just need some legitimate guidance.
 
I'm in California and the housing market is absolutely insane. I think you can live comfortably on a psychologist salary if you work at the right place (even better if you have dual income), but you may have to settle for a condo instead of a house.

That being said, I think one of the biggest drawbacks to our field is the DELAY in getting a decent salary. I'm almost 30 and I'm not making even entry level pay yet since I'm still a post doc.
 
erg923 said:
Micheal Burry?
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No, the author is James Dahle. He is an emergency medicine physician. I'm not sure whether it's the same person on SDN or not.

The book is aimed at physicians and other high-earning health professionals but most of the advice applies well to psychologists too.
 
People can definitely live comfortable on a psychologist's salary. Of course, it helps if you are debt free, have more than one income stream, and can max out multiple retirement streams/investments. But, I am cynical of the ability of the average person to achieve this. The available data would seem to support my cynicism.
 
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@vashibashi Guidance: If you can't find MSN prereq, salary surveys, or read what people post to aide in your question, but can use the the same skills to find this specific SDN forum and ask questions... there's a work ethic problem.
 
PSYDR said:
@vashibashi Guidance: If you can't find MSN prereq, salary surveys, or read what people post to aide in your question, but can use the the same skills to find this specific SDN forum and ask questions... there's a work ethic problem.
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you're being vague so I can't even decide if you're being condescending or not. if you hadn't noticed, I made this thread for those very reasons. if you're not going to be of help, don't reply. I'm sure you felt lost and confused during this time as well in your career.
 
It's not an insult. Legitimately: the absolute best guidance I can give is to do things for yourself. You absolutely could have looked up a bunch of those things. You didn't. It's not hard to understand the how or why. But that kind of thinking will absolutely destroy financial and professional stuff. If you were going the PhD employee route, imagine feeling lost for your first salary negotiation. Okay, reasonable. Imagine half assing it and getting some stories from colleagues about their friends friend who was making 100k as your only tool for negotiations. Now imagine having spent 50hrs researching the ever living hell out of the irs, every salary survey out there, the property tax assessment for every local psychologist listed in the state directory including the hiring peope, their budget, their expectations, how much they can earn off you from insurance based on that productivity less overhead, etc... And since you spent the time to learn this, you have this memorized. Which scenario is going to have a better outcome?

But I also always show up prepared, read the provided information, and take the appropriate consideration when a professional is nice enough to help me for free. So what do I know?
 
PSYDR said:
It's not an insult. Legitimately: the absolute best guidance I can give is to do things for yourself. You absolutely could have looked up a bunch of those things. You didn't. It's not hard to understand the how or why. But that kind of thinking will absolutely destroy financial and professional stuff. If you were going the PhD employee route, imagine feeling lost for your first salary negotiation. Okay, reasonable. Imagine half assing it and getting some stories from colleagues about their friends friend who was making 100k as your only tool for negotiations. Now imagine having spent 50hrs researching the ever living hell out of the irs, every salary survey out there, the property tax assessment for every local psychologist listed in the state directory including the hiring peope, their budget, their expectations, how much they can earn off you from insurance based on that productivity less overhead, etc... And since you spent the time to learn this, you have this memorized. Which scenario is going to have a better outcome?

But I also always show up prepared, read the provided information, and take the appropriate consideration when a professional is nice enough to help me for free. So what do I know?
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I think you're under the assumption that this was the first place I went to when the thought of pursuing a psych career came to mind. It wasn't. I came here because I got too many variable answers online, and thought it best to seek guidance from actual psychologists in order to clear up any misunderstandings I might have had (clearly there were many). I'll admit I didn't research IRS data and the like, but I didn't know much about that to begin with. I'm not here lazily seeking answers, I've been researching and self-searching for at least a couple of weeks now.
 
I'm assuming nothing. I am making observations based upon online behavior. You asked for guidance, I offered advice based upon my experience and observations. You told me to not comment unless I was willing to help you. I found this not very nice but decided to clarify to again help. You then counter, because that's something that makes sense when someone is trying to help you, and imply that you did a ton of work before asking your original question which ignores my specific example and overall point.

Which brings me back to my original advice: until you do things for yourself any advice is pointless. There's a couple of stages before determination.
 
PSYDR said:
I'm assuming nothing. I am making observations based upon online behavior. You asked for guidance, I offered advice based upon my experience and observations. You told me to not comment unless I was willing to help you. I found this not very nice but decided to clarify to again help. You then counter, because that's something that makes sense when someone is trying to help you, and imply that you did a ton of work before asking your original question which ignores my specific example and overall point.

Which brings me back to my original advice: until you do things for yourself any advice is pointless. There's a couple of stages before determination.
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Respectfully, you've barely stated anything worthy of calling "help". The most you've done is tell me to do things on my own, and looking back to my replies, there's only a few things that I could've researched myself (like course load). The rest has been inquiries about personal experiences and opinions. Now tell me, where would I go for expert opinions online for a doctorate degree? SDN?
 
1) That's changing the question.

2) You specially asked about earning money in psychology. I happen to know something about that subject. I offered that learning how to make money first is a great idea. Then I waited and offered some very specific guidance. You find that unhelpful. That's fine but we're at an impasse.
 
Let me boil it down a little for you and you can make a decision for yourself. If you just want to get a degree, graduate, and walk into an employee position expect somewhere in the $60-90k for salary. Can you make more than $100k as a psychologist? Yes, a lot more.

Is Psydr or anyone else here who makes above a $100k going to give you a step by step playbook of how to do so? No, that requires some hustle (also known as business acumen and good instincts).

Just like a physician can give you an average salary range, but no one is going to tell you how to be a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon. Some of it you are going to have to gamble on and figure out on your own. If you want the guarantee, get into med school.
 
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Sanman said:
Let me boil it down a little for you and you can make a decision for yourself. If you just want to get a degree, graduate, and walk into an employee position expect somewhere in the $60-90k for salary. Can you make more than $100k as a psychologist? Yes, a lot more.

Is Psydr or anyone else here who makes above a $100k going to give you a step by step playbook of how to do so? No, that requires some hustle (also known as business acumen and good instincts).

Just like a physician can give you an average salary range, but no one is going to tell you how to be a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon. Some of it you are going to have to gamble on and figure out on your own. If you want the guarantee, get into med school.
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I got that, but I don't see how I was being too specific with my questions. Either way, thanks for of your guys' help.
 
Sanman said:
Is Psydr or anyone else here who makes above a $100k going to give you a step by step playbook of how to do so? No, that requires some hustle (also known as business acumen and good instincts).
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It's not that there is a playbook. There's a mindset. Most people talk about a salary of 100k as a goal here which they would be content after achieving. I can't even fathom stopping there and didn't. I also can't understand how people don't want to make their money work for them, and why they don't want to learn how to get passive income. But that's not a skill, it's a mindset. So I'm not joking or insulting when I point out that drive is going to be a much more significant factor than specific knowledge in earning money. I can tell you how to run a marathon. One foot in front of the other until you hit 26.219 miles. Advice like that doesn't tell you anything helpful because 99.99999% are not going to be able to do that or understand what's really involved. Instruction doesn't work in the pre contemplation and contemplation stages.
 
We are starting to go round and round on this a bit. In short, you can make over 100k as a psychologist, but a psychiatrist will usually make double. Which path to choose is not something we can provide much help with as we as psychologists all chose this path. I don't think any of us are poor and I for one am always trying to make more money, but we did not choose the path that pays the most to start with for various reasons. For me, it was about what I wanted to do as opposed to what pays the most, but I also didn't want to be an MA level provider and have less income portential either. My very first job as a licensed psychologist I hired MA level therapists to work for me and they obviously got paid quite a bit less, but even then they were still paid a living wage between 40 to 55k depending on experience.
 
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PSYDR said:
It's not that there is a playbook.
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I think that is one of the key points being missed by the OP. I keep getting the impression he is saying "Some people make over 100k, what are the steps for doing so" as though we can tell him what specialty to pick that will guarantee this happening when that's not really hot it works. From an academic side, all I can really say is "Study hot topics in areas with lots of funding of interest to big research institutions, be awesome at it, be willing to work wayyyy more than average and don't discount the role of luck" which clearly isn't helpful. Obviously passive income is another path. I don't think the typical person is capable, nor would they necessarily desire the lifestyle that goes along with getting there.
 
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Listen to psydr. What he says continually proves itself.

Be the best at what you do, work well with others, know how to hustle, and diversify. That's the best I can come up with for a playbook. Strategies vary by setting/relationship.
 
I guess he was trying to help, and I appreciate that. The condescending tone however rubbed me the wrong way. I've always been a bit too stubborn and proud for my own good. Anyway, I apologize for sounding like a brat.
 
It's a realistic goal. I got my degree 10 months ago so I'm currently doing a post-doc which pays about 50k but I already have a post-licensure job lined up that will pay a bit over 100k starting and has phenomenal benefits in an area with low cost of living. I constantly heard about how little psychologists make while I was in school, and if you compare it to psychiatrists or medical doctors then yeah, it's low, but compared to national averages psychology is still a very lucrative field.
 
PSYDR said:
It's not that there is a playbook. There's a mindset. Most people talk about a salary of 100k as a goal here which they would be content after achieving. I can't even fathom stopping there and didn't. I also can't understand how people don't want to make their money work for them, and why they don't want to learn how to get passive income. But that's not a skill, it's a mindset. So I'm not joking or insulting when I point out that drive is going to be a much more significant factor than specific knowledge in earning money. I can tell you how to run a marathon. One foot in front of the other until you hit 26.219 miles. Advice like that doesn't tell you anything helpful because 99.99999% are not going to be able to do that or understand what's really involved. Instruction doesn't work in the pre contemplation and contemplation stages.
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I can buy that as I also believe it is a mindset. The most successful people I know were good businesspeople and had the ability to thrive regardless of their chosen profession. As for passive income streams and crafting a sustainable lifestyle, I don't know why everyone is not more concerned about that. Ever since I starting earning a high income my focus has been to create a more sustainable lifestyle while working less.
 
vashibashi said:
I guess he was trying to help, and I appreciate that. The condescending tone however rubbed me the wrong way. I've always been a bit too stubborn and proud for my own good. Anyway, I apologize for sounding like a brat.
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I probably would have reacted in a similar way. I agree with the majority of what he/she said with the hindsight of my life experiences, but when I was an undergrad deciding to pursue psychology I approached things much more like the way you are. Chose a career based mostly on whether I liked the classes and whether I thought I would make enough money, didn't totally understand what I was getting in to, took things a step at a time and doubted myself at many points along the way. It all worked out. I also think this is a perfectly appropriate forum for your question. Salary data for psychology is not that easy to find online, you will see a lot of different sites offering a lot of discrepant data points and not always being super transparent about how they arrived at their numbers. I think I've only really gotten a clear sense of what to expect to make within the last couple of years. There is sometimes a level of snark on this forum that I don't fully understand.
 
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CWard12213 said:
I probably would have reacted in a similar way. I agree with the majority of what he/she said with the hindsight of my life experiences, but when I was an undergrad deciding to pursue psychology I approached things much more like the way you are. Chose a career based mostly on whether I liked the classes and whether I thought I would make enough money, didn't totally understand what I was getting in to, took things a step at a time and doubted myself at many points along the way. It all worked out. I also think this is a perfectly appropriate forum for your question. Salary data for psychology is not that easy to find online, you will see a lot of different sites offering a lot of discrepant data points and not always being super transparent about how they arrived at their numbers. I think I've only really gotten a clear sense of what to expect to make within the last couple of years. There is sometimes a level of snark on this forum that I don't fully understand.
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The online stats are confounded by a variety of factors. This is a major problem for our field as those stats are part of the negotiations process. It's easy to be snarky on an online website and to forget that there is a huge difference between someone in undergrad looking forward as opposed to a licensed practitioner looking back. I personally have made a lot of mistakes along the way and continue to struggle with making the best financial decisions. One thing that I am proud of is that I have consistently advocated for increased compensation for psychologists and that I have turned down positions that did not pay at least the median. I welcome someone who says that they want to make money because that is one reason I chose this field.

All through training I heard over and over "if you got into this field to make money, you are in the wrong field" by people who had never really spent that much time actually working for a living. I now make 5 times what I ever made as a loan officer, operations manager, account representative, forklift operator, etc. In some of those jobs I worked alongside people with BAs and even MAs. I also make a couple of multiples more than my sister who has her masters degree and teaches for a living. Those professors were dead wrong and I believe their mindset keeps us from advancing economically and otherwise as a field.

One guy that had it right was a community college adviser that I talked to when I started this path many years ago. I wasn't sure if the doctorate or masters was the way to go. He said that he had an MA in psychology and had been working for 20 years and was making 45K (starting was about 30K). Meanwhile, he said that his close friend had just obtained her license and obtained her very first position for 85k. Now that is simple math.
 
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smalltownpsych said:
Those professors were dead wrong and I believe their mindset keeps us from advancing economically and otherwise as a field.
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I agree with you. There is a mindset issue. When one of my lab mates was negotiating salary and startup as a new faculty, our mutual advisor offered something to the effect of, "You'll never get that much." Well, this person did get that much and has since gotten a raise, tenure, and started a successful side business. It would be great if more psychologists were prepared to say, "Go for it - and here is how to make your case."
 
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A few more thoughts re: salary.

One reason there is such a wide range being reported here and elsewhere, in addition to factors like geography and setting, is that "psychology" is a field, not a job. There are a tremendous number of things a psychologist can do and they are compensated very differently. Some skills are simply more financially valuable than others. On an hourly basis, individual psychotherapy is typically one of the least lucrative things a psychologist can do. If you want to be on the higher end of the earning spectrum within the field of psychology, here are some skills and specialties to think about honing:

Psychological assessment
Neuropsychological assessment
Industrial/organizational psychology
Forensic psychology
Group psychotherapy
Program development
Providing supervision
Education
Research

My job pays what it does because it combines almost all of these to some extent (except forensic). I'm sure others could add to this list.

Lastly, don't forget that you can always start your own business. Obviously there is more risk there, but virtually no upper limit on what you can earn. My previous employer started out as an individual private practice (i.e. just her) and within 10 years had over 40 employees and was making well over a million a year. She also works very, very hard.
 
It's good to hear some of you are of a similar mindset as me. I honestly don't understand why so many people automatically say "if you're in it for the money, go elsewhere". It's one thing to love your career, but why would you settle for such low incomes, knowing how hard it was to get to your current position? If you're a professional, you should be paid MUCH higher than 50K a year, or even 80K a year, especially in a field such as psych. The benefits this field provides society are so valuable. To me, if you're content with low wages and are passive about advocating for higher (and frankly fairer) compensation, you're the reason this field gets discredited, has (from my experience) such a negative stigma when compared to other health fields, and why it's necessary to jump through so many hoops in order to gain a decent salary. The median wages for many of the psych fields I've seen are criminal. This consensus of complacency is very upsetting and discouraging, especially for people my age who genuinely love psych. I still have much to think about, but now it doesn't seem worth the risk to build a career in psych..
 
vashibashi said:
It's good to hear some of you are of a similar mindset as me. I honestly don't understand why so many people automatically say "if you're in it for the money, go elsewhere". It's one thing to love your career, but why would you settle for such low incomes, knowing how hard it was to get to your current position? If you're a professional, you should be paid MUCH higher than 50K a year, or even 80K a year, especially in a field such as psych. The benefits this field provides society are so valuable. To me, if you're content with low wages and are passive about advocating for higher (and frankly fairer) compensation, you're the reason this field gets discredited, has (from my experience) such a negative stigma when compared to other health fields, and why it's necessary to jump through so many hoops in order to gain a decent salary. The median wages for many of the psych fields I've seen are criminal. This consensus of complacency is very upsetting and discouraging, especially for people my age who genuinely love psych. I still have much to think about, but now it doesn't seem worth the risk to build a career in psych..
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Well, this isn't the only reason. We have a proliferation of the AAA diploma mill type schools, churning out a multitude of poorly trained people who seem more than happy to take whatever job they can get. Why hire someone demanding 100k+ when you have 20 more people who seem more than happy to take 65k to do the same job. Supply and demand. We've done absolutely nothing as a field to hold the Argosy/Alliant/Albizu's accountable. Many of us are doing just fine with 6 figure incomes, but that comes with good financial sense, location choice to an extent, and knowing how and where our skills are marketable.

I think the comments of "if you're in it for the money, go elsewhere" are justified. In the sense that there are far easier and quicker ways to reach a 6 figure income without the time and effort of a doctorate. If that is your biggest factor in career choice, yeah, a PhD of almost any type is a waste. If, however, you enjoy it and are fulfilled by it, sure, go ahead.
 
Ah, my mistake. That's half the reason then. My issue with the "if you're in it for the money, go elsewhere" mentality is that it expresses defeat and complacency in regards to higher wages. Idk, I wish people were more adamant about this.
 
vashibashi said:
Ah, my mistake. That's half the reason then. My issue with the "if you're in it for the money, go elsewhere" mentality is that it expresses defeat and complacency in regards to higher wages. Idk, I wish people were more adamant about this.
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People taking on 6 figures+ worth of debt from a diploma mill don't tend to be the most financially savvy.
 
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What's the mindset behind that? Be in debt forever so you can make $60K a year? Am I missing something here..?
 
Meh, it's the average American. Average America doesn't view money as a real thing. Just look at average debt levels and retirement savings. Plus, diploma mills do a good job at selling their fantasies to certain groups and making sure people stay ignorant through the process.
 
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