Interview Offers to ACGME Programs

[epicccfail]

Many MD students I know are getting interviews less than 24 hours after applying. I wanted to know if any DO students out there have had any luck so soon

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[Melkor]

Yes

 

[koan]

Second that

 

[epicccfail]

congrats! Hope to have similar luck soon

 

[DopaDO]

My roomie is a DO as well and got an offer at MGH. He submitted yesterday.

 

[Mehd School]

My roomie is a DO as well and got an offer at MGH. He submitted yesterday.

In what field?

 

[DopaDO]

In what field?

Surgery.

 

[costales]

It really depends on the program.

 

[ilMaestro]

Surgery.

Was this for a categorical spot?

 

[DopaDO]

Was this for a categorical spot?

Yes. He's obviously a good applicant - Step1 around 240, great research, and even better letters. A lot of ppl on sdn don't know what they are talking about. Being a DO is of marginal consequence in many specialties (even many of the surgical subspecialties). The reason more DOs don't get invites like this is bc they aren't good applicants. Step 1 is a small part of the equation. Research and especially letters (they need to be strong and from people who matter, not a random community physician) are the difference maker in an application.

 

[ilMaestro]

Yes. He's obviously a good applicant - Step1 around 240, great research, and even better letters. A lot of ppl on sdn don't know what they are talking about. Being a DO is of marginal consequence in many specialties (even many of the surgical subspecialties). The reason more DOs don't get invites like this is bc they aren't good applicants. Step 1 is a small part of the equation. Research and especially letters (they need to be strong and from people who matter, not a random community physician) are the difference maker in an application.

That is very impressive. Good for them.

 

[AMEHigh]

Do people think that all programs offer interviews to MD students first?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Yes. He's obviously a good applicant - Step1 around 240, great research, and even better letters. A lot of ppl on sdn don't know what they are talking about. Being a DO is of marginal consequence in many specialties (even many of the surgical subspecialties). The reason more DOs don't get invites like this is bc they aren't good applicants. Step 1 is a small part of the equation. Research and especially letters (they need to be strong and from people who matter, not a random community physician) are the difference maker in an application.

There are plenty of statistics that show being a DO in surgical specialties is more than just a marginal consequence.

 

[DopaDO]

There are many people on this website that think different and it blows my mind. Look no farther than the IM thread on this forum. Some people are saying that its impossible to match top tier IM as a DO which is laughable.

 

[MedicineMike]

Yes. He's obviously a good applicant - Step1 around 240, great research, and even better letters. A lot of ppl on sdn don't know what they are talking about. Being a DO is of marginal consequence in many specialties (even many of the surgical subspecialties). The reason more DOs don't get invites like this is bc they aren't good applicants. Step 1 is a small part of the equation. Research and especially letters (they need to be strong and from people who matter, not a random community physician) are the difference maker in an application.

This. Though I'm only in the application process myself, my whole motto through the last 3.5yrs was to be an MD. If you want to compete with MDs for their spots, then be an MD (do what MD students do). Rotate at top hospitals in the country, prove your worth, get a letter. I've noticed a lot of DO students are timid and think they aren't as good as MD students so they don't rotate at large academic places. This couldn't be further from the truth. I haven't met one doctor that A) cared what school I was from, or B)didn't teach me because I was an outsider, or C) treated me differently in any way. Show up, dress well, act smart, don't be annoying, work hard, get letter from dept heads, win.

 

[bajastapler]

The reason more DOs don't get invites like this is bc they aren't good applicants. Step 1 is a small part of the equation. Research and especially letters (they need to be strong and from people who matter, not a random community physician) are the difference maker in an application.

this part times a million. Majority of my class did jack for their CV during ms1-ms2 summer. IMO, they've already shot themselves in the foot, but the funny thing is: they will be the first to deny this and the loudest to complain when it comes down to applying.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

My roomie is a DO as well and got an offer at MGH. He submitted yesterday.

I call BS. Flat out. I wouldn't believe this unless you sent me an email from Keith Lillemoe himself.

Every year since I applied, MGH general surgery has not sent out interview invitations until mid-late October (or even November some years). This is easily verifiable in the surgery sub-forum.

They actually usually send out an email stating explicitly that they won't be sending invites until XXX date.

And, I 100% guarantee, if they were sending invites - that gunners would be posting left and right in the surgery invite thread.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

This. Though I'm only in the application process myself, my whole motto through the last 3.5yrs was to be an MD. If you want to compete with MDs for their spots, then be an MD (do what MD students do). Rotate at top hospitals in the country, prove your worth, get a letter. I've noticed a lot of DO students are timid and think they aren't as good as MD students so they don't rotate at large academic places. This couldn't be further from the truth. I haven't met one doctor that A) cared what school I was from, or B)didn't teach me because I was an outsider, or C) treated me differently in any way. Show up, dress well, act smart, don't be annoying, work hard, get letter from dept heads, win.

But wouldn't be a waste to do your rotation at a place that is, most likely, not going to interview you? I"m asking this because, I keep reading and hearing that people usually rotate at programs where they think they will potentially match at.

 

[koan]

I call BS. Flat out. I wouldn't believe this unless you sent me an email from Keith Lillemoe himself. Every year since I applied, MGH general surgery has not sent out interview invitations until mid-late October (or even November some years). This is easily verifiable in the surgery sub-forum. They actually usually send out an email stating explicitly that they won't be sending invites until XXX date. And, I 100% guarantee, if they were sending invites - that gunners would be posting left and right in the surgery invite thread.

In the anesthesia forum, people have been reporting that MGH sent acknowledgement emails - not interview invitations - perhaps a source of confusion here?

 

[DopaDO]

I'm on an away, so I'm not currently with him. This is what he told me. Ill ask him and get back with you.

 

[MedicineMike]

But wouldn't be a waste to do your rotation at a place that is, most likely, not going to interview you? I"m asking this because, I keep reading and hearing that people usually rotate at programs where they think they will potentially match at.

How would it be a bad thing? If you are a program director and you open a DO kids app and he has 3 fantastic LORs from Department Chairs and program directors at large academic hospitals you won't just turn a blind eye. You will most likely be more impressed than the DO applicant who got 3 LORs from Joe Shmo from community hospital.

I see where you are getting at, though it is very specialty and program dependent. Some places require you to do an away at their program to consider you, some don't.

 

[AMEHigh]

How would it be a bad thing? If you are a program director and you open a DO kids app and he has 3 fantastic LORs from Department Chairs and program directors at large academic hospitals you won't just turn a blind eye. You will most likely be more impressed than the DO applicant who got 3 LORs from Joe Shmo from community hospital.

I see where you are getting at, though it is very specialty and program dependent. Some places require you to do an away at their program to consider you, some don't.

Everyone and their thought process is different.

I personally chose to do my electives at decent places that I knew might consider me for a residency interview and I have the potential of getting a letter.

I personally wouldn't rotate at a super competitive place that I have no chance of matching in just for the possibility of a letter. Getting a LOR isn't a guarantee depending on who you work with, what the call schedule is like, etc, so I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket of trying to get a letter from some place that I know I'm not going to possibly match at.

However, every student is different, every specialty operates differently, so I don't think there is one "correct" answer.

 

[MedicineMike]

Everyone and their thought process is different.

I personally chose to do my electives at decent places that I knew might consider me for a residency interview and I have the potential of getting a letter.

I personally wouldn't rotate at a super competitive place that I have no chance of matching in just for the possibility of a letter. Getting a LOR isn't a guarantee depending on who you work with, what the call schedule is like, etc, so I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket of trying to get a letter from some place that I know I'm not going to possibly match at.

However, every student is different, every specialty operates differently, so I don't think there is one "correct" answer.

I agree with this. I rotated at places where I'm capable of landing a spot and also at places out of my league.


MS4

 

[epicccfail]

I just asked because I was curious and wanted to see where I stood as an applicant. I did not get an interview this first week and it can be hard when others seems to be getting them (although I am truly happy for them, no hate here). Hopefully, people who get interviews the first week are a minority. I want that first interview to relieve some anxiety.

 

[user3]

Being a DO is of marginal consequence in many specialties (even many of the surgical subspecialties). .

then why in "DO-friendly" EM for example (per @sylvanthus ), will only 68% of programs will interview DO students?

 

[serimeri]

none for me but a lot of my friends are. I failed COMLEX PE humanistic portion, so I'm sure that's a big part of it. I did not fail written exams though. I applied IM for AOA and ACGME.

 

[Bean_Bunny]

Do people think that all programs offer interviews to MD students first?

Not necessarily. I began getting offers about 30 hrs after I submitted. I agree it is program dependent.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Yea I hate to break it to you people, but being a DO matters. Not sure what kind of fantasy land you live in, but here in the real world there are a lot of superiority complexes in medicine.

 

[hallowmann]

then why in "DO-friendly" EM for example (per @sylvanthus ), will only 68% of programs will interview DO students?

Didn't you see the new PD survey? It's 77% now ! Really it's probably somewhere between the two, but we only have 2 data points.

 

[TwinsFan]

I call BS. Flat out. I wouldn't believe this unless you sent me an email from Keith Lillemoe himself.

Every year since I applied, MGH general surgery has not sent out interview invitations until mid-late October (or even November some years). This is easily verifiable in the surgery sub-forum.

They actually usually send out an email stating explicitly that they won't be sending invites until XXX date.

And, I 100% guarantee, if they were sending invites - that gunners would be posting left and right in the surgery invite thread.

100% agree

The thing about places like MGH for gen surg is that a good step 1 and letters is a prerequisite to even be remotely considered for an interview. A 240 with good letters won't turn heads, it's standard. Let alone pedigree. Go to bigger ponds and look at some of the top students there, and many of them aren't expecting MGH for surgery. A good (not outstanding) surgery applicant around here will have ~240 (our school avg is within a point or two of this), letters from well known people in the surgical field, probably some research, and a name to back it up.

 

[readdoc]

This whole doing rotations thing -- I think it's created a f$#@*%! mess -- at my aways there have been too many student desperately wanting to be noticed -- all vying for too few spots. And everybody is flipping nuts cause we're told you have to do rotations in order to get interviews. It's crazy how everybody is tap dancing like crazy. I know rotations were set up for the programs to get a look at you and decide if you are a decent sort of person. But at this point maybe they need to change the rules. I proposed you do ONE rotation to prove you've been exposed to the field and know what you're getting into, and then they go back to selecting you from what's on paper, your LORs etc. This is nuts -- okay, I'm in a dark place today cause I've spent the day elbow to elbow with other students basically shadowing a PA instead of getting anywhere near an attending.

 

[W19]

I thought GS was very hard to get as a DO... There is a GS community program where I used to live that has not had a DO for the 5 years its existence. It has had some IMG though.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

There are plenty of statistics that show being a DO in surgical specialties is more than just a marginal consequence.

I was going to say this. Just look at the PD survey where most will not even entertain the idea of interviewing DO.

 

[DopaDO]

I was going to say this. Just look at the PD survey where most will not even entertain the idea of interviewing DO.

Correct me if I'm a wrong (and I may be), but doesnt the PD survey ask if this "program TYPICALLY interviews or ranks DOs"? There are many issues with that survey and it bothers me greatly how much it's quoted. The response rate is pretty poor, and if I'm correct about the above then the survey is essential worthless. I'm sure there are programs that don't typically interview or rank DOs bc DOs don't apply, they don't realize they are DOs, or the ones that apply aren't qualified.

With that said, there are some programs in every specialty with bias.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I was going to say this. Just look at the PD survey where most will not even entertain the idea of interviewing DO.

Correct me if I'm a wrong (and I may be), but doesnt the PD survey ask if this "program TYPICALLY interviews or ranks DOs"? There are many issues with that survey and it bothers me greatly how much it's quoted. The response rate is pretty poor, and if I'm correct about the above then the survey is essential worthless. I'm sure there are programs that don't typically interview or rank DOs bc DOs don't apply, they don't realize they are DOs, or the ones that apply aren't qualified.

With that said, there are some programs in every specialty with bias.

No, general surgery is among the most well-known "anti" DO fields. One famous chairman said in a meeting "D.O. equals N.O." It's intentional, not coincidental, that these programs don't have any DOs.

It's about right that 50% of programs won't even review their applications. Mine certainly doesn't. DO apps never get looked at. That is way more than marginal consequence. I'm not saying that's right, but it is what it is.

I note you never clarified whether your friend received an MGH interview. (they didn't)

 

[DopaDO]

No, general surgery is among the most well-known "anti" DO fields. One famous chairman said in a meeting "D.O. equals N.O." It's intentional, not coincidental, that these programs don't have any DOs.

It's about right that 50% of programs won't even review their applications. Mine certainly doesn't. DO apps never get looked at. That is way more than marginal consequence. I'm not saying that's right, but it is what it is.

I note you never clarified whether your friend received an MGH interview. (they didn't)

As much as it sucks to admit, you are correct. He lied to me - which was a crappy thing to do. I apologize for not coming here to own it sooner.

With that said, he has received 5 mid tier academic surgery program invites. The truth is probably somewhere between your extreme and mine.

 

[W19]

No, general surgery is among the most well-known "anti" DO fields. One famous chairman said in a meeting "D.O. equals N.O." It's intentional, not coincidental, that these programs don't have any DOs.

It's about right that 50% of programs won't even review their applications. Mine certainly doesn't. DO apps never get looked at. That is way more than marginal consequence. I'm not saying that's right, but it is what it is.

I note you never clarified whether your friend received an MGH interview. (they didn't)

Why your program does not even look at DO applications? Does your program look at US and non US IMG applications?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Why your program does not even look at DO applications? Does your program look at US and non US IMG applications?

No

Because the program leadership perceives them to be inferior.

My chairman would probably fire my PD if we matched a DO or carib grad.

 

[W19]

No

Because the program leadership perceives them to be inferior.

My chairman would probably fire my PD if we matched a DO or carib grad.

Wow! I guess only applicants from top US schools match into your program...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

The truth is probably somewhere between your extreme and mine.

I'm not being extreme. I'm telling you the truth about the challenges to matching into general surgery as a DO. It's a notoriously anti-DO field, worse in particular geographic regions, worse still at the upper tier programs.

My experience in this is backed by the survey data which you are choosing to dismiss.

Whether you accept this to be true or not is not really my problem. I just think it's a consistent problem on this site when DO students/applicants try to undermine the very real challenges they face and put on rose-colored glasses about everything. This is typified by you coming on her to crow that a DO applicant had gotten an MGH invite less than a day after submitting, and saying this was proof of the "marginal consequence" of a DO degree. The states that you cited are actually below average for MGH, even for a top MD grad.

I think it's important for applicants to have a realistic assessment of the competitiveness of the fields they are applying to.

 

[D4C]

I'm not being extreme. I'm telling you the truth about the challenges to matching into general surgery as a DO. It's a notoriously anti-DO field, worse in particular geographic regions, worse still at the upper tier programs.

My experience in this is backed by the survey data which you are choosing to dismiss.

Whether you accept this to be true or not is not really my problem. I just think it's a consistent problem on this site when DO students/applicants try to undermine the very real challenges they face and put on rose-colored glasses about everything. This is typified by you coming on her to crow that a DO applicant had gotten an MGH invite less than a day after submitting, and saying this was proof of the "marginal consequence" of a DO degree. The states that you cited are actually below average for MGH, even for a top MD grad.

I think it's important for applicants to have a realistic assessment of the competitiveness of the fields they are applying to.

I've always been curious as to why general surgery (and surgical specialties) are like this. What's your take on it?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I've always been curious as to why general surgery (and surgical specialties) are like this. What's your take on it?

I mostly think it's a combination of two things, among other contributors:

1) "Old school" mentality that has lingered longer in general surgery than many other fields

2) Because they can. General surgery residencies aren't plastics or derm, but the field is much smaller than many people realize - about a thousand spots per year. The match rate for US MD students is only about 80-85%. They haven't had to look to other options like DO/IMG to fill their slots.

 

[Dharma]

I've always been curious as to why general surgery (and surgical specialties) are like this. What's your take on it?

I'm more curious about why some folks love swimming through the osteopathic forums…

Please don't pee in the pool.

 

[WaylonS]

I'm more curious about why some folks love swimming through the osteopathic forums…

Please don't pee in the pool.

Yes, because DO students shouldn't be allowed to read/post in the allo forum

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm more curious about why some folks love swimming through the osteopathic forums…

Please don't pee in the pool.

I read through most threads about residency application, regardless of forum.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I mostly think it's a combination of two things, among other contributors:

1) "Old school" mentality that has lingered longer in general surgery than many other fields

2) Because they can. General surgery residencies aren't plastics or derm, but the field is much smaller than many people realize - about a thousand spots per year. The match rate for US MD students is only about 80-85%. They haven't had to look to other options like DO/IMG to fill their slots.

In all honesty, if one day you become a PD (I'm not sure if you are planning to work in academia), will you carry on this tradition of "D.O. = N.O." and taking IMG's over DO's? I want to get a sense of how things will become in the future.

 

[D4C]

In all honesty, if one day you become a PD (I'm not sure if you are planning to work in academia), will you carry on this tradition of "D.O. = N.O." and taking IMG's over DO's? I want to get a sense of how things will become in the future.

That's kind of a loaded question. He's just one individual, and if he indeed wouldn't be more receptive to a DO residency app in a surgery field, perhaps he would withhold that opinion to avoid some of the more prominent flamers on here. But I don't think he's that type of guy.

/endrant

 

[Postictal Raiden]

That's kind of a loaded question. He's just one individual, and if he indeed wouldn't be more receptive to a DO residency app in a surgery field, perhaps he would withhold that opinion to avoid some of the more prominent flamers on here. But I don't think he's that type of guy.

/endrant

You are right. My question was nothing but a knee jerk reaction to the stuff I'm reading on this thread.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's definitely a loaded question.

But a fair one since I posted here.

I think the short answer is - "I don't know"

There are a few reasons for this:

first is that I don't have enough experience or expertise at this stage. I know some PDs who express genuine concern about the quality of DO schools clinical rotations and the impact that has on their preparedness for internship (particularly a demanding surgery internship). I don't have enough exposure to have a personal opinion on this. The handful of DOs I've worked with as a resident (in other fields) have been great - but they must have been among the best students at their schools to have matched here in their respective fields.

Next - I f I become a PD - I would need to take a good look at my program and its culture. Despite their power over applicants, PDs have many bosses and often don't have the authority to make drastic decisions. At my program our chair has very clear expectations for what he wants our applicant pool (and ultimately intern class) to look like. I think any attempts to consider a DO applicant (here) would require an extraordinary applicant and a one on one convo with the chair prior to inviting.

But, finally. I think if I ever get into that position...I probably won't be able to help myself from at least looking. From curiosity sake if nothing else. I want to know and judge for myself what their applications look like and how they stack up to the competition. So I would, at least, look. What I do once I've done that would I guess depend on the applicants and what they have to offer.

 

[DopaDO]

I'm not being extreme. I'm telling you the truth about the challenges to matching into general surgery as a DO. It's a notoriously anti-DO field, worse in particular geographic regions, worse still at the upper tier programs.

My experience in this is backed by the survey data which you are choosing to dismiss.

Whether you accept this to be true or not is not really my problem. I just think it's a consistent problem on this site when DO students/applicants try to undermine the very real challenges they face and put on rose-colored glasses about everything. This is typified by you coming on her to crow that a DO applicant had gotten an MGH invite less than a day after submitting, and saying this was proof of the "marginal consequence" of a DO degree. The states that you cited are actually below average for MGH, even for a top MD grad.

I think it's important for applicants to have a realistic assessment of the competitiveness of the fields they are applying to.

The methodology of the survey seems to be extremely flawed. Low response rate + the question asked doesn't seem to be equal with the conclusion that has been drawn.

I do believe it is harder to match as a DO, but I think the bias is not as bad as you are making it out to be. My roommate has 4 general surgery invites + 1 integrated CT invite. I've seen these and I can vouch that he isn't lying this time. I know its of marginal consequence to you because its just my word, but thats really all I or you have at this point.

I do admit that of all the fields in medicine, general surgery (as well as ENT) seem to be the most DO unfriendly field. With that said, its still very possible to match a solid mid-tier program if you are a mid-tier applicant. I'll concede that is probably not true for ENT.

While I don't think your trying to be malicious and I appreciate the knowledge, your n=1 is not really that helpful. I'd also like to add that with the prospect of the merger + changing of the guard (older generation retiring) I think we will see less and less bias every year.