is it really worth it?

[qwerty86]

For the skeptics -

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/business/11decay.html

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[stdmufin27]

Ahh being new here and just beginning pre-dental school this thread some what scares me

Sorry to hear this. But it's good to know the reality of what you're getting into. Difficult schooling (I haven't started yet so don't freak out anyone) big debt, good (if you think an income well over 130k+ w/ a little experience isn't great) income, and most importantly a very comfortable lifestyle once you get your life/finances figured out after school. Don't be afraid to ask about anything on SDN though. Alot of people on here will freak out (especially if you ask about money as I stated previously) if you don't "do your homework" or ask people who don't really know. All crap if you ask me. This should be a place to ask about anything, including the obvious questions. Good luck and don't let the negative or ultra realistic members of the forum get you down

 

[La Dentista]

With the high costs of dental school these days (150-300K) and the grueling 4 years to get through it...is it really worth it? It seems like the norm for new grads is to make below six figs and to top it off they often get screwed when associating by the owner dentists, plus no benefits, stress of the job itself, working in such a small area, deep in someone's saliva/blood. Sure , people always say find a job you love doing etc etc. but after working a handful of jobs, some fun, others not so much, I don't think i will love any job. i love spending time with my family, friends, traveling etc. so for me, my job will be a means to support the things i love rather than be the reason for me to get up everyday. So.. I've come to the conclusion that pharmacy is the best healthcare profession to get into, investment wise(you put in little and receive much more in return). Cost of pharm schooling is much lower(especially if you go to to a state school), curriculum seems much more laid back, optional attendance, no lab work, so you have more time during school to live rather than be slaving away for 4 years with only ocassional weekends to live for., much less stress in the working world(less liability), cleaner profession, easy to find a job and travel and work in different regions, guaranteed high income, benefits, more variety... Am I alone in this belief? I don't mean to turn this into a pharm/dent bashing, just wanted to get others' views on this. thanx!

No offense, but you obviously haven't done enough research about the dental field compared to the pharm field if this is the idea floating around in your head.

Goodluck in pharm school.

 

[brandonbraud]

As a dentist you can make whatever you feel like making. You can work 3 days a week, you can go work for a prison for a set salary, you can join the military, work in someone else's practice, whatever. You can also bust your ass and work 6 days a week. I've been assisting my uncle, who has 3 of his own practices. We leave the house at 6:30 AM and get back at 9 30 PM. I doubt I will work this hard, and I doubt I will ever make what he makes. But tha'ts not why I want to be a dentist. I don't get the point of this thread, it seems cut and dry to me. Its not even about being a dentist or a pharmacist, you make as much money as you want to make. Bottom Line. If you want to have control of your own salary, don't be a pharmacist.

 

[dee783]

To begin, let me say that I think that both pharmacy and dentistry are great careers. It really boils down to the fact that you need to love your career or you'll never be completely happy (regardless of the salary, etc.). Now onto the post dissection:




Most pharm grads are are looking at over 100k in loans, personally I am looking at 120k



Well don't expect a cake walk if you manage to get into pharm school. Attendance is mandatory, I dunno where you got that from. The curriculum laid back? Not really, there are many intensive classes and 20+ credit hour semesters are not uncommon. There are mandatory lab courses every semester, so there are labs that must be completed weekly.

Wow I thought this thread was a lost cause after the first couple responses. I appreciate all the comments and agree with most of the points brought up. It's nice to get some replies from those on the pharm side as well . I do agree that pharm and dent are both good careers, but as a whole, I think that pharm is a better educational investment in terms of healthcare careers. Sure you're chances of making a massive amount of money is much higher in dentistry, but I don't think that'd change my quaility of life much. Afterall, after reaching a certain threshold, one can only spend so much. The greater autonomy is a big benefit as well, being able to control your schedule, life. although not all dentists have this.

In response to your statements about pharm school, and keep in mind that this is just my opinion through talking to friends/family who are in or have graduated from the pharmd prog and surely not all inclusive facts about all pharm progs. Anyway my my pharm friends who attended state institution have schools loans around 60k and that includes undegrad too! I know private schools cost more, but the possibility of attending a professional school with a guaranteed high income upon graduating with such little debt is incredible. As far as the curriculum being laid back, I say this because it seems mainly lectured based. My med and pharm school friends can choose to go to class or not and learn/memorize the material on their own and just show up for the exam. Dental school does include traditional lectures, but is also very heavily lab based. Though I someitmes what to bang my head against the wall memorizing minute details about pathways of some hormone or patterns of cardiac rhythms, I don't have trouble learning the lecture material. it's learning the technical skills in dentistry that is the bigger challenge. The only way to get better is to practice and make mistakes and that can be very frustrating!! And by long hours of lab work I don't mean the lab work during class time, I mean staying after for hours to work on lab work because the time alotted during class is never enough or because your work didn't turn out the first time, so you have to start over from scratch. I know that pharmacy school has some lab courses, but I didn't think you guys had very much, so it's nice to know this info. Like I said, I was never interested in p;harm in undegrad, I never got past the counting pills and standing in one spot idea of pharmacy. (similar to how many view dentistry as just pulling teeth). I do wish I would have been more open to it because it seems like a great field to get into and perhaps a better fit for me. I'm in my 2nd year of dental school already and have no plans on switching, but am interested in learning more about pharmacy. Who knows how I will feel about dentistry when I'm actually out practicing, but for now I like it enough to continue.

My goal in posting this thread was simply to discuss and get others' perspective on pharmacy/dentistry, not for others to tell me which field to go into. I know many (probably most) of my classmates are in dentistry for the lifestyle/income, not exclusivley, but it is a HUGE factor. Pharmacy, in my opinion offers similar, potentially better benefits in comparison with less risk and sacrifice. So did you/do you ever consider it? Yes they are very different fields, for most of us, a job is a job. I enjoy healthcare in general but my passion is doing things with family and friends, living life, not work. This does not mean that I will be a bad dentist or pharmacist. I love to learn and know how to work hard.

I agree that business and banking can be very financially rewarding but those fields are highly unstable. Few make it big, but for most healthcare careers, you jump through the hoops(school) and you're pretty much gauranteed work and a stable income.

To airwolf, I hope you continue posting on here. It's nice to get the perspective of the happy, unhappy and the in between. Not everyone is going to love dental school/practicing dentistry, and that's ok. Seems like anyone who says anything negative about dentistry on this forum gets attacked (especially by the pre-dents). I agree that dentistry can be a very rewarding career to get into, but it's not all rainbows and sunshine, and it isn't for everyone. and that's ok too.

 

[qwerty86]

My experience has been the opposite. Working at pharmacy for 3 years scared me away from the whole pharmacy field. Even the pharmacist I work with agrees about the fact that the pharmacy profession is going in the wrong direction. Rather than enjoying pharmacology, he spends time mulling about the patient pool, if they hit script budget, did they score high on customer service, bonus he will get based on # patients. They have to, because the corporates will keep on bugging you until they get what they want. There is more to corporate pharmacy than just pharmacology. It has basically turned into a business where they care more about profit than patients.

 

[FutureDMD1234]

Wow I thought this thread was a lost cause after the first couple responses. I appreciate all the comments and agree with most of the points brought up. It's nice to get some replies from those on the pharm side as well . I do agree that pharm and dent are both good careers, but as a whole, I think that pharm is a better educational investment in terms of healthcare careers. Sure you're chances of making a massive amount of money is much higher in dentistry, but I don't think that'd change my quaility of life much. Afterall, after reaching a certain threshold, one can only spend so much. The greater autonomy is a big benefit as well, being able to control your schedule, life. although not all dentists have this.

In response to your statements about pharm school, and keep in mind that this is just my opinion through talking to friends/family who are in or have graduated from the pharmd prog and surely not all inclusive facts about all pharm progs. Anyway my my pharm friends who attended state institution have schools loans around 60k and that includes undegrad too! I know private schools cost more, but the possibility of attending a professional school with a guaranteed high income upon graduating with such little debt is incredible. As far as the curriculum being laid back, I say this because it seems mainly lectured based. My med and pharm school friends can choose to go to class or not and learn/memorize the material on their own and just show up for the exam. Dental school does include traditional lectures, but is also very heavily lab based. Though I someitmes what to bang my head against the wall memorizing minute details about pathways of some hormone or patterns of cardiac rhythms, I don't have trouble learning the lecture material. it's learning the technical skills in dentistry that is the bigger challenge. The only way to get better is to practice and make mistakes and that can be very frustrating!! And by long hours of lab work I don't mean the lab work during class time, I mean staying after for hours to work on lab work because the time alotted during class is never enough or because your work didn't turn out the first time, so you have to start over from scratch. I know that pharmacy school has some lab courses, but I didn't think you guys had very much, so it's nice to know this info. Like I said, I was never interested in p;harm in undegrad, I never got past the counting pills and standing in one spot idea of pharmacy. (similar to how many view dentistry as just pulling teeth). I do wish I would have been more open to it because it seems like a great field to get into and perhaps a better fit for me. I'm in my 2nd year of dental school already and have no plans on switching, but am interested in learning more about pharmacy. Who knows how I will feel about dentistry when I'm actually out practicing, but for now I like it enough to continue.

My goal in posting this thread was simply to discuss and get others' perspective on pharmacy/dentistry, not for others to tell me which field to go into. I know many (probably most) of my classmates are in dentistry for the lifestyle/income, not exclusivley, but it is a HUGE factor. Pharmacy, in my opinion offers similar, potentially better benefits in comparison with less risk and sacrifice. So did you/do you ever consider it? Yes they are very different fields, for most of us, a job is a job. I enjoy healthcare in general but my passion is doing things with family and friends, living life, not work. This does not mean that I will be a bad dentist or pharmacist. I love to learn and know how to work hard.

I agree that business and banking can be very financially rewarding but those fields are highly unstable. Few make it big, but for most healthcare careers, you jump through the hoops(school) and you're pretty much gauranteed work and a stable income.

To airwolf, I hope you continue posting on here. It's nice to get the perspective of the happy, unhappy and the in between. Not everyone is going to love dental school/practicing dentistry, and that's ok. Seems like anyone who says anything negative about dentistry on this forum gets attacked (especially by the pre-dents). I agree that dentistry can be a very rewarding career to get into, but it's not all rainbows and sunshine, and it isn't for everyone. and that's ok too.

First, you need to shadow a pharmacist before you jump into pharmacy school. You need to know can you spend the rest of your life counting pills instead of worrying about student loans and salary. In dentistry, you are going to make your money. Obviously, you won't make alot first year out because of patients base and the employer. Pharmacy is not all cookies and creams. I volunteered in pharmacy once. To me it was boring. I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at pills. Sometime, pharmacists do more work than needed. For example, correcting crazy doctors' mistakes. If you want to work less and make more, own a business. There's a problem, you are scared to invest. Just because one pharmacist said that he/she make $200,000+ a year doesn't mean you will. That's the same with dentistry. Just because one dentist made a million dollar a year doesn't mean I will. I hope my advice is helpful and follow your dream.

 

[airwolfrocks999]

. You'll probably hate dentistry too so switch now while you can afford to.

There was a thread about this a couple months ago and I acknowledged how I wanted to do something else.

I want to do either programming or medicine. But medical schools don't seem to like my grades. ( even with a DDS ) And for computer science, I need to start undergrad all over again for a BS degree.

 

[airwolfrocks999]

And to piggyback this question...can you enlighten us on HOW the independent dentist enhances their skills? They have to be doing it somehow. True, I've heard that most CE is not really going to give everything you need, but you have to start somewhere. I also find it hard to believe ALL CE is as useless as you make it sound.

Take one of those maxi-courses in implantology and tell me how confident you are in trying them out in real people.

Whether it's crown lengthening, ortho, or implants, those CE courses are mostly didactic. For whatever forms of hands-on training available, they are very brief and are done on typodonts or pig jaws. Will you get to learn alot? Yes. But it takes a headstrong individual to feel confident on real patients after these types of CEs.

 

[pietrodds]

Take one of those maxi-courses in implantology and tell me how confident you are in trying them out in real people.

Whether it's crown lengthening, ortho, or implants, those CE courses are mostly didactic. For whatever forms of hands-on training available, they are very brief and are done on typodonts or pig jaws. Will you get to learn alot? Yes. But it takes a headstrong individual to feel confident on real patients after these types of CEs.

Dude, don't be such a debbie downer. There's so much opportunity to grow as a clinician and a person in dentistry. If you just see roadblocks instead of opportunities you'll hate it. Pick something else... sounds like you just want to live in a van down by the river!

Unless you graduated from a specialty program in the last 5 years you probably recieved little to no training on implants. Do you honestly think that specialists who didn't get advanced training in implants during their residency aren't doing implants. Hell no, they took some good CE after school and started doing em. If you think that you stop learning after you get out of school you just don't get it. I've been out 4 years and 90% of what I learned and do on a daily basis I learned AFTER dental school. If someone doesn't want to do dental school for whatever reason fine and I commend them for at least making a diffinative decision. But to sit back and make up lame excuses about how you can't really learn and do anything after D school is pathetic and completely false.

 

[KOM]

If you think that you stop learning after you get out of school you just don't get it. I've been out 4 years and 90% of what I learned and do on a daily basis I learned AFTER dental school.

Both my grandfather and father have said the same thing so what the hell am I here for.

I think dental school basically breaks you down, and builds you up so you can be a proficient life long learner. In that respect, I try not to dismiss its importance.

 

[Aceofspades]

Ok, enough about reducing a pharmacist's job duties to "counting pills." I wonder why so many people here do that? Are dentists jealous of pharmacists? Is it scorn or envy? Or is it some type of an inferiority complex? In any case, the pharmacy technician is not gunning for the pharmacist's job like the advanced dental hygienists are gunning for the dentist's job. Why do dentists have to be such nutcases. Enough already.

Edit:
Oh, and at least pharmacists don't go around killing themselves off in droves...

 

[dackmonkey]

Ok, enough about reducing a pharmacist's job duties to "counting pills." I wonder why so many people here do that? Are dentists jealous of pharmacists? Is it scorn or envy? Or is it some type of an inferiority complex? In any case, the pharmacy technician is not gunning for the pharmacist's job like the advanced dental hygienists are gunning for the dentist's job. Why do dentists have to be such nutcases. Enough already.

Edit:
Oh, and at least pharmacists don't go around killing themselves off in droves...

killing themselves off in droves? are you really that gullible?

 

[RxWildcat]

Well, this thread officially has turned to crap.

 

[JamieMac]

Ok, enough about reducing a pharmacist's job duties to "counting pills." I wonder why so many people here do that? Are dentists jealous of pharmacists? Is it scorn or envy? Or is it some type of an inferiority complex? In any case, the pharmacy technician is not gunning for the pharmacist's job like the advanced dental hygienists are gunning for the dentist's job. Why do dentists have to be such nutcases. Enough already.

Edit:
Oh, and at least pharmacists don't go around killing themselves off in droves...

Honestly, I think it more a result of ignorance than envy. When I consider the responsibility and duties of a pharmacist...the first thing that comes to mind is drug interaction and dispensing prescriptions. I'm sure there is more to it than that, but I believe I would find the the profession to be terribly boring. No offense intended to those going into pharmacy.

Some may find the prospect of working in the mouth all day long to be boring too, but there are so many procedures that a GP can do (and choose not to do), that they can have a tremendous amount of variety and flexibility in their schedule. I'm the type of person who receives satisfaction from 'fixing' things, and believe that pharmacy would not provide me with that sense.

Oh, and you might want to check your edit comment...there are a few good publications floating around that put the 'suicide' myth into perspective.

 

[pmantz]

After reading this thread I am sincerely having regrets about choosing a career that offers autonomy. I would much rather have a board of executives decide how I practice my profession. Dammit!!!!!

 

[Aceofspades]

killing themselves off in droves? are you really that gullible?

No, I do not truly believe that dentists are killing themselves off in droves, but I added that line to show you a misconception that many people have about dentists. Sort of like the misconception many people have about those pill counting pharmacists isn't it? My point is respect other professions and people will respect yours. Don't propagate ignorance and lies about other professions and perhaps the ignorance and suicide myths about your profession will cease to be propagated.

 

[Quattro DMD]

I know the whole point of the original post was to compare the investment/return of pharmacy school vs. dental school, but after reading all of the posts I noticed that no one really made any mention about going into one of these healthcare professions to HELP PEOPLE! I know the education investment for both is great and you need to be concerned about the financial return so you can pay off you loans, but stop being so greedy! I remember when I went on my dental interviews one of the other applicants made reference to the large about of money that her cousin earns as an orthodontist, and I swear I saw dollar signs in her eyes....it made me sick. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to be successful and make a comfortable living, but going to a healthcare profession solely for the money is wrong (I'm not implying that the majority of the posters feel this, but I got the impression that a few do)

 

[armorshell]

I know the whole point of the original post was to compare the investment/return of pharmacy school vs. dental school, but after reading all of the posts I noticed that no one really made any mention about going into one of these healthcare professions to HELP PEOPLE! I know the education investment for both is great and you need to be concerned about the financial return so you can pay off you loans, but stop being so greedy! I remember when I went on my dental interviews one of the other applicants made reference to the large about of money that her cousin earns as an orthodontist, and I swear I saw dollar signs in her eyes....it made me sick. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to be successful and make a comfortable living, but going to a healthcare profession solely for the money is wrong (I'm not implying that the majority of the posters feel this, but I got the impression that a few do)

It's a thread about money. You can't expect (and don't want) people dragging things that are blatantly off-topic into every single thread. I'm also sure if you checked the AADSAS personal statement of everyone in this thread, you will see the words "help people" in there, verbatim, probably about 50 times.

 

[airwolfrocks999]

after reading all of the posts I noticed that no one really made any mention about going into one of these healthcare professions to HELP PEOPLE!

Pure BS. Health professionals are generally in it for their own personal gain and because of social interaction. It's not necessarily because they want to help people.

And per se, it isn't just dentists and pharmacists that are helping people. Engineers, plumbers, scientists, delivery men, etc. are all working to contribute to the society and provide services for a better lifestyle.

So really, don't ever say that you're a dentist or pharmacist because you want to help people. Again, that's pure BS because lots of health pros aren't generally nice people and everyone ( with a normal job ) is technically helping humanity by what they do for a living.

For those who are strongheaded enough to say they want to help people, why don't you move to an underserved, inner-city area and work at their local public clinic? I dare you.

And then tell me honestly if you would continue dealing with mentally-difficult and psychotic people who take your services for granted and think you're a sh**ty dentist because you aren't giving them what they want. ( in the way they unreasonably expect ) I mean, I can't think of any sane person who intentionally wants to deal with these people while being underpaid.

 

[JamieMac]

I know the whole point of the original post was to compare the investment/return of pharmacy school vs. dental school, but after reading all of the posts I noticed that no one really made any mention about going into one of these healthcare professions to HELP PEOPLE! I know the education investment for both is great and you need to be concerned about the financial return so you can pay off you loans, but stop being so greedy! I remember when I went on my dental interviews one of the other applicants made reference to the large about of money that her cousin earns as an orthodontist, and I swear I saw dollar signs in her eyes....it made me sick. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to be successful and make a comfortable living, but going to a healthcare profession solely for the money is wrong (I'm not implying that the majority of the posters feel this, but I got the impression that a few do)

I'd like to believe that we all want to "help people", but if that is the main reason you're going into dentistry (or medicine), you're going into the wrong profession. You can have a much larger impact on people's lives doing other things. Unless, of course, you plan to finish school and go into impoverished areas and practice for free (I don't think a lot of these types are out there...or can afford to). There are so many people who go into fields of medicine for a variety of reasons...not just one.

Personally, I'm tired of people being judgemental of those who wish to earn a comfortable living after investing $200,K+ for tuition, and 4 difficult years in academia. Many of us have a real concern regarding the amount of debt incurred, and the ability to pay that debt off after the fact. So I'm supposed to be ashamed of this? Apparently I've committed a cardinal sin by expecting to make a decent living after investing all of the time and money? Give me a break. The instant that someone mentions earning potential here, they are crucified. Sometimes I think that people are living in an alternate reality.

 

[JamieMac]

Pure BS. Health professionals are generally in it for their own personal gain and because of social interaction. It's not necessarily because they want to help people.

And per se, it isn't just dentists and pharmacists that are helping people. Engineers, plumbers, scientists, delivery men, etc. are all working to contribute to the society and provide services for a better lifestyle.

So really, don't ever say that you're a dentist or pharmacist because you want to help people. Again, that's pure BS because lots of health pros aren't generally nice people and everyone ( with a normal job ) is technically helping humanity by what they do for a living.

For those who are strongheaded enough to say they want to help people, why don't you move to an underserved, inner-city area and work at their local public clinic? I dare you.

And then tell me honestly if you would continue dealing with mentally-difficult and psychotic people who take your services for granted and think you're a sh**ty dentist because you aren't giving them what they want. ( in the way they unreasonably expect ) I mean, I can't think of any sane person who intentionally wants to deal with these people while being underpaid.

This is probably the first time we've ever agreed on something...good (and very real) post.

 

[aphistis]

Pure BS. Health professionals are generally in it for their own personal gain and because of social interaction. It's not necessarily because they want to help people.

And per se, it isn't just dentists and pharmacists that are helping people. Engineers, plumbers, scientists, delivery men, etc. are all working to contribute to the society and provide services for a better lifestyle.

So really, don't ever say that you're a dentist or pharmacist because you want to help people. Again, that's pure BS because lots of health pros aren't generally nice people and everyone ( with a normal job ) is technically helping humanity by what they do for a living.

For those who are strongheaded enough to say they want to help people, why don't you move to an underserved, inner-city area and work at their local public clinic? I dare you.

And then tell me honestly if you would continue dealing with mentally-difficult and psychotic people who take your services for granted and think you're a sh**ty dentist because you aren't giving them what they want. ( in the way they unreasonably expect ) I mean, I can't think of any sane person who intentionally wants to deal with these people while being underpaid.

I'm doing two years of residency at my VA and county hospitals. Those are exactly the patients I deal with. I'm certainly underpaid relative to what I'd be earning in private practice. I'm quite sane, and I love dentistry. Helping people is a large part of what drew me to the profession. Got a problem with it?

What's your fairy tale to explain me away? Do you seriously think every other dentist alive shares your complete lack of imagination, ambition, and altruism? Your problems with dentistry have much more to do with your problems than they do with anything related to dentistry.

 

[pietrodds]

seriously dude, you got some major pent up hostility. If you don't want to be a dentist, that's ok. Just not sure why you have to come onto a site for people that actually are interested in being a dentist and bash the whole profession? Based on your accounts the only people that aren't helping others are criminals in jail.... wait, they commit crimes to provide jobs to security guards, politicians, etc.

 

[JamieMac]

I'm doing two years of residency at my VA and county hospitals. Those are exactly the patients I deal with. I'm certainly underpaid relative to what I'd be earning in private practice. I'm quite sane, and I love dentistry. Helping people is a large part of what drew me to the profession. Got a problem with it?

I don't think anyone really has a problem with it. Your VA experience provides you with a way to help people, earn a modest salary, AND an opportunity to learn and hone your your skills. There is no need to twist this into something that it isn't. I would have a hard time believing that helping people is the ONLY reason you chose this residency. From what I've been told, many (maybe not you) choose VA residencies primarily for the exposure to various procedures. Are you saying this had nothing to do with your choice?

 

[airwolfrocks999]

I'm doing two years of residency at my VA and county hospitals. Those are exactly the patients I deal with. I'm certainly underpaid relative to what I'd be earning in private practice. I'm quite sane, and I love dentistry. Helping people is a large part of what drew me to the profession. Got a problem with it?

Hold it, pal.

The indignant population is generally treated at school or postgraduate-based clinics. Essentially, these people are coming over to dental schools and residency programs because they can't afford usual fees. I guess you could say that 3rd/4th yr dental students and residents are helping people, but they wouldn't have a choice otherwise because they are required to. And something doesn't sound right for someone to go into a residency because they want to help people. ( or, ahem, gain more technical practice or fulfill licensure reqs ) But I won't nag you on it because maybe it is true.

But did you say VA? From my understanding, you're treating US veterans whose almost ideal treatment is practically funded 100% by the govt.

I'm sure that we need people to treat US veterans but why aren't you doing a gpr/aegd at community health centers? Since they're Medicaid-based or destitute, you won't be doing ( or, ahem, practicing/learning as in a VA program ) molar endos, fixed/implant pros, and surgical perio. But many of them haven't seen dentists in 5-10 yrs, have psychosocial problems ( like one of the many that yell at me because they think I'm a lousy dentist for making them RPDs. One even threw a CD at me. There's another who knocked a syringe off my hand before it was used), and really need some caring docs like you to understand their superior entitlement.

If you truly loved and wanted to help people ( and wanted to show it via doing a residency ), I don't think a VA program would be near a top choice. You could have done better than a VA for helping others.

 

[airwolfrocks999]

seriously dude, you got some major pent up hostility. If you don't want to be a dentist, that's ok. Just not sure why you have to come onto a site for people that actually are interested in being a dentist and bash the whole profession? Based on your accounts the only people that aren't helping others are criminals in jail.... wait, they commit crimes to provide jobs to security guards, politicians, etc.

The tone of forum messages always sounds hostile and demeaning. It's not the way I would have meant them.

I'm not bashing dentistry. I'm just telling the little ones that "helping" others is pretty overrated and no dentist/pharmacist truly wants to "help" people. What they probably meant was, I want a well-paying and respected job where I get to work with people and help them as a byproduct.

FYI, I don't condone criminals. Yes, they provide jobs for the police and public attorneys. But the actual/potential harm they cause to society doesn't justify anything.

 

[aphistis]

Hold it, pal.

The indignant population is generally treated at school or postgraduate-based clinics.

The indignant population?

Essentially, these people are coming over to dental schools and residency programs because they can't afford usual fees. I guess you could say that 3rd/4th yr dental students and residents are helping people, but they wouldn't have a choice otherwise because they are required to.

They are required to--as part of their training to become dentists. If someone doesn't want to commit that time, it's as easy as choosing any career from the thousands whose training and education are shorter and less demanding than dentistry.

And something doesn't sound right for someone to go into a residency because they want to help people. ( or, ahem, gain more technical practice or fulfill licensure reqs ) But I won't nag you on it because maybe it is true.

Because wanting to be a better dentist is...bad...?

But did you say VA? From my understanding, you're treating US veterans whose almost ideal treatment is practically funded 100% by the govt.

Your understanding is wrong. Again. Some veterans are candidates for ideal care, yes, but many are not. Either way, the VA's eligibility regulations are immaterial here.

I'm sure that we need people to treat US veterans but why aren't you doing a gpr/aegd at community health centers? Since they're Medicaid-based or destitute, you won't be doing ( or, ahem, practicing/learning as in a VA program ) molar endos, fixed/implant pros, and surgical perio. But many of them haven't seen dentists in 5-10 yrs, have psychosocial problems ( like one of the many that yell at me because they think I'm a lousy dentist for making them RPDs. One even threw a CD at me. There's another who knocked a syringe off my hand before it was used), and really need some caring docs like you to understand their superior entitlement.

1) Because there are no community health center GPR's where I live.
2) Are you seriously suggesting there's a shortage of psychosocial comorbidities in a VA hospital's patient population compared to any other demographic in America?
3) Because I'm a veteran myself, and helping other veterans is personally important to me.
4) Remind me again why it's such a contemptible crime to spend time training to become a better dentist? You still haven't explained that.

If you truly loved and wanted to help people ( and wanted to show it via doing a residency ), I don't think a VA program would be near a top choice. You could have done better than a VA for helping others.

Frankly, sir, I don't give a rip what you think. As you've shown on multiple occasions, your opinion is severely underinformed and demonstrates a frightening lack of perspective. It's pretty apparent that your only goal is projecting your misery onto as many other dentists and dental students as possible, and you're not going to find any customers here. This is my final word to you on this subject.

 

[Quattro DMD]

Ok, so I apologize for going "off topic" a bit. I just feel that going into a healthcare profession primarily for the money is the wrong reason. Its just my opinion. I'm not reaming anyone for wanting to make 200K+....I mean if you went through all that schooling and you accrued a great deal of debt you need to be compensated to get yourself out of the red.

I'm not bashing dentistry. I'm just telling the little ones that "helping" others is pretty overrated and no dentist/pharmacist truly wants to "help" people. What they probably meant was, I want a well-paying and respected job where I get to work with people and help them as a byproduct.

And I know I'm just a "little" pre-dent, but I would seriously like to know at what point you became such an unhappy and jaded individual. Maybe I haven't been exposed to the dark underbelly of dentistry like you have, but as for your statement that "no dentist truly wants to help people".....that's BS. For example, I volunteer at a dental clinic for the homeless in PHX. The dentist that founded it did private practice for a few years and then closed his office. A few years later he became a caseworker at a homeless shelter, and then eventually opened this state-of-the-art dental clinic for the homeless population. http://www.cassdentalclinic.org/

 

[aphistis]

I don't think anyone really has a problem with it. Your VA experience provides you with a way to help people, earn a modest salary, AND an opportunity to learn and hone your your skills. There is no need to twist this into something that it isn't. I would have a hard time believing that helping people is the ONLY reason you chose this residency. From what I've been told, many (maybe not you) choose VA residencies primarily for the exposure to various procedures. Are you saying this had nothing to do with your choice?

Sorry, bud, no sale.

Airwolf originally said any dentist was a quack if they wouldn't willingly volunteer to be underpaid and spend their time treating rotten, unappreciative patients. Now that you've discovered that's exactly what I did, you're trying to move the goalposts to impugn my motivation for it--in other words, now that he's been called out by someone who's done exactly what he said nobody ever does, you're trying to argue that the only reason I must be doing it is to somehow satisfy my selfish urges. That's called begging the question, and it's fatal to your argument here.

 

[stdmufin27]

Sorry, bud, no sale.

Airwolf originally said any dentist was a quack if they wouldn't willingly volunteer to be underpaid and spend their time treating rotten, unappreciative patients. Now that you've discovered that's exactly what I did, you're trying to move the goalposts to impugn my motivation for it--in other words, now that he's been called out by someone who's done exactly what he said nobody ever does, you're trying to argue that the only reason I must be doing it is to somehow satisfy my selfish urges. That's called begging the question, and it's fatal to your argument here.

Dude, you really need to slow down on the over usage of those big-boy words. I mean "impugn"? I follow what you're saying and all, and I'm on your side with this debate you got going, but your logic is obviously falling on non-english/debate forum posters. You rock though dude w/ the VA residency. I come from a military family and anyone who feels the need to knock one who is doing their residency in a VA hospital obviously knows nothing about the need for those facilities.

BTW, It sure would be nice if AirWolf would stop playing his damn violin loud enough for all of us to hear.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR SOB STORY.
You don't like dentistry now, so go to another forum.

 

[KOM]

Dude, you really need to slow down on the over usage of those big-boy words. I mean "impugn"? I follow what you're saying and all, and I'm on your side with this debate you got going, but your logic is obviously falling on non-english/debate forum posters.

Yeah, dumb the language down for everyone. Then, they can all argue with you for every trivial detail you say to get an ego boost since you were misinterpreted and all because you weren't using a nice English vocab to begin with.

As far as the recent debate goes - Yes, there are some people out there that are altruistic. If your own life is so shallow that you can't wrap your mind around that concept then just move along.

 

[aphistis]

Dude, you really need to slow down on the over usage of those big-boy words. I mean "impugn"? I follow what you're saying and all, and I'm on your side with this debate you got going, but your logic is obviously falling on non-english/debate forum posters. You rock though dude w/ the VA residency. I come from a military family and anyone who feels the need to knock one who is doing their residency in a VA hospital obviously knows nothing about the need for those facilities.

BTW, It sure would be nice if AirWolf would stop playing his damn violin loud enough for all of us to hear.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR SOB STORY.
You don't like dentistry now, so go to another forum.

Are you trying to impugn my writing style? Kidding. Sometimes I lean a little heavily on the Scrabble words, but I don't spend a lot of time editing SDN posts before submitting them. And, thanks for the thoughts on the VA. They're not for everyone, but VA hospitals do a lot of good for a lot of people, and I'm glad I've gotten to spend a year at one.

 

[KOM]

Anybody else addicted to crossword puzzles? I think sometimes it's the only thing that helps me crawl out of bed in the morning.

 

[JamieMac]

Sorry, bud, no sale.

Airwolf originally said any dentist was a quack if they wouldn't willingly volunteer to be underpaid and spend their time treating rotten, unappreciative patients. Now that you've discovered that's exactly what I did, you're trying to move the goalposts to impugn my motivation for it--in other words, now that he's been called out by someone who's done exactly what he said nobody ever does, you're trying to argue that the only reason I must be doing it is to somehow satisfy my selfish urges. That's called begging the question, and it's fatal to your argument here.

First of all, please spare me the condescending commentary...for someone who is supposed to be a 'moderator', you're acting like a angry child with an overextended vocabulary. You need to drop the facetious tone, let the air out of your chest a little, and get rid of the inflated lat syndrome. Next, don't put words in my mouth...I did NOT say that the only reason you were doing it was to satisfy your selfish urges. What I did imply (rather directly) was that I believe your motivation was not only to help others. If this is the case, you are truly a rarity (and maybe even a little foolish) and more power to you. Perhaps you should go back and read my post...calling me out for something you think I was saying is total BS. The only thing that is “fatal” about my argument is that you managed to misconstrue my point.

On another note…Should you really be proud of the type of behavior you exhibit in the forums? It appears that when a fellow SDN’r disagrees with you, you attempt to overwhelm the poster by conjuring up the most defensive response possible while making full use of a thesaurus. Do I sense a little insecurity here?…perhaps. Just keep it real, and try to act the part a little better.

 

[FutureDMD1234]

There was a thread about this a couple months ago and I acknowledged how I wanted to do something else.

I want to do either programming or medicine. But medical schools don't seem to like my grades. ( even with a DDS ) And for computer science, I need to start undergrad all over again for a BS degree.

In my opinion, medicine is worse than dentistry. If you don't like being a dentist, how are you going to like medicine? All that whining about all that work you are doing as a dentist for $60,000 a year. This is nothing compared to a medical resident working 60 or more hours and make $40,000 a year. I would rather become a nurse than a physician. If you think it's better to become a physician. Good for you.

 

[aphistis]

First of all, please spare me the condescending commentary...for someone who is supposed to be a 'moderator', you're acting like a angry child with an overextended vocabulary. You need to drop the facetious tone, let the air out of your chest a little, and get rid of the inflated lat syndrome. Next, don't put words in my mouth...I did NOT say that the only reason you were doing it was to satisfy your selfish urges. What I did imply (rather directly) was that I believe your motivation was not only to help others. If this is the case, you are truly a rarity (and maybe even a little foolish) and more power to you. Perhaps you should go back and read my post...calling me out for something you think I was saying is total BS. The only thing that is “fatal” about my argument is that you managed to misconstrue my point.

On another note…Should you really be proud of the type of behavior you exhibit in the forums? It appears that when a fellow SDN’r disagrees with you, you attempt to overwhelm the poster by conjuring up the most defensive response possible while making full use of a thesaurus. Do I sense a little insecurity here?…perhaps. Just keep it real, and try to act the part a little better.

First off, if I mischaracterized your argument, I apologize.

I think Airwolf is spreading a great deal of misinformation about dentistry as a profession, and it's important that his flawed scare tactics be called out for what they are. To that end, yes, I'm coming down on his arguments pretty hard--not out of insecurity, but instead out of a desire to rebut what I consider to be an inaccurate and misleading perspective of my profession. Take care.

 

[Sama951]

Are you trying to impugn my writing style?

Dictionary.com says:

1.to challenge as false (another's statements, motives, etc.); cast doubt upon. 2.Archaic. to assail (a person) by words or arguments; vilify. 3.Obsolete. to attack (a person) physically.

But now I demand you tell me (phonetically) how to pronounce it!

 

[aphistis]

Dictionary.com says:

1.to challenge as false (another's statements, motives, etc.); cast doubt upon. 2.Archaic. to assail (a person) by words or arguments; vilify. 3.Obsolete. to attack (a person) physically.

But now I demand you tell me (phonetically) how to pronounce it!

im-pyün.

 

[Sama951]

thanks, love you.

 

[JamieMac]

First off, if I mischaracterized your argument, I apologize.

I think Airwolf is spreading a great deal of misinformation about dentistry as a profession, and it's important that his flawed scare tactics be called out for what they are. To that end, yes, I'm coming down on his arguments pretty hard--not out of insecurity, but instead out of a desire to rebut what I consider to be an inaccurate and misleading perspective of my profession. Take care.

Fair enough, apology accepted. I can assure you I did not intend to offend with my comments. If I did, I also extend an apology.

As far as Airwolf...I couldn't agree with you more. It is painfully obvious that he/she dislikes the profession and often presents questionable arguments. Hopefully I am wrong, but I have a feeling he/she would not be happy in any career.

Good luck.

 

[NismoDDS]

aw what a happy ending

 

[ucla2134]

Wow I thought this thread was a lost cause after the first couple responses. I appreciate all the comments and agree with most of the points brought up. It's nice to get some replies from those on the pharm side as well . I do agree that pharm and dent are both good careers, but as a whole, I think that pharm is a better educational investment in terms of healthcare careers. Sure you're chances of making a massive amount of money is much higher in dentistry, but I don't think that'd change my quaility of life much. Afterall, after reaching a certain threshold, one can only spend so much. The greater autonomy is a big benefit as well, being able to control your schedule, life. although not all dentists have this.

In response to your statements about pharm school, and keep in mind that this is just my opinion through talking to friends/family who are in or have graduated from the pharmd prog and surely not all inclusive facts about all pharm progs. Anyway my my pharm friends who attended state institution have schools loans around 60k and that includes undegrad too! I know private schools cost more, but the possibility of attending a professional school with a guaranteed high income upon graduating with such little debt is incredible. As far as the curriculum being laid back, I say this because it seems mainly lectured based. My med and pharm school friends can choose to go to class or not and learn/memorize the material on their own and just show up for the exam. Dental school does include traditional lectures, but is also very heavily lab based. Though I someitmes what to bang my head against the wall memorizing minute details about pathways of some hormone or patterns of cardiac rhythms, I don't have trouble learning the lecture material. it's learning the technical skills in dentistry that is the bigger challenge. The only way to get better is to practice and make mistakes and that can be very frustrating!! And by long hours of lab work I don't mean the lab work during class time, I mean staying after for hours to work on lab work because the time alotted during class is never enough or because your work didn't turn out the first time, so you have to start over from scratch. I know that pharmacy school has some lab courses, but I didn't think you guys had very much, so it's nice to know this info. Like I said, I was never interested in p;harm in undegrad, I never got past the counting pills and standing in one spot idea of pharmacy. (similar to how many view dentistry as just pulling teeth). I do wish I would have been more open to it because it seems like a great field to get into and perhaps a better fit for me. I'm in my 2nd year of dental school already and have no plans on switching, but am interested in learning more about pharmacy. Who knows how I will feel about dentistry when I'm actually out practicing, but for now I like it enough to continue.

My goal in posting this thread was simply to discuss and get others' perspective on pharmacy/dentistry, not for others to tell me which field to go into. I know many (probably most) of my classmates are in dentistry for the lifestyle/income, not exclusivley, but it is a HUGE factor. Pharmacy, in my opinion offers similar, potentially better benefits in comparison with less risk and sacrifice. So did you/do you ever consider it? Yes they are very different fields, for most of us, a job is a job. I enjoy healthcare in general but my passion is doing things with family and friends, living life, not work. This does not mean that I will be a bad dentist or pharmacist. I love to learn and know how to work hard.

I agree that business and banking can be very financially rewarding but those fields are highly unstable. Few make it big, but for most healthcare careers, you jump through the hoops(school) and you're pretty much gauranteed work and a stable income.

To airwolf, I hope you continue posting on here. It's nice to get the perspective of the happy, unhappy and the in between. Not everyone is going to love dental school/practicing dentistry, and that's ok. Seems like anyone who says anything negative about dentistry on this forum gets attacked (especially by the pre-dents). I agree that dentistry can be a very rewarding career to get into, but it's not all rainbows and sunshine, and it isn't for everyone. and that's ok too.

No offense but I think if i got a lower GPA, i would enter pharmacy program.
I think being a pharmacist is great, you do not worry about your business or being frustrated with staff. My shadowed dentist are mad all the time even the staff working efficiently.

 

[SugarNaCl]

With the high costs of dental school these days (150-300K) and the grueling 4 years to get through it...is it really worth it? It seems like the norm for new grads is to make below six figs and to top it off they often get screwed when associating by the owner dentists, plus no benefits, stress of the job itself, working in such a small area, deep in someone's saliva/blood. Sure , people always say find a job you love doing etc etc. but after working a handful of jobs, some fun, others not so much, I don't think i will love any job. i love spending time with my family, friends, traveling etc. so for me, my job will be a means to support the things i love rather than be the reason for me to get up everyday. So.. I've come to the conclusion that pharmacy is the best healthcare profession to get into, investment wise(you put in little and receive much more in return). Cost of pharm schooling is much lower(especially if you go to to a state school), curriculum seems much more laid back, optional attendance, no lab work, so you have more time during school to live rather than be slaving away for 4 years with only ocassional weekends to live for., much less stress in the working world(less liability), cleaner profession, easy to find a job and travel and work in different regions, guaranteed high income, benefits, more variety... Am I alone in this belief? I don't mean to turn this into a pharm/dent bashing, just wanted to get others' views on this. thanx!

There is such a thing as pharm/dent bashing? We have nothing to be insecure about to bash. We know we have the better field

 

[Zerconia2921]

What purpose does this post have for majority of us who have already made the decision of doing dentistry. We all have our seperate identities into what we find appealing about this career. It may be our alturistic approch to helping others or to those unfortunate soles who just care about money like the former poster. Whateve is the case you dont have to puresade anyone to do what they already are planning or are doing. Putting this post has no benifit for us just a pinch to our self concious if were making the right decision when that decioson had evolved through our researching and volunteering approach. To put it like it is do what you want if you think pharm is good then go for it dont preach to us.

 

[Gunner McGee]

It has basically turned into a business where they care more about profit than patients.

Its a good thing that dentistry hasn't gone in that direction

 

[54807]

Its a good thing that dentistry hasn't gone in that direction

 

[qwerty86]

Well crucial part of pharmacy is having all of the patient profile in ONE pharmacy. Therefore, a pharmacist can look deep into patients history and find any possible drug interactions. If patient gets multiple drugs at different pharmacies, its virtually impossible to correctly manage patient drug history.
Pharmacies facilitate this by setting up deals such as
"$25 Gift card for transfered prescription from another pharmacy"

This basically beats the whole purpose of having a pharmacist.

 

[OBL1V1ON]

all we (as people) are really after is happiness. if youre idea of happiness is 500k a year then odds are you wont be very happy in life. even if you do attain that income odds are that after 2 years of that...then only 1mil/yr will make you happy....i think you can see the pattern. all you really have to do to be happy is to have modest expectations. now, would i like to be in paris hiltons shoes....duh...who wouldnt? however, im not. none of us are, but should we grind our lives away in worship of the all mighty dollar so we can be happy? i guess that ones up to you...i know what i will be doing. being happy that i get to work inside on frozen winter days or blistering hot days, being happy that wherever i go in the world there will always be a need for my skills, being happy that for a job that we have to admit is not excruciatingly hard we get paid very well.

and yes, do i sound like im trying to convince myself of all of these points....hmmmm?

i guess we all have doubts...its normal.

its just i seem to have this bad feeling that the day i graduate pay for dentists will be locked in at 40k a year for the rest of time.

does anyone else ever feel like this?

 

[54807]

This basically beats the whole purpose of having a pharmacist.

You very correct regarding this. The pharmaceutical dispensing industry has spent billions of dollars on data organization, storage and retrieval. They spent tons of money on just-in-time supply networks. They were one of the first industries to fully implement a CIO into their business model and used management information systems trained employees.

Walgreens or CVS (one of the big ones) used to sell FOOD and then one day the CEO went nuts and decided to invest in a nationwide computer network for drug sales. Paid off big.

This streamlining has occured all up and down the drug supply chain to the point where you can track a lot of pills from manufacturer to patient delivery.

Your traditional pharmacist no longer has a the same purpose at the pharmacy. Schools and the profession have taken note. There are more opportunities for pharm grads to pursue residencies that train them in aiding and developing advanced treatment methods/drug cocktails for specific patients.

In the future, a cancer patient will likely visit with a pharmacist with advanced training in oncology meds and treatment planning.

Pharm is not dead. Just transitioning. They will have more say over drug delivery and will have more knowledge to help patients out. For better or for worse, they will have more power and more training. You wouldn't catch me in Pharm school right now....so boring. But I wouldn't have done dentistry 30 years ago.....