Is Medical School "Worth It" for Nontrads?

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A few thoughts from an attorney who has not gone to medical school, but is considering it:

Any reasonably intense profession will require very long hours and near total dedication. That's just life. I read some of these posts bemoaning the lack of time for writing and reading, for sailing and movie-watching, and I laugh. You think you're going to have that kind of time in other professions with high rewards, complex work, and responsibility?

Look, you'll have some time for outside interests, and you'll have time for family. You'll just have a lot less of it. You'll have to get more disciplined and more organized. That's all. Adapt and overcome. Waste less time, and use what time you have more efficiently. Plan more bonding activities, be a better partner and listener, or a better father or mother. Yeah, you won't be able to spend as much time starting time-consuming hobbies that you never really pursue over the long-term anyway. But if you've got a fulfilling career, then the sudden decline in your recreational drawing abilities will be worth it.

I can't speak to the demands of medical school, or residency. But I can speak to the demands of alternative professional careers. Long hours and dedication are the norm. Strategies for adaptation will be the same.

This...

Good for you Cogito. I'm a 2nd year law student and I am already plotting my exodus from law. I admire lawyers who refuse to resign themselves to ungratifying legal careers. There are so many unhappy lawyers that are enshackled by lucrative biglaw salaries. I'm glad I'm getting out before the golden handcuffs are even applied. Cogito ergo [I don't want to be lawyer.]

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Any reasonably intense profession will require very long hours and near total dedication. That's just life. I read some of these posts bemoaning the lack of time for writing and reading, for sailing and movie-watching, and I laugh. You think you're going to have that kind of time in other professions with high rewards, complex work, and responsibility?
No. Who in this thread said they did? Do you think that a pre-med who spent any time reading SDN thought they would have time for reading and writing, sailing and movie-watching?

We knew what we were getting into, we just misjudged how we would feel about it once we got there. As I said upthread, I thought that by going to medical school I was going to force myself to become a more ambitious person because if I didn't I wouldn't get any of the things I wanted in life. I had thought that the sacrifice of my other interests for medicine would be, as you say, worth it, but it's not.

My purpose has been to encourage others who think they are going to find fulfillment by forcing themselves to buckle down and become doctors (or anything else that's a lot of hard work that they're not truly interested in) against their own will, to think more deeply than I did about whether that will be worth it or whether they even have the emotional wherewithal to do it. What I mean by that is, if you're like me, you're thinking that the beginning of medical school is a clean slate, and you're going to conquer all of your past insecurities and shortcomings, and work really hard like the type-A person you're supposed to be, but when you get there, reality may be different. You may find yourself reverting right back to your old slacker tendencies.

I would not encourage anyone to pursue an alternative professional career, unless their interest in it was deep and genuine. From my vantage point, this is not one of those naive pre-med "OMG, just become a lawyer or investment banker instead!" threads. It's more a "consider whether you might be better off just accepting that you're not an ambitious high-achiever, and would be happier as something like a union electrican" thread.
 
This...

Good for you Cogito. I'm a 2nd year law student and I am already plotting my exodus from law. I admire lawyers who refuse to resign themselves to ungratifying legal careers. There are so many unhappy lawyers that are enshackled by lucrative biglaw salaries. I'm glad I'm getting out before the golden handcuffs are even applied. Cogito ergo [I don't want to be lawyer.]

Well, give yourself a chance first. There are happy lawyers too (I think). I understand that times right now for a second-year law student are probably somewhat disturbing (I work in biglaw in NY). Best advice to you, if you're already considering a career change, is to minimize your student debt now.
 
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No. Who in this thread said they did? Do you think that a pre-med who spent any time reading SDN thought they would have time for reading and writing, sailing and movie-watching?

We knew what we were getting into, we just misjudged how we would feel about it once we got there. As I said upthread, I thought that by going to medical school I was going to force myself to become a more ambitious person because if I didn't I wouldn't get any of the things I wanted in life. I had thought that the sacrifice of my other interests for medicine would be, as you say, worth it, but it's not.

My purpose has been to encourage others who think they are going to find fulfillment by forcing themselves to buckle down and become doctors (or anything else that's a lot of hard work that they're not truly interested in) against their own will, to think more deeply than I did about whether that will be worth it or whether they even have the emotional wherewithal to do it. What I mean by that is, if you're like me, you're thinking that the beginning of medical school is a clean slate, and you're going to conquer all of your past insecurities and shortcomings, and work really hard like the type-A person you're supposed to be, but when you get there, reality may be different. You may find yourself reverting right back to your old slacker tendencies.

I would not encourage anyone to pursue an alternative professional career, unless their interest in it was deep and genuine. From my vantage point, this is not one of those naive pre-med "OMG, just become a lawyer or investment banker instead!" threads. It's more a "consider whether you might be better off just accepting that you're not an ambitious high-achiever, and would be happier as something like a union electrican" thread.

Nothing I said was directed at you personally.

I agree with you about one thing: getting into any school will not change suddenly result in a change in personality, or necessarily work-habits. It's not basic training. It's not the military. Schools will hand you Fs and wish you the best as you leave. F*ck up during basic training, and and your drill sergeants will smoke you and "motivate" you until you stop screwing up; failure isn't an option.

Now, that said... I scrolled upthread a little to read some of your posts... I don't really think your problem is that you're not cut out for the medical world, or legal world, or any professional world. I don't. Study-habits, self-image, etc., are all highly plastic. They can be changed. You shouldn't rely on your school to change them for you; they probably won't. But you can take steps yourself to change them.

I find words like "lazy" or "slacker" to be some of the most counter-productive, misleading words in the English language. Their usage implies that an individual either has or does not have a work-ethic, and that's that. They attribute a habit--like studying regularly--to the identity of the person. It's absurd. No one is being "true to himself" when he thinks he is embracing his "laziness." It means that he doesn't know how to change a habit, nothing more. It means that instead of focusing on specific behaviors, he's focusing on vague and pointless self-criticism. He's ruminating about failure, rather than learning and moving forward.

And incidentally... you really do NOT sound unambitious. You sound like someone who is ambitious but hasn't quite figured out how to translate that ambition into everyday practice, and into a broader self-image.

The unambitious person doesn't go through the lengthy process of taking courses for medical school, applying to medical school, hoping to transform his personality in medical school, and then getting through two years of medical. You don't lack for ambition. I think---and granted I'm a stranger who does not know you, so take this for what it's worth---the issue is something else.
 
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Nothing I said was directed at you personally.
OK, fair enough. But I didn't see anyone else in the thread expressing that belief either.

I find words like "lazy" or "slacker" to be some of the most counter-productive, misleading words in the English language. Their usage implies that an individual either has or does not have a work-ethic, and that's that. They attribute a habit--like studying regularly--to the identity of the person. It's absurd. No one is being "true to himself" when he thinks he is embracing his "laziness." It means that he doesn't know how to change a habit, nothing more. It means that instead of focusing on specific behaviors, he's focusing on vague and pointless self-criticism. He's ruminating about failure, rather than learning and moving forward.
I don't want to give the impression that I advocate embracing laziness. That's definitely not what I was trying to say. I got my ass handed to me in an earlier thread where I made it sound like I thought it was OK to be a slacker, and I've learned some important lessons about that during second year. I agree that if you describe yourself that way you're contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy. What I'm trying to say is, be honest about what you really want. Don't be lazy, but if what you've always wanted is a laid-back, relatively slow-paced life, it's probably better to work toward that goal (e.g., figure out how to get into some kind of freelance line of work that you really enjoy), than it is to try to suppress that desire and enter a hard-driving type-A profession which, deep in your heart of hearts, you know you're not even genuinely interested in.

And incidentally... you really do NOT sound unambitious. You sound like someone who is ambitious but hasn't quite figured out how to translate that ambition into everyday practice, and into a broader self-image.

The unambitious person doesn't go through the lengthy process of taking courses for medical school, applying to medical school, hoping to transform his personality in medical school, and then getting through two years of medical. You don't lack for ambition. I think---and granted I'm a stranger who does not know you, so take this for what it's worth---the issue is something else.
OK, you got me. I think you're on to something. I actually have several ideas for potentially profitable projects I'd like to do, but the old fear of quitting the day job has always held me back. I've always been paranoid about not having a rock-steady means of support; when I quit my last job to start a post-bacc I had enough cash and investments to literally live for about three years at my then-current standard of living without working, but even then I was afraid to try. But that's a topic for another thread.

I agree with you about one thing: getting into any school will not change suddenly result in a change in personality, or necessarily work-habits. It's not basic training. It's not the military. Schools will hand you Fs and wish you the best as you leave. F*ck up during basic training, and and your drill sergeants will smoke you and "motivate" you until you stop screwing up; failure isn't an option.
I just wanted to highlight this for the sake of all the readers/lurkers out there, since it's relevant to my earlier reference to seeking a "boot camp" experience. If you really want an ass-kicking, don't sign up for an expensive, intense professonal degree program, where it will be your responsibility to kick your own ass. Instead, as long as you're young enough, join the military, where a drill sergeant will do it for you.
 
What I'm trying to say is, be honest about what you really want. Don't be lazy, but if what you've always wanted is a laid-back, relatively slow-paced life, it's probably better to work toward that goal (e.g., figure out how to get into some kind of freelance line of work that you really enjoy), than it is to try to suppress that desire and enter a hard-driving type-A profession which, deep in your heart of hearts, you know you're not even genuinely interested in.

I understand. My view is that the degree to which we perceive a schedule or work as hard or easy, and our ability to sustain that work in good humor, are all quite plastic.

That said, I agree, completely, that if you're not very interested in medicine, you shouldn't pursue it.

OK, you got me. I think you're on to something. I actually have several ideas for potentially profitable projects I'd like to do, but the old fear of quitting the day job has always held me back. I've always been paranoid about not having a rock-steady means of support; when I quit my last job to start a post-bacc I had enough cash and investments to literally live for about three years at my then-current standard of living without working, but even then I was afraid to try. But that's a topic for another thread.

Yeah, but you DID quit the old day-job. You invested in a post-bacc, and then you invested in medical school. And that wasn't a risk-free venture; far from it. You're not afraid, and you're not unambitious. You may have developed some poor study habits over your years, which you didn't adjust for medical school, and you might be sick of the book-heavy/clinic-light curriculum of the first two years of medical school--but I wouldn't give up on this so quickly. You sound a little discouraged, a little beaten down, and you're consistently describing yourself in negative terms. That doesn't mean it's time to throw the towel. To be honest, it more likely means that your assessment of whether medicine is right for you is biased in a pessimistic direction. This is the kind of mindset in which you do not want to make a life-altering decision.

But again, I'm a stranger, I don't know you, this is the internet, and I registered here for free. So if I'm totally off, no offense was meant.

I just wanted to highlight this for the sake of all the readers/lurkers out there, since it's relevant to my earlier reference to seeking a "boot camp" experience. If you really want an ass-kicking, don't sign up for an expensive, intense professonal degree program, where it will be your responsibility to kick your own ass. Instead, as long as you're young enough, join the military, where a drill sergeant will do it for you.

There are other avenues. Cognitive-behavioral therapy involves less PT and weapons training, but it is effective, and tends to fit better with a medical student's lifestyle. :)
 
Yeah, but you DID quit the old day-job. You invested in a post-bacc, and then you invested in medical school. And that wasn't a risk-free venture; far from it.
Well, you know, right after I wrote that post I thought: "I'll bet a lot of people would say that abandoning your old career and starting a full-time post-bacc is the epitome of quitting your day job and taking a risk." All I can say is that I just always believed I'd definitely get into medical school. That's certainly not the view that the majority of SDN posters would encourage one to take, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to take that view myself, but it is what it is. For whatever reason, I didn't have any doubts that I'd get into medical school. I should have, for wisdom's sake, but I didn't.

Plus, as I mentioned upthread, I thought medical school would give me a 100% chance of getting the girl, which was the main thing I wanted in life at the time. So, crazy as it sounds, I thought of this as a pretty well-defined, straight-shot path at getting what I wanted.
 
For those of you who are romanticizing the artistic/bohemian life (there seem to be a few here):

-people often expect artists to do things for free

-success in any artistic/creative field requires just as many hours of work per week as posters in this thread have been lamenting

-history is full of talented, passionate artistic types who never had commercial success in their lifetimes (whose work went on to make rich people even richer)

-art is a business, and if you don't have a head for business, well...

-all that "extra" time to "think" and "express yourself"... what you are expressing is what you have inside... if you are a positive person you will express your joy, if you are a negative person you will express your suffering. yes, it can be fulfilling, but it can also be emotionally tortuous.

-in medicine you have lots people scrutinizing your work. in art you have clients, readers, viewers, critics, patrons, audiences... in other words, lots of people scrutinizing your work

anyway, in conclusion, my little advice to anyone saying "oh, i wish i'd been a novelist/painter/actor/dancer/whatever" is ask yourself... would you want to do your hobby for 60 hours a week?
 
anyway, in conclusion, my little advice to anyone saying "oh, i wish i'd been a novelist/painter/actor/dancer/whatever" is ask yourself... would you want to do your hobby for 60 hours a week?

Except it would now be their profession and not a hobby.
 
For those of you who are romanticizing the artistic/bohemian life (there seem to be a few here):

Tell it sister. I mean. With all this art. And. Stuff. I gotta do. Like this chord just doesn't work here when I say ...she's my groovy lady...no grooovay LAAAday. Yeah. Like G minor I think to D major. LAAAAA-DDAA--huh---AYY. Yeah. Sweet.

Right and then. You know my dude never shows with the stuff on time you know. Like disappears to Mexico for months so I gotta hold like a pound.
And I always forget to buy food.

And then right like this red head over here. F'n follows me to all my gigs. And I'm like, if I let her blow me I'll never get rid of her. Yeah you know.

I'm thinkin of quitin this Bohemian like for good man.

I wanna be a pre-med.
 
I knew when I decided to enter medical school that it wasn't an "old person's" game. My parents always taught me that school was ideally done before spouse, kids and mortgage. That's why I could understand some nontrad's caution about med school. For people like Panda Bear who already have a family and successful career, the price of midcareer change may be very, very high. But for some of us who have no families, and have only begun our journey into a career that we did not enjoy anyways, I think med school was a wonderful decision. I'm not saying I enjoy med school, but I hated my old job and kept on regretting that I didn't apply to med school. This wasn't regret that came and went. I think it kind of gnawed at me, and I had no good reason to tell myself that I would be better off not doing med school.

It was also not a huge economic cost for me to do med school. I had a well paying job but there was guarantee that I would climb up to management and get my own IT group. I had no mortgage or no dependents. And there was no personal loss when I moved back home to do so. I left good friends at my old work place, but made new ones in school. And there was no spouse who had to relocate with me. I simply moved back home and lived with my parents.

In the end, if one has to tell nontrads whether to go for it or not, I can't say there's a good answer. From an economic standpoint, I would say don't do it if you have an established career and family to care. From an career standpoint, I'd say don't do it if you have started late in the game (35+yo). But from an emotional standpoint, I can't offer any advice. I've seen some people who truly love what they do so for them, it really is better that they ended up doing medicine despite whatever cost they had to endure. But then there are people who treat it as a job, and would be just as happy playing in the mud (met a gasdoc who wished he was a construction worker!).

I guess the only advice I can really offer is, for nontrads, doing medicine has a higher price (generally) than for the 22yo college graduate. So seriously think about it ask questions until you are certain this is what you want to do. There's no guarantee of happiness no matter what you do.


Thanks for posting this - it is an ensemble that concisely constitutes my own feelings upon this topic.
I will be an MS-1 come this August, and have chosen this path after 2 years in the beginning stages of a potentially very rewarding career path.

I love science. I love biology. And I look forward to the days ahead.
 
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It would beat doing something you're not genuinely interested in for 60 hours a week.

Hmmm... first, despite your stated motivation for going to medical school to be the eternal search for female companionship, there had to be something about the subject-matter and occupation that attracted you. There are LOTS of professions that one might think would win the swooning adoration of attractive females. You chose medicine out of all those possibilities. So there are other factors at work. I'm betting at least one of them is some fascination with how our bodies work, and some desire to be a healer, to be able to put that knowledge to use.

Second, it's really quite common for someone to be interested in a subject, or occupation, and then suddenly become "over-motivated" via external demands of school or a boss, and then suddenly decide that they're not really interested in the subject.

But what's really going on isn't a loss of interest in the subject. It's an adjustment to the external demands of school or a boss. It's working on something even when you'd rather be doing on something. And it's the fact that the subject is now no longer an escape from the pressures and stresses of life; the subject now is a PART of those pressures and stresses.

This will apply to ANY occupation you choose, in any field.

I will bet that if you focus on changing your study-habits, and become more comfortable with doing the academic work and handling the pressures, and generally become more satisfied with your approach, you will find your chosen field suddenly more interesting.

Of course, a lot of this will be a grind. That's just life. Whether you're writing a novel or learning the intricacies of long-term potentiation of synapses in the anterior hypothalamus, a lot of it will be a grind, regardless of whether those endeavors are your passion or calling.

So, I guess to sum up, the fact that you're finding this a grind is meaningless in terms of evaluating whether this a good profession for you.

It sounds to me like you're very dissatisfied in how you've approached medical school thus far. I understand. But this is something within your power to change. Focus on changing that before you decide that medicine isn't for you.
 
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Hi,

[FONT=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]After almost three years of farming our daughter to nurseries and daycare, we slowly realized that our daughter hardly knew us. We had too little time with our daughter, and were exhausted when we were home. Our kids (two of them by now) spent more time away from us than with us. We were missing the best part of being parents. We met several physicians whose kids were nannied full time, and were turning out troubled.


.
 
Hi,

[FONT=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]After almost three years of farming our daughter to nurseries and daycare, we slowly realized that our daughter hardly knew us. We had too little time with our daughter, and were exhausted when we were home. Our kids (two of them by now) spent more time away from us than with us. We were missing the best part of being parents. We met several physicians whose kids were nannied full time, and were turning out troubled.


.

Sorry. You're not allowed to disparage the medical profession in any way as it is apparently a Terms of Service violation. Please edit your comment to reflect that medicine is good for relationships and that all children of over-worked physicians grow up to be happy and well-adjusted.
 
Hmmm... first, despite your stated motivation for going to medical school to be the eternal search for female companionship, there had to be something about the subject-matter and occupation that attracted you. There are LOTS of professions that one might think would win the swooning adoration of attractive females. You chose medicine out of all those possibilities. So there are other factors at work. I'm betting at least one of them is some fascination with how our bodies work, and some desire to be a healer, to be able to put that knowledge to use.

Second, it's really quite common for someone to be interested in a subject, or occupation, and then suddenly become "over-motivated" via external demands of school or a boss, and then suddenly decide that they're not really interested in the subject.

But what's really going on isn't a loss of interest in the subject. It's an adjustment to the external demands of school or a boss. It's working on something even when you'd rather be doing on something. And it's the fact that the subject is now no longer an escape from the pressures and stresses of life; the subject now is a PART of those pressures and stresses.

This will apply to ANY occupation you choose, in any field.

I will bet that if you focus on changing your study-habits, and become more comfortable with doing the academic work and handling the pressures, and generally become more satisfied with your approach, you will find your chosen field suddenly more interesting.

Of course, a lot of this will be a grind. That's just life. Whether you're writing a novel or learning the intricacies of long-term potentiation of synapses in the anterior hypothalamus, a lot of it will be a grind, regardless of whether those endeavors are your passion or calling.

So, I guess to sum up, the fact that you're finding this a grind is meaningless in terms of evaluating whether this a good profession for you.

It sounds to me like you're very dissatisfied in how you've approached medical school thus far. I understand. But this is something within your power to change. Focus on changing that before you decide that medicine isn't for you.

OK, having just finished my first week of 3rd year clerkships (neurology,) my perspective on this is already changing. In many respects, it has been fun and exciting to be in the hospital seeing patients. I can definitely see how people would genuinely enjoy this. The downside is that my fund of knowledge is so limited. As I've mentioned in other threads, I barely studied enough to scrape by during the first two years, and my school's pass/fail curriculum allowed me to get away with this. Now it's coming back to bite me. My classmates who are on the service with me seem to really know their stuff, but I'm pretty lost. I already can't count the number of times that there was something everyone but me seemed to know.

So, I can really see the appeal in having spent two years studying this stuff--studying really hard--and then hitting the wards, taking that knowledge to the next level. The problem is in the amount of dedication that takes. I spent the last 2 years thinking way too much about non-med-school-related stuff, because I was on the fence about being a doctor. I wanted to be a doctor somewhat, but I also wanted to do a ton of other things, some of which conflict with becoming a doctor for the simple reason that there are only 24 hours in a day.

I would not now tell anyone, "medicine sucks, don't do it." You just have to count the cost. I'm sure it's thrilling to be a good doctor, but you have to devote yourself to it wholeheartedly. Is doing so worth giving up all that you'll have to give up? Only you can answer that question for yourself.
 
Okay, so you're saying that you're barely passing courses, everyone knows more than you, and you're feeling very lost. My question to you is why aren't you then motivated to learn the material so you are at a competent level? If you know you're struggling and you know you're behind, then why not do something about it? Aren't you worried that you're putting people's lives in danger by not knowing the material sufficiently? What I find scary is that one day you'll be practicing on your own with insufficient knowledge and dedication. Doesn't that make you feel even a little guilty? If you're not happy with medicine, perhaps even in it for the wrong reasons, then why continue on with it, and why jeaporidize other people's lives along the way!? I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk but you really need to think about what you're getting into and the possible consequences. Medicine is not just ANY career where you can do a half-ass job and get away with it. People's health and well-being are in your hands, and that in itself should be enough to motivate someone to learn the material.

OK, having just finished my first week of 3rd year clerkships (neurology,) my perspective on this is already changing. In many respects, it has been fun and exciting to be in the hospital seeing patients. I can definitely see how people would genuinely enjoy this. The downside is that my fund of knowledge is so limited. As I've mentioned in other threads, I barely studied enough to scrape by during the first two years, and my school's pass/fail curriculum allowed me to get away with this. Now it's coming back to bite me. My classmates who are on the service with me seem to really know their stuff, but I'm pretty lost. I already can't count the number of times that there was something everyone but me seemed to know.

So, I can really see the appeal in having spent two years studying this stuff--studying really hard--and then hitting the wards, taking that knowledge to the next level. The problem is in the amount of dedication that takes. I spent the last 2 years thinking way too much about non-med-school-related stuff, because I was on the fence about being a doctor. I wanted to be a doctor somewhat, but I also wanted to do a ton of other things, some of which conflict with becoming a doctor for the simple reason that there are only 24 hours in a day.

I would not now tell anyone, "medicine sucks, don't do it." You just have to count the cost. I'm sure it's thrilling to be a good doctor, but you have to devote yourself to it wholeheartedly. Is doing so worth giving up all that you'll have to give up? Only you can answer that question for yourself.
 
trismegistus,
Everyone feels like a ***** at some point during 3rd year. EVERYONE.
The fact that you do doesn't necessarily mean you are doing as poorly as you think. The main thing that helps in that situation is to read up on the disorder(s) of the particular patients that you are helping take care of at the time. Also, realize that you aren't going to, and are not expected to, have the same level of knowledge as a neuro resident or even an intern. You are a 3rd year medical student. Even for the people who seemed to be studyign all the time and who seem to know everything now, at least 1/2 of them are bs-ing their way through this. You may just not realize it.

As far as the person saying you are risking the patients' safety...not really true since med students 99% of the time are not allowed to do anything important anyway. I didn't really totally realize this until I was at least an intern, but the med students don't really do anything important or that affects patient safety, unless they are just grossly negligent and trying to do some procedure which they aren't trained to do, which pretty much doesn't happen in these days of lawsuit paranoia.
 
Okay, so you're saying that you're barely passing courses, everyone knows more than you, and you're feeling very lost. My question to you is why aren't you then motivated to learn the material so you are at a competent level?
When did I say I'm not?

Part of the problem is that I have not yet taken, nor began studying for, Step I, and a lot of the basic knowledge that everyone else seems to have is straight out of Step I. I only have one more clerkship, psychiatry, before Step I; everything else will be after I've studied for and taken it.

And yes, as a medical student you do nothing on your own and every history and physical exam finding you note is checked by a resident.
 
Interestingly, I recently befriended a guy who was in a similar situation to mine through another online forum. He said he went to law school because he thought it would make women like him, and, of course, it didn't. He graduated, practiced law for about a year, didn't like it, so he quit and became a teacher. Now he's become quite the ladies' man and says teaching provides more fodder for being attractive to women than law ever did.

I'm sure you must have thought of this (That is if you are still around; since I see this is an older thread.) but have you considered that it was b/c the person is relaxed and happier at what he is doing and who he is that he is now attracting more women? Nothing is more of a turn-on than a person that is joyful, has a sense of peace and contentment, and is confident. It's amazingly attractive. Also, since you tend towards the more abstract and artistic realm, well, as a women I will tell you that women (well many women) are incredibly attracted to sensitive men.

It's not a person's vocation, as you surely must now know, but it is how the person is--first with himself and then with other people.

Having grown up in some form of Christian home, I am sure you must know that Jesus taught and implied the imperative about loving others as we do ourselves.

It's a given, in my view, that you have to be good with yourself all by yourself before you can be any good with anyone else. I've shared this with pre-teens and teens in youth groups. Usually it flies over a number of them; but some really start to get it. There is just so much pressure to be hooked up with someone--even in grade school.

And I won't go too far into this, b/c when people share about being Christians, well that can mean different things to different people--even among various Conservative Christian groups of people. Plus I don't want to be all preachy. But here is something hard for any true Christian to bypass. That is that in growing in relationship with Christ, trust is a part of all things--including finding future mates. Now some folks think in a variety of ways about this. But in my view at least, if there is this sense of great faith and trust in God and in Christ, well, shoot, doesn't He know which person or at least type of person would be best suited to you and vice versa?


This is another thing people need to seriously consider. Just because you're smart enough to succeed at medical school doesn't mean you should do it. I got a 40 on the MCAT but am much more interested in literature, philosophy, politics, and music than I am in biomedical science. Even within the sciences, I'm more interested in the abstract, mathematical sciences like physics than I am in biology.

People on SDN are always saying "if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to succeed at other things as well." I heard that plenty of times as a pre-med, I just refused to believe it. I've become much more convinced of it over the past 2 years. Who's to say I couldn't have succeeded as a writer? I never even tried--just thought, "nah, that's too risky, better just go into medicine, where I'll have a steady day job with a guaranteed income."


I can't count the number of times in medical school that I've heard someone, whether a professor, an advisor, or a fellow medical student, refer to all medical students as "type A overachievers," say something like "if we weren't that way we wouldn't have wound up here in the first place," and I've sat there in silence thinking, "uh, no." Nothing makes me feel like I don't belong in medicine more than that. Again, before coming to medical school, I thought I was going to transform myself into that kind of person, but it just didn't happen.


I have to say that 40 MCAT is quite impressive. Maybe you are a selective overachiever. I think many folks are. It's hard to pigeonhole people like that. Some folks can be all OCD over some things and not so much over others. I know I'm like that, and I'm both left and right brained, so to speak.

Someone brought up a good point about not being in active clinical as a factor in the first two years for most MS programs. Going into MS-3, I'd like to read if this has upped your motivation and enthusiasm. ????

There is a reason why some med schools have started including more clinical/patient exposure earlier on in the process.




So, maybe you didn't start out in this field for the right reasons. It doesn't mean that God can't direct you and use you in a most fulfilling way somewhere in this field. That is, if you don't totally hate clinical interactions, etc. Some people do. Either that or they want to limit exposure to patients a lot, while other MSs are thrilled to have patients.

So, how are things going for you now?????


And for the love of God, trust that someone very special will come your way; unless you have some divine direction toward being single and celibate. And that's great too if that's how you are led; but from what you have shared here, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case--unless something has changed. So, yes, of course you will meet someone that is right for you and vice versa. Personally I think God can be very good that way if we trust Him and do the things He leads us to.
Truth is, often times real romantic, committed love comes when you are totally not looking for it--not even subconsciously. (Something about 'seeking certain first things first . . .')


Also, plenty of physician have written books about their experiences. I've been reading them for years--even way back when I first became a nurse. There was one I read sometime back called "Learning to Play God." It dealt more with the surgical residency I believe. It's been quite a while. My point is, if you aren't journaling things now, man, have it for God's sake. Reward yourself in-between your studies. If you are bent this way, and it seems that you are, it will do wonders for you now and in the future. You are surely be able to produce some awesome written work--beyond research journal writing, etc--just like you are surely able to meet that right person for you. It's simply that you can have it, but it can't always come at once. And when, at times it does, people don't appreciate it, or they somehow end up messing it up. Just trust man. You have skills and talent and a lot to live for!


You've gone out of your way to be quite honest it seems, and I appreciate that. Come on. Such an honest person has good things waiting for him.

Hope year 3 is much better for you. :)

Again, if you are still around, please update us.
 
It's never the line, it's whose delivering it. A Brad Pitt look alike would do well with that line. Never go to a professional school expecting it to finally give you a rap that works with the ladies. The dude working at Wall Mart is hooking up more than the average med/law/dental student. Why? Because he's busting a move, not expecting women to flock to him because of his status in life.


Does the dude at Wal Mart happen to be a Pharm.D?! ;)
 
I'm sure you must have thought of this (That is if you are still around; since I see this is an older thread.) but have you considered that it was b/c the person is relaxed and happier at what he is doing and who he is that he is now attracting more women? Nothing is more of a turn-on than a person that is joyful, has a sense of peace and contentment, and is confident. It's amazingly attractive.
Heck yes. I realize that's the main reason. That's why I realize that I have to embrace this medicine thing to some extent if I ever want to get anywhere. I haven't figured out how to do that yet since it's so painful for me.

Someone brought up a good point about not being in active clinical as a factor in the first two years for most MS programs. Going into MS-3, I'd like to read if this has upped your motivation and enthusiasm. ????
Not at all; in fact, it's worse now than it's ever been. The reason is that I don't know anything. My attendings ask, "OK, what's your assessment and plan?" And I don't know, because I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MEDICINE. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. I know a little bit. But I don't know nearly as much as we're supposed to know by this point. Every day is an agonizingly painful, discouraging, soul-crushing beatdown. It'll be a miracle if I pass these clerkships... honors? Forget it. And the irony is that this will keep me out of the competitive lifestyle specialties which people go into because they don't want their whole life to revolve around medicine, and force me into a demanding one. Hello pediatrics or family practice!

There is a reason why some med schools have started including more clinical/patient exposure earlier on in the process.
Yeah, because most medical students actually want to be doctors, something I've been forced to admit was never really true of me.

So, how are things going for you now?????
Extremely lousy. I failed Step I. Yes, you read that right: from 40S on the MCAT to failing Step I of the USMLE. Heed my words, aspiring nontrads, and don't think it can't happen to you. As I've remarked before, I thought that by getting into medical school, I had hit the World Series-winning home run, whereas in reality all I had done was make the team as a rookie. If you don't really like medicine, you're not going to be able to make yourself go through with all the work.

If there were the slightest shred of financial feasibility, I'd drop out right now, but seeing as how I would have no means of making the payments on the six-figure loan amount that would come due, I have no choice but to finish. This accursed millstone is forever fixed around my neck and there's no hope of getting rid of it. Now I have to take a review course and take Step I again. I have to postpone some of my clerkships to do so, which probably means not graduating on time. Then, with this huge red flag on my transcript, I'll get to match into family practice at some community program somewhere and spend the rest of my life staying late into the evenings prescribing antibiotics for URIs, while my type-A overachiever robotic-studying-machine classmates who actually had the willpower to make themselves sit there and do flashcards four hours a day for two years will match into anesthesiology and actually get to enjoy their lives.

Not to mention how hard it is to be attractive to women when you have this huge failure in your life.

I know a lot of people at this point will say, "don't you care about patients? You complain about how hard this is for you, but have you no shame? How can you be such a whining lazy bastard when patients are going to be depending on you someday?" To which I can only say, I know it's wrong, but this is where I'm at right now. You're thinking like a doctor, because that's what you are, or at least aspire to be, and you like medicine. I hate medicine and don't want to be a doctor. You don't know the agony of having to force your mind to focus on biomedical science 24/7 when what it naturally gravitates toward is literature, philosophy, and music. I made a mistake in applying to medical school, and the schools which accepted me made a mistake in doing so.

At the other end of the spectrum, I know people will read this and express concern for my well-being, so let me say that 1) I'm not suicidal, and 2) I have started talking to a mental health professional.

I'm always open to continuing to offer advice to nontrads, though obviously my chief concern at this point is to make sure that people who are now where I was a few years ago DON'T go through with it.
 
^^^Just wondering, do you have a natural ability to spatially visualize 3D objects in your minds eye?

Just read an interesting article saying

"Most doctors need to have a natural Spatial ability to fully grasp the inner workings of the human anatomy, they read x-rays in the same way an architect reads a floor plan, mentally converting 2-D images into 3-D forms.

Why is the spatial ability so important for the practice of medicine? The human body is a complex physical system, doctors who love their work are natural troubleshooters of spatial problems. One surgeon went on to become a race car mechanic, he was into "operating" on car engines! We've also met unhappy doctors who didn't realize they were low in the spatial talent, unfortunately you can't learn or add-on this talent if you weren't born with it. Lots of non-spatial dentists, chiropractors, and veterinarians have told us they suffer from undue stress worrying about making critical mistakes with their patients.

A lawyer, on the other hand, doesn't need to think spatially to do his job. The vast majority of lawyers use the opposite Non-spatial talent to work with abstract legal concepts. We've also met hundreds of bored lawyers who were really cut out for spatial careers like medicine, many spend their weekends happily doing home improvement projects to exercise this untapped ability."


Just curious if this is the case with you. I've met a lawyer who now wants to be a master carpenter saying he'd rather have a sore back than a sore butt from sitting on it all day. He enjoys making 3D objects and lacked it in his career which made him miserable.

Unfortunately sometimes people don't take their natural talents into account before deciding on a career instead basing it on outside forces (societal perceptions on certain careers, parents, women etc..).
 
trismegistus,
I agree that your situation is not ideal. However, you should not think that failing the Step 1 is going to totally trash your entire career. I think that is very unlikely. And you will have other career options besides just being a family practice doc. Other specialties like IM, pediatrics, psychiatry, physical med/rehab, probably pathology and some others also don't require high scores to get in. And honestly if you got a 40 on the MCAT you are more than capable of passing the step 1...you need to regroup, just get a copy of Rx for Boards and First Aid for USMLE Step 1 and study those pretty hard for a few weeks...for sure you will pass and might even surprise yourself with a high score. I know you don't like the stuff but come on...you definitely made yourself study the stuff during premed and during 1st/2nd year so you CAN do it.

For what it's worth, you don't have to do any residency at all if you don't want to. There was at least one person in my graduating class who went straight into consulting and I think got a good salary. There are other career options out there. You aren't as trapped as you think, but I do think it would be in your best interest to finish medical school, as you're already half way through.

And people don't really expect you to know that much during 3rd year...it actually took me about 2/3 of the year to figure that out. They KNOW you don't really know what the plan should be. They are just looking to see if you show up on time, write a decent looking note, and act "interested" (which usually equates to smiling a lot, kissing up some, and trying to be generally nice to the residents and your attendint). The savvy med students get tips from the resident on the assessment/plan portion of their note,and/or look it up in some book like First Aid for the Wards or Kelly's Textbook of Medicine.

It's definitely a good idea to talk w/ a professional psychologist or someone about this. Not because your feelings aren't valid, but just because you've got to figure out a way to finish up your last 2 years of school and keep your sanity. You're obviously a smart guy...I really don't have any doubt you can do it. 4th year is actually sort of easy at most places so if you can just suck it up for the Step 1 and for 3rd year, you're good.
 
thanks for the update. I've been reading your threads since whenever.
Anyways, good luck on step I.

Heck yes. I realize that's the main reason. That's why I realize that I have to embrace this medicine thing to some extent if I ever want to get anywhere. I haven't figured out how to do that yet since it's so painful for me.


Not at all; in fact, it's worse now than it's ever been. The reason is that I don't know anything. My attendings ask, "OK, what's your assessment and plan?" And I don't know, because I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MEDICINE. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. I know a little bit. But I don't know nearly as much as we're supposed to know by this point. Every day is an agonizingly painful, discouraging, soul-crushing beatdown. It'll be a miracle if I pass these clerkships... honors? Forget it. And the irony is that this will keep me out of the competitive lifestyle specialties which people go into because they don't want their whole life to revolve around medicine, and force me into a demanding one. Hello pediatrics or family practice!


Yeah, because most medical students actually want to be doctors, something I've been forced to admit was never really true of me.


Extremely lousy. I failed Step I. Yes, you read that right: from 40S on the MCAT to failing Step I of the USMLE. Heed my words, aspiring nontrads, and don't think it can't happen to you. As I've remarked before, I thought that by getting into medical school, I had hit the World Series-winning home run, whereas in reality all I had done was make the team as a rookie. If you don't really like medicine, you're not going to be able to make yourself go through with all the work.

If there were the slightest shred of financial feasibility, I'd drop out right now, but seeing as how I would have no means of making the payments on the six-figure loan amount that would come due, I have no choice but to finish. This accursed millstone is forever fixed around my neck and there's no hope of getting rid of it. Now I have to take a review course and take Step I again. I have to postpone some of my clerkships to do so, which probably means not graduating on time. Then, with this huge red flag on my transcript, I'll get to match into family practice at some community program somewhere and spend the rest of my life staying late into the evenings prescribing antibiotics for URIs, while my type-A overachiever robotic-studying-machine classmates who actually had the willpower to make themselves sit there and do flashcards four hours a day for two years will match into anesthesiology and actually get to enjoy their lives.

Not to mention how hard it is to be attractive to women when you have this huge failure in your life.

I know a lot of people at this point will say, "don't you care about patients? You complain about how hard this is for you, but have you no shame? How can you be such a whining lazy bastard when patients are going to be depending on you someday?" To which I can only say, I know it's wrong, but this is where I'm at right now. You're thinking like a doctor, because that's what you are, or at least aspire to be, and you like medicine. I hate medicine and don't want to be a doctor. You don't know the agony of having to force your mind to focus on biomedical science 24/7 when what it naturally gravitates toward is literature, philosophy, and music. I made a mistake in applying to medical school, and the schools which accepted me made a mistake in doing so.

At the other end of the spectrum, I know people will read this and express concern for my well-being, so let me say that 1) I'm not suicidal, and 2) I have started talking to a mental health professional.

I'm always open to continuing to offer advice to nontrads, though obviously my chief concern at this point is to make sure that people who are now where I was a few years ago DON'T go through with it.
 
miranda, you might not get a response out of Shinken since he last posted to this thread 9 months ago, but I'll do my best.


These are good questions. They're hard to answer because being in the thick of medical school is so different from being a pre-med, and it's hard to make yourself think like your self of 4 years ago.

I think medical school has actually matched my expectations pretty well. I had read SDN a lot, and had heard the most commonly cited high and low points about medical school. By and large, medical school has matched the impression I had. There haven't really been any big surprises. (Except, perhaps, the degree to which they push liberalism on us, but whether that will bother you depends on your philosphical views.) What hasn't matched my expectations is how I would feel about all of it, how much I would feel like buckling down and working really hard. Why that is is hard to explain.

I had kind of thought I'd enjoy it in a masochistic sort of way. I prepared for the MCAT entirely by independent study, and did well. So I thought I'd do OK in my school's curriculum, which relies heavily on independent study, is strictly pass/fail, and has infrequent exams. The problem is that, at the beginning of a block, with the exam 12 weeks away, it was just just too tempting to spend my afternoon playing video games or surfing the internet. Getting to the point where the exam was just around the corner would put the fear of God in me, and I'd spend the last couple of weeks of the block trying to catch up, which usually proved unsatisfactory as you may predict.

If I was sufficiently motivated to study and get A's in my post-bacc program, and study independently to do well on the MCAT, why did I revert to being such a procrastinator in medical school? Well, I could cite several reasons. One could point out that when I was a pre-med, everything I was doing was geared toward the concrete, relatively short-term goal of getting into medical school, and once I did that, my subconscious mind said "mission accomplished!" I felt like I had hit the World Series-winning grand-slam home run and could sit on the bench for the rest of the game basking in my heroism, when in reality all I'd done is make the team as a rookie at the beginning of the season. I just wasn't mentally prepared to keep working hard.

Also, something I've just recently learned about myself and begun to correct is that I've tended to place way too much emphasis on seeking validation from women. This might seem off-topic, but it's been a very significant factor in my life. As I mentioned, I thought being able to truthfully state that I was going to be a doctor would make women like me. When it didn't, that only made me frustrated and resentful, thus making me even less attractive to women, resulting in even more despair over being a failure with women, resulting in even more frustration and resentment... It might sound ridiculous, but I can't tell you how many times during the past 2 years I sat down to crack open a textbook, found myself unable to concentrate after about 30 seconds of reading, and muttered to myself "if only girls' eyes would light up every time I entered a room like I thought they would, I'd be able to blaze through this stuff and learn it like the back of my hand in no time."

I think it's sloppy thinking when people give lists of reasons without being able to unify them, though, so whenever I'm analyzing something I like to give one definitive reason. And in this case, while the above two factors are relevant, I'd have to say the biggest reason is just that I was unprepared for how it would feel to have more work than one can possibly do. Everyone says medical school is like trying to drink from a fire hose, and it's easy to think "oh, I know it will be hard, but I'll just do the best I can and not worry about it," but you don't have a feel for how hard it really is until you get there. When I did my post-bacc, I took bio, physics, and organic chemistry all at the same time, and while that's considered a hard workload, I had time to to EVERYTHING I thought I was supposed to. I could read every assigned chapter in the biology textbook, make flashcards and go over them enough to remember every bolded term, type up my lecture notes, read every assigned chapter in the organic chemistry textbook, do all the assigned exercises, make flashcards and go over them enough to remember every reaction, do all the assigned physics problems and learn how to use every formula. I felt I was fully prepared for the tests and had learned everything I was supposed to.

In medical school, however, it's literally impossible to do that. Our first day of year 1, the first lecturer of the day said, "right now is the last moment of your life when you'll be caught up." That has been proven true in more ways than I could appreciate at the time. Imagine it's your first day of class. At my school we only have class in the mornings, so we get out at noon and theoretically have the entire afternoon and evening to study. So you have some lunch and sit down with your books. You start the first assigned reading for that day--20 pages of, say, a genetics textbook. The material is dense and dry and unfamiliar to you, and you soon realize that if you want to understand it it takes several minutes to read one page. You also realize that even if you understand it now, you're never going to retain it for the test that's 12 weeks away unless you reinforce it by some other means, say, making flashcards. But if you made a flashcard for every bolded term in the reading, it would probably take you an hour or two, and that's just for one of several assigned readings for one day! Meanwhile, you've got 2 or 3 other, similarly dense assigned readings for that day, plus you're scheduled to start gross anatomy tomorrow and are supposed to read a lab guide and/or a few dozen pages of your anatomy text. Also, your physical diagnosis course starts this week, so you're supposed to read a chapter of your physical diagnosis textbook and memorize all the little steps of taking the HPI because you'll be expected to do it on a standardize patient. That session, by the way, will take up one of your evenings later that week, which then won't be available for study time. So you've got that hanging over your head--and tomorrow, you're going to get a handful of new assigned readings, which, similarly, there is no way to realistically complete.

You've heard that medical school is like drinking from a fire hose, so you figure you'll just sort out the important points from the unimportant details. But how are you supposed to do that? Maybe at some schools, where they give you prepared lecture notes and a syllabus, those can provide some clue, but we don't get them at my school. Just reading the text, you have no idea what's important and what can be disregarded. Yet you know that to learn everything would be impossible. Furthermore, when you have your PBL sessions, or they send you into the hospital for some early clinical experience, many of your classmates talk and answer questions as though they really know their stuff, as though they somehow were able to distill the important points from the readings and ignore the irrelevant details. (I've never really sought advice on this from my classmates, which was probably a huge mistake, but to this day I have no idea how they did it.) And you know that every day is going to be like this, 5 days a week for the next 12 weeks, at the end of which you'll have to take a test on everything you're supposed to learn.

I hope you can see that for me, anyway, it was easy to quickly fall into despair and think "what's the point in trying? I can't do all this, I don't even know where to start" and just start surfing the internet or playing a computer game.

That's my best explanation of why I've been so unhappy and haven't learned as much as I should have. I think I wouldn't have been so miserable if I had done this straight out of college; I've often thought of the fact that right now I could be 2 years into private practice as an anesthesiologist making $300k a year, either married with a family or with spare time to pursue my other interests. From where I am now, knowing that I won't be there until I'm 40, I think I would have been happier financing the pursuit of my other interests by some other means, one that didn't require such a colossal committment.

I think the reason for the disparity of opinions is just that some people are truly interested in it and some aren't. Everyone's interests are different. Some people are math and science geeks, some people are creative arts geeks. The people who are truly happy in medicine are those who are just innately, really interested in biomedical science, for whom that's their true passion. My true passion is writing, and anything that detracts from my ability to spend time writing I tend to view as a chore. When I think about practicing medicine full-time for the rest of my life I recall the apocryphal Thoreau quotation, "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them." I imagine myself in the midst of a busy day, trying to explain some patient's diagnosis to him, with this nagging thought in the back of my mind about having a novel at the top of the New York Times bestseller list, and living a life filled with regret.

Tris, I didn't even read further than your post. Thank you for providing intelligent and honest insight into the life of a medical student. I'm over 30, and getting ready to apply. Nearly half my friends are physicians, all of whom have very different points of view on the medical field. Some of them are fed up with their careers, and some knew it even in med school. One finished med school and then decided not to go into residency. He's a writer :)

The advice every physician has is the same as your own cautionary tale: DO NOT go into this lightly. Get the best perspective you can on what the job actually entails, and think very seriously about what you're willing to sacrifice without looking back on with regret in the future.

I think I can present a very interesting case to ADCOMs about why I belong in medical school. My story is convincing. But what matters most is what I tell myself when I'm up at 4am getting ready for another exam, knowing that this is the life I'm choosing. It's never going to be easy, and I'm going to miss out on too much. I'm going to lose sleep teaching myself things someone else should teach me, and I'm going to have to deal with ridiculous politics through every step of the training process, and throughout my career. Medicine is not glamorous or pretty. At times, it's downright dehumanizing, to patients and physicians-in-training (and physicians) alike. And if I'm totally honest with myself, I know I'll be paying off my own student loans as I'm sending my own kids (hopefully) to college. I want this. I'll probably age prematurely simply in the pursuit of medicine, but I'm ready for all that it entails. I'm also lucky to have an amazing fiance who will be there throughout this journey, and a family that thinks I'm doing the right thing, as crazy as it seems.

There should be more threads like this in the traditional pre-med forum. Students should know what they're getting themselves into before going to med school.
 
Heck yes. I realize that's the main reason. That's why I realize that I have to embrace this medicine thing to some extent if I ever want to get anywhere. I haven't figured out how to do that yet since it's so painful for me.


Not at all; in fact, it's worse now than it's ever been. The reason is that I don't know anything. My attendings ask, "OK, what's your assessment and plan?" And I don't know, because I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MEDICINE. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. I know a little bit. But I don't know nearly as much as we're supposed to know by this point. Every day is an agonizingly painful, discouraging, soul-crushing beatdown. It'll be a miracle if I pass these clerkships... honors? Forget it. And the irony is that this will keep me out of the competitive lifestyle specialties which people go into because they don't want their whole life to revolve around medicine, and force me into a demanding one. Hello pediatrics or family practice!


Yeah, because most medical students actually want to be doctors, something I've been forced to admit was never really true of me.


Extremely lousy. I failed Step I. Yes, you read that right: from 40S on the MCAT to failing Step I of the USMLE. Heed my words, aspiring nontrads, and don't think it can't happen to you. As I've remarked before, I thought that by getting into medical school, I had hit the World Series-winning home run, whereas in reality all I had done was make the team as a rookie. If you don't really like medicine, you're not going to be able to make yourself go through with all the work.

If there were the slightest shred of financial feasibility, I'd drop out right now, but seeing as how I would have no means of making the payments on the six-figure loan amount that would come due, I have no choice but to finish. This accursed millstone is forever fixed around my neck and there's no hope of getting rid of it. Now I have to take a review course and take Step I again. I have to postpone some of my clerkships to do so, which probably means not graduating on time. Then, with this huge red flag on my transcript, I'll get to match into family practice at some community program somewhere and spend the rest of my life staying late into the evenings prescribing antibiotics for URIs, while my type-A overachiever robotic-studying-machine classmates who actually had the willpower to make themselves sit there and do flashcards four hours a day for two years will match into anesthesiology and actually get to enjoy their lives.

Not to mention how hard it is to be attractive to women when you have this huge failure in your life.

I know a lot of people at this point will say, "don't you care about patients? You complain about how hard this is for you, but have you no shame? How can you be such a whining lazy bastard when patients are going to be depending on you someday?" To which I can only say, I know it's wrong, but this is where I'm at right now. You're thinking like a doctor, because that's what you are, or at least aspire to be, and you like medicine. I hate medicine and don't want to be a doctor. You don't know the agony of having to force your mind to focus on biomedical science 24/7 when what it naturally gravitates toward is literature, philosophy, and music. I made a mistake in applying to medical school, and the schools which accepted me made a mistake in doing so.

At the other end of the spectrum, I know people will read this and express concern for my well-being, so let me say that 1) I'm not suicidal, and 2) I have started talking to a mental health professional.

I'm always open to continuing to offer advice to nontrads, though obviously my chief concern at this point is to make sure that people who are now where I was a few years ago DON'T go through with it.

So I finally read through the thread, and again I applaud your honesty. All is not lost. I skipped a lot, but did anyone mention Michael Crichton? He graduated medical school and never practiced or finished even an internship year. I'm just sayin'...

Seriously, you will graduate with a fantastic degree that will open doors for you, regardless of whether or not you ever again set foot in a hospital. Think of this as graduating college anew, with more opportunities than you had before. If you want to write, write. You can take almost any job that pays the bills while you pursue your dreams. You got into med school as a non-trad...the only difference now is that you have the same abilities and more letters behind your name (once you finish, and you WILL finish).
 
I made a mistake in applying to medical school, and the schools which accepted me made a mistake in doing so.

Tris,

Thank you for posting this. I want to hear about the low points in the life of the non-trad medical students. It ought to scare the bejeebers out of me. I've been depressed like you describe and I don't want to be that way ever again. In my case, depression is the result of long-term stress without a resulting success. It results in a feeling that life will never get any better. Your circumstances would discourage me also. There is a slight possibility that I will be where you are at in a few years. One reason that this doesn't frighten me away from medicine is that I don't think that your self-judgment is completely reliable right now.

I'm glad to see that you are not quitting during this bad time. You have found a reason to keep moving, even if it is a negative reason. When you do come out on the other side, let us know. I want to know what happens.
 
Hi,

[FONT=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]After almost three years of farming our daughter to nurseries and daycare, we slowly realized that our daughter hardly knew us. We had too little time with our daughter, and were exhausted when we were home. Our kids (two of them by now) spent more time away from us than with us. We were missing the best part of being parents. We met several physicians whose kids were nannied full time, and were turning out troubled..


This is a very old post, so I apologize for going off on a tangent, but I just had to comment.......... my kids have both been in daycare since they were 3 months old and neither one of their parents is a physician or anything close to it. (I am a non-trad going back to school next year and my husband works in IT). It's not the greatest, maybe, but it's reality for a very large chunk of people.
There seems to be an assumption on any board I have ever gone to looking for advice for nontrads (at sdn and elsewhere) that physicians somehow corner the market on not being able to spend lots of time with their kids. In the 8 couples we are friends with socially, there is not a single lawyer, doctor, or engineer. There is also not a single child that doesn't spend the bulk of their time in daycare/preschool/school. This is going to be the case with most any family that has two parents working full-time away from home.
This is not a world where only doctors, lawyers and CEOs have long hours at work.
 
And now I will comment on the discussion at hand.....

I appreciate the honesty in these posts. Unfortunately we are limited in our advice-offering powers (and also in our ability to take the advice of others;)) by the narrow scope of our own, very personal experience. For many, as has been pointed out, going back to med school is a huge mistake. But I do think that there are probably just as many for whom it is the only thing to do. The trick is to really examine your own motives and figure out the real "why" of going back to school for you. I once had an old (still-working at 79!) physician tell me that you should only go into medicine if absolutely nothing else will do. If you think you could be happy doing something else, anything else, he said, then please do not go into medicine. It will not be worth it and you will be very unhappy.
I think that's the trick..... figuring out where you stand on that continuum.
For me.....I can not wait to start school next year! Despite all of the nay-saying advice I get from so many (at my age, there is absolutely a lot of nay-saying advice! lol) But I will tell you that the people who really know me very well (many of whom are physicians themselves, and are the people whose nay-saying advice I would actually seriously consider) say nothing but "Congratulations. We always knew you would do it."
Oh, and BTW....if you are a non-trad woman........you should check out the forums and blogs on MomMD. You will find some naysayers there too, because obviously, it's not for everyone. But you will also find women, with families no less, who went back to med school in their 30s and came out on the other side and will tell you how hard it was. Not all of them would do it again, for sure. But some of them will also tell you how thrilled they are with their decision and that they would absolutely do it again.
 
Okay, so I think I would like some advice on whether I should go back. 28F, no husband, no kids, no boyfriend. My current job is that of environmental compliance chemist for a Japanese company, making $34,500/year. I have recently been having some second thoughts after reading these boards, because although I have no kids/husband now, I would like to someday (sooner rather than later, PM me if interested in this opportunity ;)). The school I am applying to is a DO school in my home state, so I would remain within a few hours driving distance from my family. My specialty of choice (at this time) is anesthesiology, so the debt hopefully would not be a big deal, as I would have a respectable salary, certainly more than the pittance I make now. Advice? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller. Bueller. Bueller.
 
the issue here i think is much like tobacco. I chew. I know chewing tobacco is bad for my health. i know it is disgusting. my wife bugs me all the time. but i also know that i will be unsuccesful at quitting if I am not ready to quit. people can read these threads day in and day out and everyone will justify in their minds that this advice does not apply to their situation. but i completely understand the purpose of it because maybe there is 1 or 2 people on the edge and just needed pushed one way or the other.

the bottom line is it is easy to shrug off the advice. when i get mouth cancer i will say my wife was right i should have quit chewing. and when i get to med school i may say these people were right, it isn't worth. but i am certain that i won't feel that way until i get there and that is how it is.
 
Just curious if this is the case with you. I've met a lawyer who now wants to be a master carpenter saying he'd rather have a sore back than a sore butt from sitting on it all day. He enjoys making 3D objects and lacked it in his career which made him miserable.
Not really. I do enjoy working with my hands, but spatial reasoning is not one of my strongs suits. But I wonder whether I wouldn't have been better off as a plumber or electrician.

For what it's worth, you don't have to do any residency at all if you don't want to. There was at least one person in my graduating class who went straight into consulting and I think got a good salary. There are other career options out there. You aren't as trapped as you think, but I do think it would be in your best interest to finish medical school, as you're already half way through.
Yeah, I've toyed with that idea. I've browsed corporate job postings looking for jobs for MD's, but so far all the ones I've seen in what little time I've spent are looking for people who have completed a residency and practiced medicine for a little while. I'm not sure yet, but if there were a job I could get straight out of medical school I might be open to it.

And people don't really expect you to know that much during 3rd year...it actually took me about 2/3 of the year to figure that out. They KNOW you don't really know what the plan should be. They are just looking to see if you show up on time, write a decent looking note, and act "interested" (which usually equates to smiling a lot, kissing up some, and trying to be generally nice to the residents and your attendint). The savvy med students get tips from the resident on the assessment/plan portion of their note,and/or look it up in some book like First Aid for the Wards or Kelly's Textbook of Medicine.
I've had people say this before, and it makes me wonder whether I'm doing an adequate job of conveying just how lacking my knowledge is. We're talking usually being unable to answer the most basic "pimping" questions. I have no idea what the various areas of the brain control, or what travels through the different tracts of the spinal cord, or where in the nephron sodium is reabsorbed, or what the causes of elevated bilirubin or microcytic anemia are. People ask me a question and all they get is a blank stare. I barely passed my neuro clerkship, only did well in psychiatry because it doesn't involve hardcore medical knowledge, and when I do internal medicine and surgery, I can only hope that enough of the Step I review course I'm going to do will stick with me enough that I can get by.


Tris, I didn't even read further than your post. Thank you for providing intelligent and honest insight into the life of a medical student. I'm over 30, and getting ready to apply. Nearly half my friends are physicians, all of whom have very different points of view on the medical field. Some of them are fed up with their careers, and some knew it even in med school. One finished med school and then decided not to go into residency. He's a writer :)
Cool. How did he make that happen?

I think I can present a very interesting case to ADCOMs about why I belong in medical school. My story is convincing. But what matters most is what I tell myself when I'm up at 4am getting ready for another exam, knowing that this is the life I'm choosing. It's never going to be easy, and I'm going to miss out on too much. I'm going to lose sleep teaching myself things someone else should teach me, and I'm going to have to deal with ridiculous politics through every step of the training process, and throughout my career. Medicine is not glamorous or pretty. At times, it's downright dehumanizing, to patients and physicians-in-training (and physicians) alike. And if I'm totally honest with myself, I know I'll be paying off my own student loans as I'm sending my own kids (hopefully) to college. I want this. I'll probably age prematurely simply in the pursuit of medicine, but I'm ready for all that it entails. I'm also lucky to have an amazing fiance who will be there throughout this journey, and a family that thinks I'm doing the right thing, as crazy as it seems.
That's great, but I said the same thing when I was in your position. I knew it was going to be hard, and thought I would enjoy the challenge. The latter is what I was wrong about. Medical school has matched my expectations in terms of how demanding it is and how much it takes over your life; what has not matched my expectations is how I would feel about it once I got here.

So I finally read through the thread, and again I applaud your honesty. All is not lost. I skipped a lot, but did anyone mention Michael Crichton? He graduated medical school and never practiced or finished even an internship year. I'm just sayin'...
Yes, he was getting novels published while he was still in medical school. I have no idea how he had the time to write while a full-time medical student. I know it's self-defeating to protest that I can't do things, but when I hear about these doctors with entire second lives and second livelihoods, like Crichton or Arnold Kim (the guy who started Macrumors.com in med school and kept it going all through residency and fellowship) I think they're just on a higher plane. There are smart people, and then there are geniuses. I can't imagine putting in a full day as a resident or private practice physician, and having enough mental energy left over to go home and write.


I once had an old (still-working at 79!) physician tell me that you should only go into medicine if absolutely nothing else will do. If you think you could be happy doing something else, anything else, he said, then please do not go into medicine. It will not be worth it and you will be very unhappy.
One hears that sentiment on SDN all the time. I had heard it plenty of times before I ever applied to medical school. The problem is, as FrkyBgStok points out, if you have decided for whatever reason, known only to you, that you want to do this, you can always find reasons why the advice doesn't apply to you. Let me describe what I did.

I've said before that I wanted to go into medicine in order to get the girl and have a good life. I truly believed that medicine would accomplish those goals for me. However, I knew that the only way to become a doctor was to want to do it for its own sake. So I had a dilemma: I wanted to go into medicine for some other reason than for its own sake, yet felt I had to go into medicine because the secondary benefits it would bring were the only way for me to achieve happiness in life. How did I solve this dilemma? By intentionally lying to myself and convincing myself that I really did want to go into medicine for its own sake. I figured, if I can change the way I think, if I can make myself want to become a doctor just for the sake of being a doctor, then I will get into medical school and do well at it, and if I do that, then I will get what I really want (only by then, it won't be what I really want, but just a nice-to-have secondary benefit. But I'll still be happy, because I have it.)

Messed up, right? The human mind's capacity for self-deception is incredible.

Anyone who thinks they're interested in medicine needs to promise to be honest with themselves. You need to truthfully answer the question: do I really want to be a doctor, or do I just want to want to be a doctor?
 
Dear Trismegistus4:

I know you said you are seeing someone; but I'm wondering if your lack of motivation, at least in part, is due to some primary clinical major depression.

I don't look to pills to solve all problems, so please don't misunderstand me. Actually, even w/ primary conditions or actual physical conditions that directly affect the brain and cause depression, many times--as w/ many illnesses and disorders, a multi-tiered approach will yield the best success.

But I am wondering if you indeed need to see someone on top of a therapist--like a psychiatric that could trial you and titrate as necessary until you both find a good SSRI or other agent--at least for a while. From what I know and have seen, therapy often IS MORE productive after the client has been on, say for example, the right SSRI for a least a couple of weeks. When the brain isn't working right--regardless of whether it is "the chicken or the egg--meaning physiologically initiated or emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually initiated--or some combination of both, it is often quite amazing to see people make more progress after they get chemical neurotransmission and such in balance.

Also, perhaps you need a good, thorough physical to screen for endocrine or other issues.

When "wires are crossed" for whatever reason, it makes openness, clarity in thinking, and general insight and honesty difficult. Geez it's like trying to reason w/ a women in the throes of severe PMS or PMDD or severe peri-menopausal symptoms. I'm not being sexist just honest. Once you can balance that out physiologically, wow, it's a different ball game.


Also, I know you might snicker, but consider doing some review of sound nutritional supplementation and daily exercise--aerobic--liking running or something like that. There are definitely certain nutritional substances that affect neurotransmission. Good fatty acids, omega -6, well honestly there is a lot, and you really have to study it a little at time--on top of everything else, I know it's hard. Good B-complex, lecithin, Mg, Ca, and others. Doctors Oz and Roizen have put out some good information.


Honestly, I think before you respond to any number of points others or I have brought up here, I think you need to be as OBJECTIVE as you can be on the whole and ask yourself, "Could I have Primary Major Depression—physio-biochemically initiated or secondary to other things?"

I read how deeply you are stressing; yet you don't want to let go of medicine just yet. At the same time, you speak of how you so hate it. I am not so sure you can tell to what degree or how or why do you hate it so? If there is the cloud of primary major depression, it will be hard, if not IMPOSSIBLE to objectively sort this out.

Surely you are not so predominately right-brained if you scored so well on your MCAT. What you need is a merging of sorts.
But again I don't think you will find this, at least not any time soon, w/o some exploration into things physiologically.

I'm sorry to repeat, but even if it is a neurochemical issue brought on or worsened by emotional and psycho/social/spiritual issues, it's still affecting you mentally, emotionally, physically etc on the whole. So at least initially, it may not much matter which came first etiologically--the chicken or egg kind of thing. By getting a physical and possibly starting on the right anti-depressant and being on it for a while, and also perhaps employing some naturopathic and wellness principles, I think you really may find more "quality of life" in what you are doing right now--and you may begin to be open to more clarity and perhaps various, promising options in this field. You then may even be able to embrace areas that do interest you while incorporating less interesting material, such as, "need-to-know" things into this process.

You can't tell until you get completely checked out. I mean a very thorough Hx w/ CC w/ a physical that includes blood work and a referral to a good psychiatrist. I mean it will involve looking into what and how you eat, sleep, exercise, what nutritional supplements you may need, etc. Again, I think it will involve a multi-tiered approach, but I'd start with an excellent physical from a very insightful and reputable IM or FM physician.

Tris, stark serious here. . .something is going on, and I really wonder that there may be a physiologic, hormonal, thyroid, who the heck knows component. And if not, at least you have some peace of mind when you go to the psychiatrist—and that will help him or her hone in more as well. How the psychiatrist helps you, should, ideally aid how therapy helps you. I also believe there has to be a good "click" w/ the therapist, a lot of patience, cause true therapy takes time, and the ability to bring physiological elements under control so that you both can more effectively evaluate the why and hows of what is going on with you on a deeper level.


I truly hope you will stop beating yourself up over making your choice in going to med school. Your resentfulness towards others that are doing well is a poisonous bitterness in itself, and it speaks to symptoms and/or deeper issues. And that's OK, so long as you see it and get the right help, understanding, support, and treatment for it.

What's more, emotionally and perhaps even sexually, honestly, you seem lonely and frustrated. But before you deal with that you have to deal with whether or not you are really in great shape physically--or if you could, at least for a time, benefit from say the right SSRI or other agent from a reputable psychiatrist. And then get serious about incorporating sound exercise and wellness practices.

Listen, you have decided to stick with it (Med school), so until/unless you decide to just let it go (financial concerns notwithstanding) and not be passive-aggressive about it, you might as well see if getting an excellent physical and work-up and going to a psychiatric--and then setting out to find ways to improve you overall wellness will not change your perspective--at least enough to get through this med school experience with some positive, productive sense of things and a sense of hope. Hope seems pretty much gone in a person with serious, primary major depression. But this whole experience and really nothing is ever wasted unless we choose it to be.

Also, in general, I find that psychiatrists manage the various psych agents better than most FP or IM physicians. I mean they know better when to just titrate or switch--they work primarily w/ these meds and issues all the time.
When a person's brain chemistry is off--for whatever reason/s--the person can feel like he/she hates just about everything--and to them it seems the light at the end of the tunnel is either nonexistent or they are somehow cursed from finding it. But there is light and it is findable.



I also wonder about your social/support network.

I do think many folks here are taking you seriously and well, after all that you have shared, they care. You're a fellow human being that has a lot to contribute. But how will you know or get excited about all that that may be if, on say some physiological level, things may not be firing up to par????



Major depression most definitely affects your ability to concentrate, among many other things; it taints everything around you.
Seriously, when someone shares what you have shared online here, I begin to wonder about primary major depression. If that could at all be possible—and given the statistics for both men and women of all ages and the stress and isolation of med. school, yes, it most definitely could be.

Nothing is going to make sense until you get it in check with the right people, txs, support systems. I'm not kidding. If you don't have a psychiatrist, go and find a reputable one—recommended from reliable people. And get a physical w/ your primary and maybe some blood work. This will only get worse unless you get some treatment now. Talk to an advisor—consider taking a LOA if you have to. Don't let this go.

 
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Okay, so I think I would like some advice on whether I should go back. 28F, no husband, no kids, no boyfriend. My current job is that of environmental compliance chemist for a Japanese company, making $34,500/year. .


If you want to get married and have a family NO.

Ok I want to chime in here. I have been on and off these boards for a lonng time. In case you don't know here is a little bit about me. I went through undergrad, went to Law school (which was miserable), and half way through law school I was so depressed that I decided I wanted to be a doctor. Well in my 2nd year of law school I also became a medic, and began working on my pre reqs for med school.

Long story made short I talked to quite a few people, worked as a medic during my summer after my second year of law school and was dead set on being a DOC. But i got some good advice reading Panda MD's blog. He saved me!!

I decided it would not hurt to take the bar exam, passed, and said bye bye to my whole dream of medical school!! I want to be totally honest here! I HATED LAW SCHOOL WITH A PASSION. But once I graduated i found a great job, making high 5 figures, low 6 figures only working 4 days a week. With three days off a week!! YES...

In short I totally do not regret not going to Medical School now. I have been a licensed attorney now for two years. And really when it comes down to it, I want to enjoy LIFE!!

You type A people know what I am talking about. You want to change the world, do something interesting, but when it comes down to it, a job is a job. I love my job, but at the end of the day, I love the pay, and I love having free time.

So if you are like me and you want a family one day and you are in your late 20s I would advise you not to go back to graduate school. There are so many young and old people out there who believe that a certain career or profession will give them happiness. Well I have bad news for you it won't! Ultimately at the end of the day your quality of life counts for something. IF you are young, then I say go for it. But if you are semi young and already have a good career don't waste your time unless you feel you must.


That is just my two cents. I am so happy with my choice. Just wanted you to think about that. :D
 
As far as medicine goes, if you're not a physician, it's just a job.

Really? You went there? There really are many people who are employed in the health care industry who believe far differently than you. That's not constructive criticism, or good advice... it's simply a poor opinion.
There are many RN's, practitioners, PA's, Flight nurses and medics, etc, who I'm sure would very much disagree with you. You're version of the "top" job, the "only" career in medicine, the one you loathe so much, may not be everyone else's goal.
You hate it, yet you compare all other careers to it with great biase. I've never met so much indifference from my wife even.
 
I've never met so much indifference from my wife even.



Dude, what are you on?? :laugh:
 
Dear Trismegistus4:

jl lin, thanks for your concern. I've thought of being evaluated for depression. I might be said to meet the DSM-IV criteria, though they're somewhat subjective. But I see two problems with this:

1) Is it depression if your mood is contingent on what you're currently doing in life? I think I may meet the DSM-IV criteria when I'm immersed in the world of 3rd year of medical school, but when not, I don't. Even the counselor at the univeristy counseling service noticed that I perked up when talking about non-medical subjects. He asked me, if I don't feel like I fit in in the world of medicine, where do I feel like I fit in? I answered that I think I'm more of a creative person and began to talk about how when I was a teenager I wanted to be a writer and also about my interest in music. He remarked upon how I became noticeably more animated and happy-sounding as soon as I began to talk about those things. If this is the case, can I really be said to have major depression? If so, is medical school itself the cause of my depression, and wouldn't that mean that the ultimate solution is for me to leave the world of medicine?

2) I wouldn't call myself a hypochondriac, but there have been several times in the past when I've been worried that something was wrong with me, went to the doctor, and was assured that it was nothing. For thing ranging from the development of astigmatism for the first time at age 25, to some frequent heart palpitations I was having a few years ago, to worries about a couple of moles on my skin, I've seen doctors and been told "there's nothing wrong with you, it's perfectly normal, you don't need medical attention for this." Just based on my past experience, I'm not optimistic about being told that treatment is indicated for me. Every time I've been to a doctor in the past, I've felt like they saw me as one of these overzealous people who reads about something on the internet and mistakenly self-diagnoses.

All of which leads me to wonder, how do people usually get diagnosed with depression? I've seen a few patients in clinic who had it, one just this past week, who came to the FP doc for a refill on her Zoloft and Wellbutrin. This woman came in knowing what she wanted. Do docs often make the diagnosis on the basis of complaints of symptoms, or do people usually have to say, "listen, I really think I have major depression, I really want to try an SSRI"?
 
And now I will comment on the discussion at hand.....

I appreciate the honesty in these posts. Unfortunately we are limited in our advice-offering powers (and also in our ability to take the advice of others;)) by the narrow scope of our own, very personal experience. For many, as has been pointed out, going back to med school is a huge mistake. But I do think that there are probably just as many for whom it is the only thing to do. The trick is to really examine your own motives and figure out the real "why" of going back to school for you. I once had an old (still-working at 79!) physician tell me that you should only go into medicine if absolutely nothing else will do. If you think you could be happy doing something else, anything else, he said, then please do not go into medicine. It will not be worth it and you will be very unhappy.
I think that's the trick..... figuring out where you stand on that continuum.
For me.....I can not wait to start school next year! Despite all of the nay-saying advice I get from so many (at my age, there is absolutely a lot of nay-saying advice! lol) But I will tell you that the people who really know me very well (many of whom are physicians themselves, and are the people whose nay-saying advice I would actually seriously consider) say nothing but "Congratulations. We always knew you would do it."
Oh, and BTW....if you are a non-trad woman........you should check out the forums and blogs on MomMD. You will find some naysayers there too, because obviously, it's not for everyone. But you will also find women, with families no less, who went back to med school in their 30s and came out on the other side and will tell you how hard it was. Not all of them would do it again, for sure. But some of them will also tell you how thrilled they are with their decision and that they would absolutely do it again.



If I may be so bold to ask, since I've read more than one of your responses where you mentioned age as a factor, which decade are you in--30' 40's, 50's? I mean someone on an adcom making a comment about you being too old is really out of bounds legally and otherwise.

Sorry not happy to hijack the thread and make reference to another one, but based on other things you've said on this board, I am quite curious. I want ot know how common such comments are to people over 36. Have to prepare myself. I don't see why if one is clearly over 18 and they've met the other requirements, why it is relevant to write it on the application. Many people, if you look at them, you can't tell what their age is. If society was not so idiotically ageistic, people wouldn't hesitate to share their ages.
 
jl lin, thanks for your concern. I've thought of being evaluated for depression. I might be said to meet the DSM-IV criteria, though they're somewhat subjective. But I see two problems with this:

1) Is it depression if your mood is contingent on what you're currently doing in life? I think I may meet the DSM-IV criteria when I'm immersed in the world of 3rd year of medical school, but when not, I don't. Even the counselor at the univeristy counseling service noticed that I perked up when talking about non-medical subjects. He asked me, if I don't feel like I fit in in the world of medicine, where do I feel like I fit in? I answered that I think I'm more of a creative person and began to talk about how when I was a teenager I wanted to be a writer and also about my interest in music. He remarked upon how I became noticeably more animated and happy-sounding as soon as I began to talk about those things. If this is the case, can I really be said to have major depression? If so, is medical school itself the cause of my depression, and wouldn't that mean that the ultimate solution is for me to leave the world of medicine?

2) I wouldn't call myself a hypochondriac, but there have been several times in the past when I've been worried that something was wrong with me, went to the doctor, and was assured that it was nothing. For thing ranging from the development of astigmatism for the first time at age 25, to some frequent heart palpitations I was having a few years ago, to worries about a couple of moles on my skin, I've seen doctors and been told "there's nothing wrong with you, it's perfectly normal, you don't need medical attention for this." Just based on my past experience, I'm not optimistic about being told that treatment is indicated for me. Every time I've been to a doctor in the past, I've felt like they saw me as one of these overzealous people who reads about something on the internet and mistakenly self-diagnoses.

All of which leads me to wonder, how do people usually get diagnosed with depression? I've seen a few patients in clinic who had it, one just this past week, who came to the FP doc for a refill on her Zoloft and Wellbutrin. This woman came in knowing what she wanted. Do docs often make the diagnosis on the basis of complaints of symptoms, or do people usually have to say, "listen, I really think I have major depression, I really want to try an SSRI"?

These are questions and concerns to bring up with your practitioner. One of the key things is how your questions and concerns are addressed. If they are just glossed over, I'd go see someone else.
 
These are questions and concerns to bring up with your practitioner. One of the key things is how your questions and concerns are addressed. If they are just glossed over, I'd go see someone else.

The thing is, I feel depressed when I'm in the thick of med school, but in the doctor's office as a patient I probably wouldn't come across as depressed. At parties, when I've been able to put school out of my mind for the weekend, I'm laughing and telling jokes with the best of 'em. If you met me in such a situation you'd never think I was depressed. I'd be having no psychomotor ******ation or agitation, no depressed mood, no anhedonia, no feelings of worthlessness. In the middle of the day in the hospital, I certainly have all of those things, but not when I'm off. (And I've never had weight changes or sleep disturbance.) I don't see myself as being able to present myself to a doctor as depressed, because the minute I'm off-duty, I'm no longer depressed. I see myself as being perceived as a drug-seeker. "This guy? Depressed? Yeah, right. He just doesn't feel like dealing with medical school and wants drugs for the easy way out. And unnecessary pharmacological therapy is unethical and poor medical practice, so I'm not prescribing anything. All he needs is some CBT."
 
The thing is, I feel depressed when I'm in the thick of med school, but in the doctor's office as a patient I probably wouldn't come across as depressed. At parties, when I've been able to put school out of my mind for the weekend, I'm laughing and telling jokes with the best of 'em. If you met me in such a situation you'd never think I was depressed. I'd be having no psychomotor ******ation or agitation, no depressed mood, no anhedonia, no feelings of worthlessness. In the middle of the day in the hospital, I certainly have all of those things, but not when I'm off. (And I've never had weight changes or sleep disturbance.) I don't see myself as being able to present myself to a doctor as depressed, because the minute I'm off-duty, I'm no longer depressed. I see myself as being perceived as a drug-seeker. "This guy? Depressed? Yeah, right. He just doesn't feel like dealing with medical school and wants drugs for the easy way out. And unnecessary pharmacological therapy is unethical and poor medical practice, so I'm not prescribing anything. All he needs is some CBT."

I don't think you need to worry about being perceived as a "drug seeker" looking for a prescription for the easy way out. I can back this up for a few good reasons. Generally, your "drug seekers" are those looking to score narcotics and/or benzos. People that are interested in being evaluated for the possibility that an anti-depressant might be appropriate are not drug seekers. They are exploring possible answers to a problem that isn't going to fix itself by wishing it didn't exist.

That said, it's possible that medication isn't an appropriate treatment for you. That doesn't mean that a psych consult is a waste of time either since there is more to treatment than neurotransmitter altering medications. Try to look at your dilemma from an objective standpoint. In all other respects you're doing fine, but in your current program of study and yikes! possibly your future, you are very unhappy. This inhibits your motivation which negatively affects your performance, which causes you to be more unhappy. It's a self perpetuating cycle.

Just dropping out isn't the easy answer either since you have so much financially and emotionally invested. Trying to just get through doesn't seem like the optimal option either. I can only suggest that you get a consult, seek professional advice. If you're blown off as some guy that just doesn't want to deal and is looking for the easy way out, you need to find yourself someone professional and competent. What kind of a joke of a practitioner has the mindset that, "well, I have no medication for what you've got, so I guess I can't help ya"

There was something telling about how you listed the classic depression criteria symptoms. Almost as if you have this subconscious notion that help is only available to a person presenting with a such a case. And since you don't fit that case, therefore what help can there be? I can be totally misinterpreting, so take it with a grain of salt.

Not that I am any authority on the art and science of medicine.... but, I do believe it transcends the grasp of a person as merely a list of signs and symptoms.

I hope this helps you find help in some way. I'm not certain I'm even coherent at this point. Long weekend, long hours, very tired, but still too wired to sleep. Anyway......

By the way, have you started keeping a journal yet?
 
Wow, Tris. I am sorry I missed your response earlier. It wasn't intentional at all. I'm going to respond in two posts d/t word count.

Response Part I:

Without going too far in any direction, suffice it to say the DSM can be general but all practitioners need to know it has its limitations. Each person must be looked at individually--from intake to their first visit w/ a reputable psychiatrist to a full Hx and even family hx--yes that matters.

And there is good probability all things won't be picked up on the first visit. As you have previously stated, denial can be a very strong force. In my experience, a fair number of folks react to the notion of depression as if it were being thought of as having a horrible STD. They so react to it that they just can't or won't consider the genuine possibility of it--or they avoid it--that is, until more of the symptoms and functional problems grow to such that they have to admit something more serious develops.

There is a stigma to having depression for many people--especially in the world of type-A professions. I mean the attitude is "How in the world can we be thought capable of caring for others if we ourselves have such a serious problem?" And then as is the norm, the depression and whatever else tends to only get worse.

You may not be suicidal now--that is, if, indeed you are being totally blunt honest with yourself. That does not mean that that won't change. Major depression does move on a progression--a continuum of sorts. Just b/c you are not in total despair now doesn't mean that you are not in clinical depression.

We tend to try to compensate for things. It's as our natural homeostatic response physiologically, and it's true psychologically as well. So you focus your despair and frustration all on one focal point. I am in no way stating that feeling trapped and at odds with your career choice is NOT a factor. The thing is; it's probably not the whole deal.

You took steps to get where you are. And there is no judgment or fault in that. I think you are being so way harsh with yourself about your pursuit of medicine. But whatever directed you on this path is more than just wanting to find girls or a great mate. It seems quite probable if it were solely that and you were still miserable in your choice, you would have cut your losses first year. A number of medical students do that. I'm mean you would by far the only person to have done that. I can't presume to know all the ins and outs of that—but my original point was and still is that neither CAN you be sure IF in fact there are not other forces at play here. And there is a more than decent chance that there are.

I agree with Right's comments. It would NOT hurt to see a highly recommended psychiatrist. Let him or her do an evaluation on you. And don't be surprised if it will take more than a couple of visits. Listen, I'm the last one to want to push meds—and NO ONE can make you take them. It's just that in a fair number of instances in the adult population, a trial on say an SSRI may help regulate things in such a way that you might be able to get closer to the core problem. Seriously when things aren't firing as they are supposed to, it makes clarity almost impossible.

I'm saying if you really want to move forward and get some insight into the bigger picture with you—and pull things together to improve your quality of life and perhaps PREVENT things from getting worse with you, I'd consider doing two things:

Make an appointment with a reputable, caring, highly recommended primary care physician for a full workup.
Get a referral and do the intake for a reputable, caring, highly recommended psychiatrist.


I am putting this link in here now, but yes there are more scholarly pieces I will post for you to look through. It's clear and a decent place to start.

http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/depression/causes.shtml



Also, I know you are a medical school student, but stop trying to diagnose yourself—trying to evaluate all the specifics scientifically and "objectively." It won't work for the most part. What is that saying, "A person that has himself for his psychiatrist is a fool."? It's not to say we can't help ourselves; it's just that we have a very tight, limited perspective and limited ability towards more objectivity when it comes to viewing ourselves.

I have no idea if you need X or Y. But I‘d be willing to bet that there is something more going on other than medical school angst and career-regret. Sheesh. If life were only that simple. . . .

To jump through all the hoops in order to get into med school, have a inkling early on in the process (first year) about it not being a good fit for you, yet you are still in it (3rd year) says to me that there is more going on. And you also demonstrate some other things w/ regard to esteem and relationship attitudes and concerns that stand out.

You may even have a disorder that makes it more difficult to set apart what's going on. There are plenty of people that do demonstrate OCD, for example, yet they are not overly fastidious about being neat—they are not like the tyical Monk character per se. But a person can obsess and have compulsions about other things. A number of people that get stuck in the whole "either/or" or rigid "black or white" mentality have some form of OCD going on. Things are either all good or all bad. They are either all black or all white.

Things don't always manifest as perfect textbook presentation. And while everything is not a zebra, what I've learned is that there are many people that present w/ common ailments and illnesses in an individual and less than typical manner. There are a number of folks like this with thyroid problems IMHO are one example. They struggle for a long time, b/c physicians don't always individualize eval and dx approach. And it is only more recently that they began to find that there were indeed a lot more people that are truly borderline DM—or at the jumping off period for DM than they had realized years ago. In line with that, it has become best practice to keep blood glucose levels lower and tighter to prevent the horrible plethora of complications that come from DM. (A very high percentage of my of adult CABG patients in recovery were DM. Autoimmune disorders are also quite interesting in this sense. Some theorize that more are popping up, but others make a good point in understanding that we can diagnose them better than twenty to thirty years ago—and that many of them are by their very nature variant and atypical in presentation. It's estimated that the aveage SLE patient goes ten years before getting a solid diagnosis. That's a long time of suffering and getting pretty darn frustrated.
 
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Response Part II
You are an individual. In the midst of your distress right now, whatever the cause or related issues, it is unrealistic to believe you can objectively evaluate yourself on the whole of what is going on. And in general none of us grows and develops in a vacuum. We need feedback from balanced and insightful people.

I really do feel for you and your situation. I know you have spent a lot of money. And yes you could have stopped MS after or some point within year one. So, you'd be behind financially the cost of a car payment rather than the cost of a home. Financially speaking—and not even considering the investment factor, there is a huge difference between buying a car (obviously not a Lamborghini) and buying a home.

As with most people, there is more going on with you sir than meets the eye—even your own.
Seek help. If you don't find anyone that is really looking to help you—sometimes it can take a while to find the right psychiatrist, physician, or therapist. (With any of those--especially the psychiatrist and the therapist--a good fit definitely matters; b/c there is a process of working through things—often hard things—and the ability to feel that you trust the person that you're working with is HUGE.)

I can' t help but think that if you don't key in on this soon, you will be trying to push through the rigors of residency and all that comes with it, and it will push you over the edge—b/c residencies often push the healthiest most balanced and well people to the brink. People underestimate how stressful residency is. There are ups and downs like everything; but I have worked with countless stressed out and exhausted residents—and I am actually amazed at how some of them keep civility and keep cool in the midst of it all. I mean nurses, especially in certain areas, certainly know about crap running downhill. They know stress, exhaustion, and agitation can be pushed on to them. That's why a number of nurses seem overly tough. They didn't just get that way overnight. And then some of us try to be understanding of the whole without feeling like we are being too dumped on. (I speak here mostly with respect to the poor, abused surgical residents. Some nurses just want to jump all over them without understanding the surg. residents side of things. And then sometimes you just have to draw a line in the sand for everyone's sanity or at least your own. For me, I don't plan on doing a surgical residency. I don't feel drawn to it and I don't think it is my forte, and I don't think I could tolerate the rotational crap for more than a couple of months. Shoot other residencies are hard enough.)

So hone in with the right people on what is going on with you now; b/c trust me, it stands to only get worse when you are really pushed to the your limits, and I promise you, you will be. It really doesn't get as tough IMHO (from my perspective that is) until residency.


I think depression is a lot like anorexia and bulimia or diabetes or heart disease for that matter—if left to itself, it usually ends up getting worse. Please stop going back and forth with this and just make a commitment to see some reputable people to help you figure this out. There is no shame or blame in not fixing it yourself.

In fact you probably cannot—at least not enough. Sure there is the rare individual like Victor Frankl; but I'm sure even he had times when he had to depend to some degree on others. We are relational beings, and we generally find growth by way of relationship—so long as it involves are the right kind.

If you feel up to it; maybe keep some here informed. You have much life to live yet; and I for one hope for you that you might live it optimally and joyfully.

On a personal note, I decided, as a matter of fact, that the 80/20 rule can work w/ regard to productivity in life by way of 80% being the routine, more mundane or difficult things; whilst 20% is those things that we feel more creative about or more desirous of doing. Yes you theoretically learn this early in life too. But sometimes the reality of it hits home more than others.

It's the people w/ habits of discipline connected with vision that make the greatest strides and live most optimally. Every work in life will involve around 80% less thrilling things and 20% or so more fulfilling or delightful things. Living in the moment means finding the wonder in the 80% as well. I think those are probably the happiest people.



As an illustration, at my high school there was a man that moved here from Asia, and many of us grew to love him. He was the grounds keeper. I went to a fairly big high school, so this says a lot. I'll call him Mr. May. Well students loved him so much they built a beautiful garden courtyard and dedicated it to him.

Near the time of our graduation, many of us were surprised to find out, first of all, how old the fellow actually was—he looked, spoke, and acted decades younger than his actual age. Second of all we found out that he was filthy rich. Seriously. But rain, shine, obnoxious kids w/ their noisy cars and endless sloppy behaviors or not, he was out there doing his thing and was kind and truly caring w/ others.

He wasn't always thrilled with the kids' slovenly, obnoxious behaviors and how things were devastated after a football game. But he took pride and even joy in his work. He actually loved his job as grounds keeper, and he didn't need to lift a rake or wrench in order to make ends meet--his were already "met," so to speak.


The mundane became even a joy to him. And it left an impression upon the students. I think he CHOOSE to love what he did. Some of it, like the gardening, he definitely enjoyed more--he really loved gardening, and he was great at it. But the down side of it--his job, well, he learned to love and in the process touched many kids. I think he learned the value too of growing young people even more than growing shrubbery.

I don't know if that could help in any way at all; but it was something I was thinking about today, and I thought I'd share.

Please see some good people. They will help you step back and look at things in a way that is difficult if not impossible to do right now on your own.


Take care.
 
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I don't think you need to worry about being perceived as a "drug seeker" looking for a prescription for the easy way out. I can back this up for a few good reasons. Generally, your "drug seekers" are those looking to score narcotics and/or benzos. People that are interested in being evaluated for the possibility that an anti-depressant might be appropriate are not drug seekers. They are exploring possible answers to a problem that isn't going to fix itself by wishing it didn't exist.

That said, it's possible that medication isn't an appropriate treatment for you. That doesn't mean that a psych consult is a waste of time either since there is more to treatment than neurotransmitter altering medications. Try to look at your dilemma from an objective standpoint. In all other respects you're doing fine, but in your current program of study and yikes! possibly your future, you are very unhappy. This inhibits your motivation which negatively affects your performance, which causes you to be more unhappy. It's a self perpetuating cycle.

Just dropping out isn't the easy answer either since you have so much financially and emotionally invested. Trying to just get through doesn't seem like the optimal option either. I can only suggest that you get a consult, seek professional advice. If you're blown off as some guy that just doesn't want to deal and is looking for the easy way out, you need to find yourself someone professional and competent. What kind of a joke of a practitioner has the mindset that, "well, I have no medication for what you've got, so I guess I can't help ya"

There was something telling about how you listed the classic depression criteria symptoms. Almost as if you have this subconscious notion that help is only available to a person presenting with a such a case. And since you don't fit that case, therefore what help can there be? I can be totally misinterpreting, so take it with a grain of salt.

Not that I am any authority on the art and science of medicine.... but, I do believe it transcends the grasp of a person as merely a list of signs and symptoms.

I hope this helps you find help in some way. I'm not certain I'm even coherent at this point. Long weekend, long hours, very tired, but still too wired to sleep. Anyway......

By the way, have you started keeping a journal yet?


I'm smiling, b/c I just looked up and noticed that you are also a nurse--CCRN too! LOL

Pretty good advice for "just a nurse." LOL & SMIRK.;)
 
I don't think you need to worry about being perceived as a "drug seeker" looking for a prescription for the easy way out. I can back this up for a few good reasons. Generally, your "drug seekers" are those looking to score narcotics and/or benzos. People that are interested in being evaluated for the possibility that an anti-depressant might be appropriate are not drug seekers. They are exploring possible answers to a problem that isn't going to fix itself by wishing it didn't exist.
Oh, I know the classic definition of "drug seeker" connotes addictive substances. I don't really think I'd be perceived as what people usually call a drug seeker. I just also know how people are perceived when they present saying "I would like to try a medication for X." In medicine, the approach to such a person is to say (in not so many words) "whoa, let's back up a minute and see if you even have X in the first place. Let's talk about signs and symptoms."

That said, it's possible that medication isn't an appropriate treatment for you. That doesn't mean that a psych consult is a waste of time either since there is more to treatment than neurotransmitter altering medications.
I agree, and I actually would like to try an antidepressive. I'm just not optimistic about getting a prescription for one.

If you're blown off as some guy that just doesn't want to deal and is looking for the easy way out, you need to find yourself someone professional and competent. What kind of a joke of a practitioner has the mindset that, "well, I have no medication for what you've got, so I guess I can't help ya"
Don't think of it as blowing someone off; just making a judgment that treatment is not indicated because the rewards don't outweigh the risks. I don't know whether it's me; maybe I just have a way of putting my best foot forward in face-to-face interactions, but it's been my experience that whenever I think something might be wrong with me, no one else does.

There was something telling about how you listed the classic depression criteria symptoms. Almost as if you have this subconscious notion that help is only available to a person presenting with a such a case.
I was just reading the DSM-IV criteria. Technically, you don't have major depression unless you meet the criteria and we were taught that psychiatry uses that by-the-numbers approach to diagnose people. That said, I know there are people who have presented to their family doc with vague complaints of depression, and the doc has just entered a diagnosis of "Depressive Disorder NOS" and prescribed an SSRI just to try it and see what happens.

By the way, have you started keeping a journal yet?
No. It's a good idea. I have made several starts at one over the past 2 years, but I never keep it up. Just too many things I want to do throughout the day, and before you know it it's 11:50 PM and I'm still posting on SDN and I need to get to bed. Maybe I should make it a higher priority.
 
I was just reading the DSM-IV criteria. Technically, you don't have major depression unless you meet the criteria and we were taught that psychiatry uses that by-the-numbers approach to diagnose people. That said, I know there are people who have presented to their family doc with vague complaints of depression, and the doc has just entered a diagnosis of "Depressive Disorder NOS" and prescribed an SSRI just to try it and see what happens.


That is not at all necessarily true.



Furthermore:

[The following cognitive factors (which affect judgment and perception) are associated with depression:
  • Chronic low self-esteem [?]
  • Distorted perception of others' views [?]
  • Distorted sense of life experience [x/?]
  • Inability to acknowledge personal accomplishment [?]
  • Negative idea of self [x]
  • Pessimistic outlook [x]
  • Quick and exaggerated temper [?]
. . . Age
Although depression can occur at any age, its onset is typically between the ages 24 and 44. Later onset may correlate with the absence of a family history of depression. Fifty percent of people with major depressive disorder experience their first episode of depression at about age 40, but this may be may be shifting to the 30s. Studies find that the rate of incidence is higher among middle-aged people.
. . . .
Depression can be so overwhelming that a person cannot recognize the symptoms. Many symptoms are revealed only when treatment begins.
. . . .

Other Symptoms of Depression
In addition to the main criteria for diagnosis, several other symptoms are common to depression. These include the following:
  • Withdrawal (i.e., from family, friends, work, school)
  • Quitting activities previously enjoyed (e.g., sports, hobbies)
  • Violence (especially in depressed adolescents and the elderly)
  • Inability to cry despite the urge
  • Generalized negative views
  • Memory loss (i.e., plans, short-term)
  • Slumped posture, especially when at rest
  • Lack of facial expression
  • Repeated loss of concentration, often with trancelike staring
  • Substance dependency (e.g., alcoholism, illicit drug use)
  • Disregard for appearance and personal hygiene
  • Compulsion that affects most normal activities
  • Recurrent need to get away, leave town, or talk of this need
. . . .

Depression Diagnosis
There are no laboratory tests to diagnose major depressive disorder. Physicians rely on a thorough psychological examination and the elimination of other disorders as diagnoses
. .. .

Diagnostic Criteria for Major Depressive Episode
The American Psychiatric Association has established the diagnostic criteria for the evaluation of a major depressive episode, which are reproduced here.

At least five of the following symptoms have been present during the same two-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood, or (2) loss of interest or pleasure. (Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a physical condition, mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations, incoherence, or marked loosening of associations.)
1. depressed mood (can be irritable mood in children and adolescents) most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by subjective account or observation of others
2. markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by subjective account or observation of others), and apathy most of the time
3. significant weight loss or weight gain when not dieting (e.g., more than 5 percent of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day (in children, consider failure to make expected weight gains)
4. insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
5. psychomotor agitation or ******ation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
6. fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
7. feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)
8. diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)
9. recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, suicide attempt, or a specific plan for committing suicide
APA. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th ed. 1994. Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association (APA).


*Depression: Causes and Risk Factors
Original Date of Publication: 03 Feb 2001
Reviewed by: Stanley J. Swierzewski, III, M.D.
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/depression/causes.shtml
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/depression/causes.shtml
 
Bennie was right. This is pathetic.

Reading this thread is like listening to Morrissey albums. And then a poetry slam where teenagers emote about their mood changes in free verse.
 
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