Is Medicine really full of Wealthy upper middle class people??? (poll)

[EMDO2018]

I keep hearing this, and I wonder if its true. If so, are poor people even more rare than minorities in med school? The school im attending has about 5 (other)black kids in the class and most of them seem well off.

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[goft20]

Well, I'm not in medical school but I plan on applying. I'm not jay z rich but I was 25 sitting on 25 mil.

But don't get me wrong, I started from the bottom and was in a wheelchair for a while so I know what it feels like to be poor.

Being broke sucks.

 

[EMDO2018]

I think maybe I should have narrowed the poll for people who are already med students or who have been accepted.

 

[alpinism]

Yes.

This really shouldn't be surprising though.

 

[mehc012]

My family income has gone from <$20k to >$85k throughout my lifetime, hitting pretty much every level in between. We used to be on food-stamps in a trailer park, and now we're breaking into upper middle class. Where do I fall in the poll?

 

[EMDO2018]

well I guess so

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Do you think it will be our responsibility to encourage students from lower SES groups to pursue medicine by funding scholarships and the like? I do think this is important (and is certainly something I hope to do later in life), although I recognize that the factors contributing to lower academic performance by lower SES groups are not totally amenable to throwing more money at these kids.

 

[mehc012]

Do you think it will be our responsibility to encourage students from lower SES groups to pursue medicines by funding scholarships and the like? I do think this is important (and is certainly something I hope to do later in life), although I recognize that the factors contributing to lower academic performance by lower SES groups are not totally amenable to throwing more money at these kids.

Having lived, as I said above, in most SES brackets between welfare and upper middle class (and then gone to college with über-rich to boot), I am hugely torn on this issue.
a) Scholarships ARE needed, to a certain extent, because at some point you just can't do what you don't have money for, even in America where credit flows like water. One of my greatest fortunes in life is that I made it through college without debt and without bankrupting my mother.
b) Money is not the biggest factor creating disparate outcomes - attitude and expectations are. My family valued education. We climbed the way we did because my mother, despite initially supporting 4 people on one less-than-minimum-wage salary (including an infant and a senior citizen with Alzheimers), had come from a middle class family and knew that the way up and out was through education (back then she had a high school diploma. Now she has a Ph.D). She expected a lot from herself, something that neither my father, much of his family, nor much of our community did. Not everyone can pull themselves out, but so, SO many never even begin to think of trying, as odd as that sounds.

So money alone isn't enough, but without it you get nowhere. People always seem to pump money in, then get frustrated at its lack of effect and give up. I'm not really sure how to address that.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Do you think it will be our responsibility to encourage students from lower SES groups to pursue medicines by funding scholarships and the like? I do think this is important (and is certainly something I hope to do later in life), although I recognize that the factors contributing to lower academic performance by lower SES groups are not totally amenable to throwing more money at these kids.

Yeah it's tough when you're from that background. But I feel that much of this has to be addressed before ppl get to college. Summer enrichment programs for middle school and high school kids from these backgrounds would help substantially. I think it's better to start college on equal footing (or as close as possible) to those that have been more fortunate.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Having lived, as I said above, in most SES brackets between welfare and upper middle class (and then gone to college with über-rich to boot), I am hugely torn on this issue.
a) Scholarships ARE needed, to a certain extent, because at some point you just can't do what you don't have money for, even in America where credit flows like water. One of my greatest fortunes in life is that I made it through college without debt and without bankrupting my mother.
b) Money is not the biggest factor creating disparate outcomes - attitude and expectations are. My family valued education. We climbed the way we did because my mother, despite initially supporting 4 people on one less-than-minimum-wage salary (including an infant and a senior citizen with Alzheimers), had come from a middle class family and knew that the way up and out was through education (back then she had a high school diploma. Now she has a Ph.D). She expected a lot from herself, something that neither my father, much of his family, nor much of our community did. Not everyone can pull themselves out, but so, SO many never even begin to think of trying, as odd as that sounds.

So money alone isn't enough, but without it you get nowhere. People always seem to pump money in, then get frustrated at its lack of effect and give up. I'm not really sure how to address that.

Health can also create disparate outcomes. At least for me (and I come from poverty) my biggest hurdle growing up and as a young adult was a health condition that became chronic due to the fact that it wasn't diagnosed nor treated properly. I had the right attitude and work ethic, but poor health + poverty and other unfavorable factors really got in the way.

But to your point, there are ppl, that can absolutely improve with the right work ethic and attitude. And we should at least focus on getting them the help they need if they demonstrate initiative.

 

[mehc012]

Health can also create disparate outcomes. At least for me (and I come from poverty) my biggest hurdle growing up and as a young adult was a health condition that became chronic due to the fact that it wasn't diagnosed nor treated properly. I had the right attitude and work ethic, but poor health + poverty and other unfavorable factors really got in the way.

But to your point, there are ppl, that can absolutely improve with the right work ethic and attitude. And we should at least focus on getting them the help they need if they demonstrate initiative.

Oooh, good point on the health. Thank the stars my mom and I were mostly healthy, because doctor's visits were not an appealing option, budget-wise.


I agree on giving those with the drive a boost- that's where the scholarships come in.
However, I still think that the more widespread issue is instilling that sort of attitude and self-expectation in kids before they absorb the "just get by" mentality, or start seeing the "you think you're better than everyone else" attitude when they DO try. I'd like to see more people striving for those scholarships was all I was trying to get at.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Oooh, good point on the health. Thank the stars my mom and I were mostly healthy, because doctor's visits were not an appealing option, budget-wise.


I agree on giving those with the drive a boost- that's where the scholarships come in.
However, I still think that the more widespread issue is instilling that sort of attitude and self-expectation in kids before they absorb the "just get by" mentality, or start seeing the "you think you're better than everyone else" attitude when they DO try. I'd like to see more people striving for those scholarships was all I was trying to get at.

Yup. Those cultural issues absolutely must be addressed. But much of this involves taking kids out of negative environments. A lot of them go home everyday to harmful and negligent parents, etc. That's where a lot of these habits come from. How can schools and others tell kids to basically avoid their parents and other family members?! Many of these kids are used to visiting family members (and in some cases siblings) in prison. So practically speaking, they have to keep a distance in order to improve. I think that's what makes it really tough in a lot of cases.

 

[LMBLBM]

Well it is all about efficient use of time, and money increases efficiency in many many ways.

spending time while comparing prices of items at a grocery store, endless searching to get the best deal on everything even for a potato, spending weekends doing household chores and maintenance instead of resting and etc. So difficult to focus on your goal and dream, when you have multiple things to worry about. I personally respect successful people who were socioeconomically disadvantaged.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

What does "wealthy upper middle class" mean? Kind of have to be one or the other.

 

[mehc012]

Yup. Those cultural issues absolutely must be addressed. But much of this involves taking kids out of negative environments. A lot of them go home everyday to harmful and negligent parents, etc. That's where a lot of these habits come from. How can schools and others tell kids to basically avoid their parents and other family members?! Many of these kids are used to visiting family members (and in some cases siblings) in prison. So practically speaking, they have to keep a distance in order to improve. I think that's what makes it really tough in a lot of cases.

But, see, it's SO MUCH more subtle than just straight-up negative environments. I mean, clearly those are a factor as well. But the number of people I saw in HS who would actually get called out for trying to better themselves - as if by doing so they were expressing superiority over their peers/family - sometimes, it is not negligence that makes it difficult, but rather respect. "My dad didn't need fancy college, why do I?" and all that. Or even "my mom is an amazing person and works really hard, but school was too hard for her so why should I even try, I'm just not like those other kids". There were kids in my school who pretended not to have done their work and then snuck in after school to hand in hw because there was so much peer pressure not to try in school. It goes deeper than the blatantly negative situations. (I'm still agreeing with you, btw, just elaborating. Adding this in case it isn't clear because, well, internet.)

 

[mehc012]

What does "wealthy upper middle class" mean? Kind of have to be one or the other.

Upper middle class vs lower middle class is definitely a thing...and many, many people consider upper middle class to be wealthy. They're not contradictions, per se, so much as redundancies.

 

[Lambda Phage]

Suck it, 18.7% of people poorer than me! Leeches on society, all of you...

 

[mehc012]

Suck it, 18.7% of people poorer than me! Leeches on society, all of you...

Says the phage...why doncha learn to reproduce with your own machinery, you good-for-nothing parasite!

 

[Beargryllz]

$200k? What is this? A poll for poor people?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

But, see, it's SO MUCH more subtle than just straight-up negative environments. I mean, clearly those are a factor as well. But the number of people I saw in HS who would actually get called out for trying to better themselves - as if by doing so they were expressing superiority over their peers/family - sometimes, it is not negligence that makes it difficult, but rather respect. "My dad didn't need fancy college, why do I?" and all that. Or even "my mom is an amazing person and works really hard, but school was too hard for her so why should I even try, I'm just not like those other kids". There were kids in my school who pretended not to have done their work and then snuck in after school to hand in hw because there was so much peer pressure not to try in school. It goes deeper than the blatantly negative situations. (I'm still agreeing with you, btw, just elaborating. Adding this in case it isn't clear because, well, internet.)

You mean you're not capable of expressing an all encompassing solution to these problems in 1 or 2 posts?! Really?! (JK in case you didn't grasp my attempt at internet humor ).

The examples you brought up are actually sad. And it'd be nice if ppl could see a more successful and better educated version of themselves in the future. Sort of like Galadriel's Mirror from The Lord of the Rings. Maybe that would help.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

$200k? What is this? A poll for poor people?

Haha, I was going to point out that the poll is a little low if we wanted to include "wealthy" families. A poll that wants to see how many high earning families there are probably shouldn't include 5 figures combinded incomes as the majority of options (not to say those aren't solid incomes).

 

[mehc012]

You mean you're not capable of expressing an all encompassing solution to these problems in 1 or 2 posts?! Really?! (JK in case you didn't grasp my attempt at internet humor ).

The examples you brought up are actually sad. And it'd be nice if ppl could see a more successful and better educated version of themselves in the future. Sort of like Galadriel's Mirror from The Lord of the Rings. Maybe that would help.
View attachment 184007

Somehow I don't think betrayal, power corrupting your future self, or the razing of the Shire would be inspirational to many
I jest, I jest...and I take your point!

Welp, I think we've been sufficiently depressing for the night...at least my MCAT woes seem a bit more trivial now!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Somehow I don't think betrayal, power corrupting your future self, or the razing of the Shire would be inspirational to many
I jest, I jest...and I take your point!

Welp, I think we've been sufficiently depressing for the night...at least my MCAT woes seem a bit more trivial now!

LOL, I forgot about the actual scenarios that Galdriel demonstrated

Hope your MCAT woes are only temporary!

 

[maxilofacial]

Where is the 10M+ option?

 

[allantois]

Where is the 10M+ option?

I have a suspicion that parents who make that kind of money wouldn't even want their kids to pursue medicine.

 

[MrLogan13]

Upper middle class is not wealthy. Just saying.

 

[mehc012]

Upper middle class is not wealthy. Just saying.

...from your perspective. C'mon guys, are we really going to quibble over a subjective term such as 'wealthy', when there are URM threads and MD vs DO somewhere out there, waiting to be found?

 

[Leslie_Knope]

All those saying upper middle class is not wealthy are proving the point of this thread.

I grew up upper middle class. As a broke non-trad, I would love to simply be "middle class," financially speaking.

 

[DermViser]

Yes, it is, and you shouldn't be surprised one bit.

 

[demayette]

What type of family income is upper middle class? 150k in D.C. is not the same as 150k in Punta Gorda, FL.

 

[mehc012]

What type of family income is upper middle class? 150k in D.C. is not the same as 150k in Punta Gorda, FL.

It's a vague, poorly defined term, which is only marginally out-vagued by the word 'wealthy'. Naturally, this thread seems to be gearing up to have it out over the fact that different people fall at different points on the 'shades of grey' spectrum.

 

[allantois]

What type of family income is upper middle class? 150k in D.C. is not the same as 150k in Punta Gorda, FL.

Such a random city lol

Household income of over $200,000 will put a family in top 4-5 percent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States

Yeah, I know nobody was able to convince me that Wikipedia is an unreliable source ...

 

[aklark]

Question 28:

https://www.aamc.org/download/363478/data/msq2013report.pdf

 

[demayette]

Such a random city lol

Household income of over $200,000 will put a family in top 4-5 percent

I will come up with my own scale :

A family making:

< 60k ----------------------poor
60k---119k -----------------------lower middle class
120k--199k-----------------------mid middle class (lol)
200k-399k-----------------------upper middle class
400k-999k ----------------------wealthy
1+ mil-----------------------filthy rich

 

[mehc012]

Question 28:

https://www.aamc.org/download/363478/data/msq2013report.pdf

Holy...that is depressing. DEPRESSING.

 

[allantois]

Question 28:

https://www.aamc.org/download/363478/data/msq2013report.pdf

You meant Question 33

Year of 2013 (%)
Less than $25,000 7.1
$25,000 to $49,999 8.6
$50,000 to $74,999 11.9
$75,000 to $99,999 9.7
$100,000 to $149,999 19.6
$150,000 to $199,999 11.6
$200,000 to $249,999 10.2
$250,000 to $299,999 5.3
$300,000 to $399,999 6.5
$400,000 to $499,999 3.3
$500,000 or more 5.9 6.1

Median income of parents of those providing figures $120,000


PS What's more puzzling to me is why so many students (7.5%) want to do Orthopedic Surgery (Question 26)

 

[mehc012]

I will come up with my own scale :

A family making:

< 60k ----------------------poor
60k---119k -----------------------lower middle class
120k--199k-----------------------mid middle class (lol)
200k-399k-----------------------upper middle class
400k-999k ----------------------wealthy
1+ mil-----------------------filthy rich

And here's mine:
< 20k ----------------------poor
20k---30k------------------------lower class
30k---60k -----------------------lower middle class
60k--80k-----------------------mid middle class (lol)
80k-200k-----------------------upper middle class
200k-300k ----------------------upper class
300k-500k------------------------rich
500k-1mil-----------------------filthy rich
1mil+-----------------------------obscenely wealthy

A bit different.
Wealthy would probably encompass everything upper middle class and up in mine.


Note: for me, these are 1-person salaries for a family of 2-3.
Note2: if anything, the boundary between 'upper middle' and 'upper' would shift down to 120 or 150k. That region is pretty poorly defined, mostly because at that point it's largely a wash.

 

[demayette]

You meant Question 33

Year of 2013 (%)
$500,000 or more 5.9 6.1

Median income of parents of those providing figures $120,000
PS What's more puzzling to me is why so many students (7.5%) want to do Orthopedic Surgery (Question 26)

Why is that puzzling to you? Most med students want money, lifestyle and prestige...

 

[aklark]

You meant Question 33

Year of 2013 (%)
Less than $25,000 7.1
$25,000 to $49,999 8.6
$50,000 to $74,999 11.9
$75,000 to $99,999 9.7
$100,000 to $149,999 19.6
$150,000 to $199,999 11.6
$200,000 to $249,999 10.2
$250,000 to $299,999 5.3
$300,000 to $399,999 6.5
$400,000 to $499,999 3.3
$500,000 or more 5.9 6.1

Median income of parents of those providing figures $120,000


PS What's more puzzling to me is why so many students (7.5%) want to do Orthopedic Surgery (Question 26)

Good catch....just scrolled until I saw large numbers...

I just did two days worth of Insanity, so lucky to still be upright.

 

[looncat]

I will come up with my own scale :

A family making:

< 60k ----------------------poor
60k---119k -----------------------lower middle class
120k--199k-----------------------mid middle class (lol)
200k-399k-----------------------upper middle class
400k-999k ----------------------wealthy
1+ mil-----------------------filthy rich

Damn, you've got some real skewed numbers there. You can't just define what middle class is based on what you believe to be rich is, just take a look at the census posted above.

 

[DermViser]

PS What's more puzzling to me is why so many students (7.5%) want to do Orthopedic Surgery (Question 26)

You're kidding, right?

 

[allantois]

You're kidding, right?

No, surgery just doesn't sound very attractive

I'm aware of their compensation

 

[compstomper]

The average US household income is 51k. Almost 60% of medical students have family incomes of over 100k. Over 30% of medical students have family incomes of over 200k. That's 4x the average US household income.

Talk about diversity.

 

[aklark]

The average US household income is 51k. Almost 60% of medical students have family incomes of over 100k. Over 30% of medical students have family incomes of over 200k. That's 4x the average US household income.

Talk about diversity.

Recent article on KevinMD about this. What I found most surprising was the number of comments dismissing this sort of diversity.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/07/lack-socioeconomic-diversity-medicine.html

 

[allantois]

The average US household income is 51k. Almost 60% of medical students have family incomes of over 100k. Over 30% of medical students have family incomes of over 200k. That's 4x the average US household income.

Talk about diversity.

That's why med schools should consider socioeconomic status instead of URM status.

No surprise that average debt of med school graduates makes no sense when you look at the tuition costs.

 

[DermViser]

Recent article on KevinMD about this. What I found most surprising was the number of comments dismissing this sort of diversity.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/07/lack-socioeconomic-diversity-medicine.html

A lot of them probably went to med school when it was dirt cheap.

 

[Law2Doc]

You guys do realize that this isn't really just med school related. Children of the more well off are far more likely to get advanced education in pretty much any field. Med school, law school, dental school, doctorates in anything. It starts very early -- if you are sent off to a private high school you are more likely going to have peer pressure to get into a good college than the guy who goes to a Public high school with a 20% drop out rate, and so on. I don't think the establishment can fix this -- it has to come from within each community. The opportunity for higher education is often there, through aid and loans, but the push from family, peers often isn't. If you aren't from a rich family, getting ahead often requires sacrifices from family members who aren't, and that's not a universal value shared throughout our society.

 

[Beargryllz]

PS What's more puzzling to me is why so many students (7.5%) want to do Orthopedic Surgery (Question 26)

Sounds low to me

But to solve your puzzle, first I have to ask if you've ever sat in for a surgery. Because they're pretty awesome.

 

[Kochanie]

I was surprised how high I fell on this, but my mom does work 16+ hours a day.

 

[DocMcMommy]

I grew up in a very unwealthy household. Personally, I think ignorance is a large factor with kids in these situations not persuing higher education. No one in my family has gone to college, no one in my high school spoke to me about my options. I legitimately thought that college was for those with money and that my biggest success in life would be getting a job at a call center (as opposed to fast food or retail) and having lots and lots of kids. I have always been intrigued by science and dreamed of being a doctor, but without support it was a process I didn't even know how to begin. Consequently, I've made a lot of mistakes and missteps, stumbling to figure things out.

Many of the people I grew up around have similar financial backgrounds and received less support and information during school. These people have gone on to marry young, have children, and struggle going from one job to the next. Those that I knew who were better off have recently graduated from college and one of them is even about to start dental school (yay! :] ).

I think a more active effort in supplying lower income students and families with knowledge about the resources available to them would go a long way.