Is starting medicine at 30 worth it?

[fan14]

I figured residents would be the best to ask this question, because you are in the thick of it and give reflections on where you feel things are going / future of medicine / hope of meeting your initial goals etc.

About me:
I'm close to 30 and have been working in another health care profession for about 6 years now. I have a steady good paying job. I feel very limited by scope of practice in my field, what I do makes a difference but I cannot go above and beyond even when I see errors or question something. My dream of medicine is composed of different things a) an original dream I had in undergrad (didn't get in then) and the dream didn't die b) I feel like MD will open more doors and opportunities for me to influence public health / do more meaningful research c) I feel MD will allow me to have a broader knowledge and ability to help my patients etc.. d) frustration at times with how patients are cared for. Maybe I have a somewhat naive belief that I could actually be the type of MD who wants to get to the bottom of the problem instead of just treating symptoms (like I see many do).

Right now I feel like a middle ground person, under appreciated by the medical world, I have a knowledge in my field which is under utilized because of limitations in scope / generally how the health care system is tiered with MDs at the top.

My question is, is medicine worth it? at this age?

My concerns:
1. I basically finish school and residence at the age of like 36-38. I give up a good steady well paying job to chase a dream.
2. I overhear residents all day at work, complain about not being able to find jobs after slaving in residency and fellowship. Complaints of divorce and rusted relationships due to work hours and lack of flexibility.

I don't want to sound like a complete downer, I may have had a week of some negative comments from current students/residents. I know there are amazing parts to medicine too and amazing doctors who have a real passion for their field and desire to teach others. I've seen some amazing MD-patient interactions in my career.


Is it worth it? Is the MD really a door-opener to being able to introduce real change in terms of individual and public health?

Thanks for the feedback!

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[Perrotfish]

I figured residents would be the best to ask this question, because you are in the thick of it and give reflections on where you feel things are going / future of medicine / hope of meeting your initial goals etc.

About me:
I'm close to 30 and have been working in another health care profession for about 6 years now. I have a steady good paying job. I feel very limited by scope of practice in my field, what I do makes a difference but I cannot go above and beyond even when I see errors or question something. My dream of medicine is composed of different things a) an original dream I had in undergrad (didn't get in then) and the dream didn't die b) I feel like MD will open more doors and opportunities for me to influence public health / do more meaningful research c) I feel MD will allow me to have a broader knowledge and ability to help my patients etc.. d) frustration at times with how patients are cared for. Maybe I have a somewhat naive belief that I could actually be the type of MD who wants to get to the bottom of the problem instead of just treating symptoms (like I see many do).

Right now I feel like a middle ground person, under appreciated by the medical world, I have a knowledge in my field which is under utilized because of limitations in scope / generally how the health care system is tiered with MDs at the top.

My question is, is medicine worth it? at this age?

My concerns:
1. I basically finish school and residence at the age of like 36-38. I give up a good steady well paying job to chase a dream.
2. I overhear residents all day at work, complain about not being able to find jobs after slaving in residency and fellowship. Complaints of divorce and rusted relationships due to work hours and lack of flexibility.

I don't want to sound like a complete downer, I may have had a week of some negative comments from current students/residents. I know there are amazing parts to medicine too and amazing doctors who have a real passion for their field and desire to teach others. I've seen some amazing MD-patient interactions in my career.


Is it worth it? Is the MD really a door-opener to being able to introduce real change in terms of individual and public health?

Thanks for the feedback!

Questions that will help us provide more meaningful feedback?

1) Where are you at in terms of your education? Have you taken the premedical prereqs?

2) What health profession are you in?

3) What medical environments have you worked in? (labor deck vs pathology vs cath lab vs clinic etc)

4) What have you done so far to determine if an MD is right for you?

5) Do you have a spouse? If so what does he/she do for a living?

6) Do you have children? If so how old are they?

7) Do you have a strong attachment to the area you currently live in? Would you have a problem moving away from that area?

 

[fan14]

Questions that will help us provide more meaningful feedback?

1) Where are you at in terms of your education? Have you taken the premedical prereqs?

2) What health profession are you in?

3) What medical environments have you worked in? (labor deck vs pathology vs cath lab vs clinic etc)

4) What have you done so far to determine if an MD is right for you?

5) Do you have a spouse? If so what does he/she do for a living?

6) Do you have children? If so how old are they?

7) Do you have a strong attachment to the area you currently live in? Would you have a problem moving away from that area?

I generally don't like to give very personal details online anywhere but to answer this globally, I work in direct patient care. I honestly have had the chance to cover contracts from 3 months to two years duration across many surgical, critical care, and cancer settings. I have all the prerequisit courses needed, just need to do the MCAT (did it once too many years ago in undergrad). Would prefer within a decent commute to my current location as family is nearby. No kids of my own yet and don't want to be too old for them.

What really really conflicts me: on one hand I imagine doctors as being some very knowledgeable people who can see a pt present with something and get to the actual root of the problem looking at things holistically; on the other hand I get mixed reviews from residents who complain about how constrained they are, and are sooo busy that they just spit out orders and meds based on their little residency handbooks and could care less about being the person who analyzes someone completely and takes the extra time to find the real cause of their illness. I really wonder between medicine to gain the skills and knowledge to give more to people, to "heal" and be a doctor; or if this is unrealistic view, given what medicine has become with the caseload/lack of patient time/paper work/formalities etc. (will I really be the person to provide this amazing care I envision when I too will have the constraints that doctors face today).

 

[fan14]

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[Perrotfish]

I generally don't like to give very personal details online anywhere but to answer this globally, I work in direct patient care. I honestly have had the chance to cover contracts from 3 months to two years duration across many surgical, critical care, and cancer settings. I have all the prerequisit courses needed, just need to do the MCAT (did it once too many years ago in undergrad). Would prefer within a decent commute to my current location as family is nearby. No kids of my own yet and don't want to be too old for them.

While you are older than the average medical student, at 30 you are not nearly old enough to be afraid of sharing completely unidentifiable information like 'I'm a nurse' or 'yes I'm married' on the internet

Anyway, to try to answer a few of the more generic questions.

1) Medical school is a very expensive process and residency is a very demeaning one, and both consume almost all your free time. Your residents are right to complain about it. Unless you work in a path lab they are not correct to complain about not finding jobs. That's not happening to anyone other than the pathologists, at least not yet, assuming you live in the US.

2) Medical school means moving. A few people are lucky and get to stay local but the vast majority of us have to move for medical school and then have to move again for residency. Almost half will need to move again for fellowship, and then there's a good chance that you're going to want to move for your first job.

3) You cannot possibly finish at 36 if you are 30 now. Medical school is a minimum of 4 years and the absolute shortest residency is 3 more, and the application cycle takes a minimum of a year and starts next June.

4) Yes there are opportunities for physicians to do research, work in public health, and solve patient problems. There are opportunities for other professions to do those things as well, though.

Its really hard to give you any other perspective on the relative satisfaction of your job vs a medical career if you don't want to share anything about your job.

 

[fan14]

While you are older than the average medical student, at 30 you are not nearly old enough to be afraid of sharing completely unidentifiable information like 'I'm a nurse' or 'yes I'm married' on the internet

Anyway, to try to answer a few of the more generic questions.

1) Medical school is a very expensive process and residency is a very demeaning one, and both consume almost all your free time. Your residents are right to complain about it. Unless you work in a path lab they are not correct to complain about not finding jobs. That's not happening to anyone other than the pathologists, at least not yet, assuming you live in the US.

2) Medical school means moving. A few people are lucky and get to stay local but the vast majority of us have to move for medical school and then have to move again for residency. Almost half will need to move again for fellowship, and then there's a good chance that you're going to want to move for your first job.

3) You cannot possibly finish at 36 if you are 30 now. Medical school is a minimum of 4 years and the absolute shortest residency is 3 more.

4) Yes there are opportunities for physicians to do research, work in public health, and solve patient problems. There are opportunities for other professions to do those things as well, though.

Its really hard to give you any other perspective on the relative satisfaction of your job vs a medical career if you don't want to share anything about your job.

thanks for the feedback!

i think the job i have be it nursing, SLP, PT, RT is irrelevant. All are awesome jobs, and I have a full-time steady permanent job which provides me enough money to live in a downtown condo. THis job like all others is very limited in scope to a specific area of practice. So I guess I'm looking at medicine as an answer to being able to have the full possible scope to provide diagnosis and treatment.
I guess what I struggle with is, are MDs really doing what they initially thought they would be doing? Is medicine really satisfying and do you feel like you can do your possible best for your patient; or do the constraints in health care really prevent you from doing the best.
The thing I fear is going into this process with amazing intentions to find that I cannot fulfill them and I might as well have stayed a PT/RN/NP/RT and done the best in my own narrow scope.

 

[fan14]

Maybe I will ask a couple of my own questions:
1. Do you feel like you are really able to treat and heal holistically? In terms of the specialties in medicine, if you come across a problem or finding in a body system outside your specialty, are you allowed to comment? This is one thing I notice that bothers me; say you are an ICU specialist and your pt develops or has some new cardiac issue discovered. By law, you must contact cardiology or CV specialty correct? are you allowed to diagnose and treat in another specialty? or do doctor's not do that because they feel uncomfortable or that they lack knowledge? what if you disagree?
2. Do you fear any negative changes to medicine in the future? Lack of jobs? Primary care heading in the direction of NPs instead of MDs?
3. In general, when current MDs reflect on where they are, would they do it all over again?

Anyway, thanks for any feedback! I enjoy hearing the perspective of people who have gone through the process.

 

[Perrotfish]

thanks for the feedback!

i think the job i have be it nursing, SLP, PT, RT is irrelevant. All are awesome jobs, and I have a full-time steady permanent job which provides me enough money to live in a downtown condo. THis job like all others is very limited in scope to a specific area of practice. So I guess I'm looking at medicine as an answer to being able to have the full possible scope to provide diagnosis and treatment.
I guess what I struggle with is, are MDs really doing what they initially thought they would be doing? Is medicine really satisfying and do you feel like you can do your possible best for your patient; or do the constraints in health care really prevent you from doing the best.
The thing I fear is going into this process with amazing intentions to find that I cannot fulfill them and I might as well have stayed a PT/RN/NP/RT and done the best in my own narrow scope.

The job is relevant because

1) It gives me a good idea of how good your perspective on medicine actually is. If you're an NP I would guess you have a much stronger grasp of what medicine is like than if you were an RT.

2) If give me a perspective about your options. If you're an RN the natural question is: why not NP/PA? If you're a PT then your options are pretty much MD... or PT.

 

[Doctor Bob]

1. Do you feel like you are really able to treat and heal holistically? In terms of the specialties in medicine, if you come across a problem or finding in a body system outside your specialty, are you allowed to comment? This is one thing I notice that bothers me; say you are an ICU specialist and your pt develops or has some new cardiac issue discovered. By law, you must contact cardiology or CV specialty correct? are you allowed to diagnose and treat in another specialty? or do doctor's not do that because they feel uncomfortable or that they lack knowledge? what if you disagree?

There is no "by law". Perhaps "by convention" or "by comfort level"...
Every specialty has a scope of practice. You can do whatever you like within your scope. Specialists often narrow their scope intentionally (cardiologists start as internal medicine doctor, then focus down, but still have the scope of an internist).

If someone is admitted to my ICU and I'm their doctor. I may consult other specialties for their input if its a problem I don't know how to fix. But if they recommend something I don't agree with, I don't do it. At the end of the day the responsibility for the outcome of the patient is on me.

 

[Law2Doc]

When someone uses the phrase "worth it" and then emphasizes twice that they already have a. "good paying job" I have to worry that at least part of the motivation behind the question is financial. If what you are really asking is 'if I make a Career change from X to doctor at thirty will I make bank?", I think the answer is it's hard to say. Things change quickly in this field, and honestly the midlevel crowd is probably positioned to reap the benefits of the next few decades better then doctors. You will assume a mountain of debt and hope there's a better job at the other end that will be tough to outweigh the benefit of being employed for a decade.

If you are asking will you still have frustrations as a Doctor in terms of autonomy the answer is absolutely, and for sure for the next decade as you study and train and time won't be your own.

 

[Perrotfish]

Maybe I will ask a couple of my own questions:
1. Do you feel like you are really able to treat and heal holistically? In terms of the specialties in medicine, if you come across a problem or finding in a body system outside your specialty, are you allowed to comment? This is one thing I notice that bothers me; say you are an ICU specialist and your pt develops or has some new cardiac issue discovered. By law, you must contact cardiology or CV specialty correct? are you allowed to diagnose and treat in another specialty? or do doctor's not do that because they feel uncomfortable or that they lack knowledge? what if you disagree?
2. Do you fear any negative changes to medicine in the future? Lack of jobs? Primary care heading in the direction of NPs instead of MDs?
3. In general, when current MDs reflect on where they are, would they do it all over again?

Anyway, thanks for any feedback! I enjoy hearing the perspective of people who have gone through the process.

1) Legally a licensed physician (someone who has completed medical school and a 1 year Internship) can practice the entire spectrum of medicine. As partially trained Pediatric resident I can perform unsupervised neurosurgery and its not actually illegal (though it would almost definitely qualify as malpractice). The problem is definitely the second thing you said: you can only really feel competent doing what you've been trained to do. As a generalist I feel comfortable addressing a lot of medical issues, but there are definitely things that can go wrong with every organ system where I'm not really trained to do anything more complex than call specialist.

That's not what most people mean, though, when they talk about feeling frustrated by medicine. I've never met the Pediatrician who felt frustrated because he couldn't perform heart surgery. People get frustrated when they feel they are constrained by time and money. A pretty common scenario: I have a 13 year old patient walk in with flu, I also notice without prying too deeply that he is using his albuterol inhaler daily and isn't using his flovent inhaler at all, has uncontrolled acne, is morbidly obese, is demonstrating impulsive behaviors in the room, and has no insurance. The appointment is 15 minutes long and I know he won't follow up for financial reasons. All I can do is treat the flu, maybe council them on the asthma and maybe give them something for the acne. Its a reality of medicine but its frustrating.

2) I could imagine a future where our jobs were largely automated and could be performed by technicians with less than a college degree. I can imagine a future where a flood of midlevel graduates and/or relaxed licensing standards destroy the market for physicians and depress our salaries below the level needed to pay for our obscene student debts. I can imagine a future where socialized medicine tries to control costs by depressing wages and destroying our salaries.

I can also imagine a future where medicine does very well. I can imagine developing technologies dramatically increasing demand for our profession vs a fixed supply. I can imagine a future where medical treatment returns to a largely cash market. I can imagine a future where we win legislative victories and again become real supervisors of midlevels.

I don't really know, neither does anyone else. If I knew I would be borrowing money and putting it in a healthcare sector index/short fund and getting rich without ever having to be a doctor.

3) About 50% say no in polls. At the end of residency I honestly don't know. This training process has sucked, its trapped everyone I know under mountains of debt, and the job, though good, doesn't seem like it was worth losing contact with all of my friends and moving to two completely random places, and flushing 5 years of my life down medical school clinical rotations and the residency training process. Of course, if I had stayed an engineer I would be just finishing 7 years of well paid well appreciated employment and would be just hitting the age where engineers start having serious job security issues, so my anxiety would be beginning and not ending. I don't know.

BTW with the questions you are asking I am getting the sense that you really need to shadow some physicians as a premed, rather than as someone who does whatever it is you do. You might get a better sense for what we do.

 

[PistolPete]

I wouldn't do it. Medical education is a beast. Stick to your well paying job unless you absolutely hate it. By the time you'd be done you'd be 37 at minimum with another 250k in debt, unless you have that much saved already. These days NP/PA can essentially do the same thing as a physician with good pay, much less debt, much less time investment.

 

[alwaysastudent2]

Absolutely No.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'll echo the above posters.

If you're an NP/PA, for god's sake stay where you are. You're poised to make out like a bandit when you consider the effort and money involved for your training vs ours.

If you're a nurse, PT assistant etc or something, finish the next degree up and become an NP, DPT, whatever.

As at least one person has stated above, this training sucks monkey nuts. That said, even though the time commitment was huge, I didn't mind medical school so much - I actually rather enjoyed most of it. But residency simply is 'the suck', as in all other aspects of your life that you cherish will get sucked into the massive vortex that is graduate medical education. I have zero free time. As for the busy residents you heard from - 100% true. Get ready to work, and work, and work, and work, and then work some ****ing more. They will browbeat you for not reading, but basically work the daylights out of you and then wonder why you didn't read. I'm living 400 miles away from my spouse and kids because they didn't want to move for residency and I didn't match where they were. The debt sucks. I'm broke as ****. My marriage was driven to the brink by the end of medical school and remains on very rocky ground to this day.

I love what I do and always wanted to be a doctor, but the 'is this really worth it' question increasingly looms larger and larger daily. If you're relatively satisfied with what you're doing and 'making good money', then dear ****ing god don't do this to yourself. The training will definitely exact its pound of flesh.

Given some of the questions you're asking, it doesn't sound like you're on the level of an NP/PA and you my not be familiar with what we actually do. You need to shadow doctors before you make any decision.

 

[Call Me Dr.]

I don't think that you're particularly old for starting the process. I will finish fellowship by 40 and am in good company. Your age is only relevant in that it dictates your maximum years of earning potential. Doctors are like pro athletes - long, underpaid training years and then a short period of earning like the pros.

If your goal is to make a bigger contribution/conduct more meaningful research, then I would advise you to consider alternative career paths, like public administration or public health. I was working in health services research when I decided to go to medical school (more than a decade ago!). My boss was an MD who was on a K award at the time (75% research time). He didn't speak to me for weeks when I told him I was going to apply to medical school. He said that I would be wasting my time and brain and that medicine isn't challenging enough to keep me happy. More than a decade of my life has gone into medical training, I've accrued tremendous medical debt, and I move every few years for the next step in my career with little say in the matter. And I'm just now back to where I would have been if I had stayed in my prior life for a few years. Boy, was he right! I don't regret the path that I've taken and I love my clinical work. But I also feel like my clinical work limits my ability to do work that actually makes a bigger contribution. I'm working towards a K award to cut me down to 25% clinical time and I'm giving the same advice he did . . .

 

[deleted92121]

I somewhat identify with the OP being 29 y/o and getting ready for medical school after years in healthcare (paramedic).

So here is a question I have always wanted to ask.

Do you (residents, attendings) think working prior to medical school/residency in a field that is NOT entry-level (entry level being retail, fast food, etc) makes medical training more palatable?

I ask because I have busted my butt for 60+ hours a week working as a paramedic while obtaining my undergraduate degree over the past ten years. There is no way I can fully understand medical education but I do know what it is like to survive on little sleep, long shifts, poor diet, and so on. I understand how frustrating treating patients can be at times.

Is it possible that those with experience as a nurse, paramedic, investment banker, lawyer, IT, or similar will have an easier time dealing with the non-medical stresses related to medical training?

Additionally, is it possible that medical students/residents who have not worked anything more than entry-level jobs before their medical training are more likely to be overwhelmed by the amount of work required of them?

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I somewhat identify with the OP being 29 y/o and getting ready for medical school after years in healthcare (paramedic).

So here is a question I have always wanted to ask.

Do you (residents, attendings) think working prior to medical school/residency in a field that is NOT entry-level (entry level being retail, fast food, etc) makes medical training more palatable?

I ask because I have busted my butt for 60+ hours a week working as a paramedic while obtaining my undergraduate degree over the past ten years. There is no way I can fully understand medical education but I do know what it is like to survive on little sleep, long shifts, poor diet, and so on. I understand how frustrating treating patients can be at times.

Is it possible that those with experience as a nurse, paramedic, investment banker, lawyer, IT, or similar will have an easier time dealing with the non-medical stresses related to medical training?

Additionally, is it possible that medical students/residents who have not worked anything more than entry-level jobs before their medical training are more likely to be overwhelmed by the amount of work required of them?

I know that I work a hell of a lot harder now than my friends do in any of the careers you have cited above. Maybe investment bankers and biglaw lawyers know what this is like, but everyone else I talk to is on an entirely different plane with regards to work time expectations (omg my 50 hour week sucked so bad!)

 

[deleted92121]

I know that I work a hell of a lot harder now than my friends do in any of the careers you have cited above.

And I believe that. That's certainly not a question though.

I think having a legitimate job or career before medical education could give a different perspective though.

 

[gutonc]

And I believe that. That's certainly not a question though.

I think having a legitimate job or career before medical education could give a different perspective though.

Yes it will. It will give you the perspective that working 80h a week is f*****g b******t and not in any way worth the final outcome.

YMMV of course, but I doubt it.

 

[hamstergang]

As at least one person has stated above, this training sucks monkey nuts. That said, even though the time commitment was huge, I didn't mind medical school so much - I actually rather enjoyed most of it. But residency simply is 'the suck', as in all other aspects of your life that you cherish will get sucked into the massive vortex that is graduate medical education. I have zero free time. As for the busy residents you heard from - 100% true. Get ready to work, and work, and work, and work, and then work some ******* more. They will browbeat you for not reading, but basically work the daylights out of you and then wonder why you didn't read.

Posts like this make me so happy I fell in live with Psych. Residency really doesn't have to be so bad, depending on what you pick.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

I started at 27. I feel old all the time.

From a career standpoint it's a slight disadvantage since your career length is shorter, assuming you retire at the same age as your peers---less likely you'll end up dean some place. From a practice standpoint though my evaluations tend to be better. I'm the same age as most of my residents so we get along pretty well.

 

[PistolPete]

Just to add some more though to you OP, or any other pre-meds or others who may be reading this thread: would I do medicine if I could go back? No. But then, if I put myself in the mindset that I was in in college, I'm not sure what else I would pick. Few careers give you an essentially 100% job security rate once done with residency and with such good pay, and coming from a poor background, this was too good to pass up. Sure, the sacrifice is intense and awful, but the return is still decent.

What else would I do? Pilot? Job too unstable and declining salaries. Lawyer? Money and job security not good unless you graduate from top 5 law school these days. MBA? Would hate traveling all the time and money not good. Engineering? Was never too interested in computers and not good enough at physics and calculus.

I'd probably become a PA and earn my 100k/year after 2-3 years after college and minimal loans. I definitely envy the PA's, especially since they can switch fields multiple times if they want.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Yes it will. It will give you the perspective that working 80h a week is f*****g b******t and not in any way worth the final outcome.

YMMV of course, but I doubt it.

Agreed.

The nontrads in medical school who had previous careers usually were the ones bitching the hardest about the time commitment.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Posts like this make me so happy I fell in live with Psych. Residency really doesn't have to be so bad, depending on what you pick.

Yeah, sometimes I really regret not doing psych. I enjoyed it. It seems like my psych friends have a much better balance between service and learning, never mind the work vs the rest of their lives.

 

[pulmoblast]

I am an IMG. I started med school at 17. I am a 2nd year PCCM fellow at 29. Devoted my entire youth to medicine..tests, books, night calls ITEs, clinics, floors etc. sacrificed parties, relationships, money for medicine most of the time. My school friends are engineers/accountants/IT firms/investment bankerswith, married for 2-3 years maybe a kid or two, a house and a BMW in the driveway, paying for a vacation to the Bahamas for their parents. I drive a beat up Honda, make a pittance of a salary as a resident/fellow, half of which still goes towards stuff like board review, board exams, licensing fees, FCVS etc, not married yet, rent, have nothing to give to my parents (hard working blue collar folks) for paying for my college and tuition.

Medicine is not what folks (especially those in paramedical fields) think it it. The sacrifice and commitment required is tremendous.

Is it worth the warm feeling that you get after you defib and get ROSC, or see septic shock ARDS walk out of the MICU, or help an advanced cancer to die peacefully without CPR?

I don't know. 12 years in the medical field, this is all I have known. So I guess I will never really know. In a nutshell to the OP...don't be an idiot, you probably have a good life... Don't be a victim of the paradox of choice, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, find peace happiness and purpose in what you already do...

Just my opinion...I may be wrong


Posted using SDN Mobile

 

[wholeheartedly]

@fan14

The resident forum might not actually be the best place for this question. Quite a few residents will be over 30, but they're still going to have a different perspective than someone wanting to START at 30.

We actually have an entire forum on this site for nontraditional applicants, like people who start much later in the game. There are numerous threads dealing with whether or not it's worth it, pros and cons of being older, financial issues, managing pre-reqs or the MCAT while working, selling your previous work experience, having/starting a family, and a whole host of other things.

But there a some pretty good was it worth threads that you should definitely check out.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/nontraditional-students.110/

 

[Law2Doc]

Agreed.

The nontrads in medical school who had previous careers usually were the ones bitching the hardest about the time commitment.

That's not been my experience -- I question what previous "careers" you are lumping into this group. It's those traditional students who are still trying to do the bar/club scenes and hang with their 9-5 job friends who really tend to fret the hours. The person who worked most weekends in his prior career tends not to sweat this one.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Whatever. They were people with legitimate careers that you would appreciate.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

Thank you to all the residents for your input and to the OP for asking good questions. The " is it worth it?" is something I think about all the time too. And I've heard if you have to ask that question then it probably isn't worth it. But I feel with me I rarely follow my heart blindly, it usually comes down to a rational cost/benefits analysis with anything I do. All I know is working as a Medical Technologist in the lab is getting really boring. The only thing I enjoy is when we get interesting cases, but since all I can do is the testing and microscopy, I can't suggest possible diagnosis to investigate or tests to order even if i have a good idea what it is. I think I would be equally happy as a PA or MD/DO. Funny thing is I think it's harder to get into PA school than Med School in terms of the numbers applying.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thank you to all the residents for your input and to the OP for asking good questions. The " is it worth it?" is something I think about all the time too. And I've heard if you have to ask that question then it probably isn't worth it. But I feel with me I rarely follow my heart blindly, it usually comes down to a rational cost/benefits analysis with anything I do. All I know is working as a Medical Technologist in the lab is getting really boring. The only thing I enjoy is when we get interesting cases, but since all I can do is the testing and microscopy, I can't suggest possible diagnosis to investigate or tests to order even if i have a good idea what it is. I think I would be equally happy as a PA or MD/DO. Funny thing is I think it's harder to get into PA school than Med School in terms of the numbers applying.

1. Even as a doctor probably the "only thing you'll enjoy is when we get interesting cases" too -- this isn't a unique phenomenon to your job.
2. It's not harder to get into PA school by any actual metric, I have no clue how you are coming to that conclusion.
3. I totally agree that if you are asking "is it worth it" then it probably isn't for you. If someone has to sell you on being a doctor that's a Problem because they aren't going to be there giving you a pep talk at 3 am on call when you are looking at Facebook pages of friends with lives outside of the hospital. This has to be something you really want deep in your bones, not a cost benefit analysis.

 

[sluggs]

At age 36 I left a job that paid better than medicine. I finished my MD at 40, residency at 43, fellowship at 45 and I could not be happier. I fyou want it and understand the pitfalls it is worth it!

 

[Goro]

Some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I just graduated one at 50.

I figured residents would be the best to ask this question, because you are in the thick of it and give reflections on where you feel things are going / future of medicine / hope of meeting your initial goals etc.

About me:
I'm close to 30 and have been working in another health care profession for about 6 years now. I have a steady good paying job. I feel very limited by scope of practice in my field, what I do makes a difference but I cannot go above and beyond even when I see errors or question something. My dream of medicine is composed of different things a) an original dream I had in undergrad (didn't get in then) and the dream didn't die b) I feel like MD will open more doors and opportunities for me to influence public health / do more meaningful research c) I feel MD will allow me to have a broader knowledge and ability to help my patients etc.. d) frustration at times with how patients are cared for. Maybe I have a somewhat naive belief that I could actually be the type of MD who wants to get to the bottom of the problem instead of just treating symptoms (like I see many do).

Right now I feel like a middle ground person, under appreciated by the medical world, I have a knowledge in my field which is under utilized because of limitations in scope / generally how the health care system is tiered with MDs at the top.

My question is, is medicine worth it? at this age?

My concerns:
1. I basically finish school and residence at the age of like 36-38. I give up a good steady well paying job to chase a dream.
2. I overhear residents all day at work, complain about not being able to find jobs after slaving in residency and fellowship. Complaints of divorce and rusted relationships due to work hours and lack of flexibility.

I don't want to sound like a complete downer, I may have had a week of some negative comments from current students/residents. I know there are amazing parts to medicine too and amazing doctors who have a real passion for their field and desire to teach others. I've seen some amazing MD-patient interactions in my career.


Is it worth it? Is the MD really a door-opener to being able to introduce real change in terms of individual and public health?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[jl lin]

Agreed.

The nontrads in medical school who had previous careers usually were the ones bitching the hardest about the time commitment.

Seriously? I could see them feeling badly re: the loss of income they were making. But really isn't residency more or less like a mixture of learning and volunteer work, only with a stipend? I guess the big difference being the rigorous evaluations through the process. My point is, perhaps it should be like you go in thinking along the lines of mission/volunteer work, learning/being evaluated, and, again, a stipend. Stipend is not the same as a true, median, base salary with the potential for significant upward increases.

Anyway, why would nontrads bitch about the time commitment? Do you mean overall process or the required hours in residency? If the later, um, many non-trads know what it is like to work 70+ hours per week, which is different from most 21/22 year olds just out of college. Point being: we know how to bust our butts working from sunrise to sunset /sunset to sunrise and then some.

 

[jl lin]

.

What else would I do? Pilot? Job too unstable and declining salaries. Lawyer? Money and job security not good unless you graduate from top 5 law school these days. MBA? Would hate traveling all the time and money not good. Engineering? Was never too interested in computers and not good enough at physics and calculus.

I'd probably become a PA and earn my 100k/year after 2-3 years after college and minimal loans. I definitely envy the PA's, especially since they can switch fields multiple times if they want.

Sorry, I have to tell you that I know MBAs making great money, with great upward potential, depending on their particular business fields. In fact, if you want to make a lot of money with like half or less of the time-education investment, MBA may well be the way to go.

Point: it's stupid to me to pursue medicine primarily for the $$$. Those that do--or that do it for some sense of prestige or honor--are the ones that are often most disappointed in the work. IDK, perhaps some would disagree.

 

[Law2Doc]

Sorry, I have to tell you that I know MBAs making great money, with great upward potential, depending on their particular business fields. In fact, if you want to make a lot of money with like half or less of the time-education investment, MBA may well be the way to go.

Point: it's stupid to me to pursue medicine primarily for the $$$. Those that do--or that do it for some sense of prestige or honor--are the ones that are often most disappointed in the work. IDK, perhaps some would disagree.

Mba isn't a professional degree. You don't get one to go into business like you might need an MD to go into medicine or s JD to go into law. It's meant to enhance existing skills. So it shouldn't be described as a career path. You probably mean finance, consulting, management or marketing careers, all of which may at some point necessitate an mba to get promoted but none of which require it (or even want it) to get your first job. In general it's not the way to go until your employer offers to pay for it.

 

[jl lin]

Mba isn't a professional degree. You don't get one to go into business like you might need an MD to go into medicine or s JD to go into law. It's meant to enhance existing skills. So it shouldn't be described as a career path. You probably mean finance, consulting, management or marketing careers, all of which may at some point necessitate an mba to get promoted but none of which require it (or even want it) to get your first job. In general it's not the way to go until your employer offers to pay for it.

Have to disagree. I know plenty of people that paid/are paying for MBA--business in many different areas--they all HAVE made out and then some. Of course this is anecdotal, but getting a MBA can really enhance your growth potential. With any degree pretty much, it will still ultimately depend upon your overall performance, know-how in business--which involves a lot more than many people realize. Even undergrad BA programs have tightened up their curriculums to meet the increased demands of business and application of various metrics for expansion or control.

One person has her own finance firm. Another is a nurse that has gone far with the MBA in health admin. Other are in sales admin for big companies. Another is a CE that chose to enhance w/ MBA--works for Du Pont and is making a killing--just got another huge promotion. Another guy works for a refinery, and yes. His company is contributing to the MBA but isn't covering it all. And of course he works full-time for them and then some.

MBA can really add to your value, especially if you know how to perform in your particular field. Heck, there are more and more physicians getting MBAs.
Everyone has to pay their dues in any field; although, for better or worse, political savvy can help move you forward. This where I cast a squinted eye. Too much of this crap instead of true leadership.

Point is, there are a ton of other fields and ways to make a nice salary besides medicine, and by no means, at least IMHO, should people have this grandiose sense of financial compensation as a motivation for entering the profession. I would tend to think you agree.

 

[alwaysastudent2]

MBA is not a profession. I don't consider people with MBA professionals. nurse, accountant, financial analyst doctor lawyer is a professional. MBA is a lever for career growth and more$$$. Nothing else.

 

[Quik]

I think the wrong points are being addressed here; many other professions may earn as much as physicians. It's going to be quite difficult to assess the relative payoff of a medical degree over another high level professional degree like an MBA, JD, M.s. Engineering, etc.

Factors that I took the most stock in when considering my move from another well paying career, were:
1. Job satisfaction; I hated sitting at a desk all day, calling clients to push a trade, however, I really enjoy helping people.
2. Skill set; the skill set learned as a physician was in my opinion, the most valuable skill set I could put to use do #1.
3. Autonomy; If the economy plummeted, my skills would still have demand and value; I could also be my own boss, if I so desired.
4. Learning; Getting bored easily, I desired something that is an evolving practice where the learning never stops.
5. Need; Does the world really need the functional output of my career? In medicine, yes. In finance... I think the world would move right along just fine without one broker.

As per the long hours of residency, I can't yet comment with any accuracy, but I imagine there are two types of people out there who will either hate it or hate it less (possibly enjoying it). I see the former type among the personalities of many of the trad students I take classes with, constantly complaining about how demanding their work load is, that they can't wait to be done, and that they really hate making the sacrifices they have made thus far. While I tack this up perspective up to a lack of life experience, that of never suffering through much in life, I imagine these are the types who will hate medical school and/or residency and likely end up the bitter, dissatisfied physicians who'll preach that the sacrifices aren't worth it. On the other hand, if you're one who is somewhat academically masochistic and enjoys getting your ass handed to you by a grueling work load, day after day, then you'll probably be one in the latter group.

So, the question isn't to ask some resident here, "is it worth it?", but ask yourself; do I want really want to make X number of huge sacrifices for a really long time? Do I want to work 100 hours per week, realistically (80 is the legal maximum, but that is based on a weekly average, subtracting vacation hours)? Do I mind accumulating massive debt and living in abject poverty, for quite a long time? Could I be just as happy doing something else with my career?

I think it's also easy to lie to yourself and answer yes to all of the above, so be careful.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Yeah, I'm a 3rd year and I'm 38... will finish residency ~42...

 

[AM508]

32 here...I will be 33 when first year starts... If my calculations are correct I will finish residency when I am about 40-41.

 

[Tri4thlete]

Do it. There are a handful of people in my class that are 30+ years old, you only live once my friend! Go for it!

 

[Nasrudin]

I think the wrong points are being addressed here; many other professions may earn as much as physicians. It's going to be quite difficult to assess the relative payoff of a medical degree over another high level professional degree like an MBA, JD, M.s. Engineering, etc.

Factors that I took the most stock in when considering my move from another well paying career, were:
1. Job satisfaction; I hated sitting at a desk all day, calling clients to push a trade, however, I really enjoy helping people.
2. Skill set; the skill set learned as a physician was in my opinion, the most valuable skill set I could put to use do #1.
3. Autonomy; If the economy plummeted, my skills would still have demand and value; I could also be my own boss, if I so desired.
4. Learning; Getting bored easily, I desired something that is an evolving practice where the learning never stops.
5. Need; Does the world really need the functional output of my career? In medicine, yes. In finance... I think the world would move right along just fine without one broker.

As per the long hours of residency, I can't yet comment with any accuracy, but I imagine there are two types of people out there who will either hate it or hate it less (possibly enjoying it). I see the former type among the personalities of many of the trad students I take classes with, constantly complaining about how demanding their work load is, that they can't wait to be done, and that they really hate making the sacrifices they have made thus far. While I tack this up perspective up to a lack of life experience, that of never suffering through much in life, I imagine these are the types who will hate medical school and/or residency and likely end up the bitter, dissatisfied physicians who'll preach that the sacrifices aren't worth it. On the other hand, if you're one who is somewhat academically masochistic and enjoys getting your ass handed to you by a grueling work load, day after day, then you'll probably be one in the latter group.

So, the question isn't to ask some resident here, "is it worth it?", but ask yourself; do I want really want to make X number of huge sacrifices for a really long time? Do I want to work 100 hours per week, realistically (80 is the legal maximum, but that is based on a weekly average, subtracting vacation hours)? Do I mind accumulating massive debt and living in abject poverty, for quite a long time? Could I be just as happy doing something else with my career?

I think it's also easy to lie to yourself and answer yes to all of the above, so be careful.

This is a sophisticated, nuanced, and prescient post for a premed. But I think it's generally underappreciated by people in your shoes how little they will know about what their own mindstates will be like in mine. Not that mine aren't a moving target, they are. Last week I was on long string of getting served my on @ss for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Now I'm running indepedently on a consulting team with much less psychic drag and things pretty cool again. It's like that. Like anything.

But what it's not like. Is p@ssies over here, tough guys over here. And your answers have more to do with the person than the answer. That's only partially true. And therefore completely false.

As Q said very well in another thread you don't want the same things as you age. Medical training has a natural life cycle. Taking it on as an older person and being happy with it is incalculable as a premed. That's no different than saying to your customer to buy a unknown stock in a company that will emerge 5 years from now.

Everyone places their own bets. All I'm here to say is, it's not as predictable as Eor hates medicine but tigger loves it the end.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I worked in biotechnology for nearly 15 years. I was an EMT at the same time for nearly 20. I HATED every single day of working in biotech, I only used it as a way to try to convince myself it was a livable job. So I did a PB and got in.

Med school is F'ing hard. It's not hard because of the material, it's hard because at 38 years old, I'm not an idiot, but sometimes I'm wrong, and get treated like one. I'm confident, but sometimes that means I'm out of line. It is hard because when you haven't felt like a ***** every day of your life since you were a kid, it all comes back at you. There are days it F'ing sucks (insert your own expletive here). It's a physical and mental challenge. EVERY DAY. Guess what? Still better than working in a job I hated every day. Still better than looking at the future in biotech and thinking 'what a waste of my life this has been'... There are days that make me upset, I get depressed, I feel down, but not nearly as down as I felt working in my old job and thinking I gave up on myself.

Medicine isn't a 'job'. If you think it is just something to pass the time, you won't make it. You have to want it so badly that all the days that suck lumped together aren't enough to make you pack your crap and quit. I am friends with the smartest girl in my class, guess what, it's hard for her. You do not go into this because you want money, fame, prestige, etc. Those are all side effects. You go into this because when you're doing another job, and it isn't medicine, you feel like you've let yourself down. Because there is nothing else that actually completes your life. Because medicine is the ONLY thing that will make you happy.

 

[Tri4thlete]

Time + dedication.

That's one other thing I could advise. In order to do well in medical school, you really do have to IMMERSE yourself. Right now, really the only thing I do all day is go to class from 8-5, study an additional couple hours in the evening, make dinner, and work out. Rinse and repeat. I mix it up and maybe go to a friend's house and have some beers while studying, but really, you just need to be doing work 7 days per week. Like Prncssbuttercup said, it's a job! A 50+ hour per week job. If you didn't do these things you would just be cheating yourself.

If you have a ton of life commitments, six kids, six dogs, a nagging significant other who requires all your attention, or anything else that takes time, I would HIGHLY reconsider going to medical school. Think long and hard if you can commit yourself to the work. However, I do have classmates that are older and have six kids, six dogs, and many other things going on, and they are doing well. They are superheroes in my mind.

With that said, if you have the time to dedicate to medicine, the material itself isn't difficult. It's just a ton of information you need to process, that makes it hard.

 

[jl lin]

MBA is not a profession. I don't consider people with MBA professionals. nurse, accountant, financial analyst doctor lawyer is a professional. MBA is a lever for career growth and more$$$. Nothing else.

MBA is absolutely a professional degree. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

I am a RN and have been for some time. Actually, it hasn't been until more recent years that nursing was truly considered a profession. In fact, some, including some nurses, sadly, don't seem to view it as a profession.

Actually many really good MBA programs can be tough and hard to get into. Ultimately in whatever area one chooses, it is an advanced managerial/leadership degree. Upon graduation, "Professional" in the degree title is replaced with the name of the professional specialization completed."

Definition of profession: "a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification." This definitely applies to masters in business administration. You may not value it, intrinsically, as you would other professions, but that is simply a matter of one's personal opinion. It actually is a professional role of leadership in business-leadrship, where the types of business-leadership (specializations) may vary.

So we can argue what some would presume to be semantics until the cows come home. It is a professional degree, plain and simple.
At the end of the day, who cares?

My point was that much can be done, and a very decent salary, as well as types of fulfillment in practice--depending upon the individual and their positions on core leadership--can come with the degree, the right experience, networking, and leadership skills.

All graduate degrees can be viewed as levers for career growth and increased salary.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

At age 36 I left a job that paid better than medicine. I finished my MD at 40, residency at 43, fellowship at 45 and I could not be happier. I fyou want it and understand the pitfalls it is worth it!

Some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I just graduated one at 50.

Do it. There are a handful of people in my class that are 30+ years old, you only live once my friend! Go for it!

I'm 48, and in MS1. I'll probably be 54 - 55 by the time I clear school and residency. For the first time in my life I feel empowered, grounded with a clear goal and the drive to complete it. I would be no other place than where I am right now. I'll be in debt about 400K when I leave school, and that staggers me a bit. I intend to lead a non-trad life to: I've meet plenty of Dr.s still practicing at 80....that'll be me, my own health permitting. I feel a bit isolated by age from my younger peers, but I'm not the only older student at the school.

I am at a DO school, odd since I am skeptical of OMM itself, an atheist, and a scientist, and was so from the very start. DO schools are much more non-trad friendly, albeit they are generally private and costlier than public schools. The older you get the more likely that any acceptance you get will be from a DO school - age discrimination is illegal but so many f the Allo schools practice age discrimination. At 30 the OP would not stand out at my school, but is old enough to feel the fires of bias at some of the more Procrustean allo schools.

Don't pursue becoming a physician based entirely on compensation, you've worked with patients and know what you're getting into. Be a Dr. only if among your reasons for being a Dr. Include helping all of the people you've seen so far in your career. Personal status and money can be one your list of reasn for becoming a physician, but service should be there too.

 

[Dylasa]

I'm a 46 year old M1, parent and spouse. I love what I'm learning and I know that there are lots of ways to address the debt I'll be carrying - national service scholarship, creative investment strategies, etc. It doesn't hurt that my husband makes a good living.

For me, this is something I've wanted to do for most of my life and I finally have the opportunity to do it. I have a limited time on this rock, and it would suck to spend the whole of it mostly doing something that bores me or throws me into existential despair. I can tell you right now, I'm not bored. I honestly think that I might have it easier than my younger classmates, if for no other reason than that I have better time management skills and am not trying to date/figure myself out/drink myself to death. And also, I really, really like what I'm doing.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Like Prncssbuttercup said, it's a job! ....

She actually said it ISN'T a job...

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Yeah, my point is that this isn't something you just decide one day, like 'that sounds like a good job, I think I'll do that'... not going to work.

 

[Tri4thlete]

She actually said it ISN'T a job...

Curse my skimming skills. Regardless of what you think med school is, you must enjoy it. I say med school is a "job" because it keeps me committed, keeps me on task, keeps me in the classroom from 8-5 studying or listening to lecture. My friends have jobs, and I'm currently at a job that I LOVE. Feels great to say it too

Carry on peeps.