Is starting medicine at 30 worth it?

[chooks]

30 is plenty of time to switch careers but, as was said above, you need to want to do it - balls to bone. Financially you may come out ahead eventually, but that may take decades.

I went to med school at 32 and have about 8 months (and 3.5 months of rotations...) left in general training before I start a one year fellowship, to finish when I am 42. Misery in residency is a function of specialty and location. Residency for me has been great and I couldn't be happier with my training/program. I am in the lesser traveled path of Pathology (no intern year for me) so I have been with my kids when they took their first steps and said their first words. I have almost hit the 80 hour work limit a couple of times in my training. Great quality of life even as a resident (sorry Nas - love your posts but I know that misery loves company).. Point of all this: there are alternatives to the dehumanizing grind that others experience.

It can be tough as a non-trad with the peer-comparisons. People I have gone to college with are already are already retired or financially independent at 41/42. That can be hard to think about but it all comes down to what you value. It's not a decision easily or lightly made but at the end of the day there are a heap-load of sacrifices. Whatever you do - don't go into it for money or prestige though - that is light fare that will not sustain through the long hours ahead.

- chooks

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[Prncssbuttercup]

Med school is a FT-plus job. Medicine isn't. It's a passion, a calling, not a "gee, I can make money, fame, & prestige if I'm a doctor"...

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

MBA is absolutely a professional degree. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

I am a RN and have been for some time. Actually, it hasn't been until more recent years that nursing was truly considered a profession. In fact, some, including some nurses, sadly, don't seem to view it as a profession.

Actually many really good MBA programs can be tough and hard to get into. Ultimately in whatever area one chooses, it is an advanced managerial/leadership degree. Upon graduation, "Professional" in the degree title is replaced with the name of the professional specialization completed."

Definition of profession: "a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification." This definitely applies to masters in business administration. You may not value it, intrinsically, as you would other professions, but that is simply a matter of one's personal opinion. It actually is a professional role of leadership in business-leadrship, where the types of business-leadership (specializations) may vary.

So we can argue what some would presume to be semantics until the cows come home. It is a professional degree, plain and simple.
At the end of the day, who cares?

My point was that much can be done, and a very decent salary, as well as types of fulfillment in practice--depending upon the individual and their positions on core leadership--can come with the degree, the right experience, networking, and leadership skills.

All graduate degrees can be viewed as levers for career growth and increased salary.

I think the biggest take home message to be had by comparing the MBA to other professional degrees is this; To be come a doctor or a lawyer, one MUST have the appropriate credential to qualify and sit for the appropriate certification/license to operate under a restricted professional title (i.e. medical doctor, lawyer, etc.). For those who get MBA's, they are often people in positions like finance, human resources, accounting, management, etc. For these people, to become a manger, typically the undergraduate degree will suffice, in fact, to be anything in business for the most part, you are not required to have a degree, only the company asserts this arbitrary "requirement" to be employed under a contract with them. The MBA is a graduate/professional degree. The MBA enhances current knowledge within business. It is the same reason why you can look at any major corporation and find CEO's or any executive for that matter who have just a B.A. in history and pull in over $1 million a year vs. another executive at another company who has an MBA that pulls in the same amount, maybe more, maybe less. To be a doctor, one MUST obtain the D.O./M.D.....this is the biggest difference.

 

[jl lin]

I think the biggest take home message to be had by comparing the MBA to other professional degrees is this; To be come a doctor or a lawyer, one MUST have the appropriate credential to qualify and sit for the appropriate certification/license to operate under a restricted professional title (i.e. medical doctor, lawyer, etc.). For those who get MBA's, they are often people in positions like finance, human resources, accounting, management, etc. For these people, to become a manger, typically the undergraduate degree will suffice, in fact, to be anything in business for the most part, you are not required to have a degree, only the company asserts this arbitrary "requirement" to be employed under a contract with them. The MBA is a graduate/professional degree. The MBA enhances current knowledge within business. It is the same reason why you can look at any major corporation and find CEO's or any executive for that matter who have just a B.A. in history and pull in over $1 million a year vs. another executive at another company who has an MBA that pulls in the same amount, maybe more, maybe less. To be a doctor, one MUST obtain the D.O./M.D.....this is the biggest difference.

Don't disagree. It's really not the point though. BA, the right experience and talent, combined with strong leadership skills and the MBA can move your career trajectory quicker than in other fields such as medicine, or even a professorship; ergo, there are other fields such as business or something business relevant--which is really in all fields--where the MBA can really move you forward quicker and with comparatively less financial burden, and less arduous training (Eg:Med School --to pgY1 and forward--depending upon one's specialization).

And arguing over whether MBA is a professional degree, again, which it is, is really not what the thread is about. Is medicine worth it at 30? 30 can be an age where it might make more sense to move ahead in something like business-leadership--as I said, something that exists in ALL fields.

Here is the thing. There is no way to answer these kinds of questions presented by a number of those that post such threads. Only they can do the research and decide if it is worth it to them. They must decide how THEY define "worth it" for them. Worth is something that can be highly relative, or at least encompassing more areas than that of mere financial value.

If I were one of these people posting such questions, I would look to expanded interrogatives--with questions that encompassed more areas and the pros and cons. And this has been done here at SDN; yet we still see these posts that indicate the person hasn't done any work in understanding what admission, education, and life-work processes for medicine entail.

If people would do more initial research, they could really hone in on certain questions and get more valuable feedback from those that have been through the process.

In short, these kinds of questions lack substance; b/c the posters want people to make generalized statements, and the process of medicine is so involved, the generalized statements end up being relatively pointless--that is, I cannot see how the OP is any better off for having posted such vague questions w/o doing the required research.

Just makes no sense to me.

 

[QofQuimica]

I was 30 when I applied to medical school, started at 31, and am now an attending a few months shy of turning 40. I'm still figuring out how to make my peace with medicine. Because like Nas suggested, the 80 hour weeks and the total immersion in my work that were fine with me when I was 20 or 30, aren't so fine with me now that I'm 40. My priorities are different now, and I'm not wanting to be consumed by my career the same way I was when I was a decade or two younger.

Regarding your situation, I agree with L2D that if you're already asking as a premed whether med school is worth it, the answer is most likely no. As much as the pie in the sky premeds make us "graybeards" roll our eyes sometimes, to some extent you really need to have that kind of faith and optimism when starting out on a journey like this, lest it turn out to be a boondoggle.

 

[Bangs McCoy]

I have asked this question many times in contemplating what I want from my life. It's good to be objective about the pros and cons, but it's also important to keep drawing the same conclusion. In the case of medicine, the conclusion should be, "I want to go to medical school, internship, residency, etc. so that I may become a physician". This answer is not disregarding the grueling task of becoming a practicing physician, but being aware of the intricacies and still pursuing it. I have, in all honesty, tried everything else I think I could be doing professionally. It's refreshing to know that the final answer is always the same. Even if I daydream about alternate futures and fields, a few days pass and I still want to pursue medicine. I used to ask questions like, "would I be happy doing x?" and then I'd try x. I was lucky enough to throw myself into several different professions before making a firm decision on medicine. Nothing ever satisfied my interests, skills, abilities, and aptitudes the same way. It's one thing to be optimistic; it's another to be sure that the life, while difficult and all-consuming, is the only one that fits. I think that reassurance will get me through the whole ordeal.

I have a favorite quote that reflects my "one shot at life" approach to this journey: "Don't let the fear of the time it will take to accomplish something stand in the way of your doing it. The time will pass anyway; we might just as well put that passing time to the best possible use." - Earl Nightingale

So, how do you want to spend your time?

 

[Nasrudin]

I have asked this question many times in contemplating what I want from my life. It's good to be objective about the pros and cons, but it's also important to keep drawing the same conclusion. In the case of medicine, the conclusion should be, "I want to go to medical school, internship, residency, etc. so that I may become a physician". This answer is not disregarding the grueling task of becoming a practicing physician, but being aware of the intricacies and still pursuing it. I have, in all honesty, tried everything else I think I could be doing professionally. It's refreshing to know that the final answer is always the same. Even if I daydream about alternate futures and fields, a few days pass and I still want to pursue medicine. I used to ask questions like, "would I be happy doing x?" and then I'd try x. I was lucky enough to throw myself into several different professions before making a firm decision on medicine. Nothing ever satisfied my interests, skills, abilities, and aptitudes the same way. It's one thing to be optimistic; it's another to be sure that the life, while difficult and all-consuming, is the only one that fits. I think that reassurance will get me through the whole ordeal.

I have a favorite quote that reflects my "one shot at life" approach to this journey: "Don't let the fear of the time it will take to accomplish something stand in the way of your doing it. The time will pass anyway; we might just as well put that passing time to the best possible use." - Earl Nightingale

So, how do you want to spend your time?

Besides the fact that you have Zack Braff and Toto in your avatar simultaneously biases me towards thinking you're awesome, I definitely think this is the right perspective. As is jlin's for saying it's personal, And Q's for saying it changes.

It's just so hard to know before. That's why I really don't have any advice which is why my perspective sounds like discouragement. I knew in the first few weeks of medical school that I was all punched out of the zeal to compete. Then I discovered general medicine didn't interest me. And struggled to pick up the pieces of almost wasting the whole trip. Except I got lucky and found a good fit that also matched the level of fight I had left to make it into a spot where I wanted to live.

That's a lot of luck that fell into place for me.

I had a **** ton of exposure to medicine peripherally. And still everything I thought I wanted then turned on it's head. Despite being an intuitive person with good infight into my proclivities and satisfactions--I was wrong about all of it.

It makes it really hard for people at one end of the tunnel to communicate these things to people at the other. Such that I am seeing the wisdom of what Q just said--that a premed should just take all that enthusiasm and throw themselves into it and see what happens. Because I haven't seen any patterns that make sense in the alchemy of happiness while making it in medicine. It's just impossible to predict. I am satisfied with my choice. But consider it an ironic victory. That I can take no credit for.

 

[cabinbuilder]

I went to medical school at 32 and finished residency at 40. My life had gotten in the way before that time such as it was. For me it was totally worth it. Why?

I always wanted to be a doctor and my uphill battle to acceptance fulfilled that personal goal. Was it hard? Yes Would I do it again? Yes
I will always have a job
I will always have income with the capacity to make more if I need
I vowed I would never be homeless again
I could take care of my kids how I had envisioned.
I make my own schedule
I am happy at work everyday because I am grateful for having the opportunity to be the doctor I always wanted to be.

 

[jl lin]

I was 30 when I applied to medical school, started at 31, and am now an attending a few months shy of turning 40. I'm still figuring out how to make my peace with medicine. Because like Nas suggested, the 80 hour weeks and the total immersion in my work that were fine with me when I was 20 or 30, aren't so fine with me now that I'm 40. My priorities are different now, and I'm not wanting to be consumed by my career the same way I was when I was a decade or two younger.

Regarding your situation, I agree with L2D that if you're already asking as a premed whether med school is worth it, the answer is most likely no. As much as the pie in the sky premeds make us "graybeards" roll our eyes sometimes, to some extent you really need to have that kind of faith and optimism when starting out on a journey like this, lest it turn out to be a boondoggle.

Hmmm, boondoggle. As idealistic as it seems to say this, I truly don't think helping anyone through any part of the process--learning up to the last day you practice--is a waste. I'm not saying you are saying it; but it's the submitted word. Time served in helping others is never wasted--even if it doesn't always seem that way or if those on the receiving end aren't always appreciative.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hmmm, boondoggle. As idealistic as it seems to say this, I truly don't think helping anyone through any part of the process--learning up to the last day you practice--is a waste. I'm not saying you are saying it; but it's the submitted word. Time served in helping others is never wasted--even if it doesn't always seem that way or if those on the receiving end aren't always appreciative.

For someone who hates this career and does not get fulfillment out of it, yes, I think "boondoggle" is indeed the correct word. An angry, bitter physician is not much help to anyone, including himself.

 

[Aloft085]

For someone who hates this career and does not get fulfillment out of it, yes, I think "boondoggle" is indeed the correct word. An angry, bitter physician is not much help to anyone, including himself.

Care to elaborate on what happened and why you're unhappy?

 

[QofQuimica]

Care to elaborate on what happened and why you're unhappy?

I wasn't specifically talking about myself. I was fortunate enough to come out of med school with no debt, and I don't have to work extra hours to maintain my lifestyle. But suffice it to say that there are no work hour rules for attendings, and medicine can take over your whole life if you let it. People who work more overtime than they'd like because they can't afford to cut back are going to be unhappy, especially if they're not the type that wants to eat, sleep and breathe medicine. That's not good for the physicians themselves or for the patients they're ostensibly supposed to be helping.

 

[TheTao]

IMHO, 30 should be the minimum age to matriculate into med school.

 

[Nasrudin]

IMHO, 30 should be the minimum age to matriculate into med school.

That's ridiculous. The why of which can only be nonsense, so I don't need to ask.

 

[TheTao]

That's ridiculous. The why of which can only be nonsense, so I don't need to ask.

Ridiculous to YOU. I don't have time to list all the reasons why being someone's Physician should be NEVER be someone's first real job.

 

[Nasrudin]

Ridiculous to YOU. I don't have time to list all the reasons why being someone's Physician should be NEVER be someone's first real job.

I had my first real job at 15. If it takes you till 30 that's your problem.

 

[TheTao]

^^Geez, what a prissy comment from a Sufi.

 

[Nasrudin]

^^Geez, what a prissy comment from a Sufi.

Witty. I'm not a puppet frog either. What's prissy is trying to say someone is old enough to die for their country but not to be your physician. You might wanna rethink that. It doesn't make sense.

 

[TheTao]

Witty. I'm not a puppet frog either. What's prissy is trying to say someone is old enough to die for their country but not to be your physician. You might wanna rethink that. It doesn't make sense.

STOP bringing in outside points to support your disagreement with my statement. It's weak and counter productive to having an adult discussion especially when you resort to passive aggressively (and thus cowardly) resorting to statements like "If it takes you till 30 that's your problem".

 

[Nasrudin]

STOP bringing in outside points to support your disagreement with my statement. It's weak and counter productive to having an adult discussion especially when you resort to passive aggressively (and thus cowardly) resorting to statements like "If it takes you till 30 that's your problem".

Well. What you're saying. It's BS. So however I can make that point is ok with me. We are not better than our competition for being older. We're equals. And colleagues.

 

[DrMidlife]

There are 30-40-50 year old immature wastoids, and 15-25 year old sage+wise contributors. Having a "too young" cutoff is no more useful here than having a "too old" cutoff.

I'd like to see a requirement for premeds to live without the support of their parents for a minimum of a year before they're allowed to apply. Mom and Dad aren't paying your rent, your credit card or phone bill, your cable/internet bill, your car insurance, your health insurance, and you can't go home to do laundry. You don't get a car. Have to prove you can survive as part of the unwashed masses, so you have some respect for the unwashed masses you'll serve for the rest of your career. Some respect for the complexities of the workplace. Respect for how ridiculously HARD it is for those whose parents don't set them up.

Impossible, but I'd like to see it. Yeah, and it would get gamed right out the door. Sigh.

I'm finding in med school the same thing I found in industry: the people I can count on the most are those who waited tables, or similar, for rent money. With some exceptions. Those born on 3rd base, who are making sure their kids are born on 3rd base, are the clueless and dangerous ones I fear the most, and dislike working with the most. With some exceptions.

 

[TheTao]

Well. What you're saying. It's BS. So however I can make that point is ok with me. We are not better than our competition for being older. We're equals. And colleagues.

I NEVER said nor did I imply that ANYONE was "better", those were YOUR words so YOU own them.

What I WILL say is that there is NO substitute for the maturity that comes with AGE for most people, especially when you're making life and death decisions. So with that said, I do think there's a such thing as too young to attend med school.

Now since we're bringing in outside arguments, ever wonder why there's an age minimum for being President? Yeah.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I NEVER said nor did I imply that ANYONE was "better" those were YOUR words so YOU own them.

What I WILL say is that there is NO substitute for the maturity that comes with AGE, especially when you're making life and death decisions.

Except maturity doesn't really come with age.

Not by itself at least. It comes with experience. While greater age gives you more opportunity for experience, it doesn't guarantee it.

I've spent many years working at a teaching hospital and haven't really seen much of a correlation between age of the residents and fellows and maturity or skill level.

There are immature and dangerous nontrads and dedicated and mature traditional students.

@DrMidlife, I think your idea is awesome!

 

[TheTao]

Except maturity doesn't really come with age.

Not by itself at least. It comes with experience.

And if you're from a certain SES and/or racial group, "life experience" by a certain age is a given.

Geez, the hair splitting around here is ridiculous!

 

[wholeheartedly]

And if you're from a certain SES and/or racial group, "life experience" by a certain age is a given.

Geez, the hair splitting around here is ridiculous!

Interesting from someone who wants a 30 year old minimum cutoff...

 

[Nasrudin]

Just say maturity is important. And maybe you're right. Maybe.

Maturity is kind of user dependent word though. Kind of like professionalism. Sort of the purvey of scorned women and sour pussed administrators respectively.. So even when it makes sense. You're not sure you want an invitation to that party. I'll take my "immature" colleagues just as they are I guess. But..I've never aspired to being mature. Or even respectable. Or upstanding. Certainly not god-fearing. Or any of these agency of control words.

 

[NontradCA]

There are 30-40-50 year old immature wastoids, and 15-25 year old sage+wise contributors. Having a "too young" cutoff is no more useful here than having a "too old" cutoff.

I'd like to see a requirement for premeds to live without the support of their parents for a minimum of a year before they're allowed to apply. Mom and Dad aren't paying your rent, your credit card or phone bill, your cable/internet bill, your car insurance, your health insurance, and you can't go home to do laundry. You don't get a car. Have to prove you can survive as part of the unwashed masses, so you have some respect for the unwashed masses you'll serve for the rest of your career. Some respect for the complexities of the workplace. Respect for how ridiculously HARD it is for those whose parents don't set them up.

Impossible, but I'd like to see it. Yeah, and it would get gamed right out the door. Sigh.

I'm finding in med school the same thing I found in industry: the people I can count on the most are those who waited tables, or similar, for rent money. With some exceptions. Those born on 3rd base, who are making sure their kids are born on 3rd base, are the clueless and dangerous ones I fear the most, and dislike working with the most. With some exceptions.

Why do you find these people dangerous? I can see how you may find silver platter kids annoying, but I don't buy that the only way to build character is through hard work and sacrifice. I'm not sure how I'd turned out if I had everything growing up. Happier, most likely. What qualities do you think struggling gives you that helps as a physician? Don't pre-meds have to work hard to even be competitive for school?

 

[DrMidlife]

Why do you find these people dangerous? I can see how you may find silver platter kids annoying, but I don't buy that the only way to build character is through hard work and sacrifice. I'm not sure how I'd turned out if I had everything growing up. Happier, most likely. What qualities do you think struggling gives you that helps as a physician? Don't pre-meds have to work hard to even be competitive for school?

Hard work on academics isn't the same kind of hard work as busting your ass for tip money, month after month, or similar. The average premed never needs to worry that if they fail an exam they won't make rent.

And let's be clear that I said with some exceptions. I have some excellent colleagues from very privileged backgrounds, and I have some entitled douchebag colleagues who grew up in poverty. People on SDN sure love to argue about absolutes and I have none to offer here.

In my view what's dangerous about a med student with no real world work experience is that they are limited in imagination. They are baffled and frustrated at a patient who fails to pick up a $300 prescription and have no ideas how to solve the medical problem another way. They've never had to ask their boss for a day off work to get to the doctor. The worst thing I've seen is med students treating nurses like personal assistants, and the best thing I've seen is how nurses respond.

 

[Nasrudin]

Semantically we might approach these things differently but I'm sure we all know who our good teammates are. And who we would want taking care of our loved ones.

I personally don't know what part of nature/nurture produces these qualities. It seems to occur in such variety that I wouldn't try to reduce it down to something predictable. That result would be counter-productive to the vibe we'd all prefer.

 

[jl lin]

I NEVER said nor did I imply that ANYONE was "better", those were YOUR words so YOU own them.

What I WILL say is that there is NO substitute for the maturity that comes with AGE for most people, especially when you're making life and death decisions. So with that said, I do think there's a such thing as too young to attend med school.

Now since we're bringing in outside arguments, ever wonder why there's an age minimum for being President? Yeah.

Tao, honestly, you are bypassing the fact that people of all ages are individuals. At 20 years old, I know I was more mature--but still had much to learn--than many of my peers--and honestly, more so than many 20 year olds today. People come out of all kinds of circumstances, and then there is the whole nature and nurture impact that can produce many different variations of individuals and behaviors.

Although I hate to generalize, there are people that have tried to demonstrate that the psychological developmental age of an addict seems to stay stunted at the age the addiction took hold of them. Thus, there are plenty of addicts at 50, that may still be reasoning things out psychologically from a teen-age standpoint.

I do understand that there is something to be said re: age <20 and frontal lobe development; but, once again, individuals are different both due to nature and nurture. Besides, mostly, I 'd say, some pretty organized, mature 20 or 21 year olds are applying to med school--and if they can get all the hoops in enough to persuade a committee to give them a chance, they can't be doing that badly. By the time of their med school matriculation, based on a general understanding of development--the frontload should be ready to receive information and respond with better decision-making skills.

There is some substance to what you say; but more would be required in terms of demonstration in order for it to be generalized. I mean, seriously, I wouldn't go by mere chronological age of the adult. I would go by the host of other things one has to demonstrate in order to get into medical school. And this is, at least in part, why I suggested 2000 hours of direct clinical exposure, for which people sort of scoffed at me. Personally, in requiring such a thing, I think the schools would be doing everyone a favor across the board--including the applicant. (I know I will get whacked for re-introducing this; but I think it would be very valuable and would give people more time to realistically evaluate if this is the world for them--and also demonstrate the commitment and maturity to becoming a dedicated physician. And I don't want some jaded, disappointed physician, who now feels stuck in medicine b/c of the time and money invested, caring for my loved ones. Do you? I have to wonder about the percentage of physicians out there may fit into the jaded-disappointed category. But, I guess that is just me.)


Look I don't care what age you are, so long as you are demonstratively mature, caring, bright, and are dedicated to medicine and the people for which you, as a physician, are caring.

 

[TheTao]

Tao, honestly, you are bypassing the fact that people of all ages are individuals. .

Actually, I'm NOT. It's just SDN culture to spilt hairs over EVERYTHING and read into the comments of others.

 

[jl lin]

Actually, I'm NOT. It's just SDN culture to spilt hairs over EVERYTHING and read into the comments of others.

Yes. At times this is true. Had it happen to me as well, but this is what happens when you post an opinion on forums.

So, I am genuinely confused. What this hyperbole or were you serious: "IMHO, 30 should be the minimum age to matriculate into med school?'

Yes, people can take things and spaghettify then beyond a simple point one was trying to make. Happens a lot online, and people have to be careful even how they say things in person/RL, b/c for some reason, people don't ask for clarification or a bit more exposition re: what you mean. Some people will do so, and will do so with honest inquiry. Most won't, or their inquiry is one of judgment or condescension. It's a real skill to learn how to actively listen, and most of us are no where near as good at is as we should be.

Makes you learn the importance of being very quite in RL with people, unless you can succinctly state your perspective in a very balanced way, off the cuff. If you can anticipate that this will probably not occur, for whatever reason, you are better off not voicing it--cuz you can be sure, often enough, someone will take it and run wild with it. Next thing you know, you are the idiot or radical, or whatever. I don't share my opinions nearly as much as I used to, b/c I have seen this behavior occur for others and me a few too many times. Once it comes out, there is not necessarily time given for clarification from others.

At least on a message board you can try to clarify where you were coming from. Some will get it, and some won't. All you can do is your best to communicate with clarity.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I just wish there was a part of the MCAT thrown in that would quantify how much of a Dbag some students are. I can say for a fact that I wish some of my classmates had not been accepted. Not only will they be judgmental, mean/nasty doctors, they are that way to their peers... not people that are needed in medicine!

 

[jl lin]

I just wish there was a part of the MCAT thrown in that would quantify how much of a Dbag some students are. I can say for a fact that I wish some of my classmates had not been accepted. Not only will they be judgmental, mean/nasty doctors, they are that way to their peers... not people that are needed in medicine!

Yes, but maybe some of them will grow in empathy and maturity, in time. I like to see the glass half full.
Princessbuttercup, your name makes me smile. Makes me think of the Princess Bride. . .but I could never get through the whole movie--in fact, most parts I have never seen. I had a professor in school, and he would go on and on about how much his wife loved the movie, and the many good messages that can come out of the movie. Still, I could never get through it. LOL.

It's weird; b/c I like to be a "glass-half-full" kind of person, but I prefer Russian literature. Isn't that odd. I am so atypical, it's wild.

Anyway, are you a DO or MD student Princess? I am curious to know if in some small way, it's a factor. I know a lot of people with great stats that do DO, but I wonder if some of the easier standards of acceptance make a difference for younger DO students? I am sure this is a gross generalization, which again, I hate. But I still wonder. Just seems like those that have worked harder, may be a little more mature. Don't shoot me fellow SDNers. It's just an honest, question, probably with absolutely no basis at all.

Oops. I just saw OMS in your line. LOL

 

[TheTao]

So, I am genuinely confused. What this hyperbole or were you serious: "IMHO, 30 should be the minimum age to matriculate into med school?'

I'm being VERY serious, I stand by my opinion on this, and I feel I've been crystal clear. However, I'm so NOT looking for any agreement or consensus on this, I'm just stating my personal opinion based on a decades long observation of the medical profession as patient, relative of patients, and Researcher.

IMHO, if the office of the Presidency can have a minimum age requirement, then the medical profession should too. Might even be a good way to weed out people pursuing medicine for the wrong reasons since I'm speculating that they make for $hitty Doctors with an equally $hitty bedside manner to match.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Yes, but maybe some of them will grow in empathy and maturity, in time. I like to see the glass half full.
Princessbuttercup, your name makes me smile. Makes me think of the Princess Bride. . .but I could never get through the whole movie--in fact, most parts I have never seen. I had a professor in school, and he would go on and on about how much his wife loved the movie, and the many good messages that can come out of the movie. Still, I could never get through it. LOL.

It's weird; b/c I like to be a "glass-half-full" kind of person, but I prefer Russian literature. Isn't that odd. I am so atypical, it's wild.

Anyway, are you a DO or MD student Princess? I am curious to know if in some small way, it's a factor. I know a lot of people with great stats that do DO, but I wonder if some of the easier standards of acceptance make a difference for younger DO students? I am sure this is a gross generalization, which again, I hate. But I still wonder. Just seems like those that have worked harder, may be a little more mature. Don't shoot me fellow SDNers. It's just an honest, question, probably with absolutely no basis at all.

Oops. I just saw OMS in your line. LOL

I am a DO student. The princess bride is where my name is from. I hope some of them change as well, but I won't be around to see it...

 

[jl lin]

I'm being VERY serious, I stand by my opinion on this, and I feel I've been crystal clear. However, I'm so NOT looking for any agreement or consensus on this, I'm just stating my personal opinion based on a decades long observation of the medical profession as patient, relative of patients, and Researcher.

IMHO, if the office of the Presidency can have a minimum age requirement, then the medical profession should too. Might even be a good way to weed out people pursuing medicine for the wrong reasons since I'm speculating that they make for $hitty Doctors with an equally $hitty bedside manner to match.

Who would make sh1tty docs, etc, people under 30?

I have worked with some great resident physicians that were under 30 as an RN in many, crazy ICUs. Sure, July is a very green time for PGY-1's; but for the most part, after working a very long time in the field, I'd say most really gave a darn about what they were doing. There were of course some exceptions, but you can say this about the rare attending also. As a relative of patients, well, this has been frustrating at times--even with me going low profile on the hc side of things. I am wondering, however, that in more recent years, with the crack down in-house on residents going over 80 hours, if this is a factor. And it has been discussed here at SDN that the system of handing off patients with the ACGME restrictions is showing more and more of an impact on quality of care. It's astonishing the number of patients that may have to be covered during the gap time in order to meet the hour-restrictions. I was protected from this a lot more than other RNs, in that I worked in surgical units, and I don't know how these places got around it; but the surgical residents and fellows pretty much lived at the hospital--I mean, seriously--more so than other kinds of residents--same thing with those rotating through intensive care areas or fellows in these areas.

Certainly it's perfectly fine to have your own opinion, but without looking at all the factors and variables, it may end up being more than a little unfair and also inaccurate.

 

[Bangs McCoy]

Besides the fact that you have Zack Braff and Toto in your avatar simultaneously biases me towards thinking you're awesome, I definitely think this is the right perspective. As is jlin's for saying it's personal, And Q's for saying it changes.

It's just so hard to know before. That's why I really don't have any advice which is why my perspective sounds like discouragement. I knew in the first few weeks of medical school that I was all punched out of the zeal to compete. Then I discovered general medicine didn't interest me. And struggled to pick up the pieces of almost wasting the whole trip. Except I got lucky and found a good fit that also matched the level of fight I had left to make it into a spot where I wanted to live.

That's a lot of luck that fell into place for me.

I had a **** ton of exposure to medicine peripherally. And still everything I thought I wanted then turned on it's head. Despite being an intuitive person with good infight into my proclivities and satisfactions--I was wrong about all of it.

It makes it really hard for people at one end of the tunnel to communicate these things to people at the other. Such that I am seeing the wisdom of what Q just said--that a premed should just take all that enthusiasm and throw themselves into it and see what happens. Because I haven't seen any patterns that make sense in the alchemy of happiness while making it in medicine. It's just impossible to predict. I am satisfied with my choice. But consider it an ironic victory. That I can take no credit for.

We're all getting too far away from the biggest point here - Nasrudin thinks I'm awesome. I've been lurking on these forums since 2008 listening to his advice, and after this, I can die happy. Nothing will top this.

/thread

 

[TheTao]

IMHO, if the office of the Presidency can have a minimum age requirement, then the medical profession should too. Might even be a good way to weed out people pursuing medicine for the wrong reasons since I'm speculating that they make for $hitty Doctors with an equally $hitty bedside manner to match.

Ji Lin, given the financial implications of pursuing medicine later in life, do you really think there are a lot of 30+ year old premeds pursuing medicine because mommy/daddy are Physicians and/or Scientists, due to parental pressure, for prestige, or to earn a high income? I honestly never once got that vibe from the old premeds website or from anyone over 30 I've known to pursue medicine.

Please note (and this is a fantastic MCAT verbal review lesson) that I never once use words like "always", "never" which means that I'm not speaking of everyone under or over 30.

 

[Snakes]

I've been lurking on these forums since 2008 listening to his advice, and after this, I can die happy. Nothing will top this.

/thread

Your future husband and future children will be thrilled to know this. (I'm just joking lol)

 

[Snakes]

Ji Lin, given the financial implications of pursuing medicine later in life, do you really think there are a lot of 30+ year old premeds pursuing medicine because mommy/daddy are Physicians and/or Scientists, due to parental pressure, for prestige, or to earn a high income? I honestly never once got that vibe from the old premeds website or from anyone over 30 I've known to pursue medicine.

For me, personally, I've gotten the opposite reaction--I often get what I call the "What, are you crazy??!!" look/question. Most people think I'm nuts for doing this at my age. There's definitely no family/friend pressure TOWARD it. Everyone close to me knows what I'm doing, but I don't talk about it with people I don't know very well. It just gets awkward.

I do have a close friend who, after I told him I was planning to apply to med school, told me if I was having a midlife crisis it would be a lot easier to just buy a Porsche.

 

[TheTao]

I do have a close friend who, after I told him I was planning to apply to med school, told me if I was having a midlife crisis it would be a lot easier to just buy a Porsche.

I thought viagra/cialis "cured" the midlife crisis issue, LOL!!

 

[Snakes]

I thought viagra/cialis "cured" the midlife crisis issue, LOL!!

Well I'm a girl, so it's going to take a lot more than Viagra to get me through this midlife crisis

 

[TheTao]

Well I'm a girl, so it's going to take a lot more than Viagra to get me through this midlife crisis

I realized after I posted you may be female however as I understand it, a middle aged woman on viagra is like a teenager/20 something man on viagra, ROTFL!!!

Hmmmm, sounds like a FABULOUS mix for pursuing med school later in life, at least for women!

 

[Nasrudin]

I'd also like to round out my take on old people. Love hanging out with old people. Always have. My best friends as a young man included people in their 60's and 80's. And let's be clear--if you don't know anything about roller skate dancing or funk/soul/70's rock music you can F@ck yourself. But medicine is a different thing. for which the wisdom of age is break even exchange to the vitality of youth. And just because people are young doesn't mean they don't do great bedside manner--that's just a myth.

You know what makes for good bedside manner--being a nice person. And...idk...what yall's experience with old folks is but nice vs grouchy old bastard seems to be in the same distribution as it is at 20 from mine.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I know a lot of really nice people who will soon be doctors. I just also know a lot of really jerk people who will also soon be doctors. I don't think age has as much to do with it as upbringing. The rude people I speak of have likely never been told to STFU because of their attitude. I expect it to happen when they are in residency. You will not be able to be rude and condescending to your fellow residents and expect your peer reviews to go swimmingly. Same with stabbing them in the back and whining to your attending because you don't like something.
Tao, I'm not sure of what you do, but 30 isn't going to weed out the a$$hats. What would be better is to have them take a personality test without them knowing it's a personality test and weed out the people with Anti-social personalities...

 

[jl lin]

I'd also like to round out my take on old people. Love hanging out with old people. Always have. My best friends as a young man included people in their 60's and 80's. And let's be clear--if you don't know anything about roller skate dancing or funk/soul/70's rock music you can F@ck yourself. But medicine is a different thing. for which the wisdom of age is break even exchange to the vitality of youth. And just because people are young doesn't mean they don't do great bedside manner--that's just a myth.

You know what makes for good bedside manner--being a nice person. And...idk...what yall's experience with old folks is but nice vs grouchy old bastard seems to be in the same distribution as it is at 20 from mine.

What are you saying? You are starting to feel old or aged? Dude. You aren't really that old. It's not like you are getting ready to push up daisies. And I have met grumpy old 20 year olds. Trust me. I remember feeling this as a 28 year old, working with miserable old 22 year olds. It's weird but some people have this old mentality.

 

[jl lin]

Yes. Grumpiness is not an age specific thing. It's a personality thing, period.