Is there a doctor on board/in the house

[someguy123]

Hello to everyone!

I have a biref question: A friend of mine studied medicine a few years back----he finished at the age of 28 with his med. school degree but never started working as a MD because he didn't like it (he went into business etc.). Just to be clear---he DID finish his degree but never started working as a MD. A few weeks back (he's 31years old now) there was a medical emergency on the airplane he was travelling with and the flight attendant asked "if there is any doctor on board?" My friend told me that he didn't stand up etc. because "neither does he see himself as a doctor nor does he feel like one"---I wanted to ask you guys what you think about that?Is such behavior acceptable?Or should he have gone there?

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[Keg]

Hello to everyone!

I have a biref question: A friend of mine studied medicine a few years back----he finished at the age of 28 with his med. school degree but never started working as a MD because he didn't like it (he went into business etc.). Just to be clear---he DID finish his degree but never started working as a MD. A few weeks back (he's 31years old now) there was a medical emergency on the airplane he was travelling with and the flight attendant asked "if there is any doctor on board?" My friend told me that he didn't stand up etc. because "neither does he see himself as a doctor nor does he feel like one"---I wanted to ask you guys what you think about that?Is such behavior acceptable?Or should he have gone there?

He doesn't have a medical license, so acting as he did is fully appropriate. Honestly, after not practicing for a few years (and with only an undergraduate medical education), he may have done more harm than good for someone. So, it's probably better that he didn't step up and possibly do something that could get him in trouble.

 

[dienekes88]

Yeah... practicing medicine without a license is illegal...

 

[chiz2kul]

Hello to everyone!

I have a biref question: A friend of mine studied medicine a few years back----he finished at the age of 28 with his med. school degree but never started working as a MD because he didn't like it (he went into business etc.). Just to be clear---he DID finish his degree but never started working as a MD. A few weeks back (he's 31years old now) there was a medical emergency on the airplane he was travelling with and the flight attendant asked "if there is any doctor on board?" My friend told me that he didn't stand up etc. because "neither does he see himself as a doctor nor does he feel like one"---I wanted to ask you guys what you think about that?Is such behavior acceptable?Or should he have gone there?

really?

 

[FutureInternist]

My friend told me that he didn't stand up etc. because "neither does he see himself as a doctor nor does he feel like one"---I wanted to ask you guys what you think about that?Is such behavior acceptable?Or should he have gone there?

I've had preceptors tell me they never stand up when this happens since they don't want to get sued......

 

[someguy123]

Ok I'll be honest---that "friend" I was talking about is actually me and I'm having second thoughts and a sore conscience but more importantly I wanna try to sort out how I should behave in future "emergency" situations:


A little background information----I started studying medicine because of my parents in the first place and I didn't like it at all. Midway through I wanted to change my subject completely and go into business but everyone told my to at least finish and that I could go into business even with a MD.So I did. I finished after 5 years of studying at a university and a 6th pratical year(im from a european country-different system).After my last exam I did get an license but like previously mentioned I never ever started working in that field. I went on coaching a sports team and running a restaurant where I work in. One of the reasons why I was always vary of medicine is because I disliked being around patients (I know this sounds cold but that's just the way it is) and I couldn't cope with the pending responsibility of making big time (maybe even life/death) decisions in other people's life-----so I never looked back etc.


Now this happened and I'm just unsure as how to behave in future?Of course I've been out of the medical field for over 3 years now and my knowledge is going to further diminish over time but am I supposed to go there in future situations nevertheless?I have no clue and this scenario is now constantly running through my mind.........

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah... practicing medicine without a license is illegal...

There are good samaritan laws that protect you from screwing up in rendering aid, so I wouldn't worry about the illegality, had you wanted to help. But nor does having an MD doesn't obligate you to render help under any rule of law. Your duty almost exclusively arises from the Hippocratic oath, if you took it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok I'll be honest---that "friend" I was talking about is actually me and I'm having second thoughts and a sore conscience but more importantly I wanna try to sort out how I should behave in future "emergency" situations:


A little background information----I started studying medicine because of my parents in the first place and I didn't like it at all. Midway through I wanted to change my subject completely and go into business but everyone told my to at least finish and that I could go into business even with a MD.So I did. I finished after 5 years of studying at a university and a 6th pratical year(im from a european country-different system).After my last exam I did get an license but like previously mentioned I never ever started working in that field. I went on coaching a sports team and running a restaurant where I work in. One of the reasons why I was always vary of medicine is because I disliked being around patients (I know this sounds cold but that's just the way it is) and I couldn't cope with the pending responsibility of making big time (maybe even life/death) decisions in other people's life-----so I never looked back etc.


Now this happened and I'm just unsure as how to behave in future?Of course I've been out of the medical field for over 3 years now and my knowledge is going to further diminish over time but am I supposed to go there in future situations nevertheless?I have no clue and this scenario is now constantly running through my mind.........

I am less troubled that you didn't render aid on the plane and more troubled that you had such a poor reason to attend med school that you ended up taking a seat of a person who potentially would have become a practicing physician and rendered aid on that plane (or some other similar setting). Your actions already have had life-affecting impact, given the finite number of med school seats.

 

[someguy123]

may I say to my defense that I hoped to start liking medicine till midway through medschool(then I realized that medicine is just not for me)---and at that point it wouldn't have made a difference I believe.

 

[dodobird13]

I am less troubled that you didn't render aid on the plane and more troubled that you had such a poor reason to attend med school that you ended up taking a seat of a person who potentially would have become a practicing physician and rendered aid on that plane (or some other similar setting). Your actions already have had life-affecting impact, given the finite number of med school seats.

are you serious? was that really necessary?

 

[niranjan162]

I am less troubled that you didn't render aid on the plane and more troubled that you had such a poor reason to attend med school that you ended up taking a seat of a person who potentially would have become a practicing physician and rendered aid on that plane (or some other similar setting). Your actions already have had life-affecting impact, given the finite number of med school seats.

while i agree with your sentiment im sure there are many people who have been/are in med school that feel the same way as the op.

 

[Forthegood]

It is not likely that this will occur with any frequency, so I would say you are probably in the clear. Nevertheless, if a situation does arise, you should try to help... at least while more help is called. I think everyone should, and if there is someone more experienced, let them take over.

On the other hand, if you really don't want to help, you'll probably not be of much help either way. In which case, sit back, put your tray table down, enjoy your peanuts and the in-flight movie.

 

[MOHS_01]

I am less troubled that you didn't render aid on the plane and more troubled that you had such a poor reason to attend med school that you ended up taking a seat of a person who potentially would have become a practicing physician and rendered aid on that plane (or some other similar setting). Your actions already have had life-affecting impact, given the finite number of med school seats.

What? Are you the medical school admission police now? Or have you wholly bought into the fallacious premise that matriculation is somehow a binding, albeit unwritten contract with society for future servitude? Some, using that very same logic, have made an equally effective argument against allowing second career and non-traditional students into the system because their productive career would be measurably shorter.

 

[NonTradMed]

Aren't there typically Good Samarian laws that say you can be protected against lawsuits for rendering aid to strangers in an emergency? I didn't think you could get in trouble for helping. But I think if someone asked for a doctor to give aid, only someone who is practicing as a doctor should offer help. An unlicensed doctor who've never practiced is not really any better than the average Joe (ok, maybe a little bit better...).

 

[Rendar5]

(or maybe a bit worse. if you can't help effectively and try to help, you could easily worsen a situation. a little knowledge can be very dangerous)

 

[docB]

Now this happened and I'm just unsure as how to behave in future?Of course I've been out of the medical field for over 3 years now and my knowledge is going to further diminish over time but am I supposed to go there in future situations nevertheless?I have no clue and this scenario is now constantly running through my mind.........

I think you did the right thing. When they call for "a doctor on board" what they really mean is that they want someone who can give advanced medical assistance and use the equipment they have on board which can actually be pretty extensive. Many licensed and practicing docs in specialties that don't do a lot of codes, urgent care, etc. would not be competent to intervene in this situation either. In fact by standing up for that you would have caused the crew to quit looking for someone else who might have been more help like a nurse or a paramedic.

And for all non-airborne incidents the best thing that we can contribute is to have a phone and call 911.

 

[Hernandez]

Aren't there typically Good Samarian laws that say you can be protected against lawsuits for rendering aid to strangers in an emergency? I didn't think you could get in trouble for helping. But I think if someone asked for a doctor to give aid, only someone who is practicing as a doctor should offer help. An unlicensed doctor who've never practiced is not really any better than the average Joe (ok, maybe a little bit better...).

yes there are and no they do not always protect. there was a case of a woman being sued in california not too long ago because she pulled a woman from a car who later developed some spinal complication, since the would-be rescuer wasn't trained in any aid skill sets, she was not covered by the good samaritin laws there. In Vermont (I believe this is the correct state) physicians DO have a required duty to treat, so you have no good samaritan law protections since if you have a duty to treat, you are open to malpractice lawsuits (in theory).

If you do not have a medical license, I'd have done the same thing in your place.

 

[niranjan162]

What? Are you the medical school admission police now? Or have you wholly bought into the fallacious premise that matriculation is somehow a binding, albeit unwritten contract with society for future servitude? Some, using that very same logic, have made an equally effective argument against allowing second career and non-traditional students into the system because their productive career would be measurably shorter.

I think no matter what the job, doing it because you thought it would make your parents happy is a bad thing (as opposed to what make you happy, be it money, saving lives, gaining knowledge whatever). I think medicine/law has a high proportion of mommy pleasers

 

[someguy123]

Just to be a little clearer-----I might be a mommy pleaser I admit but it wasn't that easy. My parents are both doctors who have their own private practice. When I was 19 I was a pretty insecure guy--didn't know what to study. I actually applied for law because that was the only field I was interested in---but then my parents told me that they are against it, they wouldn't support me,it was a bad idea,lawyers are bad and lie etc. etc. After listening to that for an extended period of time I changed my mind and went into med. school with the hope of getting interested in it---but unfortunately that never happened. I had literally 1000 of discussions with my parents about other fields such as business/law/engineering etc. as I saw that I'm not warming up to medicine but my parents never gave me the feeling of trust and support---that's why I kept on studying medicine. I got severely depressed and took medication for quite a long period of time.
Today I TOTALLY regret all that stuff and there isn't anything I want more then being able to turn the clock back to when I was 19 years old-but I can't. I should have NEVER listened to my parents at all---I learned that-the hard way. Today I have a pretty poor relationship to them---all due to that whole studying thing.

Just wanted to say that I didn't make it easy for myself IMO.

Anyways thanks for your guys reply.

BTW one note: It's not that I don't want to help--it's that I'm very uncomfortable making decisions on other people's bodies etc-that was also one of the main reason I never warmed up to medicine--I simply feel like I'm not made for that responsibility.

 

[NTF]

In fact by standing up for that you would have caused the crew to quit looking for someone else who might have been more help like a nurse or a paramedic.

After working in healthcare you start to realize how "Is there a doctor in the house?" is pretty misguided. What if you end up with a pathologist or opthalmologist? Better to ask for a critical care nurse or EMT.

 

[dodobird13]

After working in healthcare you start to realize how "Is there a doctor in the house?" is pretty misguided. What if you end up with a pathologist or opthalmologist? Better to ask for a critical care nurse or EMT.

exactly why i never volunteer. i would have no idea what to do except offer to do the post, maybe.

 

[Forthegood]

After working in healthcare you start to realize how "Is there a doctor in the house?" is pretty misguided. What if you end up with a pathologist or opthalmologist? Better to ask for a critical care nurse or EMT.

Uhmmm... ER physician, anesthesiologist, intensivist.... this list goes on. Always better to get the doctor who gives the orders than the nurse who recieves them. This is silly. The person is dying, odds are you are not going to have enough selection to be picky. Besides, anyone with ACLS will suffice.

 

[J-Rad]

Attached is a nice review of issues surrounding Good Samaritan laws (written in a radiology journal).

One important thing to note about these laws is that to be protected, no form of payment may be taken. So don't take that free thank-you drink as it may be construed to constitute payment.

 

[GH253]

I'm not concerned about licencing, but if he felt unfit to provide assistance, he did the right thing.