Is this a crazy idea?

[LupaCupcake]

Most of you know my story so I won't explain my situation all over again.

Is this a crazy idea.....

Since things are so chaotic for me currently and I have so many unknowns about the future, my situation with family , support and childcare etc.......

I need research experience for grad school before I can consider anything else. I need chem/phy prereqs for med school which was original plan. I am currently enrolled in Chemistry for next term coming up because I needed to do something, I cannot sit stagnant anymore and I have some GI bill left. What if I continue to knock out these prereqs, keep my GPA high (3.8, 3,9 psych) while at the same time exploring options for research experience and getting into that area until I find something .

Ultimately, what if I work towards med school AND grad school and see where I end up going with it? My rationale is this, the extra science courses won't hurt me getting into grad school nor will they necessarily help. The research experience will actually help me with med school and I need it for grad school.

I have to start moving forward and I may have a lot of unknown variables right now, but I am 30 years old lol...I have to push forward

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[erg923]

Personally, I would recommend thinking carefully about 1.) what kind of life you want. 2) what you would like to do on a daily basis. 3.) what your actual acadmic and/or research and clinical interests are.

Hint, if medicine isnt one of them, you will be miserable during med school. I think psychiatry is great, but frankly, I just have little interest in medicine outside MH related issues. So, as appealing as that diversity is, it really doesn't do anything for me.

 

[haRtwin]

Ultimately, what if I work towards med school AND grad school and see where I end up going with it? My rationale is this, the extra science courses won't hurt me getting into grad school nor will they necessarily help. The research experience will actually help me with med school and I need it for grad school.

But this won't actually help your chances for a graduate program in psychology; it only helps toward the med school route. If you already took a statistics and methodology course, then taking additional science courses should do little, if anything, to strengthen your application with your current GPA.

I'd strongly encourage you to pursue a half-time research assistantship.

 

[WisNeuro]

But this won't actually help your chances for a graduate program in psychology; it only helps toward the med school route. If you already took a statistics and methodology course, then taking additional science courses should do little, if anything, to strengthen your application with your current GPA.

I'd strongly encourage you to pursue a half-time research assistantship.

Not necessarily. Some programs like a good deal of hard sciences. It won't be a make or break variable, but it could help a little. Although I do agree that a research assistantship is more high yield for grad school.

 

[haRtwin]

Not necessarily. Some programs like a good deal of hard sciences. It won't be a make or break variable, but it could help a little. Although I do agree that a research assistantship is more high yield for grad school.

Well said.

And I'd say that it can depend on the specific type of program and lab to which you're applying. It's similar to taking advanced math or statistics courses; they'll look favorable in certain situations as well.

 

[edieb]

Most of you know my story so I won't explain my situation all over again.

Is this a crazy idea.....

Since things are so chaotic for me currently and I have so many unknowns about the future, my situation with family , support and childcare etc.......

I need research experience for grad school before I can consider anything else. I need chem/phy prereqs for med school which was original plan. I am currently enrolled in Chemistry for next term coming up because I needed to do something, I cannot sit stagnant anymore and I have some GI bill left. What if I continue to knock out these prereqs, keep my GPA high (3.8, 3,9 psych) while at the same time exploring options for research experience and getting into that area until I find something .

Ultimately, what if I work towards med school AND grad school and see where I end up going with it? My rationale is this, the extra science courses won't hurt me getting into grad school nor will they necessarily help. The research experience will actually help me with med school and I need it for grad school.

I have to start moving forward and I may have a lot of unknown variables right now, but I am 30 years old lol...I have to push forward

You should just go to medical school and do psychiatry. A mentor always told me to aim for the highest degree possible and the hirearchy is MD/DO > PhD/PsyD > LCSW, etc. As other posters have said, you may not enjoy every aspect of medical school; however, there were many classes I took in my PhD program and many research projects I ran stats on that I didn't enjoy. Everything has some less pleasant attributes. However, it isn't forever and you can find something intersting about almost everything

Furthermore, a psychiatrist can do everything a Ph.D. can do plus you have the very in-demand ability to manage medication.

There is not much demand for clinical psychologists. If you look @ job ads, you will see a lot , if not most, postings advertise for "LCSW/PhD" or something akin to this wording. Also, if you read on here, you will see that people who work inside the Veterans' Administration (VA) and Department of Defense (DoD) say that they get many, many applications for each psychologist slot. On the other hand, the V.A. and DoD cannot even keep psychiatrists or Nurse Pracs for that matter. Also, where you work is representaive of the majority of the MH field -- most hosptials don't even hire psychologists. This should tell you something about the demand for each profession relative to the other

You also need to think about the pay for a psychologist. People like to say a psychologist makes 2x the national household average. However, that is comparing apples and oranges as most people start working at 22 year old or so and, as a psychologist, you are out of the workforce, probably taking on debt, for 12 years or so...

Also, with a PhD, you will have fairly limited geographic flexibility -- again, because of the poor job market. With an M.D./D.O., you can pretty much live anywhere you want. And with the earning potential of a M.D. you can simply manage medication in the AM and do therapy in the afternoon and still make much more than a psychologist and have much more demand for your services. Psychiatrists are even paid much, much more to do psychotherapy by the insurance companies than a psychologist.

Finally, residencies in psychiatry are very easy to obtain. However, because of the glut of psychology graduate students, your odds of even obtaining an APA-accredited internship are around 50 percent. And, without an APA internship, almost all lucrative jobs are not open to you. However, even with an APA internship, good jobs are still hard to find.

You should really think about your decision

 

[WisNeuro]

Finally, residencies in psychiatry are very easy to obtain. However, because of the glut of psychology graduate students, your odds of even obtaining an APA-accredited internship are around 50 percent. And, without an APA internship, almost all lucrative jobs are not open to you. However, even with an APA internship, good jobs are still hard to find.

You should really think about your decision

Man, you really hate clinical psych these days This number is not accurate, especially when you only look at PhD match rates.

 

[erg923]

Edie, your mentors advice is dumb.

The last thing we should be doing on here is encouraging those interested in the field to make Life altering choices based on status, hierarchy, and the notion that doctoral degree is the only logical endpoint. That's nonsense, obviously.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just a couple caveats. It really depends on what you want to do, these are not equivalent degrees, and MD/DOs can not do everything that a PhD does. Specifically, very few receive research training. As a rebuttal, we're not limited much at all geographically, especially if you are more of a general psychologist. Most of my friends have found jobs in the cities they want to live in. If you have a specialty, like neuropysch, it's harder, but very doable. I found a job in my top market easily, and they were willing to hold that job open for 9 months until I finished postdoc. I have only heard similar stories. Most hospitals don't hire psychologists? Every hospital I've worked at, VA/AMC/For profit has employed at least double digits of psychologists.

It's not for everyone, I agree, but it is hardly this post-apocalyptic nightmare that you make it out to be. If it's all about the money, sure, do something else, but you can make good money, and if it's fulfilling and fun, go for it. Your job should be about satisfaction. If writing 20 scripts a day satisfies you, great. I find satisfaction in my clinical work, research, and clinical supervision.

 

[psych84]

I have come to accept that some people's number 1 concern is money, and if that is the case, the medicine route makes sense. It also makes sense if you are absolutley fascinated by medicine. But if those things don't ring true, then I don't think the investment makes much sense.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Also, psychiatrists typically don't get to do assessments which can be a very useful and interesting. I do find medicine interesting so likely would have enjoyed med school. I am grateful that I became a psychologist and I firmly believe that our skill set is what makes the difference. I suggest doing a little research under core competencies for psychologists. This is one way to capture what psychologists do and might help with your decision making. I have seen different lists but they usually are pretty close.

 

[LupaCupcake]

I love this forum ^^
very talkative (wonder why.....)
A lot of good info and varying perspectives that make me think which is exactly what I need to do right now.

 

[psych84]

I have to say we are really lucky in Canada. I rarely hear about over-saturation in specific markets. Generally, there is always need. But the for-profit phenomenon is almost non-existant in Canada in terms of education.

 

[erg923]

I have to say we are really lucky in Canada. I rarely hear about over-saturation in specific markets. Generally, there is always need. But the for-profit phenomenon is almost non-existant in Canada in terms of education.

Molson beer sucks. I like mooses though.

 

[sockit]

op, have you been to the nontrad forum? there are some single moms there, i'm pretty sure. might be good to get their perspectives, too.

edit: molson beer does suck.

 

[edieb]

Just a couple caveats. It really depends on what you want to do, these are not equivalent degrees, and MD/DOs can not do everything that a PhD does. Specifically, very few receive research training. As a rebuttal, we're not limited much at all geographically, especially if you are more of a general psychologist. Most of my friends have found jobs in the cities they want to live in. If you have a specialty, like neuropysch, it's harder, but very doable. I found a job in my top market easily, and they were willing to hold that job open for 9 months until I finished postdoc. I have only heard similar stories. Most hospitals don't hire psychologists? Every hospital I've worked at, VA/AMC/For profit has employed at least double digits of psychologists.

It's not for everyone, I agree, but it is hardly this post-apocalyptic nightmare that you make it out to be. If it's all about the money, sure, do something else, but you can make good money, and if it's fulfilling and fun, go for it. Your job should be about satisfaction. If writing 20 scripts a day satisfies you, great. I find satisfaction in my clinical work, research, and clinical supervision.

With all due respect, I completely disagree that we aren't limited geographically. Maybe you can say we aren't limited if you are willing to take a crappy paying job that nobody else wants. However desirable jobs are difficult to find in desirable locales

if you search the form, there are constant discussions on this form about oversaturation in large cities (e.g., Chicago, New York Miami) and even entire states such as California. For psychiatrists, some markets may be a little more crowded than others, but there isn't any saturation. Also, with the huge numbers of new psychologists being minted every year (there aren't even enough internships for them all), the saturation level at best will remain static. Psychiatrists don't have to worry about this

Regarding research training, there are plenty of psychiatrists doing research in medical schools. When I interviewed for post-doc at University of Washington - Seattle SOM, psychiatrists were doing research like PhDs but getting paid much more. All one has to do is look at a medical school website to see psychiatrists verify MDs roles in research

 

[smalltownpsych]

I love this forum ^^
very talkative (wonder why.....)
A lot of good info and varying perspectives that make me think which is exactly what I need to do right now.

True. We love to talk and see things from multiple perspectives. Drives my wife crazy at times.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm sure some have problems finding jobs in certain areas, I just haven't seen that play through with any of my classmates/colleagues. And I don't know a single person making less than 80k from that group. Maybe we're just outliers. As for the research thing, yes, some MD's are trained in research, they are by far the outliers. Especially ones that are trained to do research well.

I'm not saying that psychiatry isn't a good career choice, just that it is not the same as psychology, and should not be viewed as the superior career choice to such. It's a ridiculous assertion.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think it probably depends on how we're defining "limited." If you're wanting a "pre-packaged" job, then yes, psychologists are going to be limited; it's tough for us to move to any state in the US and expect to be able to immediately find an open staff position with good pay and solid benefits. Although even psychiatrists may not be able to find the type of work they're looking for in such a situation; they'll likely be able to find a job, yes, but it may require primarily inpatient work when they'd rather see outpatients, may be heavily med-management based when they'd rather do some therapy, may have ridiculous RVU reqs, etc. But I think in general, folks would agree that psychiatrists have it better/easier in this respect.

With psychology, it may take a bit more creativity, and you may need to essentially cobble together various opportunities if you're dead-set on living in a location that doesn't have any desirable openings at that moment. Then again, I don't know of any occupation in which this isn't the case, particularly when those occupations are highly-specialized. But if you're good at what you do, people will notice (and it also helps if you let them see/know that you're good).

 

[smalltownpsych]

Lupa, maybe you should also post something like this on the psychiatrist forum to get their perspective.

 

[PsychBoxe]

Molson beer sucks. I like mooses though.

Molson Canadian is drinkable.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Molson is the Corona of Canada….ugh.

 

[haRtwin]

I prefer Labatt Blue to Molson.

 

[sockit]

i think the calculus might be a little different for some of us (ie. people who haven't gone straight through from undergrad), re timelines for one thing, and caregiving of any kind affects how you look at benefits/costs, and the constraints you deal with, imo.

that said, there are a couple of people in my program, older than me (this is something special, believe me) who do have kids and have been able to get great experience RAing, while managing their course load. it's not easy (they complain a lot) but they're doing it. they do seem to have support from partners though. of course, that is two people i'm talking about, everyone's experience is different.

 

[sockit]

Molson Canadian is drinkable.

just because you can drink something doesn't mean you should. guinness ftw

 

[erg923]

The hats make the average Canadian resemble a beaver, in my humble opinion.

 

[psych84]

Canada > USA, let's just agree on that.

 

[PsychBoxe]

just because you can drink something doesn't mean you should. guinness ftw

#gradschoolbudget

 

[Sanman]

I am going to fall somwherr on the middle of all this. Psychology is not doomed, but being a generalist is a crapshoot. There are certain areas that will continue to do well and provide a good living, but you cannot just walkout with a degree and expect a job to be handed to you. Psychiatrists have more options. I can say this, all the psychologists I work with are all doing well, but the psych NPs all have more outpt opportunities and overall options. Then again, they have more red tape too. Medication comes with more management headaches.

Also, LaBatt is better than Molson, but for my money I drink Aventinus...real beer.

 

[LupaCupcake]

Does no one drink dry white wine? Just saying...

and the beer in Germany would give Canada a run for their beer money

 

[psych84]

I am going to fall somwherr on the middle of all this. Psychology is not doomed, but being a generalist is a crapshoot. There are certain areas that will continue to do well and provide a good living, but you cannot just walkout with a degree and expect a job to be handed to you. Psychiatrists have more options. I can say this, all the psychologists I work with are all doing well, but the psych NPs all have more outpt opportunities and overall options. Then again, they have more red tape too. Medication comes with more management headaches.

Also, LaBatt is better than Molson, but for my money I drink Aventinus...real beer.

What's a "generalist" in Psychology? I guess a clinical or counselling psychologists who sees all kinds of patients ?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Most of the current training in psychology is for a generalist practitioner. Think of the medical model of a GP verses a specialist. Specialties are developing in our field such as Neuropsychologist, Forensic Psychologist, Child Psychologist, Health Psychologist. Some of these are more structured and formally recognized. Some see the field as a whole moving in the direction of greater specialization as we go. Trauma specialty, adolescent specialty, Eating disorders, addictions, OCD, hoarding, etc.
In my current practice, I am very much a generalist and don't have much of an option to refer to a specialist even when I would want to.

 

[NMoren]

Well, OP I can't give you advice seeing as I'm on the same boat (somewhat). I think what a lot of us forget is that we'll be done studying 6-10 years from now and there's no saying how the job market will be then. It's really scary. On one hand, medicine seems to be a safe job (although you wouldn't think so, reading their forum posts...so much doom and gloom), on the other, nobody can imagine what will happen in 10 years. Think about how things were back in 2004 and how they are today, a lot can change while you study. I try to keep this in mind to not be swayed by salary alone (Because yes, salaries in medicine are sexy). I guess it's all about trying to do something you're truly passionate about, or at least something that interests you enough to work hard for it. Good luck, OP!