Just the COMLEX or will I need both?

[MJS4878]

Hey everyone I am an OMS2 and am starting to get a study plan together for boards. Even before coming to medical school I wanted to go into orthopedic surgery and I know as a DO, my best shot would be at AOA programs. In the past most people going to an AOA program put all efforts into the COMLEX and that was what I planned to do as well. However, with this merger the future seems a little more unknown and I wasn't sure if this would affect the boards at all? I'd really appreciate any insight!

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[AMEHigh]

Take both.

You might change your mind about the specialty you want.

Just take plenty of practice exams and if you're getting decent scores, definitely take usmle.

 

[Ddrumem]

Agree completely. Keep doors open. If you do terrible on usmle aoa programs won't know. If you study for usmle you will be more than prepared for comlex

 

[MJS4878]

I worry that focusing on the USMLE will negatively affect the COMLEX, since I plan to apply AOA that's the exam they're more concerned with. Is that not something I should worry about?

 

[Ddrumem]

By studying for usmle you will have a much better grasp on material. i.e. More biochem knowledge helps understanding many disease processes. By studying usmle you are still focusing on comlex, going above and beyond imo. Some of comlex level one is laughable after having taken usmle. Do both uworld and comquest with savarese and you will definetly kill comlex 1

 

[Goro]

IF you do well in your pre-clinical studies (like 80-85% and better) then I recommend taking USMLE as it opens up more ACGME residencies for you.

Hey everyone I am an OMS2 and am starting to get a study plan together for boards. Even before coming to medical school I wanted to go into orthopedic surgery and I know as a DO, my best shot would be at AOA programs. In the past most people going to an AOA program put all efforts into the COMLEX and that was what I planned to do as well. However, with this merger the future seems a little more unknown and I wasn't sure if this would affect the boards at all? I'd really appreciate any insight!

 

[Seth Joo]

Hey everyone I am an OMS2 and am starting to get a study plan together for boards. Even before coming to medical school I wanted to go into orthopedic surgery and I know as a DO, my best shot would be at AOA programs. In the past most people going to an AOA program put all efforts into the COMLEX and that was what I planned to do as well. However, with this merger the future seems a little more unknown and I wasn't sure if this would affect the boards at all? I'd really appreciate any insight!

For ACGME Orthopedic Surgery you will need to take the USMLE at most programs.

 

[ortnakas]

IF you do well in your pre-clinical studies (like 80-85% and better) then I recommend taking USMLE as it opens up more ACGME residencies for you.

@Goro -- is 80-85% generally your definition of a student capable of taking the USMLE? I'm planning on it to prevent ending up being geographically/ACGME-restricted, especially since nobody seems quite certain how the 2018 match will go down with the pending merger. My school doesn't restrict who's allowed to take it, but does recommend you only do so if you're a "strong student," and I've never been quite sure what that means.

For ACGME Orthopedic Surgery you will need to take the USMLE at most programs.

OP seems to be planning on applying AOA.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I have heard far more fellow students say they wish they had taken the USMLE than say they are glad they only took the COMLEX. At my school, there is a huge number applying to ortho. Like 20 or more. Though I wish they would, they aren't all matching. And I can't think of a single one who I would say "nah they don't have a chance." all have great grades, great boards, and great personalities. I vote take it to keep options open.

 

[Goro]

AOA residencies are more common in some areas than others. So if you're geographically restricted, then taking USMLE is advised.

When I say good student, I mean one who is doing > 85% in all his/her pre-clinical courses, but ESPECIALLY in the Basic Sciences.

Weaker students should stick with COMLEX.

Plenty of less competitive ACGME residencies accept COMLEX.

@Goro -- is 80-85% generally your definition of a student capable of taking the USMLE? I'm planning on it to prevent ending up being geographically/ACGME-restricted, especially since nobody seems quite certain how the 2018 match will go down with the pending merger. My school doesn't restrict who's allowed to take it, but does recommend you only do so if you're a "strong student," and I've never been quite sure what that means.

OP seems to be planning on applying AOA.

 

[MJS4878]

I have heard far more fellow students say they wish they had taken the USMLE than say they are glad they only took the COMLEX. At my school, there is a huge number applying to ortho. Like 20 or more. Though I wish they would, they aren't all matching. And I can't think of a single one who I would say "nah they don't have a chance." all have great grades, great boards, and great personalities. I vote take it to keep options open.

It seems to be growing immensely in popularity. My class is similar with a lot of qualified people that are interested.

I've done well in all of my preclinical classes, so maybe the best thing is to just take both to be safe. Thanks everyone for the input

 

[DrEnderW]

I worry that focusing on the USMLE will negatively affect the COMLEX, since I plan to apply AOA that's the exam they're more concerned with. Is that not something I should worry about?

In my experience, and by what I've gathered from fellow students that scored 240+/600+, that is completely false. I actually think it's the complete opposite. Aside from the impressively poorer quality of comlex vignettes, the only real difference is OMM. My hardest biochem questions were on comlex and I walked away feeling like comlex was more difficult.

The bottom line is, if you know the material, you'll do well on both exams. I HIGHLY recommend using USMLE resources: First Aid, Pathoma, and UWorld. Combank is subpar in every aspect. The grammar is awful, it's riddled with errors, and the explanations are not as detailed or helpful compared to UWorld. You cannot "get use" to oddball comlex questions... their stupid questions will always be vague, nonsensical, and frustrating.

I do suggest taking COMSAE exams, reading Savarese green book, and knowing OMM well. Seeing the differences in format and timing is worth it. Don't sell yourself short... you have 1 opportunity to do this right and it will impact your career path forever. Unlike other jobs, once you're in a specialty/program you are there... there's no switching industries, etc. The residency merger only further reinforces why you should take the usmle.

Regardless of what you hear, the usmle is the gold standard test. Even if an acgme program accepts comlex, it is better to have a solid usmle score to show with it. I'm almost 100% only applying AOA and preparing to take the usmle from day 1 is why I got a 2+ standard dev score on comlex and have the confidence that my board scores won't hold me back for anywhere I apply. Do the same!

 

[Oblique]

Take USMLE. You'll need it for certain rotation sites as well when you apply on VSAS.

 

[FutureInternist]

Take USMLE, study OMM from Savarese book & brush up on OB & Peds a little more from "Boards & Wards" over 3-4 days & then take COMLEX

Studying for USMLE will more than prepare you for the COMLEX & the "drop" in knowledge in the 3-4 days will still have you above the bar for COMLEX

 

[ortnakas]

Take USMLE, study OMM from Savarese book & brush up on OB & Peds a little more from "Boards & Wards" over 3-4 days & then take COMLEX

Studying for USMLE will more than prepare you for the COMLEX & the "drop" in knowledge in the 3-4 days will still have you above the bar for COMLEX

You recommend "Boards and Wards" for Step/Level 1? Just curious-- I was under the impression that it was a step 2 book.

 

[FutureInternist]

You recommend "Boards and Wards" for Step/Level 1? Just curious-- I was under the impression that it was a step 2 book.

Sorry I thought you were talking about Step 2
Disregard B&W but rest still applies

 

[deleted564680]

This used to be a question worth arguing, but in 2015 with the merger...all students should take the USMLE. You never know if you'll change your mind on your specialty and PDs like to compare apples to apples.
Also, I'm a D.O. and love it, but we should ALL be able to pass the USMLE. Especially now that people are clamoring for NPs to take the USMLE or a version of it to "prove" that they can be providers. If we all don't take it and pass it then what does that say?

 

[Mjolner]

This used to be a question worth arguing, but in 2015 with the merger...all students should take the USMLE. You never know if you'll change your mind on your specialty and PDs like to compare apples to apples.
Also, I'm a D.O. and love it, but we should ALL be able to pass the USMLE. Especially now that people are clamoring for NPs to take the USMLE or a version of it to "prove" that they can be providers. If we all don't take it and pass it then what does that say?

All "providers" should take the USMLE if they want to practice without supervision at some point.
One test to rule them all...

 

[GUH]

This used to be a question worth arguing, but in 2015 with the merger...all students should take the USMLE. You never know if you'll change your mind on your specialty and PDs like to compare apples to apples.
Also, I'm a D.O. and love it, but we should ALL be able to pass the USMLE. Especially now that people are clamoring for NPs to take the USMLE or a version of it to "prove" that they can be providers. If we all don't take it and pass it then what does that say?

Not all DO students should take the USMLE. Even if you can pass, a 199 Step 1 doesn't seem likely to be a huge boost to your application (correct me if you have evidence to the contrary). Take it if you can do well on it.
Like it or not, COMLEX is still the licensing exam for DOs.
In this case, it sounds like the poster is an above-average student applying to a competitive specialty so it would likely be helpful to take the USMLE.

 

[deleted564680]

We as DOs need to stop using the COMLEX as a crutch. You should score equally well on both tests. To not take USMLE makes it seem like you are scared of the USMLE and thus MDs have the right to judge your ability. Why not be on equal footing?
You bring up getting a 199 but if that's the case that person is going to barely pass comlex as well and at least they showed they passed usmle. I'd take someone with a 410 and 199 over a 430 and no usmle.

 

[GUH]

We as DOs need to stop using the COMLEX as a crutch. You should score equally well on both tests. To not take USMLE makes it seem like you are scared of the USMLE and thus MDs have the right to judge your ability. Why not be on equal footing?
You bring up getting a 199 but if that's the case that person is going to barely pass comlex as well and at least they showed they passed usmle. I'd take someone with a 410 and 199 over a 430 and no usmle.

Who's using COMLEX as a crutch? It is our required licensing exam. Again, if you have evidence that a sub-200 passing USMLE score actually significantly boosts an application, please show it. I'm sure many of us would benefit. If we are relying on personal opinions and experience, I have several classmates who did well on COMLEX and barely squeaked by on the USMLE. We'll see how they match but none of them expect to use their sub-200 USMLE passing score as a major selling point in their applications. Others performed much better on the USMLE than the COMLEX, so it isn't necessarily true that the scores always approximate each other.

 

[deleted564680]

What I mean is that I completely understand we are boarded by the COMLEX, but honestly if you can't pass the USMLE then I wouldn't want you practicing medicine at all until you can pass it. This is my opinion. No facts. Just want us to prove we're all equal.

Not sure why your classmates had such varying scores. I also did give an example of when a 199 would help you. If you were a person who had a 410 and 199 vs. a 430 and didn't take USMLE, I bet the PD would take the first applicant because he/she at least passed the USMLE.

If I was a PD, I would wonder why someone would apply to an ACGME residency and did not take USMLE.

Also, if you apply AOA, you don't report your USMLE anyway.

I don't see any reason to not take the USMLE unless you're just really trying to "hide" your USMLE inadequacy/fear.

 

[Makati2008]

What I mean is that I completely understand we are boarded by the COMLEX, but honestly if you can't pass the USMLE then I wouldn't want you practicing medicine at all until you can pass it. This is my opinion. No facts. Just want us to prove we're all equal.

Not sure why your classmates had such varying scores. I also did give an example of when a 199 would help you. If you were a person who had a 410 and 199 vs. a 430 and didn't take USMLE, I bet the PD would take the first applicant because he/she at least passed the USMLE.

If I was a PD, I would wonder why someone would apply to an ACGME residency and did not take USMLE.

Also, if you apply AOA, you don't report your USMLE anyway.

I don't see any reason to not take the USMLE unless you're just really trying to "hide" your USMLE inadequacy/fear.

Most PDs would not take either applicant in your scenario.

 

[deleted564680]

Most PDs would not take either applicant in your scenario.

True, but those people match somewhere...idk where.

 

[Makati2008]

True, but those people match somewhere...idk where.

Usually lower tier/malignant programs or they SOAP

 

[asdf123g]

This used to be a question worth arguing, but in 2015 with the merger...all students should take the USMLE. You never know if you'll change your mind on your specialty and PDs like to compare apples to apples.
Also, I'm a D.O. and love it, but we should ALL be able to pass the USMLE. Especially now that people are clamoring for NPs to take the USMLE or a version of it to "prove" that they can be providers. If we all don't take it and pass it then what does that say?

what about DO's doing military match?

 

[GUH]

What I mean is that I completely understand we are boarded by the COMLEX, but honestly if you can't pass the USMLE then I wouldn't want you practicing medicine at all until you can pass it.

"Take the USMLE regardless of whether you'll pass because I don't want you to be a doctor if you can't pass it" is definitely not going to convince below-average students to take the exam.

 

[deleted564680]

"Take the USMLE regardless of whether you'll pass because I don't want you to be a doctor if you can't pass it" is definitely not going to convince below-average students to take the exam.

People used to get motivated to do better when they saw success. Now, people want success handed to them.

 

[GUH]

People used to get motivated to do better when they saw success. Now, people want success handed to them.

I'm not sure how that applies since COMLEX has been the licensing exam for DOs for a long time.

 

[randomguy123456]

Hey everyone I am an OMS2 and am starting to get a study plan together for boards. Even before coming to medical school I wanted to go into orthopedic surgery and I know as a DO, my best shot would be at AOA programs. In the past most people going to an AOA program put all efforts into the COMLEX and that was what I planned to do as well. However, with this merger the future seems a little more unknown and I wasn't sure if this would affect the boards at all? I'd really appreciate any insight!

D.O.medical students tend to take both COMLEX and USMLE to make their applications competitive. I would suggest you to do the same if you want the more competitive residency spots. Good luck my friend.

 

[Makati2008]

People used to get motivated to do better when they saw success. Now, people want success handed to them.

Smh. I don't know what else to say.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[abolt18]

Just to echo most everyone else, if you're in the top third of your class you can probably do well enough or even excel on the USMLE. Preparing for the USMLE will give you far greater preparation for the COMLEX. It requires a stronger foundation of basic sciences and many testing skills. Now if you're taking practice tests and doing terribly, you have to decide if it's with taking the USMLE. Plan for both, prepare for both, if you're not meeting your preferred threshold (mine was 230) you have to decide if it's worth it.

 

[sunealoneal]

People used to get motivated to do better when they saw success. Now, people want success handed to them.

Lol, what complete schlock. People care about securing a residency and getting a job. Not about appeasing some ideal. I wish the COMLEX didn't exist, but as long as it does there will be people who will choose to only take that exam for very practical reasons.

 

[deleted564680]

Lol, what complete schlock. People care about securing a residency and getting a job. Not about appeasing some ideal. I wish the COMLEX didn't exist, but as long as it does there will be people who will choose to only take that exam for very practical reasons.

Just proving my point. Motivated to "do the minimum." Some people still do have ideals and take pride in succeeding and performing highly, especially in regard to their peers/competition. I'm sorry that you don't.

 

[Mjolner]

Lol, what complete schlock. People care about securing a residency and getting a job. Not about appeasing some ideal. I wish the COMLEX didn't exist, but as long as it does there will be people who will choose to only take that exam for very practical reasons.

If you won't take the MD boards because you're afraid of doing poorly compared to your colleagues, but you want to be treated the same as a MD, it will never happen. Let's all take the same tests and leave easy mode for those who didn't go to medical school.
And I'm saying this as a future DO. They're giving us a chance to show that we are equally well trained and so many are running scared from it and making the other side's argument for them.

 

[Makati2008]

Just proving my point. Motivated to "do the minimum." Some people still do have ideals and take pride in succeeding and performing highly, especially in regard to their peers/competition. I'm sorry that you don't.

It's not doing the minimum for everyone, it's being strategic. Why take the USMLE and you are NOT performing as well as your MD counterparts (on practice testing or uworld)? You would only hurt yourself in that scenario.


If you are doing well on the USMLE practice material, take both. I've said that for years.

Personally, I didn't take both and I am in an acgme program.

Before you label me as one of the "lazies", I did extremely well on my residency inservice-98 percentile. So I am all about hard work but you have to know when/how to stack the deck in your favor.

 

[Makati2008]

If you won't take the MD boards because you're afraid of doing poorly compared to your colleagues, but you want to be treated the same as a MD, it will never happen. Let's all take the same tests and leave easy mode for those who didn't go to medical school.
And I'm saying this as a future DO. They're giving us a chance to show that we are equally well trained and so many are running scared from it and making the other side's argument for them.

Until certain programs/specialities start taking DOs on a regular basis, we won't be considered equal. I've friends that made in the 260/270 ranges that were rejected from programs such as UNC/Vandy. Folks with VERY strong overall apps.

I'm willing to bet it was because of them being DOs....

 

[Mjolner]

Until certain programs/specialities start taking DOs on a regular basis, we won't be considered equal. I've friends that made in the 260/270 ranges that were rejected from programs such as UNC/Vandy. Folks with VERY strong overall apps.

I'm willing to bet it was because of them being DOs....

Sure. Because lots of programs are aware that a LOT of DOs dodge USMLE. That hurts our overall brand which leads to some PDs questioning our brand. It's a vicious cycle and you can't expect MDs to help us break out of it. It's up to us to do that and that requires proving we're up to the task.

 

[Makati2008]

Sure. Because lots of programs are aware that a LOT of DOs dodge USMLE. That hurts our overall brand which leads to some PDs questioning our brand. It's a vicious cycle and you can't expect MDs to help us break out of it. It's up to us to do that and that requires proving we're up to the task.

I disagree here. Unfortunately, there will be some PDs that look at DOs as second rate students/physicians that for some reason failed to get into a MD school. People scoring that high with strong apps, have proven they can keep up with their counterparts.

I wonder if ERAS blinded school/degree type if you would see more DOs in historically unfriendly places.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

People used to get motivated to do better when they saw success. Now, people want success handed to them.

And did this post make you feel better about yourself?

 

[Mjolner]

I disagree here. Unfortunately, there will be some PDs that look at DOs as second rate students/physicians that for some reason failed to get into a MD school. People scoring that high with strong apps, have proven they can keep up with their counterparts.

I wonder if ERAS blinded school/degree type if you would see more DOs in historically unfriendly places.

It usually is a concern about the variation in our training from what I've been able to gather.

 

[deleted564680]

It stems from them thinking we have poor clinical years and rotations. For the majority of DO students, they are right. It's a shame that so many schools can be accredited when they don't even provide full 3rd and 4th year rotations, let alone at a reputable hospital.

 

[Makati2008]

It usually is a concern about the variation in our training from what I've been able to gather.

I'll use EM as an example, we have SLOEs that can compare us vs MD students. Still some programs won't offer folks with Sloes that honored at very high quality programs interviews. So why do these said programs discriminate. I think it's because they see DO or IMG and screen them out.

 

[sunealoneal]

Just proving my point. Motivated to "do the minimum." Some people still do have ideals and take pride in succeeding and performing highly, especially in regard to their peers/competition. I'm sorry that you don't.

I know you felt really good when you sent that, but people are concerned about their livelihoods, not about a "competition".

If you won't take the MD boards because you're afraid of doing poorly compared to your colleagues, but you want to be treated the same as a MD, it will never happen. Let's all take the same tests and leave easy mode for those who didn't go to medical school.
And I'm saying this as a future DO. They're giving us a chance to show that we are equally well trained and so many are running scared from it and making the other side's argument for them.

I agree, and the only way to handle that is to remove the COMLEX completely (which will never happen). As long as there is a reliable pathway to a career, people are going take it. It'd be impractical not to.

 

[deleted564680]

We both agree that the COMLEX needs to die then
My thoughts were all MD/DO take the 7 block USMLE and then DO students take an 8th block that is the new "COMLEX" that has the OMM/Osteopathic questions. DO's would have to pass both.

 

[Mjolner]

I agree, and the only way to handle that is to remove the COMLEX completely (which will never happen). As long as there is a reliable pathway to a career, people are going take it. It'd be impractical not to.

Or just require USMLE for ACGME rotations.
Comlex will ALWAYS be around. It's a cash cow. It can exist as a DO exit exam and I'd be ok with that.

 

[GUH]

I'll use EM as an example, we have SLOEs that can compare us vs MD students. Still some programs won't offer folks with Sloes that honored at very high quality programs interviews. So why do these said programs discriminate. I think it's because they see DO or IMG and screen them out.

Lazy programs with an abundance of applications will inevitably look for quick ways to screen out applicants. One easy way to do this is to categorically send DOs to the circular file regardless of how well-qualified they are. The programs can always use their ignorance about rotation quality as an excuse.

If you won't take the MD boards because you're afraid of doing poorly compared to your colleagues, but you want to be treated the same as a MD, it will never happen. Let's all take the same tests and leave easy mode for those who didn't go to medical school.
And I'm saying this as a future DO. They're giving us a chance to show that we are equally well trained and so many are running scared from it and making the other side's argument for them.

"Let's make everyone do it regardless of whether it helps or harms their careers because the other guys are doing it and it's hard" is not a compelling argument. Plenty of DOs have had successful careers without the USMLE.
Take the USMLE if you are going to do well on it because it will help your career and reflect well on DOs in general.

 

[Mjolner]

"Let's make everyone do it regardless of whether it helps or harms their careers because the other guys are doing it and it's hard" is not a compelling argument. Plenty of DOs have had successful careers without the USMLE.
Take the USMLE if you are going to do well on it because it will help your career and reflect well on DOs in general.

Agreed. But. The fact that so many don't take it and the fact that the #1 reason they don't is because they know they won't do well on it, reflects poorly on all DOs.