KCUMB vs WesternU vs PCOM vs UMDNJ

[moca83]

I've read several threads on the pros of these schools and feel that they are all excellent programs. However, I'm interested to hear if there are any red flags in these programs. What are important factors when considering schools that appear superficially equal? Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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[drctother]

I've read several threads on the pros of these schools and feel that they are all excellent programs. However, I'm interested to hear if there are any red flags in these programs. What are important factors when considering schools that appear superficially equal? Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I will be attending Western in August and I chose it over another acceptance. I love everything about it.....except the cost. Thats the only real thing I can see people complaining about. Its $47,000 tuition this year. Everything else is good if not superior to many of the other schools (location, curriculum, rotations etc)

 

[Sinfest]

Try to narrow it down to two programs on your own. IMO it'll make it easier for us to give you pertinent information and easier for you to make a choice in the end.

Where are you from? Do you want to stay near loved ones? Are you getting in-state tuition at UMDNJ? At which programs did you walk away feeling good?

 

[moca83]

I will be attending Western in August and I chose it over another acceptance. I love everything about it.....except the cost. Thats the only real thing I can see people complaining about. Its $47,000 tuition this year. Everything else is good if not superior to many of the other schools (location, curriculum, rotations etc)

I agree with you in several respects. I have a friend who is starting his second year and he said they just changed the curriculum format from power point lecture to a case-based approach which hd loves, but there are still kinks in the system. The immediate location isn't all that great but the proximity to everything you could image is definitely there. As for the rotations, I've heard they are well supported, you're kinda on your own after your second year. Can you learn anything by visiting that you can't find online? Also, how does western compare to PCOM or KCUMB? Thanks

 

[moca83]

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[Iswhatis]

Yet another X vs Y.

OK. In my best Obama voice, "Here's the deal."

Picking a school should be based on your experience during interview day, period. This whole process is like the verbal section - there may not be an objective answer, but one just feels better than the other. Only you know where you want to go, just go with your gut...but anyway.

You obviously wont be attending KCUMB if you dislike everything about it except for one stellar professor, so it's down to Western or PCOM.

There, helped you narrow it down.

 

[Sinfest]

The only potential negatives are the rotation sites and recent CA legislation grouping DOs with natropaths.

http://www.opsc.org/

Governor Schwarzenegger on August 17th signed into law SB 1050 (Yee, D-San Francisco), legislation sponsored by the Osteopathic Physicians & Surgeons of California (OPSC) to remove the two naturopathic doctor positions from the Osteopathic Medical Board of California (OMBC) and to separate the functions of the Naturopathic Medicine Committee (NMC) from those of the OMBC.

OPSC is extremely pleased with the outcome of this more than year-long intensive effort. In addition to removing the two naturopathic doctor positions, the bill adds two public members to the OMBC and clarifies that the NMC is solely responsible for the licensure and oversight of naturopathic doctors. The legislation goes into effect January 1, 2011. Full bill language may be found at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_1001-1050/sb_1050_bill_20100817_chaptered.html...

 

[megathunder]

Seems like you'd be pretty happy at Western. It's a great school so you can't go wrong. The only thing I'd advise about them is they're switching to case-based learning next year but you already knew that.

Honestly, you have a great selection of schools there you can't really go wrong. If weather and family are a big deal stick with Western. I'm actually making the exact opposite move for the exact opposite reason haha.

 

[moca83]

http://www.opsc.org/

This link is AMAZING! Thanks a lot!

 

[Dr Yiot]

Yet another X vs Y.

OK. In my best Obama voice, "Here's the deal."

Picking a school should be based on your experience during interview day, period. This whole process is like the verbal section - there may not be an objective answer, but one just feels better than the other. Only you know where you want to go, just go with your gut...but anyway.

You obviously wont be attending KCUMB if you dislike everything about it except for one stellar professor, so it's down to Western or PCOM.

There, helped you narrow it down.

I have to strongly disagree. Bad advice period. You don't go by feel of your interview day. Schools can be really good at selling themselves and making u believe ur a great fit for them etc.

In order of importance.

Rotation sites
Cost
Location
Comfort feel etc (including is it close to family etc.)

 

[moca83]

I have to strongly disagree. Bad advice period. You don't go by feel of your interview day. Schools can be really good at selling themselves and making u believe ur a great fit for them etc.

In order of importance.

Rotation sites
Cost
Location
Comfort feel etc (including is it close to family etc.)

How does one go about evaluating good rotation sites vs bad ones? Also, wouldn't you want to throw curriculum into the mix as well since your learning experience might be night and day? Thanks!

 

[Dr Yiot]

How does one go about evaluating good rotation sites vs bad ones? Also, wouldn't you want to throw curriculum into the mix as well since your learning experience might be night and day? Thanks!

I would research where they are done. Click on the hospitals website and view how large it is. How many beds. Are there residency programs affiliated. Does it seem you would get a good amount of pathology. I know this might be difficult to discovr but u wouldn't believe what u can find on the net.

Other things to look at.
Are electives offered in your third year(its best when there are, for residency)
Do you set up most electives? Is it a lottery? Or does the school do the leg work and tell you where your going.
Also, does the school pay for rotation sites?
I won't get into community vs. Academic centers cause there's pros and cons to each.

Hopefully I helped you out. I would also try and get in touch with third or fourth year students at these schools and askthem a few questions regarding rotations etc.

With your reference to curriculumn. Your first two years the material you learn is the same and every school will do a good job teaching it to you. Most of the work and learning is up to you whether systems based or traditional lecture based. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it but it can definitly factor into your decision. Imo its just not a super important factor but should still be considered. Unless its pbl or isp I would then really put that into the equation and see if u could learn in that curriculumn.

 

[Iswhatis]

I have to strongly disagree. Bad advice period. You don't go by feel of your interview day. Schools can be really good at selling themselves and making u believe ur a great fit for them etc.

In order of importance.

Rotation sites
Cost
Location
Comfort feel etc (including is it close to family etc.)

In reality, rotation sites should have been discussed during your interview. This is what plays into the 'feel'.

There are many excellent rotation sites with < 100 beds, and many crappy ones with 500 or more. The amount of pathology that arrives is part of the puzzle, but being able to actually do things instead of watching all day is absolutely essential in my book. In other words, don't cross off a school because of a rural rotation site.

Again, none of us know you or were there during your interview. As I've said before on these types of threads, you have many difficult decisions to becoming a doctor. In my opinion, this is one that cannot be done through purely objective research. Go with your gut, you'll be happier in the end.

 

[WDeagle]

Id go PCOM or KCUMB. Im a KCUMB myself. The only DO school that i would have picked over KCUMB is PCOM. In my opinion they are #1 and #2 with a few others that are good quality schools.

 

[Dr Yiot]

In reality, rotation sites should have been discussed during your interview. This is what plays into the 'feel'.

There are many excellent rotation sites with < 100 beds, and many crappy ones with 500 or more. The amount of pathology that arrives is part of the puzzle, but being able to actually do things instead of watching all day is absolutely essential in my book. In other words, don't cross off a school because of a rural rotation site.

Again, none of us know you or were there during your interview. As I've said before on these types of threads, you have many difficult decisions to becoming a doctor. In my opinion, this is one that cannot be done through purely objective research. Go with your gut, you'll be happier in the end.

Unless you didnt research rotation sites or they arent listed on the site of the school, i don't know why they would be brought up during your interview? if I were the interviewer I would feel like you were waisting my time discussing something that is listed on the schools website and can be researched on your own time.

regarding quality of rotation sites, i can play devils advocate all day long regarding your stance on them. Yes, is it great that you get to do more? sure but also, at larger academic centers you get to see things you would never see at some of the community hospitals. These large research institutions get all of the research based cases and you are exposed to much more. There are excellent community hospitals out there, please dont think that i am saying there arent any. however, the more complex advanced, rare procedures will "most likely" (notice the most likely and not always) be done at larger academic hospitals.

this is NOT my stance on what I would prefer personally. I would much rather work in a community based hospital and have more hands on experience as you have stated. However there are positive and negative aspects to each healthcare environment. You have to understand some of the more difficult cases will be sent elsewhere but yes, i would much rather be doing something than sitting around all day.

and I think if he could easily "go with his gut" he wouldnt be here making this thread asking for our advice. i think he's here cause he probably felt good at most of the schools and is having a hard time deciding.

 

[Black Adder]

I have to strongly disagree. Bad advice period. You don't go by feel of your interview day. Schools can be really good at selling themselves and making u believe ur a great fit for them etc.

In order of importance.

Rotation sites
Cost
Location
Comfort feel etc (including is it close to family etc.)

This is a good list to go by when deciding what school to attend. Cost of attendance should be a HUGE factor in picking a school.... I realize as a premed the mindsight is to just get into medschool PERIOD, regardless of the cost, but definitely look into this. I don't have much to complain about Western, but the tuition is pretty insane and now that it's pretty much turning into a PBL school (it's called "CBL"... but it's basically just a semantic difference...) I'm not sure how they can justify the astronomically high tuition.

As for rotation sites, definitely do your research and ask questions during interviews.... but honestly, you really won't get much of an idea of what qualifies as a "good" rotation site as a permed from talking to the admissions committee and the first and second years who guide you around during interview day (I'm a first year, and have just a cursory understanding of our rotations...). The only real way to gauge the quality of the rotations would be to contact 3rd and 4th years from those schools and get their honest opinions about the rotations they've been on.

 

[moca83]

Speaking of CBL/PBL, isn't that pretty much the gold standard of learning/teaching in med schools now? I recently saw some data on an MD school that made the switch from traditional lectures to PBL and their step 1 scores jumped significantly every year thereafter.

Also, so what I'm gathering is that it's pretty much wasted effort to try to assess rotation sites because it's based off other students first hand knowledge...

 

[Dr Yiot]

Speaking of CBL/PBL, isn't that pretty much the gold standard of learning/teaching in med schools now? I recently saw some data on an MD school that made the switch from traditional lectures to PBL and their step 1 scores jumped significantly every year thereafter.

Also, so what I'm gathering is that it's pretty much wasted effort to try to assess rotation sites because it's based off other students first hand knowledge...

sort of, but you can bet that the more established schools will have more rotation sites established. I would try and get in touch with some 3rd or 4th years and speak with them. all the schools youve listed probably have some excellent rotations though.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Speaking of CBL/PBL, isn't that pretty much the gold standard of learning/teaching in med schools now? I recently saw some data on an MD school that made the switch from traditional lectures to PBL and their step 1 scores jumped significantly every year thereafter.

Also, so what I'm gathering is that it's pretty much wasted effort to try to assess rotation sites because it's based off other students first hand knowledge...

To rank rotation spots, I look at whether the school operates their own hospital or has very very strong affiliations with one nearby. If so, awesome, if not, that's a negative.

The next thing to look at is whether there are affiliated residencies at that hospital. I use this to look up AOA residency spots by state. This is important as you can spend more time rotating/networking in the institution and potentially do more audition rotations, get letters of rec, do research, jump through hoops, etc.

Other more minor things to keep in mind are whether other schools rotate at the affiliated hospital, whether the rotation model relies on preceptors, whether rotations are based in large research institutions, and convenience. Never underestimate convenience! You don't want to be flying from SFO to Michigan every few weeks 3rd year, and 4th year, it is a lot easier on your sanity (and pocketbook) to schedule audition rotations near the school as opposed to a plane ride away.

If I had to rank the above schools based on rotations, I'd say

1) UMDNJ
1) PCOM
3) Western
4) KCUMB

But I also wouldn't say there is a huge dropoff between any of the above schools. I personally chose Western as, besides loving the school, I want to end up in CA and feel it gives me the best shot at a CA residency. If you know where you want to practice, I'd say go to the closest school as school reputation seems to be very region-centric.

 

[megathunder]

Speaking of CBL/PBL, isn't that pretty much the gold standard of learning/teaching in med schools now? I recently saw some data on an MD school that made the switch from traditional lectures to PBL and their step 1 scores jumped significantly every year thereafter.

Also, so what I'm gathering is that it's pretty much wasted effort to try to assess rotation sites because it's based off other students first hand knowledge...

You're spending $200-250k on medical school, why pay so much to teach yourself? Sure you learn a lot during self study, but you can also self study after having lectures from professors who you're paying to teach you.

I'll never understand the appeal of CBL/PBL/whatever.

And what you hear from people about rotation sites is subjective. Community vs. research-oriented, preceptor vs. ward-based, it's all subjective and unique to the hospital in question. I tried to speak to 3rd/4th years at all the schools I interviewed at to get a feel for their experience with rotating. At KCUMB the students were overwhelmingly happy with their rotation system and options. If you look at their matchlist you'll see that they didn't have too much of a problem landing exceptional residencies with the system in place.

 

[Black Adder]

You're spending $200-250k on medical school, why pay so much to teach yourself? Sure you learn a lot during self study, but you can also self study after having lectures from professors who you're paying to teach you.

I'll never understand the appeal of CBL/PBL/whatever.

And what you hear from people about rotation sites is subjective. Community vs. research-oriented, preceptor vs. ward-based, it's all subjective and unique to the hospital in question. I tried to speak to 3rd/4th years at all the schools I interviewed at to get a feel for their experience with rotating. At KCUMB the students were overwhelmingly happy with their rotation system and options. If you look at their matchlist you'll see that they didn't have too much of a problem landing exceptional residencies with the system in place.

Exactly! The CBL curriculum isn't bad... I definitely learn a lot studying on my own (Also, as a side note..... I've never gone to ANY of the CBL sessions... along with probably half of my class and I think this holds true for the second years as well...), but paying 43k (soon to be 47k) a year to teach myself and receive less lecture time, is pretty frustrating. I tell myself I'm paying this much to enjoy the awesome socal weather....

 

[Hottpants89]

I've read several threads on the pros of these schools and feel that they are all excellent programs. However, I'm interested to hear if there are any red flags in these programs. What are important factors when considering schools that appear superficially equal? Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Have you applied yet? If you haven't been accepted to any of them it won't help that much to compare them to each other because you should apply to all of them if you are interested in them at all, and you may only get into one or two of them.

 

[moca83]

Have you applied yet? If you haven't been accepted to any of them it won't help that much to compare them to each other because you should apply to all of them if you are interested in them at all, and you may only get into one or two of them.

I see your point. I have not applied yet, but that is irrelevant to the question at hand. I could (hypothetically) have acceptances from all the schools on my list only to die before matriculating...this scenario is also irrelevant to my specific question. I'm just trying to think and plan ahead since I will most likely require the info in the above responses during the next four months.

 

[Iswhatis]

"And what you hear from people about rotation sites is subjective. Community vs. research-oriented, preceptor vs. ward-based, it's all subjective and unique to the hospital in question. I tried to speak to 3rd/4th years at all the schools I interviewed at to get a feel for their experience with rotating."

I'm going to have to agree with megathunder here. This is why it's extremely important to fully understand what you want to get out of medicine, rather than having someone tell you what you should get out of it. This goes back to the subconscious "feel" each school gives you. You can crunch match rates (which don't really tell you much) and evaluate clinical rotations sites all day until exhaustion, but none of it will make a difference until you really understand what you want. In the end, if you're happy where you're at, you will succeed because you will be engaged all day every day.

All I'm saying is don't base your application/interview/acceptance decisions on purely objective material, unless that's exactly what you want. Go there first, meet the students, faculty, and some of the profs if you can.

I'm sure the Phillies fan will disagree, but hey, that's what forums are for, right?

 

[Dr Yiot]

"And what you hear from people about rotation sites is subjective. Community vs. research-oriented, preceptor vs. ward-based, it's all subjective and unique to the hospital in question. I tried to speak to 3rd/4th years at all the schools I interviewed at to get a feel for their experience with rotating."

I'm going to have to agree with megathunder here. This is why it's extremely important to fully understand what you want to get out of medicine, rather than having someone tell you what you should get out of it. This goes back to the subconscious "feel" each school gives you. You can crunch match rates (which don't really tell you much) and evaluate clinical rotations sites all day until exhaustion, but none of it will make a difference until you really understand what you want. In the end, if you're happy where you're at, you will succeed because you will be engaged all day every day.

All I'm saying is don't base your application/interview/acceptance decisions on purely objective material, unless that's exactly what you want. Go there first, meet the students, faculty, and some of the profs if you can.

I'm sure the Phillies fan will disagree, but hey, that's what forums are for, right?

i dont disagree with what you said at all. the only time I disagreed with you was when you said to go with your gut when choosing a school. that can be very tricky.

however I still stand by my statement of importance. rotation sites and cost are most important.

when I meant rotations however, i didnt mean where you rotated as bieng the topic of importance but rather how they are set up, how much and when elective time is etc. how hard is it to get away rotations etc.

I say this because like has been stated, quality of rotations is difficult to distinguish as a pre med and even into your second year.