Large Animal Teaching Hospitals

[athane960]

I went to visit Fort Collins a couple of weeks ago to help me in my decision on which vet school to attend. I ended up speaking with one of the professors/veterinarians there and they made an interesting comment on how difficult it is to have a large animal teaching hospital especially in this economy because it doesn’t make much sense money wise for ranchers/livestock owners to spend that kind of money on their animals but to just cull them.

I guess this was a little bit of a concern to me because I am interested in public health especially when it comes to food safety/imports/exports I want to concentrate on large animal. I came away from the meeting with a little trepidation regarding getting enough hands on education with large animals while in school. I am sure they make sure that you are adequately prepared before you graduate, don’t get me wrong, but I wondered just how sparse the case load for the large animal hospital is among vet schools. This professor did admit however that she was not a clinician but more of a researcher but that was just her take on it.

Any thoughts, opinions or other views from experience?? This question might be better suited for the vet board but I feel more comfortable asking here.

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[TSUJC]

Although everyone is pushing the need for food animal vets, the amount of food animal exposure in vet school is minimal compared to small animal. I know two girls from here (A&M) that were large animal track and both said that they did not get the exposure they expected.

I think the same is probably true at any vet school. I don’t know many producers that are willing to spend thousands of dollars on an animal that may only be worth $300.

Most of the food animals that come into a teaching hospital are show animals or collection/flush animals that are worth a lot of money.

 

[ri23]

Ohio State has the largest LA caseload and that is due to the fact that we have maintained an ambulatory practice out in Marysville (more of a rural area). This used to be fairly common, but many veterinary schools discontinued it years ago. Apparently, Ohio has gotten calls from a number of schools that are interested in re-establishing such programs in order to build their LA caseload.

 

[david594]

Ohio State has the largest LA caseload and that is due to the fact that we have maintained an ambulatory practice out in Marysville (more of a rural area). This used to be fairly common, but many veterinary schools discontinued it years ago. Apparently, Ohio has gotten calls from a number of schools that are interested in re-establishing such programs in order to build their LA caseload.

A clear example why Ohio is the best school out there.

They cashed my check, I got my OSU email address, nothing left to do but get excited for the fall.

 

[Bill59]

This professor did admit however that she was not a clinician but more of a researcher but that was just her take on it.

My suggestion would be to talk to a clinician in the LA hospital.

 

[nhsvs]

The teaching hospital at K-State has a substantial large animal caseload and the facilities are great. A course in food animal medicine as well as a food animal medicine mentorship are also required as part of the professional curriculum. If I recall correctly, Missouri and Iowa also are strong in food animal medicine.

 

[aretoo]

OVC at University of Guelph has a food animal stream which includes doing a rotation with their Ruminant Field Service as well as a Food Animal Medicine rotation. The majority of OVC's LA hospital is certainly equine, but they do get enough food animals.

 

[tealamutt]

WSU has got a fairly decent caseload (though dropping lately with the economy. Equine is still as busy as ever). We have teaching herds of alpacas, goats, sheep, horses and a dairy so there is never a lack of something to learn about and work on. We also developed a new program this summer for first year students to get clinical experience with ag animals. You spend five weeks in the clinic doing physical exams, ordering tests, coming up with treatment protocols and performing treatments (all heavily supervised of course). The program is still evolving, but it is pretty exciting to get 5 focused weeks with four other students learning about LA clinics.

 

[Electrophile]

If I recall correctly, Missouri and Iowa also are strong in food animal medicine.

Yes, we've got a decent caseload and even when there are less cases being trailered in, we have an external ambulatory elective for food animal and therio that is very popular, so by the end, you're supposed to be able to at least 15 of the following:

V. Proficiencies, Skills, Tasks and Competencies List
A. Large Animal

1. Correctly place a halter on a bovine.
2. Restrain a bovine with a lariat.
3. Restrain a porcine with a snare
4. Demonstrate and discuss the proper the proper use of a bull lead.
5. Discuss and demonstrate the safe operation of a head catch or squeeze chute.
6. Perform a rectal examination in the bovine.
7. Palpate a cow's reproductive tract for pregnancy.
8. Palpate a mare's reproductive tract for pregnancy.
9. Perform regional blocks for abdominal surgery in the bovine.
10. Castrate a calf.
11. Castrate a horse.
12. Castrate a piglet.
13. Castrate a small ruminant.
14. Assist with a ruminant caesarian section.
15. Assist with a porcine caesarian section.
16. Assist with a mare caesarian section
17. Perform a breeding soundness examination on a bull.
18. Perform a breeding soundness examination on a stallion.
19. Perform a breeding soundness examination on a ram or buck.
20. Use ultrasound to diagnose pregnancy in a cow/heifer.
21. Use ultrasound to diagnose pregnancy in a mare.
22. Use ultrasound to diagnose pregnancy in a small ruminant.
23. Use ultrasound to diagnose pregnancy in a sow/gilt.
24. Exam an equine's foot.
25. Properly administer a subcutaneous injection in various species.
26. Properly administer an intramuscular injection in various species.
27. Demonstrate an intravenous injection in various species.
28. Pass a stomach tube on a bovine.
29. Pass a stomach tube on an equine.
30. Administer fluids to a calf via an esophageal feeder.
31. Administer a bolus to a baby calf.
32. Administer a bolus to an adult bovine via a balling gun.
33. Determine the age of cattle by their dentition.
34. Discuss the proper storage and handling of drugs and vaccines.
35. Auscultate normal and abnormal lungs.
36. Examine and auscultate cattle with abdominal disorders, i.e., displaced abomasums, bloat, grain overload, etc.
37. Perform a rumenotomy.
38. Discuss Beef and Dairy quality assurance.
39. Discuss biosecurity and biocontainment.
40. Dehorn a baby ruminant by electro-cautery
41. Dehorn older cattle with Barnes or Keystone dehorners with hemostasis.
42. Demonstrate local anesthesia for the cornual nerve.
43. Demonstrate proper tattooing of cattle.
44. Properly apply a third eyelid flap.
45. Assist in obstetrical procedures any species.
46. Demonstrate the correct procedures for collecting sterile quarter milk samples.
47. Properly place implants in cattle ears.
48. Discuss and demonstrate the proper use and care of reusable syringes.
49. Perform an epidural block in a bovine/small ruminant.
50. Assist with the replacement of a prolapsed vagina, uterus, or rectum.
51. Perform and interpret the California Mastitis Test.
52. Conduct a physical examination on a bovine and/or small ruminant.
53. Conduct a physical examination on an equine.
54. Conduct a physical examination on a porcine
55. Demonstrate and discuss body condition scoring of beef animals.
56. Demonstrate and discuss body condition scoring of dairy breeding females.
57. Demonstrate and discuss body condition scoring of small ruminants.
58. Repair a cut or laceration.
59. Treat and discuss causes of neonatal pig diarrhea.
60. Use and discuss synchronization programs in bovine or porcine.
61. Demonstrate knowledge of proper nutrition for beef/dairy/small ruminant or porcine production.
62. Be exposed to production records (i.e. DHIA, CowSense, Pig Champ, etc.)
63. Analyze ventilation systems in a commercial swine operation.
64. Be exposed to regulatory veterinary medicine

B. Small Animal
46. Perform a breeding soundness examination on a dog.
47. Assist with a cat or dog caesarian section.
48. Castrate a dog.
49. Castrate a cat.
50. Spay a cat.
51. Spay a dog.
52. Perform and explain vaginal cytology in the bitch.

 

[pressmom]

I just spent a week in Farm Animal as part of our Clinical Exposure. We were SUPER busy. I was surprised. It was also great to see the quality of medicine being practiced. What I saw Tuesday afternoon to Friday (in sort of chronological order)

1. Foot surgery on a bull
2. Downer cow
3. ADR heifer
4. Alpaca post surgery (assisted in PT)
5. Goat post surgery
6. 12 dehorns
7. Assisted in two calf pulls
8. Camel (!)
9. 2 more downer cows
7. calf with diarrhea
8. 6 heifers about to give birth (two did while I was there, so I got to work with those calves)

I'm sure there are some I am forgetting. But we were busy the entire time. One day we didn't even break for lunch until 3 PM!

I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would.

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[bmichs75DVM]

Yes, we've got a decent caseload and even when there are less cases being trailered in, we have an external ambulatory elective for food animal and therio that is very popular, so by the end, you're supposed to be able to at least 15 of the following:

Thats interesting. I would say I could correctly complete maybe 90% or better of those large animal requirements right now and I have not even gotten to vet school yet. This is my area of interest and I volunteer with a LA clinic and they let me do practically all of the work; from diagnoses to treatment.

I have to agree with David saying that OSU is pretty sweet!

 

[Diabloo]

Thats interesting. I would say I could correctly complete maybe 90% or better of those large animal requirements right now and I have not even gotten to vet school yet. This is my area of interest and I volunteer with a LA clinic and they let me do practically all of the work; from diagnoses to treatment.

That's interesting...diagnosing patients is illegal.

Maybe you should get your ego checked.

 

[pressmom]

We also have an ambulatory service at UT.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's not egotistical, bmichs75DVM is stating the fact that he knows how to do the vast majority of these things and he is greatly trusted at the clinic. There is nothing illegal about an assistant or student diagnosing and giving treatment (as long as it is not unassisted surgical work) providing the vet checks and signs off on it, which I am assuming happens here since the word "practically" was used. A large number of those tasks are things that every large animal veterinary assistant should be able to do anyway.

Snarky remarks aren't a good foundation for professional networking...I hope you don't accuse every accomplished applicant of being egotistical. Personally, I think it's great that we have another knowledgeable LA pre-vet here. Lord knows the industry needs them.

 

[rugbychick16]

That's interesting...diagnosing patients is illegal.

Maybe you should get your ego checked.

I'm sure a vet is right there as backup for every step of the diagnosing/treatment, thats the best way to learn. Large animal vets tend to be alot more relaxed about that kind of stuff too.
I can do at least half of those things from growing up on a ranch/animal science undergrad major, so its not that uncommon.

 

[laurafinn]

how difficult it is to have a large animal teaching hospital especially in this economy because it doesn’t make much sense money wise for ranchers/livestock owners to spend that kind of money on their animals but to just cull them.... I came away from the meeting with a little trepidation regarding getting enough hands on education with large animals while in school.

In many cases it doesn't make economic sense to spend more money on a production animal than the animal is worth. I don't think that fact is dependent on whether the national economy is up or down.

There are cases where it may make economic sense: if the animal has an infectious disease that may spread to or be present in the rest of the herd; the animal is pregnant with potentially valuable offspring; if the animal has a clinical manifestation of a subclinical syndrome that may be affecting the rest of the herd. Also, a cow with a known level of milk production might be worth saving when the alternative is to buy in a cow that may or may not be a good producer. I'm sure there are more situations, but you get the idea.

Other posters have already described how schools bolster their large animal caseloads: ambulatory services, research herds, etc. From my ginormous p) one week of practical work with our school's ambulatory farm service, I would add that the school can offer to trailer in interesting cases from the local farms they have a good relationship with. I think we had what was considered a slow week, but students on the quasi-rotation still saw or participated in hundreds of cow pregnancy diagnoses, lots of cow lameness exams, several cow and sheep necropsies, and some individual animal IM/surgical cases.

Massey is a good school if you are interested in grass-fed production animals. We have more large animal courses than small and there is heavy emphasis on gaining practical, real world experience. Small animal people will, however, learn more about how and when grass grows than you ever, ever wanted to know.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

In many cases it doesn't make economic sense to spend more money on a production animal than the animal is worth. I don't think that fact is dependent on whether the national economy is up or down


That's an excellent point and quite true in many cases, unless the national economy starts really affecting beef/dairy/pork prices. If you're losing money from poor weight gains, it makes financial sense to have a vet come a do a consult because no matter how expensive the vet is, you're going to be saving money in the long run. This isn't as true for small animals because they don't produce. The fact that your cat is limping doesn't make you lose money, therefore there isn't as much of an impetus to treat. You ARE going to lose money if you don't treat a cow for a limp, because they are likely ill/in pain and you'll have chronic production drops and heat detection issues (lots of lost $!) until you treat it.

 

[twelvetigers]

Pressmom - slightly OT, but... camels are kinda scary. Lol. There was one in the clinic when I hunted someone down about bloodwork (crazy Antech girl!) and I asked if they had teeth on top or a dental pad like sheep... so the student tried to look, and the camel started swaying his head around and going, "Woop, woop!"

Err... at least that's what it sounded like. Ever hear a camel sound p/oed? Weird.

That's all.

 

[david594]

That's interesting...diagnosing patients is illegal.

Maybe you should get your ego checked.

Haha, this is really too funny. I guess I am guilty too, I "diagnose" things all the time at work. The vets know I want to go to vet school, so they will drill me on stuff.

Vet: "What do you think is wrong"

Me: "I think it could be X"

Vet: "Why do you think that?"

Me: (explain rationale)

Vet: "How would you treat it?"

Somewhere in there they usually go over other things in the differential, and the doctor would explain how my thinking was correct or incorrect.

 

[bmichs75DVM]

That's interesting...diagnosing patients is illegal.

Maybe you should get your ego checked.

technically it is not. if you are under the supervision of a licensed practicing vet and he does a full physical and diagnoses the animal as well him self, it is totally legal.

It sounds to me like everyone else understood clearly what I was saying.

 

[jglovicz]

technically it is not. if you are under the supervision of a licensed practicing vet and he does a full physical and diagnoses the animal as well him self, it is totally legal.

It sounds to me like everyone else understood clearly what I was saying.

I agree. I think that the best way to learn is to "diagnose" and to explain your reasoning to the practicing vet. There isn't anything egotistical about that. That's how we learn!

 

[Mr Vega]

That's interesting...diagnosing patients is illegal.

Maybe you should get your ego checked.

Diabloo, don't be so quick to judge. If indeed this person was trying to show off, then, yes they need to take a step back. But, there's nothing wrong with a little confidence. And there's certainly nothing wrong with some good experience. However, knowing how to do a few procedures doesn't really mean all that much.

In vet school, you're going to find that most of the techs at your small/large animal hospitals will be able to perform those procedures better than the students and even some of the vets. The reason we go to vet school isn't to know step by step procedures - that's what vet tech school is for. Don't get me wrong, it is VERY important that you can do it, but that's not what separates the doctor from the tech. You go to vet school to learn WHY you do these procedures and even more importantly, HOW to alter your game plan when the presenting problem isn't the textbook case you wish it were.

You'll see this once you get into school. There's always some new students thumping their experienced chests. But when presented with very difficult cases that they have to diagnose that oversized head of theirs doesn't help them one bit.

 

[Electrophile]

technically it is not. if you are under the supervision of a licensed practicing vet and he does a full physical and diagnoses the animal as well him self, it is totally legal.

It sounds to me like everyone else understood clearly what I was saying.

I dunno, I took it the other way too, like "oh man, look how freaking awesome I am and I'm not even in vet school!" Vet school can be very humbling...just saying...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Sorry, I had to...heehee...sorry bmichs75DVM

 

[bmichs75DVM]

I guess I should be a little more humbling with my words, but this is my area of interest. Now I can't say much about SA, I am lacking there.

 

[athane960]

Thanks for the information about case loads in the LA teaching hospitals! I really appreciate it!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Seems like there's always alpacas back in the hospital...

Jamie luuuuuvs his alpacas No, he does.

On the whiteboard last rounds I went to, there was briefly written for a patient:

Problem List:
Anorexia
Lethargy
Weight loss
Alpaca

Differential Diagnoses:
Dental problems/mastication issues
Neoplasia
Chronic inflammation
Malabsorption/GI
Alpaca

Gotta love em! There do seem to be a lot of alpacas here in southwestern VA... I got so tired of football shaped red cells, I'm sure you did too.

 

[starlene45]

Frequency-- that alpaca hilarity reminds me of a quote from my hospital's current intern (comment made in tx room regarding a DOA rabbit):

"Rabbits and horses are just giant cecums with no will to live!"

In many instances I have to agree!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And here, look, how many people here never though they would see "rabbits" "horses" and "giant cecums" in one sentence??

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[CatVet2Be]

I agree. I think that the best way to learn is to "diagnose" and to explain your reasoning to the practicing vet. There isn't anything egotistical about that. That's how we learn!

I have to agree with this too, this is how PBL formats work, you get a case, research the components and try to figure out what's going on. We do this when we work with animals whether we say it out loud or not. I'm sure everyone here has seen a case and tried to figure out what was going on and what to do about it. I don't find anything egotistical about taking your previous experience and applying that knowledge to a current situation. As we learn more we'll get better at it but in the meantime it's a good tool to test yourself to find out if your thinking is on the right track and if it's not you learn something new.


bmichs75DVM can I claim you as my study buddy for LA stuff? I'm severely lacking in knowledge in that department but I can make up for it in SA.

 

[twelvetigers]

For all the complaining...I do think alpaca's are pretty though, they make cute noises too.

The cute noises are negated completely by the fact that they are capable of SPITTING IN YOUR EYE.

Not that I would know anything about that. *ahem*

No, the saving grace for alpacas has to be crias. Talk about adorable...

 

[david594]

bmichs75DVM can I claim you as my study buddy for LA stuff? I'm severely lacking in knowledge in that department but I can make up for it in SA.

You could be our third roommate?

 

[sumstorm]

The cute noises are negated completely by the fact that they are capable of SPITTING IN YOUR EYE.

Not that I would know anything about that. *ahem*

No, the saving grace for alpacas has to be crias. Talk about adorable...

I use to love watching the zoo visitors that tried to reach over the fence to pet the guanacos. We use to make bets on how long before the infamous 'rejection of affection' occured.

 

[bmichs75DVM]

bmichs75DVM can I claim you as my study buddy for LA stuff? I'm severely lacking in knowledge in that department but I can make up for it in SA.

sure. And maybe u could help me with SA stuf if I need it.

I like the way David thinks. Roomates still needed if anyone is interested.

 

[rachroo]

At this point, I don't think I'll be needing another roommate...but I wouldn't mind having a good study group!

EDIT: I can make/bring good food!

 

[CatVet2Be]

I'm all for setting up a good study group! And maybe we can meet up before the orientation once we're all in Ohio. I'd love to know a few people before the first day, my hubby and I don't know anyone in Ohio, so maybe a lunch meet-up for SDNers? As far as roomies, we're looking to possibly rent a house and I'm hoping to get 1-2 roommates but we haven't looked into a place yet.

Ok, done derailing the thread...

 

[Beanjamime]

Sorry, I had to...heehee...sorry bmichs75DVM

 

[twelvetigers]

At this point, I don't think I'll be needing another roommate...but I wouldn't mind having a good study group!

EDIT: I can make/bring good food!

Haha. That's what I'll be like. Do I have extensive LA/SA knowledge to offer? Probably not... but I can make dessert.

 

[eventualeventer]

I'm the opposite, sort of. I know LA (well, equine, not so much ruminant) stuff and I love to eat!

 

[twelvetigers]

Just a bit of news for anyone interested...

The O[k]SU Center for Veterinary Health Sciences received $1 million from the Gaylord Foundation to launch its Equine Critical Care Unit at the center's Boren Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital.

Link!