PhD/PsyD Looking for Info on These Psy.D. Programs

[DoctorofSun]

Hi all,
I'm looking for some additional information on the following Psy.D. programs. I have a lot of the basic information on these schools like APA internship placement rate, licensure rate, tuition, etc. but I'm looking for more personal experience input. How did you or someone you know like the program? How was the training provided? How was your experience with faculty? Any surprises, good or bad?

Indiana State University
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Pepperdine
Roosevelt
Rutgers
Spalding
University of Denver
University of Hartford
University of Indianapolis
Wright State
Xavier

Any info you could provide on potential funding opportunities would also be greatly appreciated, as this information has been difficult to come by at times.

Thank you all in advance.

Univ of Denver is accelerated, 3+1. More appropriate for someone with some clinical experience background.

I've heard good things about Wright State but that it's gone down hill lately. Pretty affordable though as cost of living is low there and the it's a state school, which keeps tuition down. They have paid practicums (used to anyways). Heavy emphasis on diversity training, which you won't get everywhere.

I've been very impressed by the students I've met from Rutger's.

Pepperdine is going to by very expensive. Private school tuition plus cost of living in Malibu.

Don't forget to look at financials. Tuition and cost of living. PsyD.s usually come with very little funding. Most don't have paid practicums. Expect to be funded through loans. A lot of folks start doing assessment work on the side to make some extra money or teaching.

Ask about how they do practicum. Some programs place you and others expect you to find your own. Types of practicums they offer is important too if you have an area you want to focus more. Also ask about class size. Some programs admit very large classes, which is bad for the field.

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[Therapist4Chnge]

3+1…that blows my mind. I have significant doubts that it is doable.

*edit*

Their current years to completion average is 5yr.

Their APA-acred. match rate is high, though they also offer a captive APA-acred. internship site, which skews their numbers. I don't have anything against a captive site, it just makes it harder to judge how competitive their students are when they have that option.

ps. They also did at least 4+1, not 3+1.

 

[Phanicus]

Thanks for all of the info. The financial aspect is definitely a huge concern for me.

I'm on the fence about Wright state for this very reason. My research has told me that funding is very limited and that worries me a lot. Several of these other programs have at least partial funding so those will be in my top picks.

I love Denver and have heard great things about that school but the lack of funding is worrisome, especially considering that is by far the most expensive school I'm considering.

I've started looking into PhD programs as well and it's surprising at how much better their numbers typically are and how much more funding is available. This is relieving to a point but I also understand how crazy competitive they are. I'm hoping to find one that holds my years of clinical experience is high regards. I do have a few years of research experience but I feel like I see people fail to get accepted with better qualifications that me all the time.

 

[cara susanna]

3+1…that blows my mind. I have significant doubts that it is doable.

*edit*

Their current years to completion average is 5yr.

Their APA-acred. match rate is high, though they also offer a captive APA-acred. internship site, which skews their numbers. I don't have anything against a captive site, it just makes it harder to judge how competitive their students are when they have that option.

I know a few people from that program and I've been pretty impressed by them. Granted, it's not a large sample size.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I only know a couple of people who went there and they were decent to pretty good clinicians. My biggest issue with them is the cost. I *love* Colorado (as a state), but between the cost and the saturated markets…it wasn't a good fit.

 

[DoctorofSun]

Thanks for all of the info. The financial aspect is definitely a huge concern for me.

I'm on the fence about Wright state for this very reason. My research has told me that funding is very limited and that worries me a lot. Several of these other programs have at least partial funding so those will be in my top picks.

I love Denver and have heard great things about that school but the lack of funding is worrisome, especially considering that is by far the most expensive school I'm considering.

I've started looking into PhD programs as well and it's surprising at how much better their numbers typically are and how much more funding is available. This is relieving to a point but I also understand how crazy competitive they are. I'm hoping to find one that holds my years of clinical experience is high regards. I do have a few years of research experience but I feel like I see people fail to get accepted with better qualifications that me all the time.

I knew I wanted to be a clinician, which is why I went with the Psy.D. My experience during predoc, it was pretty clear I was a much more confident and advanced clinician than my PhD counterpart. She was wonderful and had many, many impressive publications to her name. But she had major holes in her course and field work. Ultimately it depends on the program. I don't see a whole lot of difference at this point other than being slightly more research or slightly more clinically focused. I wasn't interested in research at all so I made my decision based on that. I matched internship, passed EPPP, got a post doc. All the ducks fell in a row. Apply to the right programs for you, interview, and trust your gut in making the final decision.

 

[shrink4hire4u]

I was a much more confident and advanced clinician than my PhD counterpart. She was wonderful and had many, many impressive publications to her name. But she had major holes in her course and field work

This is very common. It makes complete sense given the training model. I heard it all the time and I finally convinced our director that I wasn't an outlier. We have two advanced practicum students, two interns, and two post-docs where I work (out pt. program at a large county hospital). Last year, both prac students were PsyDs, the other 4 were PhDs from research focused schools. It became obvious about a quarter of the year that the PsyDs were much more advanced than the other 4 and the training director and director of the site wound up having the prac students peer supervise the interns! They also led seminars and our post-docs were very open about how much they learned from them and how their programs fell short. I was very proud because I'm also a PsyD. This year, we have 4 PsyDs and 2 PhDs and the supervision structure is much more traditional.

 

[Pragma]

This is very common. It makes complete sense given the training model. I heard it all the time and I finally convinced our director that I wasn't an outlier. We have two advanced practicum students, two interns, and two post-docs where I work (out pt. program at a large county hospital). Last year, both prac students were PsyDs, the other 4 were PhDs from research focused schools. It became obvious about a quarter of the year that the PsyDs were much more advanced than the other 4 and the training director and director of the site wound up having the prac students peer supervise the interns! They also led seminars and our post-docs were very open about how much they learned from them and how their programs fell short. I was very proud because I'm also a PsyD. This year, we have 4 PsyDs and 2 PhDs and the supervision structure is much more traditional.

We generally see the opposite pattern at my clinical site. Most of the time, the PhD students have a much better clinical foundation as well as understanding of EBTs. There are exceptions, but 9/10 times that is the case. But, it is worth noting that most of the PsyD students come from large cohort FSPS institutions. The exceptions seem to be the ones from university based programs.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This is very common. It makes complete sense given the training model. I heard it all the time and I finally convinced our director that I wasn't an outlier. We have two advanced practicum students, two interns, and two post-docs where I work (out pt. program at a large county hospital). Last year, both prac students were PsyDs, the other 4 were PhDs from research focused schools. It became obvious about a quarter of the year that the PsyDs were much more advanced than the other 4 and the training director and director of the site wound up having the prac students peer supervise the interns! They also led seminars and our post-docs were very open about how much they learned from them and how their programs fell short. I was very proud because I'm also a PsyD. This year, we have 4 PsyDs and 2 PhDs and the supervision structure is much more traditional.

It is not a surprise that someone from a research-focused school would have less clinical expertise. What most people are saying, and what I have seen, is that most clinical Phd programs are more balanced and the better PsyD programs are also more balanced. My experience has also been that by the time students get to internship and beyond, the students from the FSPSs have some of the weakest skill sets. I have a pretty small N on this, obviously, but the overall stats tend to back it up.

 

[mmivshek]

Hi all,
I'm looking for some additional information on the following Psy.D. programs. I have a lot of the basic information on these schools like APA internship placement rate, licensure rate, tuition, etc. but I'm looking for more personal experience input. How did you or someone you know like the program? How was the training provided? How was your experience with faculty? Any surprises, good or bad?

Indiana State University
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Pepperdine
Roosevelt
Rutgers
Spalding
University of Denver
University of Hartford
University of Indianapolis
Wright State
Xavier

Any info you could provide on potential funding opportunities would also be greatly appreciated, as this information has been difficult to come by at times.

Thank you all in advance.

I currently attend Indiana State University and am very happy with my experience thus far. We are pretty balanced with research and clinical work for a PsyD. You are not required to do research (apart from some class work and your dissertation), but if you would like to seek out opportunities for publication there are a number of opportunities. Some faculty run more formal labs, whereas others you just talk to about research interests you have that are similar to there own to come up with projects.

The training is awesome, we have smaller cohorts (6-8), which I think provides us a more personalized experience because the faculty have more time to spend with us. We have a lot of great practicum opportunities, and you are able to create your own sites (granted there is adequate supervision and experiences) if what is available is not exactly what you are looking for. I tone of the big things for me deciding between this program and others I got into when I was going through the application process is the funding. We receive tuition remission as well as stipends for TA/RA.ing. I have made it without taking student loans out thus far. I know some people have taken out some if they have an unpaid practicum or prefer to have more expendable income, but then you just need to take out loans for cost of living.

Overall, great program, I like our faculty and we are in the process of hiring a couple more clinical and one experimental in the near future, which will be helpful. Hope it helps!

 

[Phanicus]

I currently attend Indiana State University and am very happy with my experience thus far. We are pretty balanced with research and clinical work for a PsyD. You are not required to do research (apart from some class work and your dissertation), but if you would like to seek out opportunities for publication there are a number of opportunities. Some faculty run more formal labs, whereas others you just talk to about research interests you have that are similar to there own to come up with projects.

The training is awesome, we have smaller cohorts (6-8), which I think provides us a more personalized experience because the faculty have more time to spend with us. We have a lot of great practicum opportunities, and you are able to create your own sites (granted there is adequate supervision and experiences) if what is available is not exactly what you are looking for. I tone of the big things for me deciding between this program and others I got into when I was going through the application process is the funding. We receive tuition remission as well as stipends for TA/RA.ing. I have made it without taking student loans out thus far. I know some people have taken out some if they have an unpaid practicum or prefer to have more expendable income, but then you just need to take out loans for cost of living.

Overall, great program, I like our faculty and we are in the process of hiring a couple more clinical and one experimental in the near future, which will be helpful. Hope it helps!

Thanks for your input! I'm really excited about the prospect of going to Indiana State. Seems like a great school.

The only aspect that is concerning is that it's in such a small town and it would be tough for my gf to get a job in her field. She is has a women and gender studies MA and we haven't seen anything too promising in the area. I still love that school, though!

 

[chelly78]

Thanks for your input! I'm really excited about the prospect of going to Indiana State. Seems like a great school.

The only aspect that is concerning is that it's in such a small town and it would be tough for my gf to get a job in her field. She is has a women and gender studies MA and we haven't seen anything too promising in the area. I still love that school, though!

I also currently attend Indiana State University and can speak a bit to what others in your situation have done. You are correct that it can be much more difficult finding relevant work for significant others in town since it is smaller. I will say that in the past there have been students who had significant others find work in either Indianapolis or Bloomington, which are both about an hour away and have some increased opportunity. Some students have lived with their spouse and commuted to campus or just spent the weekends with them (not ideal, but it can work). Also, a large proportion of our students successfully maintain long-distance relationships. Obviously, none of these situations are optimal, but the students provide a very strong support network for these non-traditional situations.

Also, I would recommend possibly looking for work opportunities through Saint Mary of the Woods. It is a private, Catholic women's university in town and might have some additional options for your girlfriend. Let me know if you have any other questions about ISU that I might be able to help answer.

 

[Phanicus]

I also currently attend Indiana State University and can speak a bit to what others in your situation have done. You are correct that it can be much more difficult finding relevant work for significant others in town since it is smaller. I will say that in the past there have been students who had significant others find work in either Indianapolis or Bloomington, which are both about an hour away and have some increased opportunity. Some students have lived with their spouse and commuted to campus or just spent the weekends with them (not ideal, but it can work). Also, a large proportion of our students successfully maintain long-distance relationships. Obviously, none of these situations are optimal, but the students provide a very strong support network for these non-traditional situations.

Also, I would recommend possibly looking for work opportunities through Saint Mary of the Woods. It is a private, Catholic women's university in town and might have some additional options for your girlfriend. Let me know if you have any other questions about ISU that I might be able to help answer.

Thanks for the info. It's exciting to see people from that school being so happy with it. I will definitely look into St Mary's. I'll have to talk to her about commuting if nothing pans out in the area and I get accepted.

 

[abiturient]

Hi all,
I'm looking for some additional information on the following Psy.D. programs. I have a lot of the basic information on these schools like APA internship placement rate, licensure rate, tuition, etc. but I'm looking for more personal experience input. How did you or someone you know like the program? How was the training provided? How was your experience with faculty? Any surprises, good or bad?

Indiana State University
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Pepperdine
Roosevelt
Rutgers
Spalding
University of Denver
University of Hartford
University of Indianapolis
Wright State
Xavier

Any info you could provide on potential funding opportunities would also be greatly appreciated, as this information has been difficult to come by at times.

Thank you all in advance.

When I first thought of applying to graduate school, I planned on applying to PsyD programs because I was intimidated by research and thought I had no chance of getting into a PhD program. (I ended up being accepted to a fully-funded PhD) Then I got involved into research at my undergrad institution and actually loved it! I was a research assistant for 6 months and did a senior thesis, (a total 1 y experience at the time of application which is not much) but I was a lot more confident now and wanted to try for a PhD. I ended up applying to 14 PhD and not a single PsyD. When I went to interviews, I was shocked by how many students actually wanted to be practitioners and not researchers and were open about it. Granted, I applied to equal focus scientist-practitioner programs. Research is still a big part of training, but the majority of PhD graduates end up doing clinical work because there is not enough jobs for everyone in academia. One program I visited was a funded PhD but had a more clinical focus. So unless you absolutely hate research, don't exclude PhDs even if you want to be a practitioner.

**to add: I chose not to apply to PsyD mainly because of the funding issue. but I considered Indiana State and Indiana University of Pennsylvania (they have some funding) but none of the faculty matched my research interests even closely.

 

[Phanicus]

When I first thought of applying to graduate school, I planned on applying to PsyD programs because I was intimidated by research and thought I had no chance of getting into a PhD program. (I ended up being accepted to a fully-funded PhD) Then I got involved into research at my undergrad institution and actually loved it! I was a research assistant for 6 months and did a senior thesis, (a total 1 y experience at the time of application which is not much) but I was a lot more confident now and wanted to try for a PhD. I ended up applying to 14 PhD and not a single PsyD. When I went to interviews, I was shocked by how many students actually wanted to be practitioners and not researchers and were open about it. Granted, I applied to equal focus scientist-practitioner programs. Research is still a big part of training, but the majority of PhD graduates end up doing clinical work because there is not enough jobs for everyone in academia. One program I visited was a funded PhD but had a more clinical focus. So unless you absolutely hate research, don't exclude PhDs even if you want to be a practitioner.

**to add: I chose not to apply to PsyD mainly because of the funding issue. but I considered Indiana State and Indiana University of Pennsylvania (they have some funding) but none of the faculty matched my research interests even closely.

Thanks so much for your input. I am leaning more toward PhD programs now as I look further into them. I'm beginning to see that PhDs could be more clinically focused and the funding makes a huge difference. I'm going to continue searching for fitting programs, PhDs and PsyDs alike, and see what I can come up with. Thanks again!

 

[Hope4Grad]

To add a new spin to the PhD vs PsyD debate...I am in a PsyD program and while I think there are many, many paths for which PhD or PsyD are equal, come Internship application time (now) I am missing sorely the guidance I imagine I would have had if in a PhD program. I am in a top PsyD program, and even so, the Internship site selection process is cocked up because of not having a mentor. The difference is having a mentor who can steer you in the right direction (PhD program) and help you make excellent match choices and absolutely zero guidance (PsyD program). I am pissed about this part of my education, or lack thereof. It could mean an extra year, more debt, heartache, confusion, and wasted time if I don't match.

 

[erg923]

To add a new spin to the PhD vs PsyD debate...I am in a PsyD program and while I think there are many, many paths for which PhD or PsyD are equal, come Internship application time (now) I am missing sorely the guidance I imagine I would have had if in a PhD program. I am in a top PsyD program, and even so, the Internship site selection process is cocked up because of not having a mentor. The difference is having a mentor who can steer you in the right direction (PhD program) and help you make excellent match choices and absolutely zero guidance (PsyD program). I am pissed about this part of my education, or lack thereof. It could mean an extra year, more debt, heartache, confusion, and wasted time if I don't match.

Is this not part of of a DCTs job description? I can't really say my mentor was all that effective (as it were) for guiding within the internship process, Although my program faculty as a whole was. Or at least mildly advising and supportive.

What are you looking for that you're missing at this time? This is largely on you, as it should be, but certainly there should be someone familiar enough with you (professionally and personally) for advising and general Q and A.

 

[Hope4Grad]

Is this not part of of a DCTs job description? I can't really say my mentor was all that effective (as it were) for guiding within the internship process, Although my program faculty as a whole was. Or at least mildly advising and supportive.

What are you looking for that you're missing at this time? This is largely on you, as it should be, but certainly there should be someone familiar enough with you (professionally and personally) for advising and general Q and A.

Yeah, there isn't really much of that to speak of in my program. "It's in your/their job description" is not something that people respond well to. Most people do what they FEEL is in their job description that day/moment, which is different. To be fair, in a PsyD program a DCT generally has a LOT more students to keep track of than a typical PhD program DCT. Which further elucidates the main point I was trying to make: that this is a disadvantage on the PsyD side of the whole PsyD versus PhD point of this thread.

I also might add that if you can (this is again, directed to the OP and others checking out/interviewing at grad programs), it would be useful to meet or talk with/email that program's DCT and get a sense of them. DCT's seem to often be pulled in various political directions: they answer to APPIC, APA, the department, and the students. Ideally, you want a DCT who puts students first in that list of allegiances.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah, there isn't really much of that to speak of in my program. "It's in your/their job description" is not something that people respond well to. Most people do what they FEEL is in their job description that day/moment, which is different. To be fair, in a PsyD program a DCT generally has a LOT more students to keep track of than a typical PhD program DCT. Which further elucidates the main point I was trying to make: that this is a disadvantage on the PsyD side of the whole PsyD versus PhD point of this thread.

I also might add that if you can (this is again, directed to the OP and others checking out/interviewing at grad programs), it would be useful to meet or talk with/email that program's DCT and get a sense of them. DCT's seem to often be pulled in various political directions: they answer to APPIC, APA, the department, and the students. Ideally, you want a DCT who puts students first in that list of allegiances.

Good post although I am sure how helpful a DCT is might also be a function of personality. What troubles me about some PsyD programs I have heard of is that they will not allow their students to apply to some sites. I believe the idea is that they want to keep their match stats under control as best they are able. If I were a student this would really make me mad - I spoke with a couple that had DCT's that prevented them from applying to dream sites where they even had made networking strides on their own. It's your career so you should have some autonomy as long as the site meets program requirements.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Good post although I am sure how helpful a DCT is might also be a function of personality. What troubles me about some PsyD programs I have heard of is that they will not allow their students to apply to some sites. I believe the idea is that they want to keep their match stats under control as best they are able. If I were a student this would really make me mad - I spoke with a couple that had DCT's that prevented them from applying to dream sites where they even had made networking strides on their own. It's your career so you should have some autonomy as long as the site meets program requirements.

Agreed. If a DCT won't sign off on your application hours for something that's within their purview (e.g., they have concerns about the way you've tallied your face-to-face patient contact hours or integrated reports), that's one thing. No problem. But if they're dictating to which sites students can and can't apply, particularly if it's a way of essentially padding the program's match rates, that in my mind should be grounds for their dismissal (or at the very least a stringent review by APA).

 

[R. Matey]

I, for one, am glad to hear that the OP is considering Ph.D. programs. I wanted to say that I was in same boat as the OP when I first found SDN. I was a little older with an M.A. and a few years of research experience, but not very many pubs. I was also somewhat geographically restricted and thought a Psy.D. was my only option because of fears related to competitiveness. I accepted an offer from an unfunded Psy.D. program at the same time I had found SDN and read similar arguments to the ones being posted on this thread. Ultimately, I became convinced that a Psy.D. wasn't worth the debt and went through the application process again. I'm now in a full funded university based Ph.D. program working with a great advisor. So, thanks SDN.

How did I do it? One thing I don't see on these forums a lot which is true in applying to Ph.D. programs is finding a program that reflects your interests as a professional. Have that lens in mind when you are choosing programs. I also volunteered on a research team between years to gain more research experience and read Insider's Guide religiously.

The key message I see on these forums again and again is the question of debt to income ratio. I'm of the opinion that you should choose a career that is a good return on your investment. Professional psychology is a great career, no question. But it's not worth selling one of your kidneys for. There are many other careers that help people than aren't as research focused as professional psychology which don't require the initial time and money investment to enter the profession. As far as the research component is concerned, I enjoy it and am convinced that it's a necessary part of the job.

I also wonder how much people underestimate their interests in research due to a fear of dealing in stats...just a thought.

 

[Pragma]

Agreed. If a DCT won't sign off on your application hours for something that's within their purview (e.g., they have concerns about the way you've tallied your face-to-face patient contact hours or integrated reports), that's one thing. No problem. But if they're dictating to which sites students can and can't apply, particularly if it's a way of essentially padding the program's match rates, that in my mind should be grounds for their dismissal (or at the very least a stringent review by APA).

My understanding here is that some Psy.D. programs that have large cohorts will sometimes:
1) limit the number of their students that can apply to certain sites, sometimes because of a cap on the number of applicants per school
2) Use internal data to determine who is more or less likely to match, and then make decisions about where people can apply to
3) Absolutely will decide whether or not someone is allowed to apply for a particular internship.

It sounds awful to me but these programs are accredited. There must be some loophole.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My understanding here is that some Psy.D. programs that have large cohorts will sometimes:
1) limit the number of their students that can apply to certain sites, sometimes because of a cap on the number of applicants per school
2) Use internal data to determine who is more or less likely to match, and then make decisions about where people can apply to
3) Absolutely will decide whether or not someone is allowed to apply for a particular internship.

It sounds awful to me but these programs are accredited. There must be some loophole.

I can potentially understand trying to limit the number of students all applying to the same site. That at least makes some sense. But the rest, that's pretty bad.

 

[Hope4Grad]

My understanding here is that some Psy.D. programs that have large cohorts will sometimes:
1) limit the number of their students that can apply to certain sites, sometimes because of a cap on the number of applicants per school
2) Use internal data to determine who is more or less likely to match, and then make decisions about where people can apply to
3) Absolutely will decide whether or not someone is allowed to apply for a particular internship.

It sounds awful to me but these programs are accredited. There must be some loophole.

I think it's important to stop this rumor in it's tracks, which was posted by a person who is not in a PsyD program but apparently has a deep "understanding." This is like some weird Donald Trump level of BS claim. I hate to break up the piss on PsyD programs party, but this is just not true or very unusual. Never heard of it, doesn't happen in my program or other PsyD programs where I have friends and colleagues, and it's against APA regulations (so it can't happen in an APA accredited program). Hearing of one instance (N of 1) does not mean "Oh my God all those programs do this." I would expect anyone who understands stats and has a sense of APA or APPIC rules and guidelines to disregard the quoted comment above. This forum is meant to be helpful and fair, not a place to unleash unfounded one upsmanship. I would advise anyone trying to make a decision to completely disregard comments like the one quoted above.

 

[Pragma]

I had two students tell me this during the past two years while applying for internships. It isn't a rumor. I never said it was all programs.

Admittedly the two students both expressed frustration with their respective DCTs. They had been told they could not apply to places that they wanted to apply to. I thought that was wrong. I'd hope this is not a widespread practice- it seemed to me that the DCT acted as the gatekeeper. That might make sense if it is about staying within a cap or being sure it is an accredited internship, but I would hate to be told no to applying to certain sites. Maybe it was informal and not a policy. But data were referenced about the low liklihood of matching for a particular student and they were told they were not supported in applying. Hopefully it was just a bad DCT in these cases.

On a side note, this wasn't about bashing PsyD programs. I felt terrible for these students. I thought bringing this up here might help shed light on possible bad practices. Some students may not know it is wrong or not think to advocate for themselves. In these cases the students weren't aware that other programs handled it differently.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

And to be fair, as mentioned by Pragma, it may speak more to the DCT than to the program type. My own former DCT was, in years preceding my cycle, hesitant to sign off on more than ~10 applications per student because they felt it was superfluous and unnecessary to send out that many. It wasn't prohibited, but I wouldn't say it was encouraged, either.

If your DCT and/or advisor has a "heart-to-heart" with you about their thoughts on your objective chances at a particular site (e.g., applying to Brown with no prior research productivity), that's one thing. But regardless of the type of program, to just outright prohibit such applications is trouble.

 

[Pragma]

Never heard of it, doesn't happen in my program or other PsyD programs where I have friends and colleagues, and it's against APA regulations (so it can't happen in an APA accredited program).

I'll go ahead and ignore the reference to Trump and whatever you felt bring on the need to think that I am engaging in one upsmanship (I'm not). But I am not sure that this is true. What regulation is being violated?

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/policies/guiding-principles.pdf

I looked through this document and found nothing to protect a student from having total autonomy on applying to internship sites. The question remains intact - is there some loophole? There might not even need to be.

When I applied, I made the decision on where to on my own. The DCT was available but not particularly involved - this is where this discussion had begun earlier in the thread. I mentioned that it might have something to do with a DCT's behavior than program-level differences. But no one ever told me I couldn't apply to a particular site. When I heard that had happened with some other students, I thought it was worth mentioning. I'll do you a favor and not respond to you making negative assumptions, which sadly is not a courtesy that you extended towards me.

Let's take an example - there have been some discussions in the past indicating that some sites just don't usually take people from some schools. Maybe a particular VA has not taken on trainees from a local FSPS program (let's just use a vague example). In theory, that FSPS program could say, "OK, we don't allow our students to apply there then because it is a waste of time and resources. We'll guide them towards places they are more likely to match to." Is there a problem with this? I think there is - what would stop a place from taking on a strong student at some point? There is no harm in just applying.

In my world I engage professionally with both PhD and PsyD students and graduates. Sometimes I have been in a position where I've had to tell PsyD students to forget what their program is telling them and not limit themselves. They can get other experiences and be successful despite negative stigma that is out there, some of it self-directed by programs giving students false messages, maybe through what they consider to be practical advice. I pride myself on sending the message that it is about their skills/abilities/experience, and I prided myself on helping out those students with their preparation for interviews (the one last year matched). My problem is with the programs themselves, not the students in the programs. But hey, keep on making assumptions. Some of us will try to actually help students in the real world.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think it's important to stop this rumor in it's tracks, which was posted by a person who is not in a PsyD program but apparently has a deep "understanding." This is like some weird Donald Trump level of BS claim. I hate to break up the piss on PsyD programs party, but this is just not true or very unusual. Never heard of it, doesn't happen in my program or other PsyD programs where I have friends and colleagues, and it's against APA regulations (so it can't happen in an APA accredited program). Hearing of one instance (N of 1) does not mean "Oh my God all those programs do this." I would expect anyone who understands stats and has a sense of APA or APPIC rules and guidelines to disregard the quoted comment above. This forum is meant to be helpful and fair, not a place to unleash unfounded one upsmanship. I would advise anyone trying to make a decision to completely disregard comments like the one quoted above.

It happens, I know many more than a n of 1, colleagues and students, who can confirm that this happens.

 

[smalltownpsych]

If you can't make the case to your dct about why you would match at a site then maybe you should listen to them. Our program didn't tell us where to apply or where not to. They just said apply to lots of sites and i think you had to get special permission to apply to a non-APA site. I don't know for sure since I only applied to APA sites and didn't really ask anyone which sites I should apply to because by that time I had a good idea what I was looking for training-wise and what I was qualified for by experience.

Edit to add: btw it was a PsyD programs I that's my n=1

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I've seen many DCTs/programs bar apps to non-APA acred. sites, which helps protect the student from problems w. licensure down the road. I've also seen programs go case by case for non-APA acred. sites, to ensure adequate training standards.

 

[Pragma]

I've seen many DCTs/programs bar apps to non-APA acred. sites, which helps protect the student from problems w. licensure down the road. I've also seen programs go case by case for non-APA acred. sites, to ensure adequate training standards.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I am referencing a program telling a student that they can't apply to an awesome APA site because statistically the odds of them taking one of their students is really low.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I am referencing a program telling a student that they can't apply to an awesome APA site because statistically the odds of them taking one of their students is really low.

I'd have a problem with that as well, regardless of the type of program. Like I mentioned above--might a DCT suggest a student seriously consider their competitiveness at a particular site? Sure. Should they bar it outright (unless it violates program reqs such as by being non-accredited)? No (IMO).

 

[Rick4001s]

I'm confused as to why everyone gets caught up on the price, if we are willing to take on the debt. Nobody had issues when I took out a loan for my car or any other investments.

For the cost of some PsyD programs, you could take out a loan and buy a Ferrari 488GTB. You could justify this by pointing out that some people make a lot of money driving Ferrari's in places such as LeMans, and that you might do so also. That doesn't make it a good idea, particularly if a Honda will get you to your destination.

 

[experi_mental]

For the cost of some PsyD programs, you could take out a loan and buy a Ferrari 488GTB. You could justify this by pointing out that some people make a lot of money driving Ferrari's in places such as LeMans, and that you might do so also. That doesn't make it a good idea, particularly if a Honda will get you to your destination.

It's not as though people struggle to decide whether they should accept a psyd or funded PhD offer; they generally don't have a choice. You are the equivalent of a rich white guy ridiculing poor people for renting their whole lives when a house would save them money over time. Thanks, they know.

 

[WisNeuro]

The "I don't have a choice" excuse is rarely the actual case when people really explain their case. It usually boils down to, "I like where I live and don't want to ever move." Or, "my CV is no bueno."

 

[erg923]

It's not as though people struggle to decide whether they should accept a psyd or funded PhD offer; they generally don't have a choice.

So, they have been stripped of their free will in this particular situation?

Obviously, no. They do. They choose not to make another choice, right?

 

[experi_mental]

The "I don't have a choice" excuse is rarely the actual case when people really explain their case. It usually boils down to, "I like where I live and don't want to ever move." Or, "my CV is no bueno."

Yeah, their cv is not good and they don't have the knowledge, skills or resources to work an unpaid research internship like I did. You are continuing the argument by saying "if you had gone to college, you would have the money to buy the house"

Edit: how many of you were second or later generation college with family support? Do you see no connection between this and the choices you made and opportunities you had?

 

[WisNeuro]

Hey man, whatever you need to tell yourself.

 

[erg923]

Yeah, their cv is not good and they don't have the knowledge, skills or resources to work an unpaid research internship like I did. You are continuing the argument by saying "if you had gone to college, you would have the money to buy the house"

Edit: how many of you were second or later generation college with family support? Do you see no connection between this and the choices you made and opportunities you had?

Fair enough. So why do then then have "no choice" but to go to Psy.D program??? This is a ridiculous argument you seem to be trying to make here.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, their cv is not good and they don't have the knowledge, skills or resources to work an unpaid research internship like I did. You are continuing the argument by saying "if you had gone to college, you would have the money to buy the house"

Edit: how many of you were second or later generation college with family support? Do you see no connection between this and the choices you made and opportunities you had?

No family support whatsoever. I still managed to complete college and graduate school with zero debt. There's no justification for a diploma mill like Argosy/Alliant/Fielding. Plenty of reputable PhD and PsyD programs out there.

 

[Rick4001s]

It's not as though people struggle to decide whether they should accept a psyd or funded PhD offer; they generally don't have a choice.....Thanks, they know.

I don't believe they always do know--that is, know that they very well might be able to reach their intended destination with an MSW or MA in counseling, either option far less expensive than a for-profit PsyD. Of course they have a choice. And, somehow it is an attitude of the "rich" to advocate not taking the most expensive option?

 

[deleted343839]

I grew up working class and was first in my family to attend college thanks in large part to various paying jobs and need-based aid including Pell grants, state-level grants, etc. College was a bit of a culture shock in some respects but I worked hard at it, and I got into a funded Ph.D. program with a very strong reputation. Never did it occur to me to apply to anything but reputable training programs that weren't going to drown me in debt. I figured if I couldn't get in to one of those I'd pursue a different career.

 

[Peacemaker36]

Yes, in my area schools do try to control where their students apply for internship. Another element that hasn't been discussed is that schools want to maintain relationships with internship sites over time. If students from a large PsyD program habitually send 40 applicants to an internship site, the site is understandably going to feel overwhelmed and will eventually make a unilateral decision to stop taking applications from that program.

 

[erg923]

Yes, in my area schools do try to control where their students apply for internship. Another element that hasn't been discussed is that schools want to maintain relationships with internship sites over time. If students from a large PsyD program habitually send 40 applicants to an internship site, the site is understandably going to feel overwhelmed and will eventually make a unilateral decision to stop taking applications from that program.

Reviewing applications is part of having an internship program. If you are annoyed at this, then you should rethink having an internship.

Obviously, there are not 40 spots available, and all open spots are very unlikely to go to to students from just one program, but who am I to tell students, "Dont apply here, too many of you "overwhelm" me. How ridiculous.

 

[WisNeuro]

Reviewing applications is part of having an internship program. If you are annoyed at this, then you should rethink having an internship.

Obviously, there are not 40 spots available, and all open spots are very unlikely to go to to students from just one program, but who am I to tell students, "Dont apply here, too many of you "overwhelm" me. How ridiculous.

I know people who do this. It's mainly to cut down on getting 30+ applications from certain diploma mills. Honestly, I'm all for it. Save the students trouble of applying in the first place if the training committee will likely not even look at their applications.

There's an easy way to do it on the internship rank list too. There is an option to only take the first X number of students from any one institution. If it hits that cap, all other applicants are passed over.

 

[PsyDr]

God, the PsyD/PhD debates mean nothing and get us nowhere. Your dad could beat up my dad. Doesn't change the fact there are dozens of more pressing problems with the field: midlevels, reimbursement, idiots who will take on too many loans and then accept jobs that pay similar to the head waiter at a Howard johnson's, lack of physician status with cms, etc etc etc.

My take on the "debate"

 

[smalltownpsych]

God, the PsyD/PhD debates mean nothing and get us nowhere. Your dad could beat up my dad. Doesn't change the fact there are dozens of more pressing problems with the field: midlevels, reimbursement, idiots who will take on too many loans and then accept jobs that pay similar to the head waiter at a Howard johnson's, lack of physician status with cms, etc etc etc.

My take on the "debate"

Wanted to hit the like button a couple of times for this.

 

[@Wonderwoman]

OP, I think you have to do your research about the programs and find out if they will meet your needs (i.e., clinical training, research emphasis, etc). In the end, you will make the right decision, you will move forward with your life, and you will forget everything ever mentioned about the Ph.D vs. Psy.D debate. Let me provide you an example:

When I graduated from undergrad, I had very little research experience and desire to conduct research in graduate school. I applied to clinical Ph.D. programs and was not accepted. I decided to accept an offer for a clinical psychology masters program, where I would complete a thesis and participate on a variety of research teams. I graduated with a 3.95 from that program and applied for clinical Ph.D. programs once again, with the same result. I also applied to a Psy.D program that I knew fit my clinical training needs and was congruent to my research interests. Yes, I would have loved to be in a Ph.D. program, as I will seek an academic teaching position in the future; however, that was not in the cards for me. I graduate this year after matching with an amazing internship site and this February I accepting a post-doc position at a well known site. In the end, the Psy.D pathway has resulted in debt, but it has also provided me the opportunity to gain amazing training and accomplish my career goals (becoming a psychologist). At this point in my studies, the Ph.D. vs. Psy.D debate has little to no relevance in my life (other than these threads where the same people push their one sided elitist opinions) and the same will happen for you, regardless which pathway you select.

I am aware that the debate will creep in again, specifically when I begin submitting applications for teaching positions; however, I know the value and experience I bring to the interview. To this point, my degree has not held me back from any opportunities and I think if you do your part (aka - study your ass off), you will find the same results.

Find your path, embrace it, and flip the bird to anyone that tells you otherwise! Good luck and hit me up if you need anything (although I don't check the forum that often)!

i am kind of in the same boat. its true, more people you talk to higher the confusion is.
i am currently going through it, needless to say still confused.

however, may i ask what difference did you feel in Psy.D program as compared to Ph.D? be it research wise/ clinical exposure or future job opportunities.

i hope you'll be able to see this reply after about 3 years.

 

[WisNeuro]

however, may i ask what difference did you feel in Psy.D program as compared to Ph.D? be it research wise/ clinical exposure or future job opportunities.

Highly depends on the program. With the reputable ones, you really won't notice much of a difference between a Psyd and balances PhD, aside from the cost in some instances. For the non-reputable ones, you'll definitely notice the debt burden and the difficulty in obtaining an accredited internship.

 

[@Wonderwoman]

Highly depends on the program. With the reputable ones, you really won't notice much of a difference between a Psyd and balances PhD, aside from the cost in some instances. For the non-reputable ones, you'll definitely notice the debt burden and the difficulty in obtaining an accredited internship.

True. i have been doing a "research" on both!
thinking i should apply for both as many have said, that there's not much of difference between the two courses.

again, everyones opinions will differ based on their experiences in the universities. so no point in scratching head over this.