Lying About Race

[SkipJunior]

I read this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lying-about-race.281049

but I wasn't satisfied with the responses, it turned into your typical anti-URM debate which I'm not interested in continuing in this thread.

My question is, are applicants punished for lying about their race in the primary and secondary applications?

I would assume that a lot of these applicants are caught during the interviews because the interviewers can tell that the applicant had lied about his/her race (though this is hard to tell at times) and the punishment would therefore be a rejection letter for lying in their application.

What about the people who claim to be URM or part URM and get accepted? Will they be caught at a later date, when they are a medical student, resident, or attending? Will their medical license be revoked? How will the school prove that the applicant/student is lying? Submit him/her to a racial genetics test? Even if the applicant is caught when he/she is a medical student or resident, couldn't that applicant just claim that the interviewers saw how he/she looked like during the interview and still decided to give an acceptance?

My views on this issue is that lying about anything on the application or interview is unacceptable.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Lying on your AMCAS is grounds for rejection or dismissal at any point during medical school (theoretically forever).

 

[SkipJunior]

Lying on your AMCAS is grounds for rejection or dismissal at any point during medical school (theoretically forever).

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that.

What if someone is honest about her race in the AMCAS application but then lies about her race in the secondary application? Is it the same thing then?

 

[medic86]

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that.

What if someone is honest about her race in the AMCAS application but then lies about her race in the secondary application? Is it the same thing then?

What kind of question is this? Who the f*** would ask this question?

The answer is obvious.

 

[SkipJunior]

What kind of question is this? Who the f*** would ask this question?

The answer is obvious.

Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

Go ahead, lie.

 

[gjitec]

Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

I don't think you are going to get an objective answer.

My advice:
If you are planning on doing this, go through all the similar threads on SDN, and look for all the objections, or "reasons why it won't work" posts. I'm new to SDN, but I believe there are some adcom members who post. I would pay closer attention to their comments.

Once you find these posts, compile a list, and have answers ready (memorized) for a variety of 'authentication' queries. Make sure you are consistent (in regards to the information you give on applications) with whatever race you pick throughout the process.

If you can do that, I think you should be fine.

 

[gjitec]

.

 

[WillburCobb]

1/10 - someone hasn't been getting the attention they want lately.

 

[LombardiM]

Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

WHY would you want to lie about your race?!?! What is your race and what are you trying to lie and say that you are?

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

I don't think you are going to get an objective answer.

My advice:
If you are planning on doing this, go through all the similar threads on SDN, and look for all the objections, or "reasons why it won't work" posts. I'm new to SDN, but I believe there are some adcom members who post. I would pay closer attention to their comments.

Once you find these posts, compile a list, and have answers ready (memorized) for a variety of 'authentication' queries. Make sure you are consistent (in regards to the information you give on applications) with whatever race you pick throughout the process.

If you can do that, I think you should be fine.

Wait, are you serious?

...

Sigh. Don't lie on your application, especially about race. Simply being URM has some benefit for schools depending on their situation (i.e. some will get in trouble if they don't have X percent URM per class), but beyond that if your life experiences are not informed by the race you're checking the box for it's not as relevant as insecure ORMs would like to believe. I have friends who are URM but have zero experience interacting with others of their race 1) because of upbringing in a white neighborhood and 2) because of the conscious choice not to work with those populations during college. They wrote some nonsense about living the struggle in their primary/secondaries and, lo and behold, they were asked to voice their thoughts about minority issues during interviews. In spite of pre-med math saying that a 3.5/3.5/34 MCAT URM should be able to go to Harvard by flying a race card, my one female AA friend has no acceptances from even "low-tier" schools. Inauthenticity isn't hard to determine and I am hypothesizing that at 3/5 of my interviews I was paired with minority interviewers for that very purpose.

If you want to exploit minorities who have historically struggled with systemic racism in the US, go volunteer in a low-income neighborhood so they at least get something out of it.

 

[peanutsss]

....

 

[samac]

I don't think you are going to get an objective answer.

My advice:
If you are planning on doing this, go through all the similar threads on SDN, and look for all the objections, or "reasons why it won't work" posts. I'm new to SDN, but I believe there are some adcom members who post. I would pay closer attention to their comments.

Once you find these posts, compile a list, and have answers ready (memorized) for a variety of 'authentication' queries. Make sure you are consistent (in regards to the information you give on applications) with whatever race you pick throughout the process.

If you can do that, I think you should be fine.

Just no. If anyone is reading this and thinks it's a good idea remember NO.

 

[NickNaylor]

We recently had an applicant that claimed URM status, but a couple of the interviewers questions how legitimate this claim was. The applicant came from a well-to-do background and while technically a URM, there was some doubt as to whether or not the URM qualifier was actually appropriate to use in his case.

Since the way the question is phrased on AMCAS, if you think you qualify as a URM then you should mark yourself as such. But understand that self-designation in and of itself doesn't mean much. If an admissions committee has questions about whether you are a URM in the sense that it is intended, then you will receive no benefit from that designation. In this case, the applicant was actually harmed by going this route as he was perceived as being dishonest at worst or somewhat misleading at best.

This assumes that you're able to successfully "lie" about your race to begin with.

 

[SkipJunior]

WHY would you want to lie about your race?!?! What is your race and what are you trying to lie and say that you are?

I was asking a theoretical question. I never said I wanted to lie about anything, let alone my race. I have not lied nor will I lie in the future.

 

[LombardiM]

I was asking a theoretical question. I never said I wanted to lie about anything, let alone my race. I have not lied nor will I lie in the future.

Yeah sure. I totally believe you.

 

[SkipJunior]

We recently had an applicant that claimed URM status, but a couple of the interviewers questions how legitimate this claim was. The applicant came from a well-to-do background and while technically a URM, there was some doubt as to whether or not the URM qualifier was actually appropriate to use in his case.

Since the way the question is phrased on AMCAS, if you think you qualify as a URM then you should mark yourself as such. But understand that self-designation in and of itself doesn't mean much. If an admissions committee has questions about whether you are a URM in the sense that it is intended, then you will receive no benefit from that designation. In this case, the applicant was actually harmed by going this route as he was perceived as being dishonest at worst or somewhat misleading at best.

This assumes that you're able to successfully "lie" about your race to begin with.

Always an honor to have an esteemed member such as yourself respond to my thread. Thank you for your honest and cogent response.

So what you're saying is that the chance of someone being "caught lying" about their race after they've started medical school is unlikely because the interviewers will be able to tell if the applicant is lying or not, especially by looking at the applicant's life experiences? Plus self designating URM is not a big deal if you don't have the life experiences to back it up.

 

[SkipJunior]

Yeah sure. I totally believe you.

Whether you believe me or not is not something I'm concerned about.

 

[NickNaylor]

Always an honor to have an esteemed member such as yourself respond to my thread. Thank you for your honest and cogent response.

So what you're saying is that the chance of someone being "caught lying" about their race after they've started medical school is unlikely because the interviewers will be able to tell if the applicant is lying or not, especially by looking at the applicant's life experiences? Plus self designating URM is not a big deal if you don't have the life experiences to back it up.

No, that's pretty much the opposite of what I said. If you claim URM status but don't have any experiences to "back up" that claim and/or demonstrate an interest in serving underserved communities, then the URM designator may not mean much. Obviously this isn't 100% true, but the point is that blindly marking URM is unlikely to be helpful in and of itself.

No one can reasonably question your race. No one is going to give you a blood test to analyze your ancestry. But if you're going to claim that you belong to an underrepresented group, then it should be clear that you identify with that group and that you have had experiences that make that designation meaningful. A URM that comes from two parents that are professionals is not going to be viewed in the same light as a URM that comes from a single-parent or impoverished household with parents that didn't graduate high school.

 

[SkipJunior]

Let me clarify any misconceptions, I'm not asking about myself.

My cycle is mostly over and I didn't lie in my application. If I had, I may have had a lot more success this cycle.....then again, I may not have as well.

I raised this issue today because I think it's unfair that someone can lie about their race and get a leg up. However, after reading some responses from people who are far more knowledgeable than me (like @NickNaylor ) I understand that even if an applicant is technically a URM, if they don't have the life experiences and past work experience to back it up, it's not of much use.

 

[LombardiM]

Whether you believe me or not is not something I'm concerned about.

Well good for you! Good luck with whatever lie you are trying to commit. Pretty sad when people have to consider trickery on an application to get into a program. Just speaks to their unworthiness to be in said program in the first place. If they couldn't get in on their own hard work, they don't belong there, and if they are willing to lie about who they are, they will lie about something else, which further shows that they don't belong there. And for someone who has not and will never consider lying you sure are spending a whole lot of time finding out how a liar would be punished, although common sense tells us that a liar would be rejected. We have enough unethical people in the medical profession and don't need any more. But I'm sure you are speaking the truth, you would never even think to lie about your race. You just started this whole thing just because.... Oh yeah. No good answer to that. Well, I've wasted enough of my time Have a wonderful day!

 

[SkipJunior]

1/10 - someone hasn't been getting the attention they want lately.

Yet here you are, posting here and giving me attention.

Here's a pro-tip, if you think someone's attention seeking and you don't like them, don't give them attention by responding to their threads.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that.

What if someone is honest about her race in the AMCAS application but then lies about her race in the secondary application? Is it the same thing then?

This would put them in jeopardy because of the fact that they clearly have a conflict of information since the primary and secondary answers differ.

That being said, most secondaries that I remember don't aska bout race.

 

[SkipJunior]

Well good for you! Good luck with whatever lie you are trying to commit. Pretty sad when people have to consider trickery on an application to get into a program. Just speaks to their unworthiness to be in said program in the first place. If they couldn't get in on their own hard work, they don't belong there, and if they are willing to lie about who they are, they will lie about something else, which further shows that they don't belong there. And for someone who has not and will never consider lying you sure are spending a whole lot of time finding out how a liar would be punished, although common sense tells us that a liar would be rejected. We have enough unethical people in the medical profession and don't need any more. But I'm sure you are speaking the truth, you would never even think to lie about your race. You just started this whole thing just because.... Oh yeah. No good answer to that. Well, I've wasted enough of my time Have a wonderful day!

I'm sorry that you have formed a negative opinion about me. The truth is, you don't know me so I request that you don't judge me prematurely.

I agree with you, lying is not acceptable. I'm a firm believer in honesty and integrity.

I started this thread because I've heard rumors that applicants do lie in their applications about their race. I wanted to know if they will get away scot-free or not. My cycle is nearly over. I submitted my primary and secondary applications nearly a year ago. I'm not asking about myself.

 

[Goro]

As I would say to my children, Skip "C'mon, use your little brain"

Sorry to be harsh. But imagine how this would turn out.

Applicant lies about being, say, Hispanic on app.

Applicant gets II.

Applicant walks into interview room, and what would the interviewers see, and then do??

Lie on any app, and you might as well set it on fire.
Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

I read this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lying-about-race.281049

but I wasn't satisfied with the responses, it turned into your typical anti-URM debate which I'm not interested in continuing in this thread.

My question is, are applicants punished for lying about their race in the primary and secondary applications?

I would assume that a lot of these applicants are caught during the interviews because the interviewers can tell that the applicant had lied about his/her race (though this is hard to tell at times) and the punishment would therefore be a rejection letter for lying in their application.

What about the people who claim to be URM or part URM and get accepted? Will they be caught at a later date, when they are a medical student, resident, or attending? Will their medical license be revoked? How will the school prove that the applicant/student is lying? Submit him/her to a racial genetics test? Even if the applicant is caught when he/she is a medical student or resident, couldn't that applicant just claim that the interviewers saw how he/she looked like during the interview and still decided to give an acceptance?

My views on this issue is that lying about anything on the application or interview is unacceptable.

 

[SkipJunior]

As I would say to my children, Skip "C'mon, use your little brain"

Sorry to be harsh. But imagine how this would turn out.

Applicant lies about being, say, Hispanic on app.

Applicant gets II.

Applicant walks into interview room, and what would the interviewers see, and then do??

Lie on any app, and you might as well set it on fire.
Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

Thanks for confirming that. As a adcom member, I especially appreciate your input.

If a applicant lies about their race, then they will get caught during the interview. Got it. I'm glad to know that they won't get away with it.

 

[SkipJunior]

I don't think you are going to get an objective answer.

My advice:
If you are planning on doing this, go through all the similar threads on SDN, and look for all the objections, or "reasons why it won't work" posts. I'm new to SDN, but I believe there are some adcom members who post. I would pay closer attention to their comments.

Once you find these posts, compile a list, and have answers ready (memorized) for a variety of 'authentication' queries. Make sure you are consistent (in regards to the information you give on applications) with whatever race you pick throughout the process.

If you can do that, I think you should be fine.

I'm sure you mean well but please don't give tips on how to lie in a application. That will never work out well.

I applied already and even I hadn't applied yet, I would not lie.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

We recently had an applicant that claimed URM status, but a couple of the interviewers questions how legitimate this claim was. The applicant came from a well-to-do background and while technically a URM, there was some doubt as to whether or not the URM qualifier was actually appropriate to use in his case.

Since the way the question is phrased on AMCAS, if you think you qualify as a URM then you should mark yourself as such. But understand that self-designation in and of itself doesn't mean much. If an admissions committee has questions about whether you are a URM in the sense that it is intended, then you will receive no benefit from that designation. In this case, the applicant was actually harmed by going this route as he was perceived as being dishonest at worst or somewhat misleading at best.

This assumes that you're able to successfully "lie" about your race to begin with.

I may be misremembering, but there is no actual "URM status" check box. You check your racial identity and then there's a separate area for "disadvantaged". If you are of a race that falls under URM definition, you're not lying even if you're Carlton from Fresh Prince of Bell-Air. Did this person check "disadvantaged"?

Regardless, it's up to schools to determine how they interpret URM- I've heard some committee extending the definition to Colombians, Dominicans, certain Pacific Islanders, etc. This makes the diversity of your experiences equally as important as your ethnic identity.

 

[Qwerty2013]

Lying about race is is definitely not the way to go and unacceptable in any case. But I've also known a couple of people who are white (even with Red hair/freckles!) with very Caucasian names, raised in the US, but were able to check off Hispanic because they were simply born in a Spanish country. lol. it did work out very out well for them in college and med school admissions.

 

[SkipJunior]

Lying about race is is definitely not the way to go and unacceptable in any case. But I've also known a couple of people who are white (even with Red hair/freckles!) with very Caucasian names, raised in the US, but were able to check off Hispanic because they were simply born in a Spanish country. lol. it did work out very out well for them in college and med school admissions.

Interesting.

 

[touchpause13]

Lying about race is is definitely not the way to go and unacceptable in any case. But I've also known a couple of people who are white (even with Red hair/freckles!) with very Caucasian names, raised in the US, but were able to check off Hispanic because they were simply born in a Spanish country. lol. it did work out very out well for them in college and med school admissions.

Hispanic isn't a race. You can be white and Hispanic.

And good lord OP, lying about your race or misrepresenting yourself in any way would be grounds for dismissal, if you made it past the interview that is. I just thing the risk reward doesn't add up at all.

 

[gjitec]

I don't think you are going to get an objective answer.

My advice:
If you are planning on doing this, go through all the similar threads on SDN, and look for all the objections, or "reasons why it won't work" posts. I'm new to SDN, but I believe there are some adcom members who post. I would pay closer attention to their comments.

Once you find these posts, compile a list, and have answers ready (memorized) for a variety of 'authentication' queries. Make sure you are consistent (in regards to the information you give on applications) with whatever race you pick throughout the process.

If you can do that, I think you should be fine.

Just no. If anyone is reading this and thinks it's a good idea remember NO.

Typical. Everyone's breath doesn't smell like honesty. People are free to do whatever they want. Take it or leave it.

If you are good, why not play the system? If you can't play the system, for whatever reason (morals, self-confidence), then don't. It's a hard world out there.

But this isn't a question of morals. It's about what can be done, if one tries.

To OP:
Cool thought experiment.

However, after reading some responses from people who are far more knowledgeable than me (like @NickNaylor ) I understand that even if an applicant is technically a URM, if they don't have the life experiences and past work experience to back it up, it's not of much use.

My first post incarnate. Just fake that, and you can "lie" with more confidence. Preparation and practice are the keys, if you choose that path.

I'm not trolling, just stating a possible course of action. You can choose to gamble however you wish.

 

[SkipJunior]

Hispanic isn't a race. You can be white and Hispanic.

And good lord OP, lying about your race or misrepresenting yourself in any way would be grounds for dismissal, if you made it past the interview that is. I just thing the risk reward doesn't add up at all.

I agree but I've made it clear in my earlier posts on this thread that I was not referring to myself. I have not lied and nor will I do so in the future. As you said, the risk vs rewards simply does not add up.

 

[gjitec]

I agree but I've made it clear in my earlier posts on this thread that I was not referring to myself. I have not lied and nor will I do so in the future. As you said, the risk vs rewards simply does not add up.

That depends on your preparation. If you rob a bank like they did in Dog Day Afternoon, then you are screwed. But if you prep, like in Swordfish, or Ocean's 11, you stand a way better chance of getting away with it.

 

[touchpause13]

Yes, but My point is that they qualified for "URM" status. Anyhow...if you can use it to your advantage.. I guess why not, right?

I doubt it actually gave them that much advantage
Not saying their heritage is also lying

 

[LizzyM]

If someone doesn't "look" like the race they list on the application and doesn't seem to have any engagement with others of that racial group but their MCAT score is 3 points above the school's average and the GPA is 0.2 above the school's average, then the whole race/ethnicity thing is likely to be overlooked and the applicant will be considered like any ORM.

 

[gjitec]

...the applicant will be considered like any ORM.

"ORM" is not listed in the Pre-medical & Pre-Pharmacy Student Glossary.

New member. Please define.

 

[SkipJunior]

If someone doesn't "look" like the race they list on the application and doesn't seem to have any engagement with others of that racial group but their MCAT score is 3 points above the school's average and the GPA is 0.2 above the school's average, then the whole race/ethnicity thing is likely to be overlooked and the applicant will be considered like any ORM.

won't they receive an automatic rejection for dishonesty?

 

[NickNaylor]

"ORM" is not listed in the Pre-medical & Pre-Pharmacy Student Glossary.

New member. Please define.

Overrepresented in medicine, i.e., white, Asian, and perhaps south Asian folks.

 

[LizzyM]

won't they receive an automatic rejection for dishonesty?

Short of requiring a DNA test, how would I know someone is being dishonest. What does "Native American" look like? Ditto "Hispanic". If the applicant has stats that are well above average, who am I to judge? They could get in by saying "white" or "Asian" but didn't. Why should they lie if their stats are good enough to get them in without lying. (for arguments sake lets say 3.95/39).

 

[SkipJunior]

Overrepresented in medicine, i.e., white, Asian, and perhaps south Asian folks.

From what I understand, South Asians are definitely considered to be ORM. I remember reading somewhere that Indian Americans make up 1% of the American population but about 10% of the American physician workforce. South Asians tick the Asian box on their AMCAS application and the AAMC data indicate that they have to have higher MCAT scores and GPA to be accepted.

 

[gjitec]

Overrepresented in medicine, i.e., white, Asian, and perhaps south Asian folks.

Ah, makes sense.

Well, going with this logic, what's the acronym for just rightly represented in medicine?

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

As I would say to my children, Skip "C'mon, use your little brain"

Sorry to be harsh. But imagine how this would turn out.

Applicant lies about being, say, Hispanic on app.

Applicant gets II.

Applicant walks into interview room, and what would the interviewers see, and then do??

Lie on any app, and you might as well set it on fire.
Sorry, I just want to be a 100% clear. So the same consequence if one lies on their secondary but not on their primary?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but what does looks have to do with determining whether the applicant lied or not? I have met plenty of 100% Hispanic and/or Puerto Rican people that could easily pass for Italian or European. Hell, one of my interviewers this year was born in Cuba and I would have sworn they were from Spain or Portugal. I really hope adcoms aren't just looking at someone and determining that the person is lying without first asking for clarification.

 

[gjitec]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but what does looks have to do with determining whether the applicant lied or not? I have met plenty of 100% Hispanic and/or Puerto Rican people that could easily pass for Italian or European. Hell, one of my interviewers this year was born in Cuba and I would have sworn they were from Spain or Portugal. I really hope adcoms aren't just looking at someone and determining that the person is lying without first asking for clarification.

As LizzyM said, they don't really care...

Short of requiring a DNA test, how would I know someone is being dishonest. What does "Native American" look like? Ditto "Hispanic". If the applicant has stats that are well above average, who am I to judge? They could get in by saying "white" or "Asian" but didn't. Why should they lie if their stats are good enough to get them in without lying. (for arguments sake lets say 3.95/39).

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

As LizzyM said, they don't really care...

I read that, but Goro is also a respected adcom on this board and said otherwise, so there seems to be a split opinion.

 

[EasternMer]

I read this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lying-about-race.281049

but I wasn't satisfied with the responses, it turned into your typical anti-URM debate which I'm not interested in continuing in this thread.

My question is, are applicants punished for lying about their race in the primary and secondary applications?

I would assume that a lot of these applicants are caught during the interviews because the interviewers can tell that the applicant had lied about his/her race (though this is hard to tell at times) and the punishment would therefore be a rejection letter for lying in their application.

What about the people who claim to be URM or part URM and get accepted? Will they be caught at a later date, when they are a medical student, resident, or attending? Will their medical license be revoked? How will the school prove that the applicant/student is lying? Submit him/her to a racial genetics test? Even if the applicant is caught when he/she is a medical student or resident, couldn't that applicant just claim that the interviewers saw how he/she looked like during the interview and still decided to give an acceptance?

My views on this issue is that lying about anything on the application or interview is unacceptable.

Dude, it's job fraud. This is serious. Don't start a career on a lie.

There should be serious reprecussions.

 

[gjitec]

Dude, it's job fraud. This is serious. Don't start a career on a lie.

There should be serious reprecussions.

Like this guy.

Classical Armenian... Lol, lmfao

But, he was one of the OK liars out there. The great ones don't get caught.

 

[EasternMer]

Like this guy.

Classical Armenian... Lol, lmfao

But, he was one of the OK liars out there. The great ones don't get caught.

His resume, if anyone wants to waste a few minutes: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/Wheeler-redacted.pdf

That's like egregious. This guy should've known he was messed up.

 

[gjitec]

His resume, if anyone wants to waste a few minutes: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/Wheeler-redacted.pdf

That's like egregious. This guy should've known he was messed up.

I suddenly feel like watching Catch me if you can

 

[EasternMer]

I suddenly feel like watching Catch me if you can

Leonardo's best work imo