Lying About Race

[gjitec]

Does the URM bonus apply to all schools, public and private?

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[The Helpful Aye Aye]

Does the URM bonus apply to all schools, public and private?

 

[Goro]

100% agreed. We're doing no one any favors by accepting them if we don't think they can't make it through out program, no matter how it makes our student demographics look.

Anecdote: Girl in Chemistry Lecture when I was a sophomore told me an outlandish story about a "friend" of hers that said she was Hispanic on Med Apps but she was actually South Asian. (Note, when people relate unethical stories about "friends" I've found it's most likely their own unethical fantasies that they're trying on other people to see how outlandish or egregious they might be). Anyways, story went on that she got like a million II's and accepted at Duke even though her MCAT was in the high 20's. Lies. Lies. Lies. Just because she's Hispanic, she's not going to get a bunch of II's if her MCAT is so low.

Anyways, the whole idea is stupid. Adcoms aren't dumb. They can see where you were born, and probably where your parents were born too. So like, an Indian girl literally cannot pull off a Hispanic background. Just like a white girl, or an asian girl, or a whoever girl can't either.

Lies are lies are lies are lies. Simple as that. I'd personally be ashamed if I got admitted on the fact that I lied about my ethnicity. Even if it realistically never came into play, I'd always think that was the reason. And then...your whole life kind of turns into a lie.

Job Fraud = NO.

 

[touchpause13]

So can you only pick one ethicity/race or can you mix and match/select all? My children have a great grandmother who was a native South American Indian, three German Great-Grandparents, one Scottish Great-Grampa, one Nisei Great Grandparent (Nisei - son of Japanise born in Brazil), and two Mulatos Great Grandparents (Mulato - mixed white and black ethnicity). That covers nearly every demografic out there except Aboriginal Australian.

Is race really that big of a deal to people in the US when selecting a candidate for jobs/school?

STAHPPP

 

[RedPhys]

So because they're not the right color, and don't have the right last name, they won't receive an advantage; despite having the same experiences that affirmative action for hispanics in medicine was designed for?

Pretty sure that for a medical school in the right area (e.g. Miami), it would be a big boost to their application if they know how to sell that strength.

 

[touchpause13]

Don't take things so personally. URMs do a great deal of good to the communities they serve. You're sitting at an advantage, enjoy it. In the end, what is, is. I'm not a URM, I'll have to get in how people of my race get in, have scores that are similar to theirs. I don't believe in that, but there's not much one can do.

Best of luck in medical school. I didn't say or insinuate half the things you said, nor did I say that URMs are undeserving. So...see ya!

1. This was rude
2. Most people get in by having stats similar to the averages of their race. That's how the game is played unless you have some other interesting thing about your app (commitment to rural care, military service, interesting life story, tons of research experience, etc)

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Pretty sure that for a medical school in the right area (e.g. Miami), it would be a big boost to their application if they know how to sell that strength.

I agree. If you're fluent in Spanish and are willing to work with disadvantaged Hispanic communities, schools in places like California, Texas, Miami, and NYC will see you as an asset.

 

[gjitec]

2. Most people get in by having stats similar to the averages of their race. That's how the game is played unless you have some other interesting thing about your app (commitment to rural care, military service, interesting life story, tons of research experience, etc)

Does this logic apply to both public and private schools?

 

[touchpause13]

Does this logic apply to both public and private schools?

yes, obviously

 

[Hospitalized]

Skip really knows how to get SDN's wheels turning.

 

[Ronaldihno517]

STAHPPP

Before you police other people's words, you should know that the word "mulato" has a completely different context in Brasil than "mulatto" does in America and is generally not seen as offensive. The more you know

 

[touchpause13]

Before you police other people's words, you should know that the word "mulato" has a completely different context in Brasil than "mulatto" does in America and is generally not seen as offensive. The more you know

I did not know that, thank you for that tidbit.

I also should point out that this is for the most part a forum for American students, so it's unusual to see these cultural differences here, and the expectation tends to be that everyone is American.

 

[EasternMer]

I did not know that, thank you for that tidbit.

I also should point out that this is for the most part a forum for American students, so it's unusual to see these cultural differences here, and the expectation tends to be that everyone is American.

Pretty sure most Americans think Mulatto s offensive, kind of like calling someone a mutt. I think it's still pretty offensive. Biracial is more appropriate.

 

[SkipJunior]

Skip really knows how to get SDN's wheels turning.

I make people think and work through difficult issues. I always mean well though. I really didn't mean for this to turn into a anti-URM debate, which is why I discouraged it right from the beginning of the thread.

 

[Ronaldihno517]

I did not know that, thank you for that tidbit.

I also should point out that this is for the most part a forum for American students, so it's unusual to see these cultural differences here, and the expectation tends to be that everyone is American.

Sorry to distract from the thread, I just read the LA1004's post and noticed that he seemed to be describing his brazilian heritage. Just thought to add some context is all.

 

[touchpause13]

Pretty sure most Americans think Mulatto s offensive, kind of like calling someone a mutt. I think it's still pretty offensive. Biracial is more appropriate.

Well the etiology is why it's so offensive (mule)
Agreed, biracial would be much better.

 

[gjitec]

I did not know that, thank you for that tidbit.

I also should point out that this is for the most part a forum for American students, so it's unusual to see these cultural differences here, and the expectation tends to be that everyone is American.

Nobody cares about you being right or wrong. Please, do not go off topic in self verifications.

Well the etiology is why it's so offensive (mule)
Agreed, biracial would be much better.

You are welcome here:
http://linguistforum.com

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Do you guys think it is fair that public schools have URM policies? What gives them the right to be preference, especially since it is tax based?

 

[gjitec]

.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Nobody cares about you being right or wrong. Please, do not go off topic in self verifications.

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Do you guys think it is fair that public schools have URM policies? What gives them the right to be preference, especially since it is tax based?

I think it's better if you do a search for that specific question.

 

[gjitec]

I think it's better if you do a search for that specific question.

Will do. Thanks for letting me know this discussion is out there.

 

[Ronaldihno517]

I once had a high school classmate named Jenny Gomez. The only thing Hispanic about her was her last name.

Was she URM?

You tell me.

There's a difference between ethnicity, minority status, URM status, census status, and community.

There is more to being URM than being able to speak a language. I'm sure African immigrant families are overrepresented in medicine but medical schools might accept them thinking they'll cater to African American communities, despite the cultures being very dissimilar. One culture has to deal with the legacy of Jim Crow and slavery, while the other does not (at least not nearly to the same extent). Point being maybe Jenny Gomez didn't speak Spanish, but culturally identified with her heritage in other ways. Then again maybe she did not, but that doesn't make her not Hispanic. She is what she is. It reminds me how African Americans are accused of "acting white" when they don't act as stereotypes dictate.

EDIT: Grammar

 

[gjitec]

It reminds me how African Americans are accused of "acting white" when they don't act as stereotypes dictate.

Haven't heard of this before. It just led me on an entertaining Internet search.

 

[medic86]

Haven't heard of this before. It just led me on an entertaining Internet search.

You've never heard of this?

Do you live under a rock, by chance?

 

[touchpause13]

You've never heard of this?

Do you live under a rock, by chance?

My guess is he hasn't had a lot of contact with people other than his own race. Could be wrong though, that's just my assumption.

 

[touchpause13]

Nobody cares about you being right or wrong. Please, do not go off topic in self verifications.



You are welcome here:
http://linguistforum.com

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Do you guys think it is fair that public schools have URM policies? What gives them the right to be preference, especially since it is tax based?

I don't think you speak for the group, but whatever - I know I'm an English nerd and I find some things interesting that others may not. I also figured that the etiology behind the word might not be common knowledge and I thought others might be interested, perhaps you aren't and that's fine. Although, I find it hypocritical that you say I'm going off topic, then proceed to go off topic yourself.

 

[medic86]

I don't think you speak for the group, but whatever - I know I'm an English nerd and I find some things interesting that others may not. I also figured that the etiology behind the word might not be common knowledge and I thought others might be interested, perhaps you aren't and that's fine. Although, I find it hypocritical that you say I'm going off topic, then proceed to go off topic yourself.

OFF TOPIC BRO!

I have no idea what this thread is about.

I'm also surprised that it hasn't devolved into a MD vs DO, should I retake my 41 MCAT?, why isn't my 4.0 from Chumpawumpa State University as good as a 4.0 from Uchicago? thread.

 

[touchpause13]

OFF TOPIC BRO!

I have no idea what this thread is about.

I'm also surprised that it hasn't devolved into a MD vs DO, should I retake my 41 MCAT?, why isn't my 4.0 from Chumpawumpa State University as good as a 4.0 from Uchicago? thread.

Also Caribbean students are taking our match spots and how bad does my felony conviction look to adcoms?

 

[SkipJunior]

OFF TOPIC BRO!

I have no idea what this thread is about.

I'm also surprised that it hasn't devolved into a MD vs DO, should I retake my 41 MCAT?, why isn't my 4.0 from Chumpawumpa State University as good as a 4.0 from Uchicago? thread.

Stop derailing my thread. If you have nothing productive to post, then perhaps don't post at all?

 

[Feelgood Inc]

there are three things guaranteed in life as evident in this topic

Death
Taxes
SDN drama

 

[medic86]

Stop derailing my thread. If you have nothing productive to post, then perhaps don't post at all?

 

[SkipJunior]

Please let us stay on topic. Thank you.

 

[Bookworm36]

This is why I don't ever disclose my race, since it is optional. If I'm forced to put my race down I do 'other'.

 

[gjitec]

This is why I don't ever disclose my race, since it is optional. If I'm forced to put my race down I do 'other'.

So do I. I saw that the AMCAS pdf report prints which "other" race you are. I'm gambling on someone on the adcom being my race, and giving me partiality.

Lol, the games we play...

 

[owlegrad]

Users are reminded to stay civil and follow the TOS when posting on SDN. Thanks.

 

[gjitec]

Users are reminded to stay civil and follow the TOS when posting on SDN. Thanks.

...and everyone gets scared and stops posting

 

[Ronaldihno517]

...and everyone gets scared and stops posting

I think the question in the topic has been resolved.

My interpretation is that, if you look and can act the part, you can indeed get away with lying. Adcoms aren't stupid but everyone makes mistakes and you can't really prove that the person is lying short of a DNA test. The con is that you have to live with the fear that you'll be found out for the rest of your career, albeit I don't know why anyone would look into this after acceptance into medical school unless you run for political office but the possibility is there.

 

[LA1004]

Pretty sure most Americans think Mulatto s offensive, kind of like calling someone a mutt. I think it's still pretty offensive. Biracial is more appropriate.

@touchpause13
Keep in mind that what someone in the US finds offensive, other cultures might find quite normal, and vice versa. In the absence of an absolute God making public policies and telling the entire planet what is acceptable of not, why should one particular culture hold their views on anything as absolute and binding to all other cultures and countries? For instance, the word "crap" is quite common in regular conversations in the US, but the translation to Portuguese ("merda") is as offensive as the S*** word is in English. Thus, am I justified in being offended when I hear an American say "crap" or is it best for me to learn the culture and accept that, here, "crap" is acceptable?

Race in Brazil is seen as a very different thing than race in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_Brazil). See the "controversy" tab as a particularly good section of the article. I harbor no negativity when using any of these terms (mestiço, mulato, pardo, marrom, misturado, etc) to reflect the mixed nature of my blood, and I think that is what really matters. Just as blacks can use their own terms in the US to refer to themselves, I can use whatever term I like to refer to my blood and heritage. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5225097

The main point I was making, however, is that race is not so cut and dry as people make it sound. If someone does not identify with any box, what do we call those people? Factionless (for Divergent fans out there)? If someone identifies as a race/multiple races even though they have no blood ties to the culture in question, who am I to judge?

 

[CircadianRhythm]

I'm sure you didn't have ill intentions but the word is considered a racial slur to Americans. If you don't want to offend people of color in America I would refrain from using it. Context matters.

 

[LA1004]

I'm sure you didn't have ill intentions but the word is considered a racial slur to Americans. If you don't want to offend people of color in America I would refrain from using it. Context matters.

Two way street. I've learned one more taboo word in the US, you've learned more about Brazilian culture. Giving others the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions will help both sides come to a common ground.

 

[Bookworm36]

So do I. I saw that the AMCAS pdf report prints which "other" race you are. I'm gambling on someone on the adcom being my race, and giving me partiality.

Lol, the games we play...

I'm still 'other' or two or more races. Noone needs to know. I get marginalized just like everyone else, and believe me everyone else gets marginalized or discriminated against at some point in their lives.

 

[NonTradJp]

The discussion is lively. I do not even put down a race. Is omittance a lie when it is not required?

 

[RedSox143]

Why do they even care about race, maybe I was brought up differently or have regional bias but i literally see everyone as people, no matter what race or anything it's 2015 I don't understand why it even matters what race you are

 

[C@lidoc]

The discussion is lively. I do not even put down a race. Is omittance a lie when it is not required?

No it's not. Completely optional.

 

[SkipJunior]

The discussion is lively. I do not even put down a race. Is omittance a lie when it is not required?

No it's not. You're good buddy.

 

[Bookworm36]

Why do they even care about race, maybe I was brought up differently or have regional bias but i literally see everyone as people, no matter what race or anything it's 2015 I don't understand why it even matters what race you are

I'm scared to not edit my comment. I'm so scared to offend people.

 

[ridethecliche]

You could be right...of course there are no statistics to support either claim. I think that there is probably some truth in regards to both statements.

Translation:

"Here are some facts I just made up and wanted to share."

 

[j4pac]

Translation:

"Here are some facts I just made up and wanted to share."

If you have come for facts...you might want to try another site. I would start with one without "forum" in the address bar.

 

[Bookworm36]

I had to edit my post because I'm super self-conscious right now, still pre-med. But information like this, I can't find the actual article but its probably out there somewhere...this gives IQ per country, then compare the majority of race of that country to the iQ scores and you see that others before me conclude a less-intelligent group of people. http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-with-the-highest-lowest-average-iq/
I'm not saying A=B and B=C so A=C, I'm saying scientists deduce this, albeit in my opinion a fallacy. There is more info out there too, like http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/08/geneticists-decry-book-race-and-evolution and there is another book called Race by some prof emeritus at UCB? maybe that delineates with data and stats a possible subspecies. Also, admixing with Neanderthals....while no science is actually 'fact' (an argument for a different discussion) there are sadly scientists who have 'proof' that there are biological differences. So letting a black person into college with a 27mcat and 3.5 gpa would technically be equivalent to letting a white male into college with a 31mcat and 3.75 gpa. As a consumer, you have a choice. Alot of black community members would probably choose a black doctor over a white doctor. That is a pretty good reason to let African Americans into college with less stellar stats. At least those in the black community are even going to get access to medical care. Just work your best, and it will all play out as it should.

 

[Bottle]

Here is a question that has always bugged me and I might post a separate thread for this question. How come Arabs are classified white in U.S census because they are "genetically caucasian" but hispanics have their own category? if anything, hispanics are more similar to your typical western Europe white than arabs.

 

[Tintinnabula]

I... barely know where to start with his but with no.

First, IQ is a known terrible test to use for anyone not basically from the background of the people devising the test. For the same reason it's also got some classist issues, since class informs a person's culture as well.

Second, what you're talking about when you bring mating with Neanderthals into the same paragraph with comparing black community members preferring doctors with a similar culture (if I'm generous) - has me wondering if you're trolling. Seriously, never do that again, it's a bad look.

Third, what you're proposing is not actually talking about having a level playing field. It's saying that "black American communities won't desire a white doctor as much as a black doctor but black Americans are known to present with lower scores because ~handwaving away cultural and sociopolitical issues~ so we should be using lower standards for black applicants and letting in black Americans to become doctors." I don't really think I need to further address that problems that are proposed behind that because I'm not teaching Race 101, but I will say that the following statement is, "well, yeah, black communities get doctors with lower scores and all which can potentially mean that they are less skilled doctors - we can't know if they are or not because *handwaving about cultural and sociopolitical issues~ but at least they get black doctors!" Screw that. Black communities deserve doctors that are as provably excellent as those in any average US facility. The answer to getting a more diverse field of doctors that better represents American culture is not, I promise you, letting in subpar applicants and then sending them out into the world.