Mask question

[GeneralVeers]

I'll admit defeat on the masks. Governments CAN force businesses to require the masks, and it's definitely being enforced where I live.

My biggest concern is how long this will last. I've not seen any criteria from anyone as to when the arbitrary mask rules will be removed. Is it when COVID is gone completely and there are no more cases? Is it when community spread is reduced significantly?

No one knows. If governments had put mask laws into effect with specific criteria beforehand as to when they'd be removed, they would have had more buy-in from people like myself.

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[WilcoWorld]

As an over/under I'll say masks go out of style once a vaccine is widely available. It could be sooner, but I wouldn't expect it to come later.

 

[GeneralVeers]

As an over/under I'll say masks go out of style once a vaccine is widely available. It could be sooner, but I wouldn't expect it to come later.

Got it. So years/never.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Got it. So years/never.

Don't you live in Vegas? I said the over/under is vaccine availability. That means a 50% chance that it happens before.

 

[AMEHigh]

Lol that people wouldn’t be yelling about a violation of freedom if the government said we recommend you wear masks indoors until a vaccine is available.

I think masks will be necessary until either a vaccine or we have 100% solid data that they are not helpful in preventing spread and other countries stop wearing them. However, people in other countries wear masks so maybe during times of illness so maybe it’ll be something that sticks around, but I doubt it cause Freedom!

 

[GeneralVeers]

Lol that people wouldn’t be yelling about a violation of freedom if the government said we recommend you wear masks indoors until a vaccine is available.

I think masks will be necessary until either a vaccine or we have 100% solid data that they are not helpful in preventing spread and other countries stop wearing them. However, people in other countries wear masks so maybe during times of illness so maybe it’ll be something that sticks around, but I doubt it cause Freedom!

I don't have an issue with ill people wearing masks. My issue is that if the virus is circulating at very low levels in the population at some point in the future why do we still need to wait for a vaccine (which might never come)? People have literally been killed fighting over mask wearing in businesses recently.

Even if we get a vaccine by January (optimistic) how long would it take to roll out 300 million doses, start a vaccination program and get the majority of the population vaccinated? What if 10% of the population becomes anti-vaxxers and refuse to take the vaccine? Are we stuck with masks forever?

 

[AMEHigh]

I don't have an issue with ill people wearing masks. My issue is that if the virus is circulating at very low levels in the population at some point in the future why do we still need to wait for a vaccine (which might never come)? People have literally been killed fighting over mask wearing in businesses recently.

Even if we get a vaccine by January (optimistic) how long would it take to roll out 300 million doses, start a vaccination program and get the majority of the population vaccinated? What if 10% of the population becomes anti-vaxxers and refuse to take the vaccine? Are we stuck with masks forever?

Evidence seems to be pointing to the fact that ill people don't know they're ill yet and are spreading the virus, hence why everyone should wear a mask regardless of how they feel.

And thanks to herd immunity not everyone has to get vaccinated for it to help protect the population. So no, in all likelihood between natural immunity and a vaccine we're not "stuck" with masks forever. And if I have to wear a mask indoors for the rest of my life because it's been shown as a good prevention method it's not really something that seems worth my energy to worry about. Maybe in 5 years there will be another novel virus? I certainly thing there are bigger problems to be upset over. For the small percent of people that have medical conditions in which they can't wear mask then wear a face shield. It really is not the end of the world to wear a mask. There are plenty of rules in place when one lives in society that we have to follow, I'm not going to get bent out of shape over another one that is meant to help protect other people.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Evidence seems to be pointing to the fact that ill people don't know they're ill yet and are spreading the virus, hence why everyone should wear a mask regardless of how they feel.

And thanks to herd immunity not everyone has to get vaccinated for it to help protect the population. So no, in all likelihood between natural immunity and a vaccine we're not "stuck" with masks forever. And if I have to wear a mask indoors for the rest of my life because it's been shown as a good prevention method it's not really something that seems worth my energy to worry about. Maybe in 5 years there will be another novel virus? I certainly thing there are bigger problems to be upset over. For the small percent of people that have medical conditions in which they can't wear mask then wear a face shield. It really is not the end of the world to wear a mask. There are plenty of rules in place when one lives in society that we have to follow, I'm not going to get bent out of shape over another one that is meant to help protect other people.

I understand your point, and it's a nuisance and not much else.

That being said, for the rest of our lives we have to wear a face covering whenever we go inside any public building, or business?

Also along that line we will never get back to having:
- Theatrical shows
- Live sporting events
- Nightclubs
- Dinner parties of more than 6
- Weddings
- Funerals
- Graduation ceremonies (not the somber 6-foot spread, or virtual depressing affairs).

These are all genuine quality of life things that I am concerned will never come back, at least in any way that's fun or recognizable.

 

[Spikebd]

I understand your point, and it's a nuisance and not much else.

That being said, for the rest of our lives we have to wear a face covering whenever we go inside any public building, or business?

Also along that line we will never get back to having:
- Theatrical shows
- Live sporting events
- Nightclubs
- Dinner parties of more than 6
- Weddings
- Funerals
- Graduation ceremonies (not the somber 6-foot spread, or virtual depressing affairs).

These are all genuine quality of life things that I am concerned will never come back, at least in any way that's fun or recognizable.

Yup. All that extra money isn’t really worth much when you can’t spend it doing anything interesting.
The world is changing, and austerity is the new path we are on, and is being forced along by covid warriors who I believe don’t recognize the big picture of where this is headed. I’m glad you notice this too, Veers.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Yup. All that extra money isn’t really worth much when you can’t spend it doing anything interesting.
The world is changing, and austerity is the new path we are on, and is being forced along by covid warriors who I believe don’t recognize the big picture of where this is headed. I’m glad you notice this too, Veers.

I love international travel, and would usually do it once per quarter. Part of the fun is fancy airplanes, fancy airport lounges, and nice hotels, while seeing museums and other crowded sites. Even if international travel opened up again, I can't see it being fun enough to be worthwhile. Wearing a mask for 15 hours on a flight with vastly reduced food/beverage offerings doesn't sound enjoyable. Many museums will be shut indefinitely, and hotels have closed their concierge lounges and fancy bars.

There really is very little fun in life anymore. Everything feels illicit now, from going out for drinks, to eating, to just going to the supermarket. There's no end in sight, and life doesn't really seem worth living if we can't do the things that we enjoy.

 

[old_boy]

Veers: “life doesn't really seem worth living if we can't do the things that we enjoy”

Woah, slow down. You need to get some new hobbies and/or interests. If anything this pandemic has make me feel the opposite. Played blocks this evening with my kid and it was a beautiful thing.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Veers: “life doesn't really seem worth living if we can't do the things that we enjoy”

Woah, slow down. You need to get some new hobbies and/or interests. If anything this pandemic has make me feel the opposite. Played blocks this evening with my kid and it was a beautiful thing.

No kids, and my only hobbies are going to the gym and traveling. If the gyms get shut down again.......

I'm just not prepared for years and years of this to come.....for a virus with a 99.8% survival rate. Even worse is that there's nowhere to escape to. Every country will have the same messed up rules indefinitely.

 

[AMEHigh]

I understand your point, and it's a nuisance and not much else.

That being said, for the rest of our lives we have to wear a face covering whenever we go inside any public building, or business?

Also along that line we will never get back to having:
- Theatrical shows
- Live sporting events
- Nightclubs
- Dinner parties of more than 6
- Weddings
- Funerals
- Graduation ceremonies (not the somber 6-foot spread, or virtual depressing affairs).

These are all genuine quality of life things that I am concerned will never come back, at least in any way that's fun or recognizable.

Huh?
I never said anything about sports, events, never coming back.
This is a novel virus, it takes time to get to herd immunity and for us to figure out treatment and/or vaccine.
Yes another new virus causing a pandemic could hit us every 5 years, but I don’t think anyone is thinking like that right now. That will certainly suck if we’re in a pandemic for the rest of our lives.

Other countries have managed to get things better under control and have started to return to some normalcy but that obviously takes some compromise such as doing things like wearing masks.
No things aren’t going to go back to "normal" tomorrow, but no one is saying you can’t leave your house for the next 10 years either.

Obviously I have no idea how long mask wearing will be recommended, but like I said other countries wear masks more regularly when illness is going around and it really isn’t the end of the world. We adapted to wearing clothes, shoes, seatbelts, etc. It will be ok if masks are around for awhile.

 

[old_boy]

Tough time if you like traveling to other countries, wonder when borders will open up to American leisure travelers. Not for a while I bet.

 

[AMEHigh]

And if you like to travel like I do then it’d serve your best interest to follow protocols like mask wearing and vote for leaders that are doing things to help lessen the spread. Countries aren’t going to open up their borders to us while we’re still a hot mess and the laughing stock of the world.

 

[miacomet]

@GeneralVeers

How do people know they are contagious with asymptomatic spread appearing to be increasingly important? And why are you worrying about what to do in the future, when the virus is circulating at low levels in the population, when in most places it's rising and increasingly prevalent?

Why can't you wear a mask at a funeral? There are plenty of masked funerals happening. Is this some specific religious edict?
And why can't you wear a mask at a wedding?
Can you provide a reference for the 99.8% survival rate? I haven't seen any definitive number.

As to nightclubs, well, some people pay extra for the ones where you have to wear a mask

I agree life is less fun. I'm worried I'll never see my elderly parents again. But I also want them to be safe. They have an amazing attitude- my father keeps writing funny stories about life in his neighborhood during the plague of 2020, and the top twenty ways to enjoy being mostly locked down. It's inspiring, and much of why I value the older generation so much and why losing so many vibrant elders is so tragic.

 

[Rendar5]

I figure maybe a year at most. eventually enough people will get sick for natural herd type immunity or a vaccine will come. International travel will reopen.

That said influenza has a survival rate of 99.8%. This is closer to 98%. The main issue for me with this disease is more morbidity rate than the mortality rate though. One of our docs is permanently disabled after being hospitalized for 2-3 months but is at least alive.

 

[miacomet]

I figure maybe a year at most. eventually enough people will get sick for natural herd type immunity or a vaccine will come. International travel will reopen.

That said influenza has a survival rate of 99.8%. This is closer to 98%. The main issue for me with this disease is more morbidity rate than the mortality rate though. One of our docs is permanently disabled after being hospitalized for 2-3 months but is at least alive.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Might I ask the nature of their long-term sequelae?

 

[e30ftw]

We just went on a mask mandate, out of political optics necessity, and before the mandate was even in effect the county sheriff had a press conference stating that he wouldn't enforce it. The mandate expires in about 2 months.

I follow protocols at work and will keep a mask handy for restaurants and places who take it seriously, but am basically over it. Have been living normally for about two months now. My state in general has never taken it very seriously and we still have a super low death rate per capita. It seems every couple weeks a news article comes out saying that our little city will be the next "COVID hot spot" and some people freak out, then nothing happens and life resumes as normal. At this point I just hope as many people get infected as quickly as possible so we can put this behind us. I look forward to dealing with the COVIDs so bring it on. The sickest patients I see are still gram-neg sepsis, unstable CHF, fulminate DKA, etc just like it's always been. COVID is not medically interesting.

I'm an outdoors person and have enough mountains, rivers and valleys within an hours drive to keep me occupied for a lifetime so it's like whatever. Would really love to travel to Europe this fall but probably not going to happen and I'm fine with that since I'll just invest the $$$ and enjoy the free recreation that surrounds me.

A lot of people get anxious about this kind of thing though and it has a significantly negative impact on their lives. Much of this is by design but few will ever appreciate the impact the panic porn has caused on the psyche of vulnerable people, which is kind of sad.

The ED has been blowing up lately though, happy to get volume back, bit of COVID sprinkled around but at this point it's just another patient/dispo.

 

[Lawpy]

This may sound dumb but it's important.

HIV was a pandemic with widespread effects. Yet there is no vaccine or cure.

Why is there an expectation that there will be a covid 19 vaccine?

 

[thegenius]

This may sound dumb but it's important.

HIV was a pandemic with widespread effects. Yet there is no vaccine or cure.

Why is there an expectation that there will be a covid 19 vaccine?

we tried with HIV. I read that we made a vaccine and we actually produced antibodies against the virus. But our bodies were still unable to clear it. we still don’t have a cure for it 35-40 years later.

With coronaviruses, it appears we can clear the infection naturally. Most people have mild to no symptoms. Some part of our immune system does that, either humoral or cellular. So maybe we can just inject dead virus parts into humans and see if our immune system adapts?

no guarantee but i think we will rush some sloppy, tepid vaccine to market in the next 6 months that is about as good as using hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19, Which is to say it will be lousy. Trump really wants that out prior to the election. That is the only way he will be able to keep the presidency. Get a vaccine out in mid September, market goes nuts in October, everybody’s portfolio goes up 20%, and trump get re-elected.

 

[GeneralVeers]

This may sound dumb but it's important.

HIV was a pandemic with widespread effects. Yet there is no vaccine or cure.

Why is there an expectation that there will be a covid 19 vaccine?

Also initially there was widespread denial, and most people in power didn't care about funding research for treatment because "Who cares? It's killing a bunch of gays anyway".

In 20 years it killed 450,000 Americans, most of whom were young, productive members of society. I find that way more concerning than any missteps we've taken with COVID which predominantly targets people at the end of their life anyway who aren't productive.

 

[deleted480308]

No kids, and my only hobbies are going to the gym and traveling. If the gyms get shut down again.......

I'm just not prepared for years and years of this to come.....for a virus with a 99.8% survival rate. Even worse is that there's nowhere to escape to. Every country will have the same messed up rules indefinitely.

It’s part of the problem with accepting the govt gets to do this

 

[miacomet]

Also initially there was widespread denial, and most people in power didn't care about funding research for treatment because "Who cares? It's killing a bunch of gays anyway".

In 20 years it killed 450,000 Americans, most of whom were young, productive members of society. I find that way more concerning than any missteps we've taken with COVID which predominantly targets people at the end of their life anyway who aren't productive.

So humans are only valuable for their productivity? Do you really believe that? How about vibrant grandparents who would have had another decade? Or my beloved parents, still writing poetry? Why so discriminatory and cruel? I should add much of society considered gay folks highly expendable and deviant forty years ago.

These aren't all demented patients in nursing homes; many of them are bright, vibrant members of their community, much loved....

 

[GeneralVeers]

So humans are only valuable for their productivity? Do you really believe that? How about vibrant grandparents who would have had another decade? Or my beloved parents, still writing poetry? Why so discriminatory and cruel? I should add much of society considered gay folks highly expendable and deviant forty years ago.

These aren't all demented patients in nursing homes; many of them are bright, vibrant members of their community, much loved....

With limited resources you have to draw the line somewhere. With the socialized medicine you all seem to want, this will only be magnified.

It's an ethical question. Is it worth shutting down 99.4% of society to protect the 0.6% who live in nursing homes (who accounted for 50% of the death)?

 

[WilcoWorld]

With limited resources you have to draw the line somewhere. With the socialized medicine you all seem to want, this will only be magnified.

It's an ethical question. Is it worth shutting down 99.4% of society to protect the 0.6% who live in nursing homes (who accounted for 50% of the death)?

I agree that we have to face hard questions such as this. The concern I share with @miacomet is that determining certain lives are more valuable than others leads us down a very dark path.

The work your suggesting must be done, but it must be informed by things like likelihood of survival, life-years lost, and other disease-oriented concerns. I worry that factoring in "productivity" will lead to significant disparities (many of which may be unintentional but nevertheless real) the after effects of which could be even worse for society than this virus.

 

[TwoHighways]

With limited resources you have to draw the line somewhere. With the socialized medicine you all seem to want, this will only be magnified.

It's an ethical question. Is it worth shutting down 99.4% of society to protect the 0.6% who live in nursing homes (who accounted for 50% of the death)?

It’s the tough discussion no one is having.

As far as the mask thing goes, it’s a way for people to virtue signal and prolong the inevitable. Young, healthy people ought to be mixing it up without masks.

 

[TwoHighways]

I agree that we have to face hard questions such as this. The concern I share with @miacomet is that determining certain lives are more valuable than others leads us down a very dark path.

The work your suggesting must be done, but it must be informed by things like likelihood of survival, life-years lost, and other disease-oriented concerns. I worry that factoring in "productivity" will lead to significant disparities (many of which may be unintentional but nevertheless real) the after effects of which could be even worse for society than this virus.

Simple solution to this. We stop operating under the assumption that healthcare is a right. Death for all of us is inevitable. It’s time we get more comfortable facing that truth.

 

[Birdstrike]

I'll admit defeat on the masks. Governments CAN force businesses to require the masks, and it's definitely being enforced where I live.

My biggest concern is how long this will last.

My best guess is within 6-12 months, >50% of the population will have immunity either from infection or a vaccine. At that point, case and death counts will be trending lower and a critical mass of people will have developed psychological adaptations to the presence of the virus. Until then, choose one of three lanes:

1. Left lane: "Security over freedom," panic, fear-driven, isolation, no return to normal life (0% of normal activities),
2. Right lane: "Freedom over security," risk acceptance, normal life, no lifestyle change (100% of normal activities) or,
3. Middle lane: Return to most important and valued activities with reasonable precautions like washing hands, masks when indicated, abstaining from low value, high-risk activities (between 5-95% of normal activities).

Over the the next 6-12 months I suspect you'll find me lanes #2 or #3, most of the time. I'm currently in lane #3 (95% normal activities + precautions) due to my town being a sunbelt state hot-spot at the moment. But I reserve the right to change lanes at any time, depending on the circumstances around me.

 

[miacomet]

My best guess is within 6-12 months, >50% of the population will have immunity either from infection or a vaccine. At that point, case and death counts will be trending lower and a critical mass of people will have developed psychological adaptations to the presence of the virus. Until then, choose one of three lanes:

1. Left lane: "Security over freedom," panic, fear-driven, isolation, no return to normal life,
2. Right lane: "Freedom over security," risk acceptance, normal life, no lifestyle change.
3. Middle lane: Return to most important and valued activities with reasonable precautions like washing hands, masks when indicated, abstaining from low value, high-risk activities.

Over the the next 6-12 months I suspect you'll find me lanes #2 or #3, most of the time. Currently in lane #3, due to my town being a sunbelt state hot-spot at the moment. But I reserve the right to change lanes at any time, depending on the circumstances around me.

I'm not sure about the lanes here. For example, it seems silly to return to lane 2 entirely; is it really that hard to wash our hands and(shouldn't we be doing that anyway?) or engage in other reasonable precautions like masks? Shouldn't we all consider doing those things on an ongoing basis just to be good citizens?

 

[Birdstrike]

I'm not sure about the lanes here. For example, it seems silly to return to lane 2 entirely; is it really that hard to wash our hands and(shouldn't we be doing that anyway?) or engage in other reasonable precautions like masks? Shouldn't we all consider doing those things on an ongoing basis just to be good citizens?

Like I said, I'm in lane #3 (95% normal) right now. I agree, masks and hand washing are all reasonable and recommended.

Lane #2 becomes reasonable for me, if:

1) Case counts drop to an acceptably low level where I live, and/or travel to,
2) Everyone in my family has had COVID at some point, and recovered without incident, or
3) When my whole family has been vaccinated with a high effective vaccine.

 

[miacomet]

With limited resources you have to draw the line somewhere. With the socialized medicine you all seem to want, this will only be magnified.

It's an ethical question. Is it worth shutting down 99.4% of society to protect the 0.6% who live in nursing homes (who accounted for 50% of the death)?

Several issues with the above.

1. Shutting down wasn't just to help people in nursing homes; it saved vulnerable people of all age groups and living situations. Not shutting down would have overwhelmed the health system further, putting more lives at risk, particularly healthcare workers. It is a false to state that we locked down to protect only nursing homes; we actually failed at that, but the lockdown did protect others. The fact that we failed to protect vulnerable elders in nursing homes doesn't mean locking down helped them, it means that our measures failed to protect them, while (per several epidemiologic studies) successfully preventing many deaths.
2. Our failure to capitalize on the success of even our partial lockdown (no contract tracing, insufficient testing and personal hygiene measures) are really the ongoing issue; we could have helped many more folks had our society been more enthusiastic about masking and contact tracing. We also failed to use that time to ramp up testing capabilities to a sufficient level. There is no reason we can't have sufficient tests. We just did't use our time correctly.
3. Having failed at number 2, we are now stuck with overwhelmed hospital systems in certain areas and a public that is understandably reticent to return to pre-pandemic activities, difficulties with opening schools, reticence and fear of staff to return to schools, and random openings and closings that further disrupt the economy.

 

[miacomet]

Like I said, I'm in lane #3 (95% normal) right now. I agree, masks and hand washing are all reasonable and recommended.

Lane #2 becomes reasonable for me, if:

1) Case counts drop to an acceptably low level where I live, and/or travel to,
2) Everyone in my family has had COVID at some point, and recovered without incident, or
3) When my whole family has been vaccinated with a high effective vaccine.

It's still gross that you would stop hand washing then @Birdstrike
Also, most coronaviridae only confer 6-12 months of immunity

 

[Birdstrike]

It's still gross that you would stop hand washing then @Birdstrike

Lol. I wouldn't "stop hand washing." I would stop "COVID level hand washing so frequent my hands feel like I stuck them in lava" hand washing. I wouldn't stop it entirely, .

Also, most coronaviridae only confer 6-12 months of immunity

Only 6-12 months of immunity? I wouldn't turn it down.

Either way, COVID sucks. It sucks for me, it sucks for everyone. I can't make it better. I am trying to view it a certain way that makes me feel better about it. That viewpoint has the opposite effect on some others and seems to trigger them and make them more stressed out. It's not intentional. Maybe put me on ignore (?) . I don't know. I've had it with this frickin' virus, and the whole pointless discussions around it.

Mask this, masks that. The death count is this, the death count is that. Who even gives a **** at this point? We're dodging bullets. And it's gonna suck for a while. I don't know what else to say at this point.

 

[thegenius]

With limited resources you have to draw the line somewhere. With the socialized medicine you all seem to want, this will only be magnified.

It's an ethical question. Is it worth shutting down 99.4% of society to protect the 0.6% who live in nursing homes (who accounted for 50% of the death)?

Who is shutting down 99.4% of society? Are 99.4% of society stuck in their homes?

I don’t think you mean this.

 

[miacomet]

Who is shutting down 99.4% of society? Are 99.4% of society stuck in their homes?

I don’t think you mean this.

Yeah, the non reality-based hyperbole is getting to be a bit much

 

[namethatsmell]

It’s part of the problem with accepting the govt gets to do this

Gets to do what?

 

[RoyBasch]

What if 10% of the population becomes anti-vaxxers and refuse to take the vaccine? Are we stuck with masks forever?

That anti-vaxxers will still be protected by the herd immunity of the 90% that are vaccinated just like they always have for other infectious diseases. Since the Ro is 2.something, at 90% vaccinated they will be relatively safe. Of course they will feel extremely justified that their decision to not get vaccinated is correct because lo' and behold they are not vaccinated and aren't getting sick!

 

[deleted480308]

Gets to do what?

Gets to shut down industries and enforce distancing/masks etc

 

[namethatsmell]

Gets to shut down industries and enforce distancing/masks etc

I don't think the way the government is doing things makes sense, but isn't a role of our government to try to protect its citizens?

 

[Birdstrike]

That anti-vaxxers will still be protected by the herd immunity of the 90% that are vaccinated just like they always have for other infectious diseases. Since the Ro is 2.something, at 90% vaccinated they will be relatively safe. Of course they will feel extremely justified that their decision to not get vaccinated is correct because lo' and behold they are not vaccinated and aren't getting sick!

I’ve also noticed a disturbing trend of people who are generally pro-vaccine, saying they’re going to refuse this one. The line of thinking goes something like, “No way. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

“You do realize the vaccine will be tested on thousands of volunteers over many months and have to be certified safe by the FDA prior to you and I getting it. There are thousand of people that volunteer to be the ‘guinea pigs’ so you and I don’t have to. You know that right?”

“Uh...I don’t care. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

Almost all of them are the most irrationally coronaphobic, most fearful of dying and pro-lockdown.

 

[RoyBasch]

This may sound dumb but it's important.

HIV was a pandemic with widespread effects. Yet there is no vaccine or cure.

Why is there an expectation that there will be a covid 19 vaccine?

I think there are some important fundamental differences between COVID 19 and HIV. The majority of COVID 19 patients will ultimately clear the virus by an immune response whereas the majority of HIV patients do not and develop chronic infection. This implies an inherent susceptibility of COVID 19 to immune-mediated response which can be manipulated via vaccine mechanisms. There is no reason to believe at this time that COVID 19 will be a particularly difficult infection to develop a vaccine against. In comparison, HIV remains extremely elusive from an immunological point of view.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I’ve also noticed a disturbing trend of people who are generally pro-vaccine, saying they’re going to refuse this one. The line of thinking goes something like, “No way. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

“You do realize the vaccine will be tested on thousands of volunteers over many months and have to be certified safe by the FDA prior to you and I getting it. There are thousand of people that volunteer to be the ‘guinea pigs’ so you and I don’t have to. You know that right?”

“Uh...I don’t care. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

Almost all of them are the most irrationally coronaphobic, most fearful of dying and pro-lockdown.

The what I think is a not unreasonable concern is that because we're in an epidemic, some of the safety rules might get bent.

 

[Birdstrike]

I think there are some important fundamental differences between COVID 19 and HIV. The majority of COVID 19 patients will ultimately clear the virus by an immune response whereas the majority of HIV patients do not and develop chronic infection. This implies an inherent susceptibility of COVID 19 to immune-mediated response which can be manipulated via vaccine mechanisms. There is no reason to believe at this time that COVID 19 will be a particularly difficult infection to develop a vaccine against. In comparison, HIV remains extremely elusive from an immunological point of view.

I’ve read that attempts at vaccines for other Coronavirus’s (SARS-COV-1) caused worsening infection and were abandoned. However, I’m optimistic we’ll be able to make a vaccine, despite the challenges.

 

[miacomet]

Gets to shut down industries and enforce distancing/masks etc

Why are these worse than other things the government regulates? Do you think the government should stop regulating the following @sb247?

-Licensing for medical practitioners
-Health and sanitation standards for restaurants
-Licensing and safety standards for day cares
-Traffic safety
-Motor vehicle safety standards
-Nudity laws

The government shutdown was awful for many businesses, no doubt, but it seems like one of the biggest issues was an inadequate bailout (contrast with the UK, that actually paid employees salaries etc).

As to the masks, why is this so onerous? Why is it more of an invasion than a seatbelt? What would you propose as an alternative?

 

[Birdstrike]

Do you think the government should stop regulating the following @sb247?

-Nudity laws

What, lol ?

 

[RoyBasch]

I’ve also noticed a disturbing trend of people who are generally pro-vaccine, saying they’re going to refuse this one. The line of thinking goes something like, “No way. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

“You do realize the vaccine will be tested on thousands of volunteers over many months and have to be certified safe by the FDA prior to you and I getting it. There are thousand of people that volunteer to be the ‘guinea pigs’ so you and I don’t have to. You know that right?”

“Uh...I don’t care. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

Yes I have heard this recently as well, mostly from healthcare providers, which is a bit disheartening.

 

[deleted128562]

Yes I have heard this recently as well, mostly from healthcare providers, which is a bit disheartening.

And it’s disheartening to me that so many health care providers who should have certain standards when it comes to science and evidence-based medicine, are essentially saying, “If a vaccine gets rushed to market, way faster than any other vaccine ever, it is sacrilege to question its safety or efficacy”.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Back to the mask thing...

Birdstrike I get your "Lanes" idea, but the problem is that regardless of the ACTUAL RISK, most of our politiicans are clearly in the Lane 1 camp, whereby everyone should live forever, no one should ever die, and no risk is acceptable.

Unfortunately these *****s, terrified of blame are going to be the ones extending policies which make little sense indefinitely. You only have to look at the school opening question to see the idiocy of the elected officials.

 

[thegenius]

I’ve also noticed a disturbing trend of people who are generally pro-vaccine, saying they’re going to refuse this one. The line of thinking goes something like, “No way. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

“You do realize the vaccine will be tested on thousands of volunteers over many months and have to be certified safe by the FDA prior to you and I getting it. There are thousand of people that volunteer to be the ‘guinea pigs’ so you and I don’t have to. You know that right?”

“Uh...I don’t care. I’m not gonna be their guinea pig!”

Almost all of them are the most irrationally coronaphobic, most fearful of dying and pro-lockdown.

I don't want to be a guinea pig.
I'm not pro-lockdown either.
I am aware that there are hundreds, maybe thousands that the vaccine is tested against.

The problem is that we have limited data on the long term effects of the vaccine.

It really depends on how it is made and tested.

If they are using a brand new technique to deliver the vaccine that hasn't been tested before, I would be extremely nervous about taking it. Not about the immediate side effects as we will know it is safe, but the long term ones that nobody will ever know about until 5-10 years later when 0.1% of those who got the vaccine ended up getting a rare form of autoimmune cardiomyopathy, pulm fibrosis, or perineal-anal cancer that causes significant morbidity.

However if they are repurposing existing diluents that have been used for decades in other vaccines that are safe, then I would be more willing to use it.

I think people can have legitimate fears about being one of the first ones to get a vaccine that was rushed (most vaccines take 10-15 years to develop) for a disease that, in my situation, has 0.1% death and probably ~1% permanent morbidity. You don't have to be cookoo en la cabeza or be irrationally coronaphobic.