MD-PhD - Fears of GPA and previous Majors holding me back

[TheBookman]

Hello everyone!

So I have changed majors quite a few times over my long years in college. I have switched from Network Security to Computer Science before finding my passion in Chemistry where I had earned my first degree. I was in the process of earning my PhD in Chemistry when COVID-19 hit and layoffs occurred (funding dried up and I can't work for free). As I was stuck in a location where I could not use my degree and could not afford to move thanks to student loans, I eventually found myself working in a hospital where I learned about Medical Lab Science and am currently in a program to earn my degree. It was thanks to this program and the two years prior that I learned, discussed, and met numerous MDs and MD/PhDs who have shown me a path that I am eager to start on. However, there is one major fear I have and that is my GPA.

My overall GPA is absolutely abysmal. From 18-23 I was in NetSec/CompSci and I was routinely getting Ds and Fs with a handful of Cs. It wasn't until I switched to Chemistry where my grades began to climb. Since returning to school, all my grades have been Solid A's and a few B's due to the nature of working two full time jobs while trying to go to school full time (this is changing this coming semester, where I am going to be PRN).

Over the next 3-5 years once I get A's in the rest of this program's courses, I am going to be taking some extra courses while working to raise up my GPA - however this would only ensure that my Science/Math related courses are closer to a 3.8 to 3.9 GPA. My overall GPA would still be sub 3.0. When I had applied to PhD programs, I was able to discuss this and still get schools to look at my application - though I am unsure how it works in the MD field. I would rather not spend thousands of dollars to retake courses that would have no bearing on my future work (nor do I have much interest in general in learning how to build databases or manage an linux server stack).

I have strong letters of recommendation from professors, colleagues, and working MD/PhDs that I have shadowed, thousands of hours of community service and patient facing work under my belt, and a few written and published research papers including a first name authorship. I will also have 3-5 years of working in a clinical setting (even if it is as an MLS, not an MD/PhD) come the time I apply.

I do not plan on applying for the "top of the line" schools as I am of the belief that any school is a good school if you put forth the time and effort to see growth in your professional field. I just fear that even applying to "lower end" schools, my application will be tossed in the bin upon immediatley seeing the overall GPA and not the 14 years of schooling that saw remarkable improvements and a strong GPA within the sciences.

Am I right to be concerned? Am I over thinking things? Should I just bite the bullet and retake those NetSec courses?

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[gyngyn]

We will see a year by year calculation of BCPM grades and cumulative overall grades from every school you attended.
I recommend that you calculate your AAMC grades as well as AACOMAS to clearly see what your real gpa (and trend) is.
As neither degree replaces repeated classes, there is no advantage to re-taking classes that are not pertinent to the application.
Lab science is not generally included in BCPM.

MD/PhD applications are generally more competitive than regular MD applications and much different than PhD alone.
Master's grades appear on a separate line and are not part of the MD gpa. DO schools average them in, though.

https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/7761/download

Calculating Your AACOMAS GPAs

help.liaisonedu.com

 

[esob]

I'll be honest, even with an upward trend, a sub-3.0 GPA is typically a death knell for MD schools. DO schools are a little more forgiving but they are still highly competitive. Your best shot would be something like academic fresh start, but that requires moving to Texas (it has been done by others.)

Short of that, a strong MCAT and "something interesting" are your best bet. "Something interesting" is military service, olympian, started a company, etc. From your brief intro, finishing your PhD could be that "something interesting" for you. A PhD + markedly upward trend + strong MCAT + tech background has real potential to overcome the GPA deficit. Other options include an SMP.

 

[Dral]

I guess stranger things have happened, but I doubt you'll get into an MD-PhD program with your stats/story. As gyngyn pointed out, these programs are typically very competitive to get into since there are so few spots offered.

In general, the way I understand it, getting your foot in the door for one thing doesn't necessarily make it easy to get your other foot in the door so to speak. So if someone is applying to an MD-JD program, just getting into the JD program doesn't mean getting into the MD program is somewhat easier. I think you have to be competitive for both (as if applying separately). You aren't very competitive for many MD programs right now despite the fact that you could get a PhD spot somewhere.

Granted it's a different situation, but I got a PhD before med school. I had a 520 MCAT, 3.9 GPA and the school where I got my PhD didn't even accept me into their MD program (not even a top 30 school).

If you rock the MCAT, there could be some MD schools that look at your app possibly. But MCAT won't make up for GPA. GPA = can handle the med curriculum. MCAT = passes standardized exams. Generally need both.

If you want to be a physician, I would focus on DO at this point though. If you have some state connections or have something else remarkable about your application/narrative, you could try a few MD schools.

Retaking the NetSec courses will be a waste of time. Med schools won't care if you 'redeem yourself' so to speak in courses that are relatively unrelated to medical curriculum. Medical schools care that you can handle a bunch of tough science heavy courses/material at the same time. You may have shown that in your later years as an undergrad when you switched to chem. However, with all the apps schools get, that point may be missed by a lot of people who will just look at your sub 3.0 gpa and move on.

It sounds like you have a pretty good load of credits under your belt as well, so taking upper level science courses to increase your GPA will likely take some time. So the only reason you would even think of taking the NetSec courses is if they are easy As that will boost your GPA. That's probably not the best reason to do it at this point.

 

[TheBookman]

I guess stranger things have happened, but I doubt you'll get into an MD-PhD program with your stats/story. As gyngyn pointed out, these programs are typically very competitive to get into since there are so few spots offered.

In general, the way I understand it, getting your foot in the door for one thing doesn't necessarily make it easy to get your other foot in the door so to speak. So if someone is applying to an MD-JD program, just getting into the JD program doesn't mean getting into the MD program is somewhat easier. I think you have to be competitive for both (as if applying separately). You aren't very competitive for many MD programs right now despite the fact that you could get a PhD spot somewhere.

Granted it's a different situation, but I got a PhD before med school. I had a 520 MCAT, 3.9 GPA and the school where I got my PhD didn't even accept me into their MD program (not even a top 30 school).

If you rock the MCAT, there could be some MD schools that look at your app possibly. But MCAT won't make up for GPA. GPA = can handle the med curriculum. MCAT = passes standardized exams. Generally need both.

If you want to be a physician, I would focus on DO at this point though. If you have some state connections or have something else remarkable about your application/narrative, you could try a few MD schools.

Retaking the NetSec courses will be a waste of time. Med schools won't care if you 'redeem yourself' so to speak in courses that are relatively unrelated to medical curriculum. Medical schools care that you can handle a bunch of tough science heavy courses/material at the same time. You may have shown that in your later years as an undergrad when you switched to chem. However, with all the apps schools get, that point may be missed by a lot of people who will just look at your sub 3.0 gpa and move on.

It sounds like you have a pretty good load of credits under your belt as well, so taking upper level science courses to increase your GPA will likely take some time. So the only reason you would even think of taking the NetSec courses is if they are easy As that will boost your GPA. That's probably not the best reason to do it at this point.

Thank you and the other's for the detailed replies.

I have no real interest in going through "fresh starts" or giving up. I will keep moving forward and finding ways to help differentiate myself from other more traditional students. Just to be clear, the issue is that my GPA is sub-3.0 and that will prevent most school from even looking at my overall application, correct?

I have been going through and looking at the various courses I can do and if I go through a traditional PhD route, I could raise my overall GPA to around 3.3-3.4 with the core science/math courses being a 3.8-3.9. At that point, would I be seen as an account that would actually be somewhat "worthy"? This is over 3-5 years, mind. I have no intention of doing the MCAT and applying until I have many of the "issues" rectified. I don't want to throw money at applications that have a less than 1% chance of being looked at.

 

[gyngyn]

I have been going through and looking at the various courses I can do and if I go through a traditional PhD route, I could raise my overall GPA to around 3.3-3.4 with the core science/math courses being a 3.8-3.9.

Grades for Master's and PhD programs are not factored into undergraduate grades at MD schools.
Your undergraduate grades will appear in a separate category and will not change with this approach.

DO schools do include them, though.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hello everyone!

So I have changed majors quite a few times over my long years in college. I have switched from Network Security to Computer Science before finding my passion in Chemistry where I had earned my first degree. I was in the process of earning my PhD in Chemistry when COVID-19 hit and layoffs occurred (funding dried up and I can't work for free). As I was stuck in a location where I could not use my degree and could not afford to move thanks to student loans, I eventually found myself working in a hospital where I learned about Medical Lab Science and am currently in a program to earn my degree. It was thanks to this program and the two years prior that I learned, discussed, and met numerous MDs and MD/PhDs who have shown me a path that I am eager to start on. However, there is one major fear I have and that is my GPA.
...

Am I right to be concerned? Am I over thinking things? Should I just bite the bullet and retake those NetSec courses?

Have your MD/PhD mentors connected you with MD/PhD administrators or admissions staff? We have our Research Scientists forum that also has a couple of program directors and quite a few MSTP students.

 

[TheBookman]

Have your MD/PhD mentors connected you with MD/PhD administrators or admissions staff? We have our Research Scientists forum that also has a couple of program directors and quite a few MSTP students.

They have not. Most of them haven't been in med school for 20-30+ years at this point and I think most of whom they have known have either retired or have sadly passed away.

Grades for Master's and PhD programs are not factored into undergraduate grades at MD schools.
Your undergraduate grades will appear in a separate category and will not change with this approach.

DO schools do include them, though.

Well bugger. Beginning to think it is just going to be near impossible lol.

Won't give up and I will keep striving to get better, but dang.

 

[m2regen]

Won't give up and I will keep striving to get better, but dang.

All the best for your future efforts, and keep at it! I applied to MD/PhD programs with a <3.0 GPA & got one acceptance (all you need!). While it is technically true that MD/PhD applicants (as a whole) are more competitive, there are fewer applicants and actually a greater chance at holistic review if there are other standout aspects of your application.

However, it's not a walk in the park, and took years of intentional effort, focus, and luck. Everything else in your application has to be bulletproof. For me, I had an M.S. GPA of 3.8, 4 years research experience, and a 99th percentile MCAT score, and that still got me only one interview. In theory, a special master's program (SMP) would have been better than my M.S. but I was working full-time and needed an M.S. that would actually be useful in case I didn't get in.

 

[TheBookman]

All the best for your future efforts, and keep at it! I applied to MD/PhD programs with a <3.0 GPA & got one acceptance (all you need!). While it is technically true that MD/PhD applicants (as a whole) are more competitive, there are fewer applicants and actually a greater chance at holistic review if there are other standout aspects of your application.

However, it's not a walk in the park, and took years of intentional effort, focus, and luck. Everything else in your application has to be bulletproof. For me, I had an M.S. GPA of 3.8, 4 years research experience, and a 99th percentile MCAT score, and that still got me only one interview. In theory, a special master's program (SMP) would have been better than my M.S. but I was working full-time and needed an M.S. that would actually be useful in case I didn't get in.

Let's say I wanted to be an MD-PhD with a focus in Neuroscience. I want to deal with patients, but I still want to primarily focus on research (which was the reason I was interested in MD-PhD in the first place as I can do both). Currently I am getting good to stellar grades in my MLS program. It is very difficult (Summer program is basically 6 courses condensed into 10 day semesters, back to back to back and it isn't any easier or less intense than a normal version of the course), but rewarding. After this, I work out some courses that I could do better in, shore up deficiencies in my undergrad GPA, and say I apply to a Special Master's in Neuroscience. If I maintain a 3.8-4.0 GPA, do as well on the MCat as you, and have the research - would you think I would have a better chance then?

 

[gyngyn]

If I maintain a 3.8-4.0 GPA, do as well on the MCat as you, and have the research - would you think I would have a better chance then?

Physician's can do research without a PhD. Many of us are required to do so!
It is more likely that you will succeed with an MD/DO application (rather than MSTP).

 

[Goro]

Hello everyone!

So I have changed majors quite a few times over my long years in college. I have switched from Network Security to Computer Science before finding my passion in Chemistry where I had earned my first degree. I was in the process of earning my PhD in Chemistry when COVID-19 hit and layoffs occurred (funding dried up and I can't work for free). As I was stuck in a location where I could not use my degree and could not afford to move thanks to student loans, I eventually found myself working in a hospital where I learned about Medical Lab Science and am currently in a program to earn my degree. It was thanks to this program and the two years prior that I learned, discussed, and met numerous MDs and MD/PhDs who have shown me a path that I am eager to start on. However, there is one major fear I have and that is my GPA.

My overall GPA is absolutely abysmal. From 18-23 I was in NetSec/CompSci and I was routinely getting Ds and Fs with a handful of Cs. It wasn't until I switched to Chemistry where my grades began to climb. Since returning to school, all my grades have been Solid A's and a few B's due to the nature of working two full time jobs while trying to go to school full time (this is changing this coming semester, where I am going to be PRN).

Over the next 3-5 years once I get A's in the rest of this program's courses, I am going to be taking some extra courses while working to raise up my GPA - however this would only ensure that my Science/Math related courses are closer to a 3.8 to 3.9 GPA. My overall GPA would still be sub 3.0. When I had applied to PhD programs, I was able to discuss this and still get schools to look at my application - though I am unsure how it works in the MD field. I would rather not spend thousands of dollars to retake courses that would have no bearing on my future work (nor do I have much interest in general in learning how to build databases or manage an linux server stack).

I have strong letters of recommendation from professors, colleagues, and working MD/PhDs that I have shadowed, thousands of hours of community service and patient facing work under my belt, and a few written and published research papers including a first name authorship. I will also have 3-5 years of working in a clinical setting (even if it is as an MLS, not an MD/PhD) come the time I apply.

I do not plan on applying for the "top of the line" schools as I am of the belief that any school is a good school if you put forth the time and effort to see growth in your professional field. I just fear that even applying to "lower end" schools, my application will be tossed in the bin upon immediatley seeing the overall GPA and not the 14 years of schooling that saw remarkable improvements and a strong GPA within the sciences.

Am I right to be concerned? Am I over thinking things? Should I just bite the bullet and retake those NetSec courses?

Read this:

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[Mr.Smile12]

You can also go to the Physician Scientists forum where the MD/PhD's roam. I think you would be better suited for MD-only (why defer another 8 years of your life).

 

[m2regen]

Let's say I wanted to be an MD-PhD with a focus in Neuroscience. I want to deal with patients, but I still want to primarily focus on research (which was the reason I was interested in MD-PhD in the first place as I can do both). Currently I am getting good to stellar grades in my MLS program. It is very difficult (Summer program is basically 6 courses condensed into 10 day semesters, back to back to back and it isn't any easier or less intense than a normal version of the course), but rewarding. After this, I work out some courses that I could do better in, shore up deficiencies in my undergrad GPA, and say I apply to a Special Master's in Neuroscience. If I maintain a 3.8-4.0 GPA, do as well on the MCat as you, and have the research - would you think I would have a better chance then?

If you do everything well, your chances will be better, but there becomes a question of diminishing returns with all additional efforts. For example, with a uGPA below 3.0, there's nothing you can really do to salvage that due to the sheer number of credits that go into an uGPA. Ultimately, I think it's a better story and use of time to have just have a single master's GPA that's close to 4.0. Remember that the purpose of GPA is to answer the question "will this applicant do well in medical school classes?" That is why SMP is the best program for low GPA, because you literally take medical school classes for a grade. Everything else is secondary.

Assuming you did your best there, you will need to work on articulating your motivation for MD/PhD. Wanting to take care of patients & do research is not enough because anyone can say that, and you can achieve that from many other paths. (i.e. MD-only, and technically nursing, pharmacy, etc.). There has to be a specific vision of your future career based in your own experience that is impossible to achieve without both an MD and PhD.

Speaking retrospectively from my own experience, if your goal is to be a faculty and lab PI, then PhD only is a better use of your time. An MD is a lot of effort in learning how to manage patients, that would just be a waste of learning if you end up being a PI, although I do concede that learning medicine had made me a much better researcher. Regardless, practicing medicine is my priority, and the reality is that most MD/PhD end up doing mostly practice due to the sheer difficulty and luck needed to start up a research lab, and the loss of momentum inherent to MD/PhD programs. Depending on the vision of your career, you should be able to speak on your thoughts towards this potential outcome.

Now if taking care of patients is an essential part of your career vision, then there is an evolving school of thought that it's actually better to do just MD and then do the PhD during or after residency (see UCLA STAR program), or to be an independent MD investigator. While MD/PhD programs are great in theory, the loss of momentum is significant negative pressure on research careers of MD/PhD program graduates, and not losing momentum from PhD to postdoc is an advantage.

I didn't really know this before joining an MD/PhD program, but I think it's an important consideration for what you want to do with your time. Not trying to rain on MD/PhD programs (as I am an MD/PhD student), but being informed of all benefits and risks will serve you no matter what path you choose.

 

[TheBookman]

If you do everything well, your chances will be better, but there becomes a question of diminishing returns with all additional efforts. For example, with a uGPA below 3.0, there's nothing you can really do to salvage that due to the sheer number of credits that go into an uGPA. Ultimately, I think it's a better story and use of time to have just have a single master's GPA that's close to 4.0. Remember that the purpose of GPA is to answer the question "will this applicant do well in medical school classes?" That is why SMP is the best program for low GPA, because you literally take medical school classes for a grade. Everything else is secondary.

Assuming you did your best there, you will need to work on articulating your motivation for MD/PhD. Wanting to take care of patients & do research is not enough because anyone can say that, and you can achieve that from many other paths. (i.e. MD-only, and technically nursing, pharmacy, etc.). There has to be a specific vision of your future career based in your own experience that is impossible to achieve without both an MD and PhD.

Speaking retrospectively from my own experience, if your goal is to be a faculty and lab PI, then PhD only is a better use of your time. An MD is a lot of effort in learning how to manage patients, that would just be a waste of learning if you end up being a PI, although I do concede that learning medicine had made me a much better researcher. Regardless, practicing medicine is my priority, and the reality is that most MD/PhD end up doing mostly practice due to the sheer difficulty and luck needed to start up a research lab, and the loss of momentum inherent to MD/PhD programs. Depending on the vision of your career, you should be able to speak on your thoughts towards this potential outcome.

Now if taking care of patients is an essential part of your career vision, then there is an evolving school of thought that it's actually better to do just MD and then do the PhD during or after residency (see UCLA STAR program), or to be an independent MD investigator. While MD/PhD programs are great in theory, the loss of momentum is significant negative pressure on research careers of MD/PhD program graduates, and not losing momentum from PhD to postdoc is an advantage.

I didn't really know this before joining an MD/PhD program, but I think it's an important consideration for what you want to do with your time. Not trying to rain on MD/PhD programs (as I am an MD/PhD student), but being informed of all benefits and risks will serve you no matter what path you choose.

I will be going to SMP route after a lot of contemplation. Do you happen to have any resources into looking at quality schools that are more willing to allow lower GPA returning students? I should be graduating with an average GPA of around 3.7 GPA with my recent program (MLS) this May. I want to start rolling into an SMP within a year or two's time.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I will be going to SMP route after a lot of contemplation. Do you happen to have any resources into looking at quality schools that are more willing to allow lower GPA returning students? I should be graduating with an average GPA of around 3.7 GPA with my recent program (MLS) this May. I want to start rolling into an SMP within a year or two's time.

We do have a postbac forum, so don't hesitate to ask them.

Usually the three most important items: cost, student support, and linkages to desired schools on your list. As a career-changer, you need to know what you need with courses and support to move you forward, and your lower GPA could be fine if you ask program directors.