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Grades/AOA, Step 1, Research, Med school prestige, personal connections. Those are the most important factors.
Completely agree. If you're applying to a top academic places, don't downplay research and med school prestige. Everyone at those schools has amazing grades and step scores...you'll have to go to the others to distinguish. If you want to interview at a top academic place, get started from day 1 and publish something.
I'd like to mention one thing that ISN'T on there are ECs. Whoever said PDs don't really care about ECs is right. At "top" places, you're being picked by people whose entire lives exist because they know how to do research and write grants...not because they were class treasurer or volunteered at the women's shelter on weekends.
Finally, this whole bit about Step 1 being equally important is ridiculous. That plus your 3rd year grades are how you get your interviews. Like was said before, you would do the same thing if you were the PD and needed to pick the best 300-400 applicants to interview from a >1500 applicant pool.
I don't think you can downplay med school prestige, it isn't a controllable factor for any of us in medical school.
You' re right. There's nothing you can do about it. Except just to be aware that prestige of the school matters so if you go to one of those aforementioned schools, youll automatically be at an advantage (implying your step 1 is high enough).
I'd agree with this. I just interviewed at two of the most competitive programs in my field. Of the 25 interviewees, only two weren't from top 25 schools.
If you are "merely" a well-rounded applicant, it's important to be from a name brand school.
Otherwise breaking into the top programs in competitive specialties requires some hooks in your application, which could include stellar research and outstanding potential to be a future leader, being the offspring of a well known practitioner in the field, or being a member of a sexy minority group.
Once you get to the interview, being tall and good-looking helps a lot, too.
At some schools, that certainly seems to be true. There also appears to be a substantial regional bias for how interviews are granted.Grades and Step 1 are often not enough to offset a lack of prestige.
This feels like we are going in circles.
If you have aspirations of becoming a famous academic physician at the blue chip programs, pick the fancy name over the less known name. If you don't care so much, then the cheaper school may work out better. If you changed your mind halfway through, work hard and just your course to the best of your ability.
Study hard. Do the best you humanly can on Step 1 and Step 2. If the end result isn't what you hoped for, that ship has sailed. Adjust accordingly and move on.
If you like research or have a passing interest in a field that requires research, then see about getting involved. If not, your course may or may not be adjusted accordingly.
Don't be a douche around people. Don't think you're better than anyone. Work hard. If you're an oblivious douche, your course will be adjusted for you unknowingly.
That is what I gleaned from this thread so far....
I'd like to mention one thing that ISN'T on there are ECs. Whoever said PDs don't really care about ECs is right. At "top" places, you're being picked by people whose entire lives exist because they know how to do research and write grants...not because they were class treasurer or volunteered at the women's shelter on weekends.
I am a DO applying to both DO and MD EM this year. I would agree that step 1 is by far the most important thing to get an interview, period. I have been pretty surprised at just how competitive EM is, as I always felt it was a "middle of the road" field. Many MD places seem to be getting 1500-2000 applications for 15 spots and DO programs get 500-800 for 6 spots.
I am a DO applying to both DO and MD EM this year. I would agree that step 1 is by far the most important thing to get an interview, period. I have been pretty surprised at just how competitive EM is, as I always felt it was a "middle of the road" field. Many MD places seem to be getting 1500-2000 applications for 15 spots and DO programs get 500-800 for 6 spots. You have to have something that sets you apart and it seems that research is essentially worthless in EM. I have a unique background via a previous career outside of medicine that has been talked about at length in all my interviews and I think may be the one thing that PDs will remember about me. I would advise anyone to have something of interest about them that sets them apart from the rest of herd that is completely outside the world of medicine. Showing that you are a complete person with unique life experiences makes them like you. Who would you rather work with, a guy who sat in the lab and looked at a microscope all through college, or one that traveled the globe/started a business/played the drums in a rock band?
The other thing I wish I knew was just how little time you have to pick a field. I bounced back and forth between ENT, surg, and EM all through school for no real reason other than I liked the "idea" of being one of those types of doctors. I expected that step 1 would cut my options down but when I did pretty good on it, I had to make some decisions. For me, I decided that I had to give one field all my energy. I don't think I could have applied to two of them and been a quality candidate. And because there are only so many golden elective months, you have to decide early. Best advice I got was to pick two by December of your 3rdyear, and then set up away's in both. By 4th year pick one and run with it. Audition months fill up crazy fast in small competitive fields like ENT and Optho and even EM.
Being a DO has been a mixed bag. I feel that all of the MD programs have been extremely open and honest about their opinions of DO's, some mind, some dont, I certainly can't fault them for it. I only applied to places that had taken a DO recently and I think that is the best course. Also, I have been very surprised with the quality of most of the DO programs (all but one of the 10 I went to have been solid), however, geographically speaking the DO programs are pretty crappy (MI, OH, PA). Deciding to drop out of the DO match has been hard and Im still not sure what to do.
My mantra would be, study hard, pick a field early that you enjoy, and don't be a prick.
This feels like we are going in circles.
If you have aspirations of becoming a famous academic physician at the blue chip programs, pick the fancy name over the less known name. If you don't care so much, then the cheaper school may work out better. If you changed your mind halfway through, work hard and adjust your course to the best of your ability.
Study hard. Do the best you humanly can on Step 1 and Step 2. If the end result isn't what you hoped for, that ship has sailed. Adjust accordingly and move on.
If you like research or have a passing interest in a field that requires research, then see about getting involved. If not, your course may or may not be adjusted accordingly.
Don't be a douche around people. Don't think you're better than anyone. Work hard. If you're an oblivious douche, your course will be adjusted for you unknowingly.
That is what I gleaned from this thread so far....
I'm glad you brought this up because I don't think most students understand the concept. You typically see the same college mentality carrying over into medical school where people try to snap up as many ECs as they can. If you're into it that's cool but you know most people can't be actually interested enough to be on the board of 5 different student organizations...I just think most people still believe that ECs are gonna be major parts of their applications when (many) residency programs don't care that much. They aren't choosing you so you can go volunteer at the free clinic every week (although programs will sometimes have you volunteer a night every now and then). They're picking you to slave away in their program for the next 3-4 years.
Prestige matters in residency for private practice too.
Well, thanks for taking a sarcastic reply intended to point out how ridiculous and overly analytical the debate has gotten literally.... But in that case, I will take the bait.
Only in select circumstances where you want or have to live in some very specific popular area. If you just want to be where the majority of doctors are, then no, it doesn't matter much. I am not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying that the prestige factor doesn't outweigh an extra 100+k of debt if you are just aiming to end up in some small or moderate sized city. I know multiple people that hire for their groups and we have talked about the prestige thing. Many of them went off the interview and how they felt they melded with the group. A few hired a doc because of prestige and then had nothing but problems. Prestige does not equate with being a good doctor or practice partner. I know my dad's group even had to let their blue chip academic guy go because he was...well, too academic. He was painfully slow with his reads and just could never seem to keep up with the pace of the practice.
The elite private practice groups mostly recruit from top places. One of the private practice radiology groups here (median salary well > 1M) has more than half of their 30 members from MIR, UCSF, MGH, and other top 10 programs. Remember in rads less than 50% go into academics at all but very few programs.
What do you mean by elite private practice groups? The ones in desirable locations? The ones that own their own equipment? -- it seems difficult to clear a mil unless you're collecting both the professional and technical fee.
I thought residency prestige actually correlated slightly negatively with future income. Not only do more of their residents go into low paying jobs in academics, but they tend to work in more saturated markets in desirable locations.
It was also my impression that in terms of salary across different groups in similar practice situations and locations, it is pretty egalitarian. But what do I know. Nobody releases true compensation numbers.
I'm guessing the ones that pay the most. Even the top places like MGH send the vast majority of their residents into PP. Volume and getting fast matters a lot though. If you know you want to do a fast paced PP job that's higher paying you should probably avoid a place with lower volume like Stanford from what I've heard but I'm just going off hearsay
But isn't pay directly tied into how many RVUs you can / are willing to read? That seems to depend on YOU, not your residency prestige. Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what would account for a difference in pay there.
What do you mean by elite private practice groups? The ones in desirable locations? The ones that own their own equipment? -- it seems difficult to clear a mil unless you're collecting both the professional and technical fee.
I thought residency prestige actually correlated slightly negatively with future income. Not only do more of their residents go into low paying jobs in academics, but they tend to work in more saturated markets in desirable locations.
It was also my impression that in terms of salary across different groups in similar practice situations and locations, it is pretty egalitarian. But what do I know. Nobody releases true compensation numbers.
Doing well on step 1's was obvious to me but in terms of research, what's the best way to go about it? For M1s, I feel like most of us don't know which specialty we want to go into. We may have an idea but it's likely to change. People interested in optho might do optho specific research but what if they decide to do something else completely unrelated? What research topics is best to go into if you have no idea what specialty you want to apply to? I don't know if there's any harm in doing subject specific research but interested in how other people approached their research.
Thanks
Subject specific research>Non-subject specific>No research
It always helps to do research, and if you get it right the first time then it helps more. You can always hedge your bets by choosing wisely. For example: Interested in EM, trauma, and optho? Do research on emergency eye trauma. In other words, making it specific to more than one specialty always helps.
Does it hurt much to have done research in a field that is unrelated to the field you end up applying to for residency? For example, what if I did optho research for M1 and some of second year because I am interested in it but I find cardio more interesting later and apply to residency for that?
Besides doing research, isn't there any close EC next to research? Are all all other ECs, no matter how great, a distant second to research?
Which is valued more? Basic science research or clinical research?
I didn't see these questions answered in this thread(unless I missed it when reading through) and was wondering these questions too. Any input? Thanks!!
No, in general there is no close EC to research. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do something else but don't think that joining your schools "Ortho Interest Group" is anywhere near as important as research. The one exception to this is if you're sure you're going into something PC related, a project where you start/run something like a homeless health clinic or similar major health outreach program will be viewed pretty favorably by FM and PC-type IM programs. Derm programs will wonder why you were wasting your time on homeless people when they can't afford BoTox anyway.
As for which research is more valued, I think that good research is better, not bench vs. clinical. A solid clinical study (a trial for instance) will be more important than running a few gels over the summer. A good basic science project that gets published in a decent journal will be better than a chart review that you present at the regional ACP conference, etc.
How much impact do bench research publications obtained before med school have on your residency application? I have a pub from my 2 gap years working in a research lab. And there's 2 more publications I will be on that would get published while I'm in med school (though I'm not working in that lab anymore). I've heard you can put these on the residency application, but I was curious as to how they would be viewed as.
bump
Also, what about pubs from ugrad? Does having these pubs before med school give a student more leeway in their summer between M1/M2 to not worry so much about being strategic in gaining authorship and perhaps do something else? For example, there are those students that spend their summer in another country and sometimes do clinical research there. In a way, they get to have their last summer and also have the potential to experience a totally different patient population. Or is it smarter in the long run for a student to be involved in a research (basic or clinical) project at their home institution?
Would research pubs as an undergrad help out?
Drink, watch sports, read, hang out, etc.What about for specialities that are not as competitive, like Psych or Pedes? What would be the best way to spend the M1 summer, doing a clinical research project or doing a medical mission in another country?
What about for specialities that are not as competitive, like Psych or Pedes? What would be the best way to spend the M1 summer, doing a clinical research project or doing a medical mission in another country? Is doing advocacy/prevention work in the community (not research, more like service) valued in applying for residency? I'm interested in doing so many things that summer, I can't decide!
If I were you, I'd do clinical research. Even though psych is less competitive, you can bet the class at UCSF or stanford has a much higher average than the average of the specialty as a whole. When you get into the upper levels, everyone looks similar on paper and it'll be those other things that distinguish you. Having said that, most people who will be interviewing you at big name academic places will be/are doing research and will be/are most interested in that.
Or you can decide you just wanna do a community program in a less competitive specialty and drink/play your M1 summer away. Nothing wrong with that either.
Meh, my brother did nothing his m1 summer and is chief resident at one of the Harvard hospitals in a surgical subspecialty now. You don't absolutely need research to get into a top academic place, even in the most competitive specialties (except rad-onc, probably)
Meh, my brother did nothing his m1 summer and is chief resident at one of the Harvard hospitals in a surgical subspecialty now. You don't absolutely need research to get into a top academic place, even in the most competitive specialties (except rad-onc, probably)
That's probably because he was awesome.
Those of us who are less awesome sometimes need a boost in the form of research =), especially if we come from a less-than-stellar med school.