Multiple Attempts Applicants

[LyraGardenia]

As someone who has been on their own since 15 years old, and quite literally did have to claw their way out of really difficult circumstances, it's hard for me not to take offense to this. Obviously you have no idea what it is like for someone in those kinds of circumstances. What it's like to not even know if you'll be able to eat, or have somewhere safe to sleep, from one day to the next. Or the violence that you have to deal with on an almost daily basis, and the psychological impact of that. How the constant stress of those kinds of situations makes it difficult just to remember things. Or how there is no one around to tell you how to apply for college, and financial aid, and take SAT's, etc. Or that you have to work almost 20 hours at a minimum wage job just to pay for the SAT and a college application - never mind the cost of tuition and books (which a Pell Grant does not completely cover). That's if you can even get a job.

Or - if you do somehow manage to overcome all of that and get to college - God forbid something happens to you in the middle of the semester, like getting sick or hurt, so you're not able to go to work. Because then, since you're barely scraping by from paycheck to paycheck and there's no one you can fall back on for help, you might get kicked out of your place. You might end up having to drop out of class so you can work extra hours, so you don't end up back on the street. But if you do that, then your financial aid will be withdrawn. You will have to find a way to pay for those classes that you didn't finish out of pocket before you can enroll for the next semester. Classes that cost more than you'll make in the next 3 months, even if you put 100% of your income towards paying for them. (But then, what do you live on). So it could be another year before you can even start back at school... and that's just scratching the surface.

Like I said - you have no idea what it's like. I'm not saying that what you've done isn't difficult, or that you shouldn't be commended for how much you accomplished during your undergrad. But please don't compare yourself to someone who came from much less fortunate circumstances and say that you should be judged by the same criteria, because you don't compare. The ability to overcome so much adversity, and achieve what many people with more advantages couldn't, is most certainly an indicator of potential success. Because it IS success.

I definitely agree with what you're saying, but I can also see how pinkpuppy would be annoyed to be told by an admissions counselor "well, your stats would be good enough if you were from a disadvantaged background." That's not helpful, because it's not something you can control or change to improve your app. Unless the admissions officer was trying to find out if there was some sort of disadvantaged circumstances that you forgot to mention on your app, maybe?

I think if schools are letting in students with 2.0 GPAs just because of lower socioeconomic status, that is unfair, but I don't think that's happening. Like WildZoo and Gemgrrrl said, schools just want to make sure that applicants who succeeded academically despite their circumstances are recognized. I do agree, pinkpuppy, that working full time while going to school full time definitely isn't something everyone does, let alone while maintaining a 3.6. Claiming a need to work full time while in school as disadvantaged circumstances is a stretch, but doing so and doing that well is still commendable.

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[pinkpuppy9]

As someone who has been on their own since 15 years old, and quite literally did have to claw their way out of really difficult circumstances, it's hard for me not to take offense to this. Obviously you have no idea what it is like for someone in those kinds of circumstances. What it's like to not even know if you'll be able to eat, or have somewhere safe to sleep, from one day to the next. Or the violence that you have to deal with on an almost daily basis, and the psychological impact of that. How the constant stress of those kinds of situations makes it difficult just to remember things. Or how there is no one around to tell you how to apply for college, and financial aid, and take SAT's, etc. Or that you have to work almost 20 hours at a minimum wage job just to pay for the SAT and a college application - never mind the cost of tuition and books (which a Pell Grant does not completely cover). That's if you can even get a job.

Or - if you do somehow manage to overcome all of that and get to college - God forbid something happens to you in the middle of the semester, like getting sick or hurt, so you're not able to go to work. Because then, since you're barely scraping by from paycheck to paycheck and there's no one you can fall back on for help, you might get kicked out of your place. You might end up having to drop out of class so you can work extra hours, so you don't end up back on the street. But if you do that, then your financial aid will be withdrawn. You will have to find a way to pay for those classes that you didn't finish out of pocket before you can enroll for the next semester. Classes that cost more than you'll make in the next 3 months, even if you put 100% of your income towards paying for them. (But then, what do you live on). So it could be another year before you can even start back at school... and that's just scratching the surface.

Like I said - you have no idea what it's like. I'm not saying that what you've done isn't difficult, or that you shouldn't be commended for how much you accomplished during your undergrad. But please don't compare yourself to someone who came from much less fortunate circumstances and say that you should be judged by the same criteria, because you don't compare. The ability to overcome so much adversity, and achieve what many people with more advantages couldn't, is most certainly an indicator of potential success. Because it IS success.

I'm truly sorry you've had to go through all of that. Really. I never once compared myself to someone who has had legitimate struggles in his/her life, nor did I say someone who overcame such struggles wasn't successful or deserving. I think you misunderstood where I was coming from completely. Saying that I think a 3.6 is considered a 'higher number' depending on who you are is what I think is absurd. A GPA is supposed to be objective. It's one of the few objective things about an application.

However, (mind you, this is what I was told) I think there is an issue when a student who has done well in school is told it won't cut it unless I have suffered from some extreme circumstances. To literally be told that if I had that same 3.6, but could write more than what I had in my socioeconomic difficulties essay would mean I would be more highly considered/competitive.....I don't know. I know I'm lucky to not have more to write in that essay, and I get where you're coming from. One of my closest friends was in a situation similar to yours. I know what she had to go through to make her way into undergrad. I just don't think it's right to be told what I was told, or to hear from other students that they're told the same thing.

The undergrad portion of my IS school is already trying to climb out of hot water for the way they handle students with 'life challenges' and trying to develop better programs for them instead of what they have been doing previously. Idk if it's like this at other universities, but it's actually a pretty big issue at MSU (likely since Detroit is notorious around the country). I think this is why they publicly value 'socioeconomic challenges'....to encourage those students to apply. I don't know if many other schools do that. I think the professional programs and graduate programs could use a little refurbishing, too.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I definitely agree with what you're saying, but I can also see how pinkpuppy would be annoyed to be told by an admissions counselor "well, your stats would be good enough if you were from a disadvantaged background." That's not helpful, because it's not something you can control or change to improve your app. Unless the admissions officer was trying to find out if there was some sort of disadvantaged circumstances that you forgot to mention on your app, maybe?

I agree that it would be frustrating, if you were to look at it from that perspective. You can't control what circumstances you're born into, and I can't imagine that anyone would wish to go through what I did just so they could bolster their vet school application. But that's the mistake, isn't it? To see those experiences as an improvement on an application. They're not in any way a benefit.

I can't say what the admissions counselor's intent was in what she said and, no matter what she meant to say, she clearly wasn't very eloquent about it. But sometimes you just have to look at things from the perspective of what you can do, and not what you can't. If she said something like that to me, my response would be "What do you suggest I do to improve my application for the next round?" It definitely wouldn't be to complain that the disadvantaged are getting preferential treatment.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I definitely agree with what you're saying, but I can also see how pinkpuppy would be annoyed to be told by an admissions counselor "well, your stats would be good enough if you were from a disadvantaged background." That's not helpful, because it's not something you can control or change to improve your app. Unless the admissions officer was trying to find out if there was some sort of disadvantaged circumstances that you forgot to mention on your app, maybe?

I think if schools are letting in students with 2.0 GPAs just because of lower socioeconomic status, that is unfair, but I don't think that's happening. Like WildZoo and Gemgrrrl said, schools just want to make sure that applicants who succeeded academically despite their circumstances are recognized. I do agree, pinkpuppy, that working full time while going to school full time definitely isn't something everyone does, let alone while maintaining a 3.6. Claiming a need to work full time while in school as disadvantaged circumstances is a stretch, but doing so and doing that well is still commendable.

Yeah, maybe I just didn't word my feelings right. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, honestly. To be clear, I had asked the adviser if working that much would be considered a challenge (if I didn't cover my tuition, I wouldn't have my degree right now). I'm not on the adcom. The adviser isn't even on the adcom, last I checked.

I found myself searching for something to put, especially since she said I wouldn't cut it if I didn't have something. I asked if my dad being hospitalized and unable to work for several months and me doing a lot of driving back and forth, dealing with more financial probelsm, etc. would have mattered. Nope. So again, what is difficult for one is a walk in the park for another. I can't imagine being on the streets. But since I do have parental involvement, having one of them seriously, seriously ill is completely awful for me. You didn't have a roof over your head for part of your life, I was on the edge of my seat every time my phone rang, expecting it to be a call that my dad had died. And that fear lasted for almost a year and a half as my dad went up and down. Who gets to decide which was the bigger struggle? If they're deciding between Gem and another student who has overcome challenges, who was more challenged? How can an adcom that is likely full of middle/upper class white academicians, doctors, and whoever else even relate to those challenges and make those calls?

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I'm truly sorry you've had to go through all of that. Really. I never once compared myself to someone who has had legitimate struggles in his/her life, nor did I say someone who overcame such struggles wasn't successful or deserving. I think you misunderstood where I was coming from completely. Saying that I think a 3.6 is considered a 'higher number' depending on who you are is what I think is absurd. A GPA is supposed to be objective. It's one of the few objective things about an application.

I hear what you're saying. I just disagree that GPA is completely objective. I knew a girl (as I'm sure we all do) who had a private tutor all the way through college. Her parents paid $40 an hour for her to meet with an organic chemistry tutor twice a week for the entire two semester sequence. That tutor just happened to have taught the course at the same university before she retired. Do you think that student might have had an advantage over other students? Of course, if she had no aptitude for chemistry, and didn't study at all, she would't have made the grade no matter how much tutoring she got. But there was definitely an advantage to it. How many students take $1500 GRE prep courses, or have interview coaches? Those things do make a difference, and those things are not available to the socioeconomically disadvantaged. Just like having food in your stomach and a roof over your head makes it much easier to study and be well rested before exams.

However, (mind you, this is what I was told) I think there is an issue when a student who has done well in school is told it won't cut it unless I have suffered from some extreme circumstances. To literally be told that if I had that same 3.6, but could write more than what I had in my socioeconomic difficulties essay would mean I would be more highly considered/competitive.....I don't know.

Again, I understand where you're coming from. I know it must have been really hard for you to hear that, and frustrating to feel like a decision was made based on circumstances that were totally out of your control. I think that maybe it was a case of having a few applicants who were very similar academically, and having to choose between them. In those cases, it really comes down to the nitty-gritty stuff, and I think most schools try to have a diverse student body. I think the counselor definitely could have done a better job of explaining that. But don't let what she said stand in your way. You really should be very proud of your accomplishments. It sounds like you have a really strong application, and that you're very passionate. This doesn't mean that you'll never get where you want to be. You might just have to take a different route than you thought you would. Sometimes those detours will take you to the most amazing places. Hang in there.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

But since I do have parental involvement, having one of them seriously, seriously ill is completely awful for me. You didn't have a roof over your head for part of your life, I was on the edge of my seat every time my phone rang, expecting it to be a call that my dad had died. And that fear lasted for almost a year and a half as my dad went up and down.

That is really awful, and i'm sorry you had to go through that. I tell my daughter all the time not to compare her circumstances to those of other people - because the worst thing each of us has gone through is our worst thing. Who are we to judge which one was more difficult? But that's the unfortunate job of the admissions committees. They have to decide, with actually very limited information, who is better. I'm sure they don't always make the right calls. But I think they try and do the best they can. Keep at it, pinkpuppy9. You'll get there. I'm 40, and I'm just now getting there. I have a feeling it won't take you nearly as long.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think it's important to understand that socioeconomic challenge =/= having experienced any adversity in life.

The former applies to a distinct group of people who systematically have cards stacked against them due to the way education is set up in this society, such that it is incredibly more difficult for them to achieve academic success. There are people out there born in crappy circumstances for whom it would be a miracle to make it through college and earn a bachelor's degree with a 3.6 GPA, and be applying for a doctorate degree. It doesn't make anyone else's 3.6 any less of an accomplishment, but it's just not the same thing.

The latter applies to anyone who has had life challenges, and unfortunately you would have to be incredibly lucky not to have encountered some sort of adversity by the time you hit your 20s. Some have it worse than others. Some people get into car accidents, others get sick, people go bankrupt, or bad things happen to those they love. To persevere and live through these bumps in the road can be incredibly tough, there is absolutely no doubt about that. And how you go through these challenges can say a number about your character, and these things would be appropriate to discuss in your personal statement. But that does not make you socioeconomically challenged. And yes, if you work throughout college and maintain great grades, that should count towards something and it is more impressive than someone who did nothing but study for the same grades. But places to earn points in that is in your extracurricular/job sections, not the socioeconomcic challenge section.

Anyone who has an excellent application will have great chances at getting into vet school regardless of how much privilege they've had. It's not like you get docked points for having privilege... unless you sound snotty and entitled and get rejected for bad personality/attitude. But when we get to the middle of the road applicants to choose from that all kind of look the same (all not perfect, but qualified), there are some choices that have to be made and socioeconomic status is just one of those criteria boost some people up. I would wager that you are much luckier to not be someone who can check that box, than getting a boost because of it. Most schools will really consider different life challenges too in their overall evaluation of applicants, whether it be subjective points somewhere or in evaluation the PS or interview or whatever.

 

[psilovethomas]

For the socioeconomic category on the MSU supplemental, I asked my undergrad adviser if I should write anything for it. He knew my background and where I grew up, and said "You are a white girl who grew up in the suburbs of DC. No, you do not get to write anything for that." I left it blank. If I remember correctly (I filled out the supplemental ~5 years ago), the socioeconomic section was dedicated to those who faced financial or social obstacles that prevented/hindered them from receiving an education. Not saying that having your father in the hospital isn't scary and I am sure it wrecked your life for the time being. But, sometimes it's just better to bite your tongue and move on, @pinkpuppy9. I wouldn't go fishing.

 

[LetItSnow]

Schools also are interested in the information for the purposes of ensuring that they have some diversity in their class. That's not purely a PC type of thing: diversity is useful and fosters broader learning.

To literally be told that if I had that same 3.6, but could write more than what I had in my socioeconomic difficulties essay would mean I would be more highly considered/competitive.....

I guess I don't see any problem whatsoever with that. If I'm evaluating two candidates, and they are equal in all other respects ('the same 3.6'), and that essay is the differentiating factor ... then sure, I could opt to go with someone I perceive to either bring more diversity to my program or to have pushed through more difficult challenges in life. Makes perfect sense to me.

Why on earth do you think that of the two otherwise-equal candidates you're comparing ... they should pick the one with the weaker essay? That's just nonsensical.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

For the socioeconomic category on the MSU supplemental, I asked my undergrad adviser if I should write anything for it. He knew my background and where I grew up, and said "You are a white girl who grew up in the suburbs of DC. No, you do not get to write anything for that." I left it blank. If I remember correctly (I filled out the supplemental ~5 years ago), the socioeconomic section was dedicated to those who faced financial or social obstacles that prevented/hindered them from receiving an education. Not saying that having your father in the hospital isn't scary and I am sure it wrecked your life for the time being. But, sometimes it's just better to bite your tongue and move on, @pinkpuppy9. I wouldn't go fishing.

If they defined it to you that way, then sure. But when I had that meeting, I was told they are interested in "life obstacles." Hence me asking what qualifies, since that's pretty vague if you ask me. I wasn't "fishing," but more asking ".....do you consider ____ an obstacle?" out of confusion.

 

[DVMDream]

Schools also are interested in the information for the purposes of ensuring that they have some diversity in their class. That's not purely a PC type of thing: diversity is useful and fosters broader learning.



I guess I don't see any problem whatsoever with that. If I'm evaluating two candidates, and they are equal in all other respects ('the same 3.6'), and that essay is the differentiating factor ... then sure, I could opt to go with someone I perceive to either bring more diversity to my program or to have pushed through more difficult challenges in life. Makes perfect sense to me.

Why on earth do you think that of the two otherwise-equal candidates you're comparing ... they should pick the one with the weaker essay? That's just nonsensical.

We all know they are supposed to go to the mud wrestling contest before the extra essays.... wouldn't be fair otherwise.

 

[LetItSnow]

We all know they are supposed to go to the mud wrestling contest before the extra essays.... wouldn't be fair otherwise.

You discovered my secret plans for when I'm an admissions director didn't you?

 

[Skimble]

You discovered my secret plans for when I'm an admissions director didn't you?

I thought you'd be more into pudding, jello or some kind of oil wrestling?

 

[DVMDream]

You discovered my secret plans for when I'm an admissions director didn't you?

Yup!

 

[DVMDream]

I thought you'd be more into pudding, jello or some kind of oil wrestling?

I don't think what the wrestling happens in matters, just as long as there is wrestling.

 

[LetItSnow]

I thought you'd be more into pudding, jello or some kind of oil wrestling?

Doesn't matter. Everything after "bikini-clad women" is kinda superfluous.

 

[DVMDream]

Doesn't matter. Everything after "bikini-clad women" is kinda superfluous.

Don't forget there will still be some men you have to "interview" too...

 

[LetItSnow]

Don't forget there will still be some men you have to interview too...

Men are automatically in a challenged socioeconomic category and don't have to participate in that particular activity.

 

[DVMDream]

Men are automatically in a challenged socioeconomic category and don't have to participate in that particular activity.

But this activity is prior to the evaluation of socioeconomic circumstances, remember? Wouldn't be fair otherwise

 

[LetItSnow]

But this activity is prior to the evaluation of socioeconomic circumstances, remember? Wouldn't be fair otherwise

Oh crap. Lawyered.

As a side note, the year before I applied, UMN CVM had a statement on its website encouraging poorly represented groups (with respect to veterinary medicine) to apply. The statement did include men. The entire statement went away a year later.

 

[DVMDream]

Oh crap. Lawyered.

As a side note, the year before I applied, UMN CVM had a statement on its website encouraging poorly represented groups (with respect to veterinary medicine) to apply. The statement did include men. The entire statement went away a year later.

That's funny.

 

[KCgophervet]

Oh crap. Lawyered.

As a side note, the year before I applied, UMN CVM had a statement on its website encouraging poorly represented groups (with respect to veterinary medicine) to apply. The statement did include men. The entire statement went away a year later.

And now we all know how you slipped in under the wire...

 

[LetItSnow]

And now we all know how you slipped in under the wire...

It sure wasn't smarts, as they've now realized. There's a reason that bit was taken off the website, and it's right here.