new DO schools??

[cee]

Just to repeat my earlier question, how will the November app thing work?

everyone is ignoring your question

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[rgerwin]

ok

 

[theraball]

Those of you asking why the schools are opening in the locations they are, and not attached to good universities - in case you haven't found out yet, osteopathic education is, first and foremost, a financial endeavor. I believe the school in CO is the first to actually call itself "for-profit". Get ready for osteopathic schools to be viewed even lower than caribbean.

Get ready for some skepticism. Financial endeavor? For profit? Can you provide any evidence for these statements?

Medical schools are 501(c) non-profit organizations, like most institutions of higher learning in the country. If they weren't, they would not be eligible for federal grants, FAFSA loans, tax deductions for donations, and on and on. An example of a for-profit school is University of Phoenix (you've probably seen their banner ads splattered all over every web site) and their standards are questionable to say the least.

I don't see how medical schools could be for profit and survive.

 

[(nicedream)]

Get ready for some skepticism. Financial endeavor? For profit? Can you provide any evidence for these statements?

Medical schools are 501(c) non-profit organizations, like most institutions of higher learning in the country. If they weren't, they would not be eligible for federal grants, FAFSA loans, tax deductions for donations, and on and on. An example of a for-profit school is University of Phoenix (you've probably seen their banner ads splattered all over every web site) and their standards are questionable to say the least.

I don't see how medical schools could be for profit and survive.

First of all, I understand that the CO school will be classified as "for-profit." However, I think that's only being truthful about what's true of the "non-profit" schools anyway. In any event, it is a PR nightmare in an already bleak PR situation in osteopathic medicine.

Most DO schools are not affiliated with honest-to-god universities (by this I mean basically public universities or long established/respected private universities). They are mostly headed by a small number of people that were involved in their founding, and that in addition to the DO degree also grant things such as PharmD, MPH, what have you. It's no secret that it is more difficult to get approval to grant an MD than a DO. Obviously COCA or the AOA or whoever is behind this explosion of schools is not too discerning. In contrast, the AMA, while recognizing a future physician shortage, is being very conservative with expansion, allowing class size expansions of 10-15% and some new schools at large public universities that can support research and clinical education. The AMA would never, in a million years, allow Lincoln or whatever to start granting MDs, or for Joe Blow to open up Peoria School of Medicine. Ask yourself why the difference.

While DO schools may be "non-profit" in the eyes of the government (which is quite a coup for them), the truth is their leaders are making huge bucks. You telling me that if I opened up a school and started charging 30k/head, with no money to put into research or clinical instructors, and salaried myself, I wouldn't be making a profit?? Multiply 30k by 150 - thats 4.5 million a year just from one class. Osteopathic Ed is by and large not institutional, not connected to universities, not concerned with research or adding to the fund of medical knowledge etc. It is tuition-driven; no grants, no government money, no donations.

You mention University of Phoenix, who's standards you describe as questionable to say the least. Many would say the same about DO schools already - imagine what it will be like when there's a school in Everytown USA set up like shopping centers.

 

[NRAI2001]

Get ready for some skepticism. Financial endeavor? For profit? Can you provide any evidence for these statements?

Medical schools are 501(c) non-profit organizations, like most institutions of higher learning in the country. If they weren't, they would not be eligible for federal grants, FAFSA loans, tax deductions for donations, and on and on. An example of a for-profit school is University of Phoenix (you've probably seen their banner ads splattered all over every web site) and their standards are questionable to say the least.

I don't see how medical schools could be for profit and survive.

So if someone was to attend the Colorado school they wouldnt be elligible for fafsa and grants?

What about the carribean schools, arent they "for profit"?

 

[NRAI2001]

First of all, I understand that the CO school will be classified as "for-profit." However, I think that's only being truthful about what's true of the "non-profit" schools anyway. In any event, it is a PR nightmare in an already bleak PR situation in osteopathic medicine.

Most DO schools are not affiliated with honest-to-god universities (by this I mean basically public universities or long established/respected private universities). They are mostly headed by a small number of people that were involved in their founding, and that in addition to the DO degree also grant things such as PharmD, MPH, what have you. It's no secret that it is more difficult to get approval to grant an MD than a DO. Obviously COCA or the AOA or whoever is behind this explosion of schools is not too discerning. In contrast, the AMA, while recognizing a future physician shortage, is being very conservative with expansion, allowing class size expansions of 10-15% and some new schools at large public universities that can support research and clinical education. The AMA would never, in a million years, allow Lincoln or whatever to start granting MDs, or for Joe Blow to open up Peoria School of Medicine. Ask yourself why the difference.

While DO schools may be "non-profit" in the eyes of the government (which is quite a coup for them), the truth is their leaders are making huge bucks. You telling me that if I opened up a school and started charging 30k/head, with no money to put into research or clinical instructors, and salaried myself, I wouldn't be making a profit?? Multiply 30k by 150 - thats 4.5 million a year just from one class. Osteopathic Ed is by and large not institutional, not connected to universities, not concerned with research or adding to the fund of medical knowledge etc. It is tuition-driven; no grants, no government money, no donations.

You mention University of Phoenix, who's standards you describe as questionable to say the least. Many would say the same about DO schools already - imagine what it will be like when there's a school in Everytown USA set up like shopping centers.

The whole "there will be a DO school in shopping centers" argument is annoying and so stupid. That will never happen.

If every DO school had to be affiliated with a major university, then there would probably be less than half of the number of schools that exist now.

Just bc the rate of DO schools opening now has accelerated, doesnt mean that it will continue as indefinitely. I m sure the number of schools will hit some critical mass and level out.

The opening of more DO schools only helps DOs as their numbers increase and their presence in the medical field becomes more noticed and I m all for the increase.

-Nrai

 

[scpod]

The opening of more DO schools only helps DOs as their numbers increase and their presence in the medical field becomes more noticed and I m all for the increase.

-Nrai

I'm still hearing these physician shortage numbers of something like 200,000 in the coming years. The new schools won't even come close to supplying that kind of need. I'm for it.

 

[medhacker]

I'm still hearing these physician shortage numbers of something like 200,000 in the coming years. The new schools won't even come close to supplying that kind of need. I'm for it.

Count me in!

 

[(nicedream)]

Then get ready to be the Wal-Mart of healthcare. Quality over quantity folks.

People view physicians in the light they do because it is/was so difficult to become one (because there are so few spots). Admissions to school, and success in school, are supposed to be highly selective. The more schools that open, the more DOs are pumped out, the more people will have an image of DOs as the "filler" in US medicine. What says "easy to get into" more than an explosion of new schools?

 

[medhacker]

Not happening!

 

[USArmyDoc]

I love it....We can have 120+ allopathic programs but if you have 20 osteopathic programs you find a reason to bitch. I hate to break it to you (nicedreams) but osteopathic medicine is on the rise. It has and will become more popular as the days go on. Did you ever stop to think that maybe osteopathic medicine is growing and becoming more powerful?

 

[(nicedream)]

I love it....We can have 120+ allopathic programs but if you have 20 osteopathic programs you find a reason to bitch. I hate to break it to you (nicedreams) but osteopathic medicine is on the rise. It has and will become more popular as the days go on. Did you ever stop to think that maybe osteopathic medicine is growing and becoming more powerful?

Once again, quantity does not equal quality. Growth does not equal power. You can have 100,000 programs, if they are poor in quality and reputation, and accept low-caliber students, the degree becomes worthless.

By the way, it is no coincidence that most people that think this is a good thing are not yet even in school. "I think it's a great idea...now I can get in somewhere! "

Check this out: http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/index.php?itemid=1505#nucleus_cf

My own comment:
People make the argument that more DO schools and more DO graduates will bring more DO exposure. The problem is, the exposure will be negative and not positive, and that is the last thing we need.

One can argue all they want that the same accreditation standards and so forth will be held to "for-profit" schools as "non-profit" schools, but the fact remains and will always remain - "for-profit" schools are viewed in a very negative light, and the presence of one in osteopathic education is of monumental embarrasment and injury to our profession.

From the beginning, DOs have fought an uphill battle to gain recognition and respect, and parity with our allopathic colleagues. This battle continues today, and the decision to expand education with non-university affiliated schools, let alone "for-profit" ones, is an enormous step backward - one that i fear may do irreversable damage to this field.

The first that the majority of Americans hear of osteopathic medicine will likely now be an article about the explosion of new schools, none of which has a respectable university affiliation or adds to the medical fund of knowledge with research, and at least one of which is "for-profit." Truly shameful and frightening.

I would pay today to have my degree changed to an MD.

 

[medhacker]

I would pay today to have my degree changed to an MD.

isn't it possible to quit while at it and reapply MD?

 

[scpod]

I would pay today to have my degree changed to an MD.

Know what? Most patients don't give a flying @#$% about what your degree is. They could care less about DO, MD, or even DVM if they can get treatment when they need it. They don't know what "DO" means and they don't care! They just want the pain to go away and anybody that does that is OK by them. Some people, however, will be a little more choosy when it comes to picking a primary care physician...but not the majority. Do you know what people really want these days? They want great medical care and they don't want to pay an @#$%^&* dime for it. They don't care who gives it to them! They just want medical care and they want it for free!!!

Know what? Even if the overall MCAT drops by a point, the quality of medical care isn't going to get any worse. People have been finishing last in their class at medical school for quite a few years now, but every one of them is still called "doctor". The fact that a few more people might get into medical school may lower the overall scores, but it won't lower the quality of medicine. That is an elitist's argument that simply doesn't hold water.

 

[(nicedream)]

isn't it possible to quit while at it and reapply MD?

And have wasted $100,000 and years of my life? No.

 

[medhacker]

And have wasted $100,000 and years of my life? No.

I thought you said you were willing to pay for the letters...
Back it up nicedream!

 

[DragonWell]

Once again, quantity does not equal quality. Growth does not equal power. You can have 100,000 programs, if they are poor in quality and reputation, and accept low-caliber students, the degree becomes worthless.

Is there any evidence for this contention? Unless you can show the plummeting MCAT scores and increasing malpractice suits due to physician incompetence, you are simply making predictions based on no data. While I see your point, an equally plausible hypothesis is that increased visibility and public awareness of new DO schools will lead to more applicants to choose from and an increase in quality of accepted students and future physicians. Unless you have a crystal ball, only time will conclusively show whether new schools will help or hurt the osteopathic profession.

 

[(nicedream)]

Know what? Most patients don't give a flying @#$% about what your degree is. They could care less about DO, MD, or even DVM if they can get treatment when they need it. They don't know what "DO" means and they don't care! They just want the pain to go away and anybody that does that is OK by them. Some people, however, will be a little more choosy when it comes to picking a primary care physician...but not the majority. Do you know what people really want these days? They want great medical care and they don't want to pay an @#$%^&* dime for it. They don't care who gives it to them! They just want medical care and they want it for free!!!

Know what? Even if the overall MCAT drops by a point, the quality of medical care isn't going to get any worse. People have been finishing last in their class at medical school for quite a few years now, but every one of them is still called "doctor". The fact that a few more people might get into medical school may lower the overall scores, but it won't lower the quality of medicine. That is an elitist's argument that simply doesn't hold water.

I believe that the quality of physicians turned out will indeed decrease - the abilities of people accepted to even the newer schools that are already open is questionable in many cases. Overall MCAT dropping by a point? More like 10 points. Avg allopathic MCAT scores is around 30, the newer DO schools are around 23, wait until 5 more open. While there may be a large enough qualified applicant pool to medical school in general, many of the ones with higher numbers prefer to re-apply to allopathic schools or go to the caribbean over going osteopathic. This expansion and "for-profit" business will only further turn these applicants off.

As far as most patients not caring...well, if you're interested in just treating people that can't afford to be choosy, then that's great. There is certainly a need for that, and they would indeed be happy to be served by you. However, most people with the wherewithal would care about who is treating them, and whether they are qualified.

 

[(nicedream)]

I thought you said you were willing to pay for the letters...
Back it up nicedream!

Hehehe...there's a limit to what I would pay, okay?

 

[(nicedream)]

Is there any evidence for this contention? Unless you can show the plummeting MCAT scores and increasing malpractice suits due to physician incompetence, you are simply making predictions based on no data. While I see your point, an equally plausible hypothesis is that increased visibility and public awareness of new DO schools will lead to more applicants to choose from and an increase in quality of accepted students and future physicians. Unless you have a crystal ball, only time will conclusively show whether new schools will help or hurt the osteopathic profession.

You're right, only time will tell. But we still have opinions and make predictions. I've made mine. However, I don't see how anyone can make the case that a degree from "for-profit" Rocky Mountain College is going to be viewed as the equal of ANY MD.

 

[Jamers]

Thank you for pointing that out, I forgot about VCOM (is it really affiliated with VA tech or not?). There are plenty of med schools (DO and MD) in that area that serve rural Appalachia. It really begs the question, what does opening yet another one at LMU really bring to the table? Appalachia needs doctors, but does it need an additional med school? I think that the solution of more medical schools is ignoring the true problem here.

When I interviewed there the woman put it more as a "close friendship". She stated that the main reason V-Tech was allowing VCOM to even use their land was for research purposes. This was from the mouth of the woman who gave the tour, no clue what her name is anymore, all I know is she had an accent, like..everyone..down there I guess...

 

[scpod]

However, most people with the wherewithal would care about who is treating them, and whether they are qualified.

I've worked part-time in the ER for a while. People who come in there are from ALL socio-economic groups. They do'n't care if it is a MD, DO, PA, NP or or guy who only knows how to give hair cuts. If they can give help, then it doesn't matter. The same goes for most office visits. The majority of people don't visit the doctor unless something is wrong. They don't care who gives them relief as long as someone does. A very small minority of people in the US actually look at their health care giver's schooling before agreeing to be treated. Give them somebody who actually seems to care about their health, and most people will flock to them-- the degree is irrelevant. Patients want people who care-- not people who have high MCATs.

 

[nvshelat]

Whats to say that these DO schools won't look to increase standards as opposed to simply make money by accepting a large class? If it's a growing market, they have to have some sort of value proposition

Also, let's not forget that there are good MD schools and bad MD schools, just as there are good DO schools and bad DO schools. Residency directors, I'm sure, know this and aren't going to treat all DOs the same, just as they wouldn't for MDs. So if residency directors won't care, then why does it matter? It's not like patients actually care.

 

[box29]

...Overall MCAT dropping by a point? More like 10 points. Avg allopathic MCAT scores is around 30, the newer DO schools are around 23, wait until 5 more open. While there may be a large enough qualified applicant pool to medical school in general, many of the ones with higher numbers prefer to re-apply to allopathic schools or go to the caribbean over going osteopathic. ...

As a student who has a position on the admissions committee of a "newer" school, I would like to add my comments that not all of these newer schools are letting "just anyone" in. Touro Nevada, as an example, will NOT interview anyone below a 23 MCAT. The average MCAT for the class of 2009 is 25 and of those who have paid the $2000.00 deposit for the class of 2010 which is 108 students, the average MCAT is 26.

If anything, I DO NOT see a decline in the stats of those applying to Touro Nevada. In fact, I see an increase in the stats. We've had many candidates in the 30+ range with most in the 26-29 range. There are some in the 24-25's as well.

I cannot speak for the other schools but I think it is school dependent as to what standards they will adhere. Additionally, some schools may be more lenient when it comes to numbers when compared to life experiences. I believe that the applicant pool will still be very large compared to the number of available slots. Who knows, we'll see.

 

[(nicedream)]

I've worked part-time in the ER for a while. People who come in there are from ALL socio-economic groups. They do'n't care if it is a MD, DO, PA, NP or or guy who only knows how to give hair cuts. If they can give help, then it doesn't matter. The same goes for most office visits. The majority of people don't visit the doctor unless something is wrong. They don't care who gives them relief as long as someone does. A very small minority of people in the US actually look at their health care giver's schooling before agreeing to be treated. Give them somebody who actually seems to care about their health, and most people will flock to them-- the degree is irrelevant. Patients want people who care-- not people who have high MCATs.

It's not just about whether patients will avoid us or not. It's about the direction the profession is taking, and how it will be viewed as a whole.

 

[Jamers]

Once again, quantity does not equal quality. Growth does not equal power. You can have 100,000 programs, if they are poor in quality and reputation, and accept low-caliber students, the degree becomes worthless.

By the way, it is no coincidence that most people that think this is a good thing are not yet even in school. "I think it's a great idea...now I can get in somewhere! "

Check this out: http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/index.php?itemid=1505#nucleus_cf

My own comment:
People make the argument that more DO schools and more DO graduates will bring more DO exposure. The problem is, the exposure will be negative and not positive, and that is the last thing we need.

One can argue all they want that the same accreditation standards and so forth will be held to "for-profit" schools as "non-profit" schools, but the fact remains and will always remain - "for-profit" schools are viewed in a very negative light, and the presence of one in osteopathic education is of monumental embarrasment and injury to our profession.

From the beginning, DOs have fought an uphill battle to gain recognition and respect, and parity with our allopathic colleagues. This battle continues today, and the decision to expand education with non-university affiliated schools, let alone "for-profit" ones, is an enormous step backward - one that i fear may do irreversable damage to this field.

The first that the majority of Americans hear of osteopathic medicine will likely now be an article about the explosion of new schools, none of which has a respectable university affiliation or adds to the medical fund of knowledge with research, and at least one of which is "for-profit." Truly shameful and frightening.

I would pay today to have my degree changed to an MD.

I don't even know where to begin in this argument. So, I will just begin at this post by you and answer some of your others as I go along. The average MCAT for most schools actually increases with time, not decreases. Schools have become more and more competitive to get into as time has passed. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself and see a trend of upward MCAT scores. Go here for the newest MCAT/osteo school break down:
http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

An example from that page:
Western University of Health Sciences / College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (Pomona, CA) MCAT: 10.00, 9.00, P, 9.00 total= 28

The scores run from that high of 28 to a low of 21.70. While we may not require a 30 MCAT for entrance, this MCAT does reflect back on the osteopathic philosophy; to select well-rounded people. Frankly, I would never have wanted to get into a school based solely on my MCAT score. What does that prove in the end? I can get a 2.8 GPA, do nothing but get a 42 on my MCAT and I get to be a doctor? Well, that is not for me. What about the Caribbean schools that have even lower MCAT requirements? Do you think patients sit there and ask their physician what school he or she attended and what their MCAT score was? No, they see DOCTOR and they start telling them their problems. In addition, have a few Caribbean schools with lower MCAT requirements ruined the face of Allopathic medicine? I submit that it has not.

Another argument you have made over and over again is quantity not being quality. However, I believe that USARMYDOC's response has gone unanswered by you. There are far more allopathic schools than osteopathic. Until we build 500 and allopathic schools are still at 100+, you cannot make the argument of quantity vs. quality. Also, because there are a greater number of allopathic schools, and, using your great argument of lowering MCAT's, that means the average MCAT for allopathic schools should be around 12. It isn't, and that is because they have kept their standards of recruiting the best of people. I have faith that with 32 schools or even 45 schools, the Osteopathic philosophy of selecting well rounded individuals will prevail. We will never have an MCAT as high as allopathic schools, we don't need one. What makes us different and what makes the practice of our philosophy so beautiful is that we are more than a score. The schools will be built and the average MCAT will not suffer. The schools will continue to select people of very well rounded backgrounds and Osteopathic medicine will become better known.

If you are so willing to give up your degree simply because of an announcement proclaiming that a few more schools will be opening up, why did you even go through the process of entering into osteopathic medicine in the first place? Maybe you should take your own advice and look into becoming an M.D., if those two words mean the world to you. In the end, we will all become doctors, M.D./D.O, it doesn't matter. I welcome more D.O.'s into this world to show people exactly what we are all about. I too am concerned with what this may bring to the future of medicine but, I am not, as you seem to be, claiming that the sky is falling simply because a few more schools will open. Only time will tell and all we can do is have faith.

 

[scpod]

It's not just about whether patients will avoid us or not. It's about the direction the profession is taking, and how it will be viewed as a whole.

You have to look at the hard facts:

1) The population of the United States grows every single year. If the number of doctors graduating from medical school does not also grow every single year, then we will eventually not have enough doctors to handle the population of patients.

2) As the population grows, so will the number of potential med students who have 25+ MCAT scores grow.

3) More doctors will be needed to handle the increased population and there are only two ways to increase the number of doctors graduating from medical school-- a) increase the class size of every school, every year (just like inflation). b) increase the number of medical schools.

Increasing the number of medical schools will not decrease the quality of medical care. It's that simple.

 

[(nicedream)]

I don't even know where to begin in this argument. So, I will just begin at this post by you and answer some of your others as I go along. The average MCAT for most schools actually increases with time, not decreases. Schools have become more and more competitive to get into as time has passed. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself and see a trend of upward MCAT scores. Go here for the newest MCAT/osteo school break down:
http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

An example from that page:
Western University of Health Sciences / College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (Pomona, CA) MCAT: 10.00, 9.00, P, 9.00 total= 28

The scores run from that high of 28 to a low of 21.70. While we may not require a 30 MCAT for entrance, this MCAT does reflect back on the osteopathic philosophy; to select well-rounded people. Frankly, I would never have wanted to get into a school based solely on my MCAT score. What does that prove in the end? I can get a 2.8 GPA, do nothing but get a 42 on my MCAT and I get to be a doctor? Well, that is not for me. What about the Caribbean schools that have even lower MCAT requirements? Do you think patients sit there and ask their physician what school he or she attended and what their MCAT score was? No, they see DOCTOR and they start telling them their problems. In addition, have a few Caribbean schools with lower MCAT requirements ruined the face of Allopathic medicine? I submit that it has not.

Another argument you have made over and over again is quantity not being quality. However, I believe that USARMYDOC's response has gone unanswered by you. There are far more allopathic schools than osteopathic. Until we build 500 and allopathic schools are still at 100+, you cannot make the argument of quantity vs. quality. Also, because there are a greater number of allopathic schools, and, using your great argument of lowering MCAT's, that means the average MCAT for allopathic schools should be around 12. It isn't, and that is because they have kept their standards of recruiting the best of people. I have faith that with 32 schools or even 45 schools, the Osteopathic philosophy of selecting well rounded individuals will prevail. We will never have an MCAT as high as allopathic schools, we don't need one. What makes us different and what makes the practice of our philosophy so beautiful is that we are more than a score. The schools will be built and the average MCAT will not suffer. The schools will continue to select people of very well rounded backgrounds and Osteopathic medicine will become better known.

If you are so willing to give up your degree simply because of an announcement proclaiming that a few more schools will be opening up, why did you even go through the process of entering into osteopathic medicine in the first place? Maybe you should take your own advice and look into becoming an M.D., if those two words mean the world to you. In the end, we will all become doctors, M.D./D.O, it doesn't matter. I welcome more D.O.'s into this world to show people exactly what we are all about. I too am concerned with what this may bring to the future of medicine but, I am not, as you seem to be, claiming that the sky is falling simply because a few more schools will open. Only time will tell and all we can do is have faith.

I appreciate your response and thoughts.

You, and some others that have responded to my posts, have selected only one small part of my argument, and that is the point about MCAT scores. Actually, I never even included that as part of my original argument - I only brought up MCAT scores in response to someone else that brought them up.

You claim that osteopathic schools admit people of well-rounded backgrounds as opposed to high scores. I believe this is untrue. Most people in osteopathic schools are people that would go to allopathic schools but could not get in. I know you and many others on here will disagree, but we will have to agree to disagree on that point. The large number of allopathic schools does not lead to low MCAT scores because they have a larger, more qualified applicant pool. As I said in another post, many applicants prefer re-applying to allopathic schools or going to the caribbean over applying to osteopathic schools.

Let me disclose something about myself: I am a student at one of these newer schools. When I made the decision to come here, I defended the opening of new schools on SDN. With the opening of TUCOM-NV, LECOM-FL, and PCOM-GA, many people were up in arms about the inevitable decline of admissions standards, lack of GME, and so forth. I made the argument that more graduates meant more exposure, and that it would be a solution to the lack of recognition.

Now, we are seeing planning for at least 5 more schools, only one of which is affiliated with a current school of medicine, and one of which is for profit. When the 3 started in 2004 and 2005, many defended it by saying "it's only 3 schools, and they are satellites of established colleges" - well, that's no longer the case.

The way to expand and gain recognition is not by granting every John and Jane that has the bucks to open a school the right to do so. THAT is not the way a respected profession operates its education. I would like nothing more than to be able to be proud of my degree and what it represents. However, we are being led down a path that in my mind can lead nowhere but to disdain and inferiority - and it's not just about MCAT scores.

By the way, I'm not even going into the GME issue. That is a whole 'nother matter...

 

[(nicedream)]

You have to look at the hard facts:

1) The population of the United States grows every single year. If the number of doctors graduating from medical school does not also grow every single year, then we will eventually not have enough doctors to handle the population of patients.

2) As the population grows, so will the number of potential med students who have 25+ MCAT scores grow.

3) More doctors will be needed to handle the increased population and there are only two ways to increase the number of doctors graduating from medical school-- a) increase the class size of every school, every year (just like inflation). b) increase the number of medical schools.

Increasing the number of medical schools will not decrease the quality of medical care. It's that simple.

Why can it not be expanded responsibly, through established/respected universities or colleges, and please, for pete's sake, NOT for profit?

 

[DrBowtie]

Is there any total applicant pool data for DO schools like this:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005mcatgpa.htm

 

[Jamers]

I appreciate your response and thoughts.

You, and some others that have responded to my posts, have selected only one small part of my argument, and that is the point about MCAT scores. Actually, I never even included that as part of my original argument - I only brought up MCAT scores in response to someone else that brought them up.

You claim that osteopathic schools admit people of well-rounded backgrounds as opposed to high scores. I believe this is untrue. Most people in osteopathic schools are people that would go to allopathic schools but could not get in. I know you and many others on here will disagree, but we will have to agree to disagree on that point. The large number of allopathic schools does not lead to low MCAT scores because they have a larger, more qualified applicant pool. As I said in another post, many applicants prefer re-applying to allopathic schools or going to the caribbean over applying to osteopathic schools.

Let me disclose something about myself: I am a student at one of these newer schools. When I made the decision to come here, I defended the opening of new schools on SDN. With the opening of TUCOM-NV, LECOM-FL, and PCOM-GA, many people were up in arms about the inevitable decline of admissions standards, lack of GME, and so forth. I made the argument that more graduates meant more exposure, and that it would be a solution to the lack of recognition.

Now, we are seeing planning for at least 5 more schools, only one of which is affiliated with a current school of medicine, and one of which is for profit. When the 3 started in 2004 and 2005, many defended it by saying "it's only 3 schools, and they are satellites of established colleges" - well, that's no longer the case.

The way to expand and gain recognition is not by granting every John and Jane that has the bucks to open a school the right to do so. THAT is not the way a respected profession operates its education. I would like nothing more than to be able to be proud of my degree and what it represents. However, we are being led down a path that in my mind can lead nowhere but to disdain and inferiority - and it's not just about MCAT scores.

By the way, I'm not even going into the GME issue. That is a whole 'nother matter...

I think you are taking this too far being that there are just a few new schools opening. Hell, there are allopathic schools I have never heard of. ****, there are so many SUNYs anymore I think if they named 5 more, no one would care. These are not great schools either. Some allopathic schools are considered near the level of high osteopathic schools. Like I said before, they have 125, we have 32...big difference. I think you also avoided my answer of the foreign medical schools and its impact on allopathic. A good argument can be made that these two situations are alike. You are saying that this "for-profit" school is going to ruin the face of osteopathic medicine. The reason I mentioned MCAT is because I saw that in many of your posts; speaking of a downward trend with every new school named. This isn't going to happen and you need to face that. As for the well roundedness, I believe this is true. It might just be one person, but, I have a low MCAT, high GPA and enough EC's to choke a horse. I am not alone in this. Some of my good friends who are in allopathic schools have a high MCAT, high GPA and it pretty much ends there. Off the subject of MCAT, you have to face the truth: no matter how much you bitch and moan on here, its not going to solve anything. Those schools will be named and we will just have to sit back and see if the sky has fallen. However, before I go, I would like to submit the following. You continue to mention that allopathic schools can have a greater number because they are attached to big named universities. Okay, what about the small undergraduate colleges and universities out there? My own undergraduate is not attached to any large school. We are a "sister" of Notre Dame (basically meaning they don't even know who we are). We fit on one small city block. However, for the past decade or so, we have sent over 5 or so students to medical school each and every year. There are THOUSANDS of small schools like mine that are not attached to big names and we still continue to foster. Why is this? Because of recruiting policies. No matter the number of schools, they will all have to maintain a certain recruiting policy. As for the people who would be more willing to go to foreign schools than osteopathic, show me some proof of this. There are very few foreign schools and, if this was the case, their numbers would continue to grow. The only people who wish to attend FMS are those who care about the letters at the end of their names. The only thing I can say to these people is, more power to you and hope you enjoy fish (or subway if you are going to Ross). I believe there are just as many people out there who are looking to osteopathic medicine as an alternitive (above FMS) as there are people who actually have a love for it. I have no proof of this statement however. The only proof I have is that osteopathic schools continue to expand and I have never heard of anyone getting rejected from a FMS. If it was the case that so many allopathic students were applying to these schools, they would be more selective. If it was also the case that D.O. was considered a third choice, we wouldn't be opening these five new schools. I think the opening of these five new schools will also give us the exposure we need to not be a "second choice" for students. The hard fact is, people are too ignorant to actually look into it. They hear hollistic and start to think of needles and Chi energy. No education about who and what we are brings about the wrong image. An image, however, I believe that more D.O.'s can destory.

 

[scpod]

Why can it not be expanded responsibly, through established/respected universities or colleges, and please, for pete's sake, NOT for profit?

It can be up to a certain point, but so many of those "established/respected" schools pride themselves on their small class size. They don't want bigger classes because they feel that they will harm the quality of the education. They don't believe that bigger is better.

Imagine a small town with only one McDonald's restaurant. What happens when it just gets so busy that they cannot serve the numbers of customers that fill the place? Do they just make it bigger? In some cases they may remodel, but they have come to realize that there is an optimum size. In most cases they just build a new one on the other side of town.

Increasing the current class sizes by a small percentage may be a short term solution, but the only real way to prepare for the future is to build new medical schools.

 

[nvshelat]

I'm with Nicedreams on this one. Sorry.

Since DO schools are easier to get into, they do have some stigma as a "backdoor" way of becoming a doctor. So why perpetuate that stereotype?

IMO, a better solution would be to gradually increase class sizes and raise standards - on the MD side, they haven't been building tons of new Caribbean schools (to my knowledge) bc they know that will lead to less qualified applicants entering the field. Instead, they're increasing their class sizes.

BTW, the well-rounded thing is BS and everyone knows it.

DO schools will be more competitive to get into if there are LESS of them, not more.

 

[(nicedream)]

It can be up to a certain point, but so many of those "established/respected" schools pride themselves on their small class size. They don't want bigger classes because they feel that they will harm the quality of the education. They don't believe that bigger is better.

Imagine a small town with only one McDonald's restaurant. What happens when it just gets so busy that they cannot serve the numbers of customers that fill the place? Do they just make it bigger? In some cases they may remodel, but they have come to realize that there is an optimum size. In most cases they just build a new one on the other side of town.

Increasing the current class sizes by a small percentage may be a short term solution, but the only real way to prepare for the future is to build new medical schools.

I didn't say anything about expanding class sizes. When I said "through established/respected universties or colleges" I meant if they want to build new schools, why don't they put them at some of the many schools around the country that have decent reputations and no medical school as of now, instead of places like Lincoln U or Rocky Mountain U.

Just furthers the view of osteopathic medicine as allopathic's inbred cousin.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I'm with Nicedreams on this one. Sorry.

Since DO schools are easier to get into, they do have some stigma as a "backdoor" way of becoming a doctor. So why perpetuate that stereotype?

IMO, a better solution would be to gradually increase class sizes and raise standards - on the MD side, they haven't been building tons of new Caribbean schools (to my knowledge) bc they know that will lead to less qualified applicants entering the field. Instead, they're increasing their class sizes.

BTW, the well-rounded thing is BS and everyone knows it.

DO schools will be more competitive to get into if there are LESS of them, not more.

Well, how do you know that it won't in the short decrease admissions standards but eventually raise them? People may become more aware of the DO profession and apply, hence, raising admission standards.

 

[(nicedream)]

Well, how do you know that it won't in the short decrease admissions standards but eventually raise them? People may become more aware of the DO profession and apply, hence, raising admission standards.

Again, they'll become aware, but not in a good way.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Again, they'll become aware, but not in a good way.

Yes, they will become aware, but who is to say in not a good way? How do you know it won't raise to awareness and therefore raise applications? More applications will make them more competitive.

 

[NRAI2001]

Well, how do you know that it won't in the short decrease admissions standards but eventually raise them? People may become more aware of the DO profession and apply, hence, raising admission standards.

Good point

 

[Jamers]

Again, they'll become aware, but not in a good way.

The sky is not going to fall because of a few new openings. That is all I have to say to that.

 

[Jamers]

I'm with Nicedreams on this one. Sorry.

Since DO schools are easier to get into, they do have some stigma as a "backdoor" way of becoming a doctor. So why perpetuate that stereotype?

IMO, a better solution would be to gradually increase class sizes and raise standards - on the MD side, they haven't been building tons of new Caribbean schools (to my knowledge) bc they know that will lead to less qualified applicants entering the field. Instead, they're increasing their class sizes.

BTW, the well-rounded thing is BS and everyone knows it.

DO schools will be more competitive to get into if there are LESS of them, not more.

Yep, I guess we all do...

 

[USArmyDoc]

Again, they'll become aware, but not in a good way.

Listen dude, I am not saying your points are wrong or that you are way off base. In fact, I agree with a good amount of what you are saying. If it was up to me, they would stop expanding schools and work on expanding the popularity of DO's in other fashions. Subsequently, this would also raise admissions standards if people are more aware.

With all that being said, you are definitely playing out the "dooms day" scenario. They will produce physicians that are competent.

 

[Jamers]

Listen dude, I am not saying your points are wrong or that you are way off base. In fact, I agree with a good amount of what you are saying. If it was up to me, they would stop expanding schools and work on expanding the popularity of DO's in other fashions. Subsequently, this would also raise admissions standards if people are more aware.

With all that being said, you are definitely playing out the "dooms day" scenario. They will produce physicians that are competent.

I agree . Like I said before, I too am worried about the pace of expansion but I do not think the world is going to end because of it. In the end, there is nothing we can do about it right now. It is going to happen and we are along for the ride, like it or not. Only time will tell, but that is why I must have faith that those in charge are doing the right thing.

 

[theraball]

Those interested in doctor shortages and expansion of medical schools may wish to read the AAMC president's speech from last November. He is advocating a minimum 15% increase in class size to graduate a few thousand new MDs and suggests they should increase even more to offset all the new DOs and FMGs coming in.

I was surprised by some of the things he said, given that AMA is welcoming DOs into their residency programs.

 

[medhacker]

Those interested in doctor shortages and expansion of medical schools may wish to read the AAMC president's speech from last November. He is advocating a minimum 15% increase in class size to graduate a few thousand new MDs and suggests they should increase even more to offset all the new DOs and FMGs coming in.

I was surprised by some of the things he said, given that AMA is welcoming DOs into their residency programs.

Hence, if current projections prove accurate-that our health care system will demand and be able to assimilate many more doctors over the next few decades-we could be facing an unwelcomed reality. When considered against the far more dramatic expansion occurring in the non-LCME world, our modest expansion plans could result in our corner of the medical profession becoming a minority presence.


Interesting...

 

[USArmyDoc]

Definitely interesting.....

On another note, Medhack what the hell do you find so interesting about Hugo Chavez? I can tell you and I are on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

 

[medhacker]

Definitely interesting.....

On another note, Medhack what the hell do you find so interesting about Hugo Chavez? I can tell you and I are on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

haha

Thanks for asking. I used to despise all he stood for out of ignorance and mis-information. My dislike led me to seek the truth about all I knew about him. When I realized my preconceived knowledge was incorrect, I came to wish others who were misinformed as I was would actually learn more about what he is doing, and see the actions of his govnt. for what they really are.

Nothing personal though...

 

[USArmyDoc]

haha

Thanks for asking. I used to despise all he stood for out of ignorance and mis-information. My dislike led me to seek the truth about all I knew about him. When I realized my preconceived knowledge was incorrect, I came to wish others who were misinformed as I was would actually learn more about what he is doing, and see the actions of his govnt. for what they really are.

Nothing personal though...

Uhoh....you are one of those!!

Just kidding....

 

[medhacker]

Uhoh....you are one of those!!

Just kidding....

 

[(nicedream)]

When it comes to osteopathic expansion, I think we only need to ask one question...WWHD?

 

[scpod]

He is advocating a minimum 15% increase in class size to graduate a few thousand new MDs and suggests they should increase even more to offset all the new DOs and FMGs coming in.

Actually, his opinion is 30%. He said that US MD schools could increase 30% and still have an average MCAT score of over 26. He's worried because 2/3 of the MD residencies are going to DO's and FMG's.

I was surprised by some of the things he said, given that AMA is welcoming DOs into their residency programs.

I'm not; this guy is from the AAMC, not AMA. He's the head of an organization that promotes MD schools and residencies in the US. That's ALL they do.

The thing that really gets me, though, is that the head of the AAMC doesn't seem to have a problem with increasing the capacity of MD schools and lowering the average MCAT to 26. Oh noooooooo! There are DO schools currently with higher averages than that.