Nontrads over 28 yo.. why not PA?

[BennieBlanco]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BennieBlanco]

.

 

[ohio23]

Hey mods anyway you can delete all the religious ramblings killing this thread or at least move the hijacked posts to the general forum?

 

[scurred09]

Thank you.

Hey mods anyway you can delete all the religious ramblings killing this thread or at least move the hijacked posts to the general forum?

 

[dragonfly99]

Those are all legitimate reasons. It would be nice to be a part of Doctors w/o Borders. Good luck to you. You seem very focused.

There are PA's and nurses who volunteer with groups like Doctors Without Borders and all those similar type organizations. In fact, a PA or nurse practitioner who has experience doing things in the 3rd World and knows a lot of procedures, like putting in IV's and sewing up cuts, etc. would be more useful than me (internal medicine MD fellow) in my opinion. Not that I'm trying to discourage anyone from going to med school

IMHO the best specialties for someone who wants to volunteer abroad would be either ER, family practice or pediatrics, with ob/gyn being a close 4th.

 

[atomi]

-

 

[Lacheln]

Oh lord, I never get sucked into those discussions, I blame it on the goslings. I want credit for typing it out on an iPhone keyboard on a pitching boat though!

 

[ChandutheMagici]

I want credit for typing it out on an iPhone keyboard on a pitching boat though!

You did that on an iPhone? Kudos my friend, kudos.

 

[Lacheln]

You did that on an iPhone? Kudos my friend, kudos.

Haha, thank you, thank you. Go go ninja fingers!

 

[BennieBlanco]

meant to delete post, accidentally posted

 

[Laurenb]

There are PA's and nurses who volunteer with groups like Doctors Without Borders and all those similar type organizations. In fact, a PA or nurse practitioner who has experience doing things in the 3rd World and knows a lot of procedures, like putting in IV's and sewing up cuts, etc. would be more useful than me (internal medicine MD fellow) in my opinion. Not that I'm trying to discourage anyone from going to med school

IMHO the best specialties for someone who wants to volunteer abroad would be either ER, family practice or pediatrics, with ob/gyn being a close 4th.

Of course there are Pas and NPs with Doctors without Borders. And their help and support is so needed!
But I think you missed my point. I'd also like to open a clinic to serve an under served population, plenty of RNs, PAs and NPs work there too along with LPNs and CNAs and housekeepers. Each person plays a critical role.
It's not that I want to participate in *some* way with a clinic or Doctors without Borders it's the kind of role I want to play within those arenas that brings me to pursue MD.

 

[deleted6669]

Of course there are Pas and NPs with Doctors without Borders. And their help and support is so needed!
But I think you missed my point. I'd also like to open a clinic to serve an under served population, plenty of RNs, PAs and NPs work there too along with LPNs and CNAs and housekeepers. Each person plays a critical role.
It's not that I want to participate in *some* way with a clinic or Doctors without Borders it's the kind of role I want to play within those arenas that brings me to pursue MD.

just to add some fuel to the fire- in many states np's and pa's can open their own clinics. the pa's need to hire a physician partner to meet the min legal requirement for supervision. this often means the doc is never present at the practice and only reviews a few charts a month or in some states the doc must be present a min #of hrs/week like 4-8.
I just returned from a medical trip to Haiti. in addition to the the support staff we had 4 providers; 2 docs, 1 pa(me), and 1 np. we all did exactly the same things and had the same share of critical patients which we managed independently.
in the grand scheme of things an md/do will open more doors for you and it will be easier to pursue certain activities but if you are motivated you can do these things as a pa/np as well.

 

[Laurenb]

just to add some fuel to the fire- in many states np's and pa's can open their own clinics. the pa's need to hire a physician partner to meet the min legal requirement for supervision. this often means the doc is never present at the practice and only reviews a few charts a month or in some states the doc must be present a min #of hrs/week like 4-8.
I just returned from a medical trip to Haiti. in addition to the the support staff we had 4 providers; 2 docs, 1 pa(me), and 1 np. we all did exactly the same things and had the same share of critical patients which we managed independently.
in the grand scheme of things an md/do will open more doors for you and it will be easier to pursue certain activities but if you are motivated you can do these things as a pa/np as well.

I agree with you 100%

 

[unsung]

In many cases the role model you become when you complete your goals, and the happier person you are when you are doing what you like offsets being around a few hours more. There are crummy parents out there who are around the child 24/7. Those kids don't come out of it any better.

I would like to personally attest to the fact that my mom pursued her education while I was growing up, and while it meant I had slightly less time from her, I have always admired her for pursuing her dreams. It has in turn inspired my own drive and ambition.

If I had watched her "settle" or give up on herself and just continue on at her min wage job, I think I would be a different person. She would have had more time for me as a child. But guess what? Children grow up. And for me personally, having a parent who is an inspiration means more to me than having a parent who spent every afternoon with me.

Side note: It's perfectly fine to select PA over med school if medicine as a profession isn't THAT appealing in the first place. That's different from choosing PA due to fears of affecting the children negatively through attending med school!

 

[scurred09]

You are wise my friend. Good luck with Medical School.

I would like to personally attest to the fact that my mom pursued her education while I was growing up, and while it meant I had slightly less time from her, I have always admired her for pursuing her dreams. It has in turn inspired my own drive and ambition.

If I had watched her "settle" or give up on herself and just continue on at her min wage job, I think I would be a different person. She would have had more time for me as a child. But guess what? Children grow up. And for me personally, having a parent who is an inspiration means more to me than having a parent who spent every afternoon with me.

Side note: It's perfectly fine to select PA over med school if medicine as a profession isn't THAT appealing in the first place. That's different from choosing PA due to fears of affecting the children negatively through attending med school!

 

[Temple2013]

I applied in my early 30s this year and got in. I don't see what age has to do with it. I don't want to be in primary care, didn't even know what a PA is until a few months ago reading about it on this site.

 

[COMedic2Doc]

Ok so to answer the question here, and agreeing full heartedly with the discussions that have already been mentioned. First, my age doesn't define my dreams, at least not to me. My dream is to become a Trauma Surgeon, and that is as simple as that. Second, I currently work at a level that is extremely close to the PA level without the knowledge base beyond my years of experience in Emergency Medicine and Critical Care Medicine, which quite honestly has left me thirsting for more knowledge and more responsibility which I believe will only be achieved by becoming a Physician (DO specifically). Having said this, I will be 30 in a few months and will still be deployed. When I return home next December (according to my current goals), I will be 31 with still one year left of finishing my Undergrad Sciences due to not being able to take the more advanced courses online and then applying to Medical School. My motto has truly become Medical School or bust, unless something really changes my mind otherwise. I believe that I now have the experience to define myself quite well to the admissions committees that I believe that I will get interviews with. Could I be satisfied with the Surgical PA route, probably not. Would the Surgical PA route be easier on a future family life, possibly. Nonetheless, becoming a Surgeon has become my ultimate dream and my ultimate quest. I hope this helps with the OPs original question, and look forward to reading more replies on this topic.

 

[scurred09]

You are very lucky because you have already made your decision to be a Physician. I for example, toss and turn between the PA vs. MD for the past 3 years. I could be making $90+ at 32 as a PA or $150+ at 40 as a Physician. It's the economic/financial factor that makes PA that much more appealing to me. But I crave the knowledge of a BC Physician and would feel incomplete as a PA. Then I factor other reasons why PA would make more sense: more time to date, more time outside of work, less debt, and still make great money at 32 y/o. It sucks and I know that it's up to me to make this decision. Sometime I just wish I never thought of Medicine as a career.

Ok so to answer the question here, and agreeing full heartedly with the discussions that have already been mentioned. First, my age doesn't define my dreams, at least not to me. My dream is to become a Trauma Surgeon, and that is as simple as that. Second, I currently work at a level that is extremely close to the PA level without the knowledge base beyond my years of experience in Emergency Medicine and Critical Care Medicine, which quite honestly has left me thirsting for more knowledge and more responsibility which I believe will only be achieved by becoming a Physician (DO specifically). Having said this, I will be 30 in a few months and will still be deployed. When I return home next December (according to my current goals), I will be 31 with still one year left of finishing my Undergrad Sciences due to not being able to take the more advanced courses online and then applying to Medical School. My motto has truly become Medical School or bust, unless something really changes my mind otherwise. I believe that I now have the experience to define myself quite well to the admissions committees that I believe that I will get interviews with. Could I be satisfied with the Surgical PA route, probably not. Would the Surgical PA route be easier on a future family life, possibly. Nonetheless, becoming a Surgeon has become my ultimate dream and my ultimate quest. I hope this helps with the OPs original question, and look forward to reading more replies on this topic.

 

[medic22md]

I am 29 and entering med school this fall. I was a firefighter/paramedic for 7 years and knew after my first day of being on a box that I wanted to be a physician. I mainly had to build up the means to do so. PA would be like being a paramedic again with a little more leeway. It mainly comes down to I want to be my on boss with limited protocols to follow. I also would like to be in a position to help advance prehospital care. Which is not able to be done as a PA.

 

[RevGood]

My salary as a PA: ~85,000 plus benefits.

Sign me up.

I'm currently a youth pastor (that's worse than mid-level) and I have been thinking about a career change for the last two years. Medicine has always been something I have been very interested in. I thought about becoming a doctor, but don't have the $$, the time (I'm 35) or the emotional stamina to ruin my marriage and not see my kid grow up.

Kudos to you all who have that desire. I'll be someone's bitch-slapped, 85 grand a year (I make 23 grand currently), mid-level scut-monkey any day of the week to pursue medicine.

 

[RevGood]

So, anyone point me in the right direction to become a PA/NP?

Thanks.

 

[theswordfish]

For the 'i want to be the best' arguement..not all doctors are 'the best'..

I've been thinking about pa/np vs dr too and I feel like I could be the 'best PA/np' or at least a terrific one but it would be a much bigger stretch to be the 'best doctor'..

thoughts?

 

[deleted6669]

So, anyone point me in the right direction to become a PA/NP?

Thanks.

www.aapa.org
www.physicianassistantforum.com

 

[RevGood]

www.aapa.org
www.physicianassistantforum.com

Thanks!

 

[ModyzMalak]

I'll be 31 on my second day of Orientation.... Happy Birthday to me eh?

Being a PA wasn't discouraging, but being a full-blown Physician... being an absolute expert in something... that's sexy to me (not in a shallow way, but in an intellectually stimulating, life fulfilling way).

Love that clarification . And I completely agree with that statement

 

[ModyzMalak]

well, thats another thing. going to medical school and becoming a doctor was never my "life dream". i had a bio degree and high grades, so med school was a consideration. but i still dont understand all the fantasizing that goes on here about going to med school and becoming a physician. sure its a fine career. but its also a really lengthy, costly pathway and a difficult job afterwards with alot of BS to deal with. why dream about something like that?

o yes, because you will be saving the lives of others and really making a difference in the world. please.....

Wow sometimes I hear myself thinking that in the back of my head...
But you said it not me!

 

[2pac Fan]

I am a non-trad under 30 that is starting to debate whether or not to change my career. While this might not count because I am debating whether to try to become a MD. My reason for not considering PA. I already make more than PAs. I would be comfortable on a PA salary, but can't live the way I want on that. If I switch, I at least want to switch to something with the same earning potential as I enjoy. Plus I enjoy stress and the buck stopping with me, don't know if I could get that as a PA.

 

[GH253]

I was just wondering why the nontrads over 28 yo chooses to go MD/DO and not PA? I want to know your story, your reason for pursuing MD/DO. Are you not worried about the opportunity cost of becoming a doc versus a PA? What is it about a PA that discourages you? Please share your thoughts, pros and cons of why you are so sure of MD/DO.. Thanks.

PAs have no autonomy, cannot run their own practices. I have ideological differences with most doctors and would have a hard time practicing under someone else, depending on the specialty.

 

[fromrntomd]

Kudos to you all who have that desire. I'll be someone's bitch-slapped, 85 grand a year (I make 23 grand currently), mid-level scut-monkey any day of the week to pursue medicine.

Youth pastor? Really?

Well anyway, good luck with your new career pursuits.

 

[deleted6669]

PAs have no autonomy, cannot run their own practices. I have ideological differences with most doctors and would have a hard time practicing under someone else, depending on the specialty.

really depends on the state. in many states a pa can own/run a practice and hire a supervising md as their employee. in many of these states the md only needs to do chart review and doesn't ever need to be on site. other states require an md on site x # of hrs/mo.
as far as autonomy, many states allow pa's to staff emergency depts solo. I do it several times/mo. anyone too sick for my small( 11 bed) facility I stabilize and transfer, everyone else I treat and send home. I see traumas, mi's, cva's run codes, intubate, cardiovert, etc, etc.
we schedule docs and pa's interchangeably and cover for each other for illness, vacations, etc
we have a pa there 24/7 and a doc on day shift only. as above if a doc is sick or unable to cover a given shift a pa does the "doc" day shift as double coverage with another pa.
the state does not require chart review but the hospital does, so all charts are reviewed within 48 hrs by an md.
in this position I make as much as a typical fp pcp.

 

[deleted6669]

I already make more than PAs. I would be comfortable on a PA salary, but can't live the way I want on that. If I switch, I at least want to switch to something with the same earning potential as I enjoy. Plus I enjoy stress and the buck stopping with me, don't know if I could get that as a PA.

see my post above re: autonomy and salary. many specialty pa's make > 100k.

 

[2pac Fan]

see my post above re: autonomy and salary. many specialty pa's make > 100k.

Only 1 that I have met makes more than 100k. Interesting about the autonomy.

How many make 140 - 300k? Link to survey? Every salary survey I have seen has the median and average around 90k for PA's. I am not there yet, but not to far either. Don't get me wrong 90k is a very comfortable living in most of the cities in the United States, and is nothing in others.

I also see a bubble in healthcare, and see salaries going down, especially for nurses (more than people complain about how much doctors used to make 20 years ago)

I still think of the PA stuff, the other thing is talking to some of them and what they do, the emergancy room ones I have talked to said it comes to the good stuff, doctors step in. Your post seems to not imply that though, how long did you work before your responsibility level became what it is now?

 

[elderjack21]

PAs provide a valuable service for our nation's healthcare and will play an even larger role in the future. I have met a couple in a Family Medicine practice that make over 100K a year. That said, they basically do the same thing as the family practice doctor that they work with. Only difference is he makes about 5 times as much as them since it is his practice. Although money shouldn't be the only factor in your decision to take the responsiblity and extra duty that comes with being a physician, why work for a fraction of the pay if you are going to do the same amount of work?

 

[deleted6669]

Only 1 that I have met makes more than 100k. Interesting about the autonomy.
I still think of the PA stuff, the other thing is talking to some of them and what they do, the emergancy room ones I have talked to said it comes to the good stuff, doctors step in. Your post seems to not imply that though, how long did you work before your responsibility level became what it is now?

probably 10% of pa's make > 100k/yr, most of these in em/surgery/ortho.
in my em group of 15 pa's the salary range is 110k(for 10 days/mo) to 200k(that guy works lots of overtime). avg for the group is around 130k for 15 days/mo. keep in mind my group does not hire new grads and the avg pa in the group has been out of school for at least 10 yrs.
I was an er tech for 5 years then a paramedic for 5 yrs before pa school and worked for 5 yrs as an em pa before ever working solo. now about 1/2 of my shifts are solo, a few are rural, and around 40% are at busy level 1 and 2 trauma ctrs( I have 5 different jobs with total hrs of 180/mo).
here is a link to an em pa position that pays 135k/yr:
http://www.sempa.org/jobDetail.asp?jobID=486

and one that pays $158,451...and takes new grads....
http://www.physicianassistantjobs.n...ice-opportunity-primary-care-specialties.html
so you might need to travel a bit.....to afghanistan.....

I have actually considered this one(speaking of travel...see last 2 jobs at bottom of page)
http://www.rayjobs.com/index.cfm?NavID=103

and this one(second job from the bottom of the page):
http://www.rayjobs.com/index.cfm?NavID=103


salary avgs for pa's by specialty in 2008: (note full time = > 32 hrs/week)
http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/Article/PA-Salaries-by-Specialty-2008-2009-2.aspx

keep in mind that the above are avgs so for every guy making 80 k there is another making 120k if the avg is 100k.

 

[2pac Fan]

PAs provide a valuable service for our nation's healthcare and will play an even larger role in the future. I have met a couple in a Family Medicine practice that make over 100K a year. That said, they basically do the same thing as the family practice doctor that they work with. Only difference is he makes about 5 times as much as them since it is his practice. Although money shouldn't be the only factor in your decision to take the responsiblity and extra duty that comes with being a physician, why work for a fraction of the pay if you are going to do the same amount of work?

Money is not my motivation for being interested in becoming a physician. My motivation is doing something that makes me feel like I did something maybe affect someones life in a positive way, really just looking for a larger sense of accomplishment, or come home knowing some work I did that day helped someone rather than a corporation. Salary is to match what I make now, I finally reached a point where I feel comfortable financially, and don't want to take a step back.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

All of you may be referring to this, but I want to be the best *I* can be - not the best in my field.

 

[n3xa]

I was a research scientist (Ph.D in Biochemistry) before medical school with rank of Assistant Professor in a tenure track. I enjoyed the intellectual work of research and teaching in an exciting environment. I applied to medical school (six schools) at age 45 thinking that I probably wouldn't get in but I would give it a shot and see what happened. I got into all six and received a full-ride scholarship. Now, I am a physician/research scientist/professor with a great job back in my tenure-track position with more options. I have no debt, part owner of my own plane, have my own estate (90 acres), writing most of healthcare policy in my state and loving every second of what I do. PA just would not have worked for me.

What an inspiration.

Thank you.

 

[rangerdad]

This has been a big debate between my wife an I. Non-trad, 10+ yrs in the military for both. She wants to become a PA and I want to be a MD. Why? For her she does not want to be in charge just enjoys patient care and have a job. Me- I think if I invest two more years to be at the top of the medical field, and be my own boss why not?
At the end I think is just about personality and career ambitions.

 

[southpawcannon]

A little late joining this thread but here's my piece...

I'll be 34 in a couple of weeks. I've had many experiences that have helped me confirm I will apply MD/DO and not PA. Many of those reasons are similar to why others here chose the same path(didn't read entirely, but autonomy, confidnence in myself I can make final decision in best interest of patient, further knowledge and skill, etc.). As an Athletic Trainer, I learned our scope varies state-to-state. In Georgia, ATCs can do work much like PTAs in the clinic and work as a physician extender in an ortho setting, in addition to outreach coverage, collegiate and professional level sports medicine. Yet in Alabama, the ATC cannot do clinic work; only high school outreach or collegiate and pro level sports medicine. I learned from this experience that I didn't want to be limited in my scope of practice just because of the state I lived in. I also learned in regards to NP and PA, your role not only varies state to state but even from one clinical setting to another in the same city. In the end, they are only allowed to do what the supervising physician or hospital allows them to do. As a physician, you are allowed to use all knowledge and skill acquired in school and training to help your patient.

 

[theseeker4]

This has been a big debate between my wife an I. Non-trad, 10+ yrs in the military for both. She wants to become a PA and I want to be a MD. Why? For her she does not want to be in charge just enjoys patient care and have a job. Me- I think if I invest two more years to be at the top of the medical field, and be my own boss why not?
At the end I think is just about personality and career ambitions.

Well to be fair, it is not 2 more years, it is 5 more years than it takes to become a PA, assuming you go into a specialty with the shortest residency. I agree that the extra time and money needed to invest is worth the opportunity to be at the "top" of the patient care team.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's pretty simple. If you're a PA it closes a lot of doors to you. Speaking about products or drugs at conferences? Off the table. Being a part-time medical director? Nope. Being a full member of a medical group or partnership? Can't do it. Open an urgent care or outpatient surgical center? Sorry bud, you ain't get the credentials or the cash to pull in that level of investment capital. You've also got a more limited set of knowledge, less income, and less autonomy in most practice settings. Not to mention you're even lower on the employee scale and carry less clout when it comes to everything from setting policy to being disciplined.

 

[deleted92121]

I am applying PA first, then MD/DO if I don't get in.

Hard choice for me but I know what I want from a career. Either profession has the opportunity to provide that. Best thing I ever did was work for 10 years as a paramedic both in the field and in a level II trauma center. I have seen enough to know that both professions have their +/-

Guess we will find out

 

[jl lin]

500 clinical hours is nothing. An internal medicine resident on the day he graduates probably has 15,000 clinical hours or 30 times what you have.

Just giving you a little perspective.

As for being a nurse...that's cool. I like and respect nurses but a nursing degree and 500 clinical hours just makes you a nurse with 500 clinical hours.

I'm just gonna jump in and say, back in the day I sat for the CCRN, the requirement was for at least 1800 clinical hours in intensive care. Luckily I had more than that and did well on it. I'm just saying that I concur that 500 hours is very little required clinical time.

Good luck to you southern girl. NO one is saying NPs and PAs are nothing. It's so not true.

At the same time, I have complex family members and even pt/clients that need to see experienced physicians--and they need to be the ones managing these complex patients. I'm sorry. Worked, seen it, done it.
See one of my more recent posts in the family practice forum. There is just too much than can be missed. For the complex patients, sorry, PA or NP is not going to cut it for me. I have a ton of stories as to why.

The process of education and application/clinical experience is much better for physicians, overall. There may be some exceptions--people with a lot of prior acute/intensive care experience; but there is a reason residencies/fellowships are what they are.

 

[jl lin]

And, as someone who was a PA, I can say that I did not fully realize all that I DID NOT know until I went to medical school.
The shear volume we undertake as med students is amazing. This is why the buck stops with us most times, because we have the depth of knowledge.

I fully respect PA's and hope to continue to work in partnership in the future. I just realized that for me, I would never be fully content.

Good luck to everyone, no matter what path you chose.

And that does not include the rigors of residency and possibly fellowship. In a good program, that's where it starts to come together--the hours, experience, and vetting of residency, in order to even begin to "get" application.

It's simple. Midlevel Practice was never meant to be, nor should it be equivalent to the rigors of medical training in the US. That's the reality. It doesn't mean someone didn't work darn hard to become a midlevel practitioner. It doesn't mean they are not good or great at what they do. It just means there is a line of delineation for some pretty strong reasons.

 

[rangerdad]

Well to be fair, it is not 2 more years, it is 5 more years than it takes to become a PA, assuming you go into a specialty with the shortest residency. I agree that the extra time and money needed to invest is worth the opportunity to be at the "top" of the patient care team.

True!