Official 2016 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread

[DuskPhilosophy]

LGBT mental health; +/- future time in academia.

I feel like Emory might have everything you're looking for. They do a lot of work with the HIV psych population and i believe they were in the process of starting an academic medicine track. I really enjoyed my interview at emory and just wish it wasn't so far from home.

For UCSD, they lack any forensics elective at this time but you have the opportunity to moonlight at the jail 3rd year.

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[Rogue Penguin]

I feel like Emory might have everything you're looking for. They do a lot of work with the HIV psych population and i believe they were in the process of starting an academic medicine track. I really enjoyed my interview at emory and just wish it wasn't so far from home.

For UCSD, they lack any forensics elective at this time but you have the opportunity to moonlight at the jail 3rd year.

Yeah, it's a shame about UCSD. San Diego was beautiful. They sort of indicated that I could make an opportunity in forensics for myself if I came there, but Idk. It's also very far from home.

I really liked Emory too. I expect it will probably be in my top 3 somewhere. I'm having a hard time deciding what my exact order should be. Harvard South Shore's PD indicated that she could possibly make a forensics elective for me at the state hospital in Worcester. I was impressed by that.

 

[SartoriousMeansTailor]

...I'm interested in research; forensics; LGBT mental health; +/- future time in academia. I could see myself going for a fellowship in Forensics (more likely) or Child. I favor more cohesive programs where the residents are both engaged in work and friendly to each other. I'd like to live in a larger, more liberal city with culture and outdoor rec opportunities nearby. I only know 3 people who live west of the Mississippi, and they're all residents in California.

I could put in a plug for Case Western. Great forensics experiences (and child too). Seemed pretty cohesive to me. Not a huge city, but plenty to do with outdoor activities as well.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

hate to tell you but some PD saying they could possibly do something is pretty meaningless, I wouldn't consider it at all in your decision making.

For forensics the most important thing is you get a good broad training in clinical psychiatrist, as a good forensic psychiatrist is an excellent clinical psychiatrist. For fellowships this is the #1 thing they will be looking at, not how much forensic exposure you have had. Case obviously has the most highly regarded forensic fellowship and they have a lot of exposure to forensics in the general residency program. however phil resnick is supposed to be retiring next year and they lost a lot of their forensic psychiatrists a few years ago. Cincinnati also is well regarded for forensics and should provide a good broad training in general psychiatry. UMass provides probably the best training in neuropsychiatry of any general psychiatry program in the country. It has a strong forensics department and close affiliation with Bridgewater state. They have just lost Deb Pinals to Michigan but I think she has only been more peripherally involved in the program in recent years anyway. Emory I personally didn't rank (this was a few years back) but they do have a decent forensics program. Peter Ash is a child forensics guy and is very well known in the field. UVA I don't know any of the forensic psychiatrists there but they have a very well established law and psychiatry program and do a ton of research and some big name people like richard bonnie. Monte I don't know much about their general residency program though it seems kinda cush and they have good benefits and pay better than alot of the NYC programs, they have lots of money supposedly whenever a rich jew dies they donate their money there, very psychodynamically oriented. AECOM does have a good forensics fellowship particularly if you're interested in corrections and community forensics, Merill Rotter is the fellowship director and has been around for years.

The sneering about Southshore is really just elitist crap because it isn't in the same league as the other harvard affiliated residency programs and it was probably a terrible program 10 years ago. also the location makes it less competitive. But there are no harvard programs because harvard doesn't have any hospitals, they are just affiliates and the reputation of most of the affiliated hospitals stands strong without any harvard affiliation. and if you do care about that sort of thing you could just mislead people as many do and say you trained at harvard. I think south shore is probably a decent program actually - the VA is a great place to train. they do seem to have less diversity in sites than they did a few years ago though. the main drawback of a VA heavy residency is that you aren't going to get as good training in psychodynamic psychotherapy but you should have plenty of opportunities to learn CBT, run groups, and some other evidence-based practices. harvard has a psychiatry and law program and they will provide you mentorship and get you involved in stuff and writing papers and the like to make you competitive for a good forensics you just need to introduce yourself to tom gutheil or harold bursztajn.

Thanks, I'd rather hear things I might not like than just be wrong. When I visited U Mass, their Chair was claiming to have the best Forensics fellowship in the country. People often tell me that "residents never testify at Case". I definitely did get the impression that Case has more forensics stuff in didactics and otherwise. I think I've been unfairly biased against Case ever since their resident forgot to pick me up for the dinner. :/

You seem very knowledgeable about the different residencies and fellowships in general, Splik. How do you get your information? Is there somewhere I could be looking to get more details on my own? Also, if you don't mind sharing, I'm also curious about what kept you from ranking Emory?

 

[WingedOx]

cleveland is reason enough to be biased against Case also i'm not sure the strength of the forensics program is enough of a reason to go there for general training they do seem to have problems.

i just know alot of people in a lot different departments but that doesn't necessarily translate as to knowing what being a resident there is like.
As for emory there were a few things but this was some years ago not sure how it might be different 1) they work much harder than I would have liked 2) they seemed kinda cheap 3) they are very restrictive about vacation - only 1 whole week every 6 months which would have been a deal breaker as i like to take 2-3 weeks off at a time 4) fairly inflexible in terms of electives etc. also i don't think i would have liked living in the south but that's obviously not an issue for you!

ya know, @splik I do wish my old program would get talked about on these forums more just so I could hear you give your opinion about it.

 

[eli20]

cleveland is reason enough to be biased against Case also i'm not sure the strength of the forensics program is enough of a reason to go there for general training they do seem to have problems.

i just know alot of people in a lot different departments but that doesn't necessarily translate as to knowing what being a resident there is like.
As for emory there were a few things but this was some years ago not sure how it might be different 1) they work much harder than I would have liked 2) they seemed kinda cheap 3) they are very restrictive about vacation - only 1 whole week every 6 months which would have been a deal breaker as i like to take 2-3 weeks off at a time 4) fairly inflexible in terms of electives etc. also i don't think i would have liked living in the south but that's obviously not an issue for you!

This reminds me of a place I visited that had assigned vacation for intern year because "otherwise interns end up not taking it..."

 

[neolandrover]

I could use some help with my top 3. I have posted what I thought about each program below - would be nice if more seasoned veterans could weigh in on if my insights are correct. My interests (subject to change) are private practice outpatient (children and adults) as well as brain stimulation (ECT/TMS) part time.

In no particular order:
1. UNC - strong child fellowship and decent brain stimulation opportunities, unsure if there are big names like the other two programs
Culture/feel: service heavy especially intern year, PGY-2 is all outpatient, so it gets easier soon after, program and residents probably more intense than MUSC

2. MUSC - child fellowship less well known than the other two? Mark George/TMS and actually has an unaccredited brain stim fellowship.
Culture/feel: more laidback feel among residents, night float in PGY-1/2 means workload is more spread out

3. Emory - don't know how their child fellowship is. Obviously people like Helen Mayberg mean brain stim is strong
Culture/feel: intern year is lighter, PGY-2 is heavy, more diversity in population and residents, residents and program probably on the more intense side

My dilemma is that I feel my personality fits better at MUSC (I'm more casual and laidback). However, I don't know how I feel about being a single, non-white/non-black person in Charleston. Plus, considering the saturation, it would be a short term move anyway. UNC and Emory are decent fits, in cities where it's much easier to be a minority. Any thoughts?

 

[Monocles]

That's what I tell myself.
Harvard South Shore (currently my first choice)

Me too! I hope we end up there as co-residents!

 

[J ROD]

I could use some help with my top 3. I have posted what I thought about each program below - would be nice if more seasoned veterans could weigh in on if my insights are correct. My interests (subject to change) are private practice outpatient (children and adults) as well as brain stimulation (ECT/TMS) part time.

In no particular order:
1. UNC - strong child fellowship and decent brain stimulation opportunities, unsure if there are big names like the other two programs
Culture/feel: service heavy especially intern year, PGY-2 is all outpatient, so it gets easier soon after, program and residents probably more intense than MUSC

2. MUSC - child fellowship less well known than the other two? Mark George/TMS and actually has an unaccredited brain stim fellowship.
Culture/feel: more laidback feel among residents, night float in PGY-1/2 means workload is more spread out

3. Emory - don't know how their child fellowship is. Obviously people like Helen Mayberg mean brain stim is strong
Culture/feel: intern year is lighter, PGY-2 is heavy, more diversity in population and residents, residents and program probably on the more intense side

My dilemma is that I feel my personality fits better at MUSC (I'm more casual and laidback). However, I don't know how I feel about being a single, non-white/non-black person in Charleston. Plus, considering the saturation, it would be a short term move anyway. UNC and Emory are decent fits, in cities where it's much easier to be a minority. Any thoughts?

I have no clue about C/A Psy. Not my area. But, one thing to think about is traffic and the area. MUSC is right on the coast if you like that. Emory is a big ass city ATL.

Personally, I like UNC better than MUSC. Didnt take a look at Emory because of ATL traffic.

All 3 have strong names.

 

[lockian]

This is me right now, in no particular order:

WashU in St. Louis
Colorado
U of Arizona-Tucson (a little too VA heavy?)
U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
UIC-Chicago
New Mexico
Minnesota
Baylor

I interviewed at a lot more for those who've been following my posts on here, but these are my favorites.

So my considerations are:
1) I am interested in the underserved, though this may change. Let's assume I don't really know what I want to do with my life.
2) The Southwest is my favorite location, and where I'd like to be long term. I love cacti and would be really happy to never see snow again.
3) I don't really need a happenin' city, though I prefer someplace bigger than a college town.

 

[clausewitz2]

This is me right now, in no particular order:

WashU in St. Louis
Colorado
U of Arizona-Tucson (a little too VA heavy?)
U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
UIC-Chicago
New Mexico
Minnesota
Baylor

I interviewed at a lot more for those who've been following my posts on here, but these are my favorites.

So my considerations are:
1) I am interested in the underserved, though this may change. Let's assume I don't really know what I want to do with my life.
2) The Southwest is my favorite location, and where I'd like to be long term. I love cacti and would be really happy to never see snow again.
3) I don't really need a happenin' city, though I prefer someplace bigger than a college town.

You're gonna see some snow in Albuquerque. I have very vivid memories of being unable to leave the city a few years back because giant flashing signs on the way out of town advised that "INTERSTATE CLOSED DUE TO SNOW, SEEK LOCAL ACCOMODATION". Granted this is more of a problem on the higher elevations just outside ABQ than down by the Rio Grande, but it can be genuinely cold.

 

[lockian]

You're gonna see some snow in Albuquerque. I have very vivid memories of being unable to leave the city a few years back because giant flashing signs on the way out of town advised that "INTERSTATE CLOSED DUE TO SNOW, SEEK LOCAL ACCOMODATION". Granted this is more of a problem on the higher elevations just outside ABQ than down by the Rio Grande, but it can be genuinely cold.

Oh, trust me, I've seen snow in ABQ -- it was there on my interview day. (Holla back anyone else who was there that day? They'd gotten a big snowfall the night before.) However, I was led to believe this is a relatively uncommon occurrence, and at any rate, I'm in the upper midwest right now, so all things are relative.

 

[splik]

btw it is much better if you actually put a list in order of what your thinking. and then discuss points of concern etc. we can give much better advice in that way. certainly you shouldn't be ranking based on how random people on the internet are telling you to. this isn't like other specialties where the prestige of programs etc matters a lot more.

This works best where you say "I really liked x program but was concerned about y" and then we can confirm or assuage your fears, or "I really liked x program but not sure whether to rank this or program y no 1 based on....a, b, and c."

 

[lilek22]

Just based on program reputation, is UVA or UTSW better regarded? I think we'd be happier living in Charlottesville but I liked UTSW better. I'm pretty sure I hate dallas though and would move out asap

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Just based on program reputation, is UVA or UTSW better regarded? I think we'd be happier living in Charlottesville but I liked UTSW better. I'm pretty sure I hate dallas though and would move out asap

UTSW without question. UTSW has big names like Carol Tamminga and Carol North and is one of the best programs in the South. Eric Nestler was the previous chair. UVA isn't considered that relevant in relation to its midatlantic/southern coastal neighbors (UNC, Duke, MUSC, Hopkins). The former chair (now at Maryland) was highly suspect and took a lot of money from big pharma. Also, consider the training itself. At UTSW you have Parkland, the new Parkland, UTSW's hospital, the children's hospital, and a huge VA. It is an urban hospital where you are guaranteed to see anything and everything. I loved it when I interviewed there. The only thing I found distasteful about Dallas was the traffic, but it has great food, culture (surprisingly), and sports culture (teams not doing well, but you are guaranteed to get a big event- final four, CFB playoffs, super bowl, etc at the Jerry Jones dome). I really liked UTSW when I interviewed but ranked it lower because, well, I liked my number one program more.

 

[eli20]

The only thing I found distasteful about Dallas was the traffic, but it has great food, culture (surprisingly)

We don't know nothin' 'bout no "culture" round these parts. That stuff is for the coasts.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

We don't know nothin' 'bout no "culture" round these parts. That stuff is for the coasts.

Class is all perspective. If you believe the center of the universe is to be found within a few miles of your house, maybe hay bale stacking contests, Lone Star, and corn hole describe the absolute pinnacle of high society. Ignorance may be bliss, but New Englanders know nothing about running a ranch.

 

[lockian]

Here's my list of top choices with brief explanations of what I'm thinking. (Edit: this isn't in any particular order).

WashU in St. Louis
Why I like it: I like that they train you to be intellectually rigorous in your diagnoses. Research that's pushing the field; academic program that draws strongly on the underserved population, which is an interest of mine.
Concerns: More hands off end of the supervision spectrum. This is simply what the senior resident I interviewed with told me she felt could be improved on, though I definitely see how it can help you grow as a doctor.

Colorado
Why I like it: Well-rounded academic program with a large catchment area, diverse VA population, major eating disorder treatment hub (also an interest of mine, go figure).
Concerns: I don't know if I'd fit in with the yuppie culture of Denver. I also like to tell people that I'm outdoorsy, but I'm really kind of lazy. In the past, was one of the work-heavier programs, but this may have changed.

U of Arizona-Tucson
Why I like it: My favorite location -- love the desert and don't mind the heat. Lots of opportunities to work with the underserved, hispanic, native american, etc. Would like to be in the southwest longterm.
Concerns: A little too VA-heavy. Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list.

U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
Why I like it: Same as above, plus even more of a community bent. More enthusiastic and happy residents than at the main campus.
Concerns: Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list. Mixed reviews on workload.

UIC-Chicago
Why I like it: Academic powerhouse, lots of high profile faculty. High-acuity urban population, lots of research and specialty opportunities, all in house.
Concerns: I've had bad experiences in the past with high-profile research faculty who care more about their research than about teaching. Also, I grew up in Chicago and part of me just wants something new.

New Mexico
Why I like it: Good teaching, underserved population with opportunities with native american and rural. Colorful, eclectic faculty. Less call. Location tied for favorite with Arizona, though a little colder. I think I'd fit in with the residents, as I want to start setting down and getting in a parenting-house-with-a-yard mindset.
Concerns: None that are important to me, except I feel my interview performance was not the best. The group interview-that-they-denied-was-an-interview format totally threw me off, and I had altitude sickness. Thoughts on sending them a follow up communication eloquently summarizing why they're my number one choice?

Minnesota
Why I like it: Happy residents, nicest facilities of all, liveable city, well-rounded academic program with good supervision
Concerns: Just the cold, really.

Baylor
Why I like it: Happy residents, diverse urban population, high-profile faculty dedicated to teaching, field-advancing research, blahblahblah
Concerns: humidity, Houston isn't as interesting to me as some other places

 

[Psychotic]

Here's my rank list with brief explanations of what I'm thinking.

WashU in St. Louis
Why I like it: I like that they train you to be intellectually rigorous in your diagnoses. Research that's pushing the field; academic program that draws strongly on the underserved population, which is an interest of mine.
Concerns: More hands off end of the supervision spectrum. This is simply what the senior resident I interviewed with told me she felt could be improved on, though I definitely see how it can help you grow as a doctor.

Colorado
Why I like it: Well-rounded academic program with a large catchment area, diverse VA population, major eating disorder treatment hub (also an interest of mine, go figure).
Concerns: I don't know if I'd fit in with the yuppie culture of Denver. I also like to tell people that I'm outdoorsy, but I'm really kind of lazy. In the past, was one of the work-heavier programs, but this may have changed.

U of Arizona-Tucson
Why I like it: My favorite location -- love the desert and don't mind the heat. Lots of opportunities to work with the underserved, hispanic, native american, etc. Would like to be in the southwest longterm.
Concerns: A little too VA-heavy. Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list.

U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
Why I like it: Same as above, plus even more of a community bent. More enthusiastic and happy residents than at the main campus.
Concerns: Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list. Mixed reviews on workload.

UIC-Chicago
Why I like it: Academic powerhouse, lots of high profile faculty. High-acuity urban population, lots of research and specialty opportunities, all in house.
Concerns: I've had bad experiences in the past with high-profile research faculty who care more about their research than about teaching. Also, I grew up in Chicago and part of me just wants something new.

New Mexico
Why I like it: Good teaching, underserved population with opportunities with native american and rural. Colorful, eclectic faculty. Less call. Location tied for favorite with Arizona, though a little colder. I think I'd fit in with the residents, as I want to start setting down and getting in a parenting-house-with-a-yard mindset.
Concerns: None that are important to me, except I feel my interview performance was not the best. The group interview-that-they-denied-was-an-interview format totally threw me off, and I had altitude sickness. Thoughts on sending them a follow up communication eloquently summarizing why they're my number one choice?

Minnesota
Why I like it: Happy residents, nicest facilities of all, liveable city, well-rounded academic program with good supervision
Concerns: Just the cold, really.

Baylor
Why I like it: Happy residents, diverse urban population, high-profile faculty dedicated to teaching, field-advancing research, blahblahblah
Concerns: humidity, Houston isn't as interesting to me as some other places

Umm, the order doesn't match your comments.

Why isn't UNM #1?

 

[kevinc2]

I also interviewed at UNM + washu.

i really liked washu- i am still concerned about supervision part, but when i talked to dr. jarvis on the interview day, he mentioned he's pretty hands on in terms of supervision with interns since "they don't know what they are doing yet"- like he will ask for their thoughts and let them make decisions but still watch over to make sure everything is ok.

For UNM, don't feel bad about the group interview thing. I felt intimidated by too + the chair grilled us with the same format in the afternoon and why new mexico over and over again. I was on the interview day with lots of applicants from the west coast who were also interviewing at top programs- i think the whole group interview format with the chair left a negative impression on us and we didn't feel great about it- so it's not just you lockian.

Here's my rank list with brief explanations of what I'm thinking.

WashU in St. Louis
Why I like it: I like that they train you to be intellectually rigorous in your diagnoses. Research that's pushing the field; academic program that draws strongly on the underserved population, which is an interest of mine.
Concerns: More hands off end of the supervision spectrum. This is simply what the senior resident I interviewed with told me she felt could be improved on, though I definitely see how it can help you grow as a doctor.

Colorado
Why I like it: Well-rounded academic program with a large catchment area, diverse VA population, major eating disorder treatment hub (also an interest of mine, go figure).
Concerns: I don't know if I'd fit in with the yuppie culture of Denver. I also like to tell people that I'm outdoorsy, but I'm really kind of lazy. In the past, was one of the work-heavier programs, but this may have changed.

U of Arizona-Tucson
Why I like it: My favorite location -- love the desert and don't mind the heat. Lots of opportunities to work with the underserved, hispanic, native american, etc. Would like to be in the southwest longterm.
Concerns: A little too VA-heavy. Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list.

U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
Why I like it: Same as above, plus even more of a community bent. More enthusiastic and happy residents than at the main campus.
Concerns: Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list. Mixed reviews on workload.

UIC-Chicago
Why I like it: Academic powerhouse, lots of high profile faculty. High-acuity urban population, lots of research and specialty opportunities, all in house.
Concerns: I've had bad experiences in the past with high-profile research faculty who care more about their research than about teaching. Also, I grew up in Chicago and part of me just wants something new.

New Mexico
Why I like it: Good teaching, underserved population with opportunities with native american and rural. Colorful, eclectic faculty. Less call. Location tied for favorite with Arizona, though a little colder. I think I'd fit in with the residents, as I want to start setting down and getting in a parenting-house-with-a-yard mindset.
Concerns: None that are important to me, except I feel my interview performance was not the best. The group interview-that-they-denied-was-an-interview format totally threw me off, and I had altitude sickness. Thoughts on sending them a follow up communication eloquently summarizing why they're my number one choice?

Minnesota
Why I like it: Happy residents, nicest facilities of all, liveable city, well-rounded academic program with good supervision
Concerns: Just the cold, really.

Baylor
Why I like it: Happy residents, diverse urban population, high-profile faculty dedicated to teaching, field-advancing research, blahblahblah
Concerns: humidity, Houston isn't as interesting to me as some other places

 

[clausewitz2]

Here's my rank list with brief explanations of what I'm thinking.

WashU in St. Louis
Why I like it: I like that they train you to be intellectually rigorous in your diagnoses. Research that's pushing the field; academic program that draws strongly on the underserved population, which is an interest of mine.
Concerns: More hands off end of the supervision spectrum. This is simply what the senior resident I interviewed with told me she felt could be improved on, though I definitely see how it can help you grow as a doctor.

Colorado
Why I like it: Well-rounded academic program with a large catchment area, diverse VA population, major eating disorder treatment hub (also an interest of mine, go figure).
Concerns: I don't know if I'd fit in with the yuppie culture of Denver. I also like to tell people that I'm outdoorsy, but I'm really kind of lazy. In the past, was one of the work-heavier programs, but this may have changed.

U of Arizona-Tucson
Why I like it: My favorite location -- love the desert and don't mind the heat. Lots of opportunities to work with the underserved, hispanic, native american, etc. Would like to be in the southwest longterm.
Concerns: A little too VA-heavy. Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list.

U of Arizona-Tucson South Campus (population it serves is my favorite)
Why I like it: Same as above, plus even more of a community bent. More enthusiastic and happy residents than at the main campus.
Concerns: Probably less well-regarded than other programs on my list. Mixed reviews on workload.

UIC-Chicago
Why I like it: Academic powerhouse, lots of high profile faculty. High-acuity urban population, lots of research and specialty opportunities, all in house.
Concerns: I've had bad experiences in the past with high-profile research faculty who care more about their research than about teaching. Also, I grew up in Chicago and part of me just wants something new.

New Mexico
Why I like it: Good teaching, underserved population with opportunities with native american and rural. Colorful, eclectic faculty. Less call. Location tied for favorite with Arizona, though a little colder. I think I'd fit in with the residents, as I want to start setting down and getting in a parenting-house-with-a-yard mindset.
Concerns: None that are important to me, except I feel my interview performance was not the best. The group interview-that-they-denied-was-an-interview format totally threw me off, and I had altitude sickness. Thoughts on sending them a follow up communication eloquently summarizing why they're my number one choice?

Minnesota
Why I like it: Happy residents, nicest facilities of all, liveable city, well-rounded academic program with good supervision
Concerns: Just the cold, really.

Baylor
Why I like it: Happy residents, diverse urban population, high-profile faculty dedicated to teaching, field-advancing research, blahblahblah
Concerns: humidity, Houston isn't as interesting to me as some other places

How you felt you performed on interview day should have absolutely no bearing on your ROL. Similarly, even if you were convinced that they were going to rank you dead last, or even that there was a chance that they wouldn't rank you at all, it should have absolutely no bearing on your ROL.

There is no strategy to ranking beyond "here is a list of the places I liked in the order in which I liked them." None. Zero. Nothing.

Kinda with Psychotic: if you don't intend to rank UNM number one, don't tell them you are going to. It probably won't help you to do so, but it is vaguely scummy.

 

[notdeadyet]

Kinda with Psychotic: if you don't intend to rank UNM number one, don't tell them you are going to. It probably won't help you to do so, but it is vaguely scummy.

It's not vague.

And agree with ranking according to personal preference, not based on how you think you'll be ranked.

C'mon folks: if you're able to learn the Krebs Cycle, you can wrap your head around how the Match program works.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

cleveland is reason enough to be biased against Case also i'm not sure the strength of the forensics program is enough of a reason to go there for general training they do seem to have problems.

i just know alot of people in a lot different departments but that doesn't necessarily translate as to knowing what being a resident there is like.
As for emory there were a few things but this was some years ago not sure how it might be different 1) they work much harder than I would have liked 2) they seemed kinda cheap 3) they are very restrictive about vacation - only 1 whole week every 6 months which would have been a deal breaker as i like to take 2-3 weeks off at a time 4) fairly inflexible in terms of electives etc. also i don't think i would have liked living in the south but that's obviously not an issue for you!

Thanks for your response and all of your help. I totally agree re: Cleveland. The South isn't great either. I get that, but I'm tied to it by my family and friends.

I've been asking about vacation everywhere I go. I'm that kind of person. At Emory, they get 3 weeks a year now. Not the best, but not the worst I've seen. An intern told me there are certain rules first year about when you can take vacation (it was like 3 days in Neuro, 7 in IM, something... I don't recall), but you're allowed to take individual days at a time. I didn't really have a chance to get the details any better than that. I felt uncomfortable asking at the dinner, because I was sitting next to one of the chiefs. To me. being able to take individual days off is a strength since I often want to do things that require only one or two extra days off. I'd hate to blow a third of my vacation just to go a friend's wedding. It occurred to me this past week, that being able to take days individually might mean you're not allowed to take big chunks. That would also suck, but I don't know of any easy way to get this info from each program.

I think they've gotten more flexible in terms of electives, and nothing seemed cheap about them while I was there. I do agree with you about the heavy work load. It's still quite heavy, and it's keeping me from wanting to rank them Number 1. They had this guy come in and tell us not to pick a residency that we think will be easy. He said "You're young. It's your time to learn." I'm afraid I have an opposing philosophy. I want to enjoy my life before I'm too old to do things. Post-menopause doesn't seem like a great time to pick up rock-climbing or skiing... also not an ideal time for dating or having children. The Emory residents seemed happy but also more tired and stressed.

 

[lockian]

Umm, the order doesn't match your comments.

Why isn't UNM #1?

That's because I don't yet have an order, so I suppose I shouldn't have called it a rank list. I just know these are the places I'm definitely going to rank highest, as I did interview at more but wasn't as big a fan. Sorry I didn't indicate that in my second, explanatory post. In my first list-only post, I stated "in no particular order." UNM is probably the closest thing I have to a number one.

 

[brainzzz]

I'm having trouble with ranking my 8 programs. I want the best adult clinical training with good psychotherapy (harder to learn through books than psychopharm) and have plans to go into forensics or child fellowship. Don't care for research but I'll do it if there's a good opportunity. Within each state, I have a sense of how programs might stack up against each other. No idea how they stack up against each other (is Brown stronger than Longwood? How about Penn? etc.):

Cornell
Pro: After lurking on SDN, I think this is the best regarded "tier 1" program I interviewed at. It has excellent psychodynamic psychotherapy, great personality disorders clinic in Westchester, and a strong intellectual feel. Being in NYC doesn't hurt either! One of the work heavy programs, but supposedly less than NYU. With NYP/Columbia affiliation, all 5 fellowships.
Con: Interview day was "meh." Really really really wanted to love the program, but no chemistry with the program directors or most residents (too formal and cold for my taste). NYC rents make me , but apparently the $1800 subsidized studio is supposed to be a great deal for that part of town.
Comments: I want to rank this #1 or #2 because of the quality of the program, but the culture is too formal for me. Thinking of ranking it lower (lower than what, I don't know) because there were other programs I had chemistry with and afraid I will regret that decision. Chemistry can be misleading...

NYU
Pro: Well regarded (people still say Cornell > NYU though). Can't beat Bellevue for clinical exposure. "Work hard, play hard." Excellent interview chemistry with the PDs and residents. Love the culture of the program. NYC!! All 5 fellowships - strong in forensics, child.
Con: Work heavy program. Residents seem tired and many do not go on to fellowship. Again -- NYC rents with little chance for subsidized housing .

Sinai
Pro: One of the cushier residencies in NYC. Cool PDs and residents. Great place for research, but not really that important to me. No forensics fellowship, but has all other accredited ones. Psychodynamic place.
Con: Sinai is going through a lot of changes. Recent Scutwork reviews are not favorable (http://www.scutwork.com/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=653). NYC rents , but subsidized $1400 and up studios.

Penn
Pro: CBT Land with good psychotherapy. All 5 fellowships. Residents and PD seem like a fun bunch of people and very supportive. Philly is well positioned between NYC and DC. Rents are reasonable.
Con: Child fellowship not as well regarded.

Pitt
Pro: Psychiatry's Disney World with strong biologic focus and exciting research happening. PD is very helpful, supportive. All five fellowships - with very strong child. Rents are reasonable.
Con: Weak in psychotherapy. Pitt is okay, but not very exciting or as diverse as I want.

Brown
Pro: Many, many clinical sites. Strong child and psychotherapy focus. Has forensics fellowship too. Easy to live in Providence and rents are reasonable. Loved the residents and PD -- very nurturing environment.
Con: Providence is okay, but not very exciting. 3 weeks paid vacation instead of the typical 4 weeks paid vacation at other programs.

Cambridge
Pro: Very special place. Great psychotherapy emphasis. Community mental health with diverse population. DBT and CBT training. Play therapy was developed here - strong child. Great benefits. Very humane program with well-adjusted residents, awesome faculty and PD. Nurturing environment. Boston is an intellectual playground, especially with close Harvard affiliation. 6 weeks elective in PGY1. Cushier than Longwood.
Con: See less patients (maybe because more psychotherapy focus?). Weaker in CL (but there is a CL fellowship here?) and no forensics. Boston is cold and expensive.

Longwood
Pro: Great clinical exposure and CL with psychotherapy focus. 1 day/week for didactics and scholarly work. DBT and CBT training. Boston is an intellectual playground, especially with close Harvard affiliation. Most fellowships offered through partnering organizations except forensics.
Con: Work heavy program. Not much chemistry with PD or residents. Residency is splitting (good or bad, I don't know). No forensics fellowship. Boston is cold and expensive.

 

[lilek22]

UTSW without question. UTSW has big names like Carol Tamminga and Carol North and is one of the best programs in the South. Eric Nestler was the previous chair. UVA isn't considered that relevant in relation to its midatlantic/southern coastal neighbors (UNC, Duke, MUSC, Hopkins). The former chair (now at Maryland) was highly suspect and took a lot of money from big pharma. Also, consider the training itself. At UTSW you have Parkland, the new Parkland, UTSW's hospital, the children's hospital, and a huge VA. It is an urban hospital where you are guaranteed to see anything and everything. I loved it when I interviewed there. The only thing I found distasteful about Dallas was the traffic, but it has great food, culture (surprisingly), and sports culture (teams not doing well, but you are guaranteed to get a big event- final four, CFB playoffs, super bowl, etc at the Jerry Jones dome). I really liked UTSW when I interviewed but ranked it lower because, well, I liked my number one program more.

The traffic is actually pretty much why I hated Dallas as petty as that sounds. I can get from one side of my midwestern city to the other in 10 mins and into the city from the suburbs in half an hour. I was simply not prepared for a city the size of Dallas and realized I'm more small town than I originally thought.

My newest dilemna is whether to rank UTSW or WashU first. I liked St Louis significantly more than Dallas because its closer to what I'm used to and my husband LOVED it. We'd be within 4 hours driving distance from our families. St Louis is probably an easier place for our kid to grow up in too. My only concern with WashU is simply the hours, I felt like they were on the heavier side of the places I interviewed at and the call schedule was more demanding as well. I still think UTSW has more to offer in terms of clinical training over WashU and I think its a somewhat more competitive program. I can't figure out how much of a biological based psychiatrist as I want to be as my home program is also very biologically inclined.

 

[RickSanchezMF]

Hoping to get some advice on my shortlist here while contributing some interview trail tidbits. My interests are on the biological side of psych but I have no desire or plans for academic medicine. Possible temporary career(s) in forensic, addiction or geri, with plans for a PP hopefully with in-house TMS, with part-time duties seeing acute/crisis patients. Love those acute patients and psychopharm. Interest in Telepsych (but hardly necessary to see it in residency) and all things interventional.

Mostly I'm struggling with the first two on my list, the other three I can handle ranking so I mostly just wanted to offer my thoughts on them. If I prioritize education, WU wins easily. If I prioritize lifestyle factors, Hawaii. Any input appreciated.

WashU:
Pros - very biological/basic-sciencey focus. Good exposure to "interventional" modalities and imaging. Faculty and residents were awesome and seemed extremely dedicated to teaching. People talked about loving the city and several former residents stayed on as faculty or chose to practice in the area. Badass residents who seem confident and happy overall. Flexible electives and chill research blocks. Mucho independence, no "helicopter attendings"
Cons - St Louis is not for me, doubt I would stay. Seems like a relatively brutal PGY1/2. Last year saw a huge uptick in IMGs vs previous years. Co-applicants were concerning.

Hawaii:
Pros - it's Hawaii. Faculty and residents are super chill and seem to get along great. No concerns over island fever for me. Everyone seemed really happy despite murmurs of heavy workloads. Telepsych.
Cons - Absolutely no moonlighting allowed, expensive to live there. Interventional seems limited to ECT and maybe Ketamine. Teaching seems adequate but not world class.

U of Louisville:
Pros - seems like a solid program with great teaching and exposure. Residents very easy going. Big on Telepsych.
Cons - geography, program is in flux (for the better), was borderline malignant a few years ago per residents. Supposed to be great right now. Decent interventional but heavy therapy focus.

LSU-OLOL:
Pros - new program, emphasis on teaching > service, decent hours, very motivated and responsive faculty. Very approachable attendings. New and beautiful facilities. Close to NOLA.
Cons - new program, IMG heavy.

Corvalis, OR (Samaritan):
Pros - easily the chillest residents ever. Good percentage are staying on as faculty. Educated local population despite rural setting (#1 in patents per capita). Cool little college town. Close to Portland
Cons - community program, very small program, trouble hiring attendings, one is currently locum tenens. Residents seem terrified of pissing off IM, EM, Sleep Med, etc.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

The traffic is actually pretty much why I hated Dallas as petty as that sounds. I can get from one side of my midwestern city to the other in 10 mins and into the city from the suburbs in half an hour. I was simply not prepared for a city the size of Dallas and realized I'm more small town than I originally thought.

My newest dilemna is whether to rank UTSW or WashU first. I liked St Louis significantly more than Dallas because its closer to what I'm used to and my husband LOVED it. We'd be within 4 hours driving distance from our families. St Louis is probably an easier place for our kid to grow up in too. My only concern with WashU is simply the hours, I felt like they were on the heavier side of the places I interviewed at and the call schedule was more demanding as well. I still think UTSW has more to offer in terms of clinical training over WashU and I think its a somewhat more competitive program. I can't figure out how much of a biological based psychiatrist as I want to be as my home program is also very biologically inclined.

As it turns out, this was my dilemma as well (with another program in the mix that I ended up ranking #2) but for different reasons. Intern year is pretty rigorous at times, and on medicine you are treated as another medicine intern, but it is very doable and worth it for the educational experience. The training and teaching are unparalleled, and the entire department is highly invested in resident education. PGY2 is Q7ish call with overnight mostly being in the ED (sometimes on the unit during weekends), but you get the entire day off the next day to recover. And though we probably work more than a lot of places, after intern year it slows down significantly. For example, even on some of my busier months, I had time to train for a half marathon (and incidentally ran my PR), am currently training for a full marathon, doing research, have plenty of time for reading, etc etc. The only thing UTSW probably offers that is less accessible at Wash U is formal training in psychoanalysis (bc the UTSW PD is an analyst). However, we have residents who, the history of our department notwithstanding are interested in pursuing this further and do training at the STL Analytic institute. Our PD, who is a well published basic scientist (has done some key work on the NMDA system) and an evidence based psychopharmacologist/ true neo Kraepelinian is very supportive. And the term "biological psychiatrist" is outdated and meaningless; I can tell you at Wash U our program is designed to turn you into a skilled physician. I am not sure what you mean by "competitive", but I can tell you that all of my co residents are bright, self motivated, diligent, and engaged (in their work)...and I am not one who puts up with slacking/laziness/pure incompetence/etc. I love STL... I'm also originally from a nearby, similarly sized midwestern town and then went to the best University in the midwest for undergrad (guess where?) and then to the South for med school, so it's good to be back. Please PM me if you have any more questions.

 

[MiddleRoad]

I'm having trouble with ranking my 8 programs. I want the best adult clinical training with good psychotherapy (harder to learn through books than psychopharm) and have plans to go into forensics or child fellowship. Don't care for research but I'll do it if there's a good opportunity. Within each state, I have a sense of how programs might stack up against each other. No idea how they stack up against each other (is Brown stronger than Longwood? How about Penn? etc.):

Cornell
Pro: After lurking on SDN, I think this is the best regarded "tier 1" program I interviewed at. It has excellent psychodynamic psychotherapy, great personality disorders clinic in Westchester, and a strong intellectual feel. Being in NYC doesn't hurt either! One of the work heavy programs, but supposedly less than NYU. With NYP/Columbia affiliation, all 5 fellowships.
Con: Interview day was "meh." Really really really wanted to love the program, but no chemistry with the program directors or most residents (too formal and cold for my taste). NYC rents make me , but apparently the $1800 subsidized studio is supposed to be a great deal for that part of town.
Comments: I want to rank this #1 or #2 because of the quality of the program, but the culture is too formal for me. Thinking of ranking it lower (lower than what, I don't know) because there were other programs I had chemistry with and afraid I will regret that decision. Chemistry can be misleading...

NYU
Pro: Well regarded (people still say Cornell > NYU though). Can't beat Bellevue for clinical exposure. "Work hard, play hard." Excellent interview chemistry with the PDs and residents. Love the culture of the program. NYC!! All 5 fellowships - strong in forensics, child.
Con: Work heavy program. Residents seem tired and many do not go on to fellowship. Again -- NYC rents with little chance for subsidized housing .

Sinai
Pro: One of the cushier residencies in NYC. Cool PDs and residents. Great place for research, but not really that important to me. No forensics fellowship, but has all other accredited ones. Psychodynamic place.
Con: Sinai is going through a lot of changes. Recent Scutwork reviews are not favorable (http://www.scutwork.com/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=653). NYC rents , but subsidized $1400 and up studios.

Penn
Pro: CBT Land with good psychotherapy. All 5 fellowships. Residents and PD seem like a fun bunch of people and very supportive. Philly is well positioned between NYC and DC. Rents are reasonable.
Con: Child fellowship not as well regarded.

Pitt
Pro: Psychiatry's Disney World with strong biologic focus and exciting research happening. PD is very helpful, supportive. All five fellowships - with very strong child. Rents are reasonable.
Con: Weak in psychotherapy. Pitt is okay, but not very exciting or as diverse as I want.

Brown
Pro: Many, many clinical sites. Strong child and psychotherapy focus. Has forensics fellowship too. Easy to live in Providence and rents are reasonable. Loved the residents and PD -- very nurturing environment.
Con: Providence is okay, but not very exciting. 3 weeks paid vacation instead of the typical 4 weeks paid vacation at other programs.

Cambridge
Pro: Very special place. Great psychotherapy emphasis. Community mental health with diverse population. DBT and CBT training. Play therapy was developed here - strong child. Great benefits. Very humane program with well-adjusted residents, awesome faculty and PD. Nurturing environment. Boston is an intellectual playground, especially with close Harvard affiliation. 6 weeks elective in PGY1. Cushier than Longwood.
Con: See less patients (maybe because more psychotherapy focus?). Weaker in CL (but there is a CL fellowship here?) and no forensics. Boston is cold and expensive.

Longwood
Pro: Great clinical exposure and CL with psychotherapy focus. 1 day/week for didactics and scholarly work. DBT and CBT training. Boston is an intellectual playground, especially with close Harvard affiliation. Most fellowships offered through partnering organizations except forensics.
Con: Work heavy program. Not much chemistry with PD or residents. Residency is splitting (good or bad, I don't know). No forensics fellowship. Boston is cold and expensive.

Sounds like you should do some second looks.

 

[brainzzz]

Sounds like you should do some second looks.

Thanks for the advice, @MiddleRoad. For a variety of reasons I won't list here, I can't do second looks. That's why I'm asking for some feedback.

 

[brainzzz]

Hoping to get some advice on my shortlist here while contributing some interview trail tidbits. My interests are on the biological side of psych but I have no desire or plans for academic medicine. Possible temporary career(s) in forensic, addiction or geri, with plans for a PP hopefully with in-house TMS, with part-time duties seeing acute/crisis patients. Love those acute patients and psychopharm. Interest in Telepsych (but hardly necessary to see it in residency) and all things interventional.

Mostly I'm struggling with the first two on my list, the other three I can handle ranking so I mostly just wanted to offer my thoughts on them. If I prioritize education, WU wins easily. If I prioritize lifestyle factors, Hawaii. Any input appreciated.

WashU:
Pros - very biological/basic-sciencey focus. Good exposure to "interventional" modalities and imaging. Faculty and residents were awesome and seemed extremely dedicated to teaching. People talked about loving the city and several former residents stayed on as faculty or chose to practice in the area. Badass residents who seem confident and happy overall. Flexible electives and chill research blocks. Mucho independence, no "helicopter attendings"
Cons - St Louis is not for me, doubt I would stay. Seems like a relatively brutal PGY1/2. Last year saw a huge uptick in IMGs vs previous years. Co-applicants were concerning.

Hawaii:
Pros - it's Hawaii. Faculty and residents are super chill and seem to get along great. No concerns over island fever for me. Everyone seemed really happy despite murmurs of heavy workloads. Telepsych.
Cons - Absolutely no moonlighting allowed, expensive to live there. Interventional seems limited to ECT and maybe Ketamine. Teaching seems adequate but not world class.

U of Louisville:
Pros - seems like a solid program with great teaching and exposure. Residents very easy going. Big on Telepsych.
Cons - geography, program is in flux (for the better), was borderline malignant a few years ago per residents. Supposed to be great right now. Decent interventional but heavy therapy focus.

LSU-OLOL:
Pros - new program, emphasis on teaching > service, decent hours, very motivated and responsive faculty. Very approachable attendings. New and beautiful facilities. Close to NOLA.
Cons - new program, IMG heavy.

Corvalis, OR (Samaritan):
Pros - easily the chillest residents ever. Good percentage are staying on as faculty. Educated local population despite rural setting (#1 in patents per capita). Cool little college town. Close to Portland
Cons - community program, very small program, trouble hiring attendings, one is currently locum tenens. Residents seem terrified of pissing off IM, EM, Sleep Med, etc.

@RickSanchezMF -- I would agree that WashU wins for biologic education. I have some friends in the medial field who work at WashU, live in St. Louis, and like it, but it's not for everyone. Could it be for you for a 4-year period?

Basically, I think location and where you want to end up is going to be a big consideration for you. Sure, you can move after residency, but it might be easier to move to one region versus another. Do you like the culture of the Midwest? South? West Coast? Hawaii? Personally, I'd be worried about being too isolated being in Hawaii, but it might not be a consideration for you. It's worth seeing where residents end up, especially those who go into forensic/addiction/geri. Connections, experiences can be important for fellowship so consider that.

Not sure how the programs stack up against each other in TMS, acute/crisis, telepsych. I would imagine you can pick up telepsych experience easily depending where you decide to practice. TMS training may be more difficult to get. Is one more important than the other for you?

 

[Asklepian]

As a current UTSW Resident, and a non-native who moved from a smaller area with no traffic delays to speak of, I'd just like to note that the traffic in Dallas has not been an issue for me whatsoever. Even "bad" Dallas traffic is not that bad, and I say that having moved from one of the top cities in the nation in terms of low commute times. It *COULD* be, if you choose to live far away, but that's the case anywhere. If you reside in a popular suburb and commute into the city, do expect longer transit times. However, there is a great light rail system in town (The DART) for which we can buy an unlimited year-long pass at a subsidized rate through the program, and it runs to pretty much all of our major rotation sites. But this isn't really necessary, as even several miles out most of us don't drive more than 15 minutes each way (and some live in Medical District and walk to work). I wouldn't sacrifice the great training and exceptionally strong program here due to fears of commute time, certainly. And as for culture, the Dallas Arts District consistently ranks in the top 10 in the country. There are constantly things to do here. Yes, there are rodeos, stock shows, and all the "Texas-y" things you could desire, but there are also symphonies, operas, ballets, copious concerts and sporting events, etc. I have been nothing short of consistently impressed with everything from the city to the program itself. Feel free to PM me with further questions, and best of luck with the Match!

 

[Ishiguro]

I'm having trouble with ranking my 8 programs. I want the best adult clinical training with good psychotherapy (harder to learn through books than psychopharm) and have plans to go into forensics or child fellowship. Don't care for research but I'll do it if there's a good opportunity. Within each state, I have a sense of how programs might stack up against each other. No idea how they stack up against each other (is Brown stronger than Longwood? How about Penn? etc.):

NYU
Pro: Well regarded (people still say Cornell > NYU though). Can't beat Bellevue for clinical exposure. "Work hard, play hard." Excellent interview chemistry with the PDs and residents. Love the culture of the program. NYC!! All 5 fellowships - strong in forensics, child.
Con: Work heavy program. Residents seem tired and many do not go on to fellowship. Again -- NYC rents with little chance for subsidized housing .

NYC is terribly expensive, and it costs a fortune to have a nice place in Manhattan-- difficult if you aren't in a two-earner household. The New York programs tend to pay well, though, and this makes a difference. If you can tolerate a subway or PATH commute, NYU is reasonably accessible-- plenty of people live in Brooklyn, Queens, Hoboken or Jersey City and commute approx 45 minutes to work. I do this, and I pay under $2000 for two bedrooms and still make (income based) loan repayments. I also find that groceries are well priced here, cheap restaurants are abundant, and not having a car saves lots of money and headaches.

It can be done! (I do sometimes long for a yard and a washer/dryer, but right now, I'm having a great time training in New York).

 

[brainzzz]

NYC is terribly expensive, and it costs a fortune to have a nice place in Manhattan-- difficult if you aren't in a two-earner household. The New York programs tend to pay well, though, and this makes a difference. If you can tolerate a subway or PATH commute, NYU is reasonably accessible-- plenty of people live in Brooklyn, Queens, Hoboken or Jersey City and commute approx 45 minutes to work. I do this, and I pay under $2000 for two bedrooms and still make (income based) loan repayments. I also find that groceries are well priced here, cheap restaurants are abundant, and not having a car saves lots of money and headaches.

It can be done! (I do sometimes long for a yard and a washer/dryer, but right now, I'm having a great time training in New York).

Thanks for the tips @Ishiguro. Since I've never tried living in NYC, it's nice to know it's do-able. I'm thinking about ranking the other programs above NYC ones because I can save more (paying off loans ftw!). Are the other programs a significant step down from NYU, Columbia, Mount Sinai? I'd think that there's still a diverse population at the other programs, but maybe you don't see "everything" like at the NYC programs.

 

[Bluejay87]

Anyone have any insight regarding University of South Dakota vs. LSU-OLOL? They seem very similar to me, though USD gets a point for having a CAP fellowship (which I have a strong interest in) and LSU-OLOL gets a point for not being located in the frozen tundra.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Anyone have any insight regarding University of South Dakota vs. LSU-OLOL? They seem very similar to me, though USD gets a point for having a CAP fellowship (which I have a strong interest in) and LSU-OLOL gets a point for not being located in the frozen tundra.

I can't compare the two, but I did my core psych rotation with the LSU-OLOL crew. It was a very positive experience. The OLOL residents were the friendliest people I've met in medical school. The program seems to have a lot of young and highly motivated faculty. While I was there one attending was working to get a TMS machine and it actually happened. The C/L service at OLOL is pretty busy. It seemed like there was some debate going on about the call schedule while I was there. I'm not sure how that was resolved, but the call was relatively light from what I remember. I guess this isn't very helpful. If it was up to me, I'd choose OLOL for the superior climate and proximity to New Orleans and the gulf coast versus South Dakota's proximity to nothing. Baton Rouge has a Trader Joe's. We're all very jealous down here in NOLA.

 

[notdeadyet]

Sounds like you should do some second looks.

Death to second looks.

Personally, I'd ask questions of your faculty or resident contacts at the program or ask the program coordinator to put you in touch for email or phone call.

There is nothing wrong with pinging programs of interest with additional questions. But the utility of asking them to set aside a half day and customize face time so that you can ask said questions isn't typically necessary. And it's as expensive as hell to the applicant.

 

[MiddleRoad]

Death to second looks.

Personally, I'd ask questions of your faculty or resident contacts at the program or ask the program coordinator to put you in touch for email or phone call.

There is nothing wrong with pinging programs of interest with additional questions. But the utility of asking them to set aside a half day and customize face time so that you can ask said questions isn't typically necessary. And it's as expensive as hell to the applicant.

Yes, obviously asking a program to set aside time for a revisit is a bad idea.

Going to s second look, which are most often coordinated days set up by programs to invite applicants to re-evaluate residencies late In the season, can be a lot more informative than getting advice from anonymous but opinionated strangers on websites.

This is of course assuming that traveling back is not prohibitive for any reason (which it clearly is for brainzzz).

 

[notdeadyet]

Going to s second look, which are most often coordinated days set up by programs to invite applicants to re-evaluate residencies late In the season, can be a lot more informative than getting advice from anonymous but opinionated strangers on websites.

Ah, sorry, I see what you're saying.

If programs have a second look day, knock your socks off. Most programs I am familiar with don't have these (other than a few with very specific themes like research candidates, diversity, etc.). When I think about "second looks," I am typically thinking of applicants contacting programs asking for another visit. I was involved with a few of these on the adcom side and they typically were applicants asking questions and auditioning as if their behavior at the second visit would improve impressions of them. Which it doesn't.

I'm just kinky of any more stressors applicants apply to themselves unnecessarily. Second looks will not help your chances at matching. They will also likely not have a big impact on your impressions of a program if you do adequate homework before you visit for the interview.

 

[RickSanchezMF]

Anyone have any insight regarding University of South Dakota vs. LSU-OLOL? They seem very similar to me, though USD gets a point for having a CAP fellowship (which I have a strong interest in) and LSU-OLOL gets a point for not being located in the frozen tundra.

I would like to second RoguePenguin about the OLOL crew being some very chill residents (with one exception) with great support from faculty. I'm glad it wasn't just an interview impression.

 

[RickSanchezMF]

@RickSanchezMF -- I would agree that WashU wins for biologic education. I have some friends in the medial field who work at WashU, live in St. Louis, and like it, but it's not for everyone. Could it be for you for a 4-year period?

Absolutely, I just worry that it might be a waste if I have no intention of staying in the area afterwards.

Basically, I think location and where you want to end up is going to be a big consideration for you. Sure, you can move after residency, but it might be easier to move to one region versus another. Do you like the culture of the Midwest? South? West Coast? Hawaii?

Culture-wise, I'm a Westcoast person that loved living in the South but is too socially liberal to make it a permanent thing. Hawaii is somewhere I lived before and absolutely love, but I could never settle there if I plan on being a parent someday: local culture, business climate, schools, $1m for a 3 bedroom house, etc. Corvallis is perfect in those regards, but the program itself leaves me with some doubts.

Not sure how the programs stack up against each other in TMS, acute/crisis, telepsych. I would imagine you can pick up telepsych experience easily depending where you decide to practice. TMS training may be more difficult to get. Is one more important than the other for you?

Very true, now that I think about it, I have no problem flying around to seminars and workshops as a psychiatrist to get that extra training on my own time/money. The only thing I might need from a university would be DBS/VNS/ECT exposure. TMS and Tele aren't really an issue.

Thanks for the thoughts Brainzzz. I'm still trying to figure out the quoting system, sorry about the formatting.

 

[xjoc]

NYU
Pro: Well regarded (people still say Cornell > NYU though). Can't beat Bellevue for clinical exposure. "Work hard, play hard." Excellent interview chemistry with the PDs and residents. Love the culture of the program. NYC!! All 5 fellowships - strong in forensics, child.
Con: Work heavy program. Residents seem tired and many do not go on to fellowship. Again -- NYC rents with little chance for subsidized housing .

Sinai
Pro: One of the cushier residencies in NYC. Cool PDs and residents. Great place for research, but not really that important to me. No forensics fellowship, but has all other accredited ones. Psychodynamic place.
Con: Sinai is going through a lot of changes. Recent Scutwork reviews are not favorable (http://www.scutwork.com/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=653). NYC rents , but subsidized $1400 and up studios.

NYU residents certainly work hard but I didn't get the sense it was as hard as rumored. Other than night float, residents I spoke with said they were only on call 1 weekend day per month on inpatient psychiatry.

Would also be interested to hear other thoughts regarding the culture at Sinai. Any truth to the claims posted on scutwork?

 

[lockian]

I'm not sure where I should put the Arizona programs on my list. Due to location and patient demographics, I'd be tempted to put them near #1 with UNM, but is that silly to do if you've also got the likes of WashU and UIC among your top choices?

 

[675015]

I'm not sure where I should put the Arizona programs on my list. Due to location and patient demographics, I'd be tempted to put them near #1 with UNM, but is that silly to do if you've also got the likes of WashU and UIC among your top choices?

Not if you don't want to be in Chicago or Saint Louis and you do want to be in Arizona.

 

[lockian]

Hoping to get some advice on my shortlist here while contributing some interview trail tidbits. My interests are on the biological side of psych but I have no desire or plans for academic medicine. Possible temporary career(s) in forensic, addiction or geri, with plans for a PP hopefully with in-house TMS, with part-time duties seeing acute/crisis patients. Love those acute patients and psychopharm. Interest in Telepsych (but hardly necessary to see it in residency) and all things interventional.

Mostly I'm struggling with the first two on my list, the other three I can handle ranking so I mostly just wanted to offer my thoughts on them. If I prioritize education, WU wins easily. If I prioritize lifestyle factors, Hawaii. Any input appreciated.

WashU:
Pros - very biological/basic-sciencey focus. Good exposure to "interventional" modalities and imaging. Faculty and residents were awesome and seemed extremely dedicated to teaching. People talked about loving the city and several former residents stayed on as faculty or chose to practice in the area. Badass residents who seem confident and happy overall. Flexible electives and chill research blocks. Mucho independence, no "helicopter attendings"
Cons - St Louis is not for me, doubt I would stay. Seems like a relatively brutal PGY1/2. Last year saw a huge uptick in IMGs vs previous years. Co-applicants were concerning.

Hawaii:
Pros - it's Hawaii. Faculty and residents are super chill and seem to get along great. No concerns over island fever for me. Everyone seemed really happy despite murmurs of heavy workloads. Telepsych.
Cons - Absolutely no moonlighting allowed, expensive to live there. Interventional seems limited to ECT and maybe Ketamine. Teaching seems adequate but not world class.

U of Louisville:
Pros - seems like a solid program with great teaching and exposure. Residents very easy going. Big on Telepsych.
Cons - geography, program is in flux (for the better), was borderline malignant a few years ago per residents. Supposed to be great right now. Decent interventional but heavy therapy focus.

LSU-OLOL:
Pros - new program, emphasis on teaching > service, decent hours, very motivated and responsive faculty. Very approachable attendings. New and beautiful facilities. Close to NOLA.
Cons - new program, IMG heavy.

Corvalis, OR (Samaritan):
Pros - easily the chillest residents ever. Good percentage are staying on as faculty. Educated local population despite rural setting (#1 in patents per capita). Cool little college town. Close to Portland
Cons - community program, very small program, trouble hiring attendings, one is currently locum tenens. Residents seem terrified of pissing off IM, EM, Sleep Med, etc.

FUNNY STORY, I dreamt last night that I was having technical difficulties with the ranking system, accidentally ranked Hawaii first and ended up trapped into going there.

That said, I interviewed there as well, and for a long time it was a first choice due to lifestyle factors and the fact that it's a very underserved area with a very interesting and unique demographic situation, so I'm also torn. I felt like I fit in with the residents better than anywhere, but the no moonlighting opportunities was a big turnoff. I mean, Hawaii is one of the few places where moonlighting would've been helpful, given the cost of living. The residents told me that the cost of living shouldn't be a problem unless you have a nonworking spouse or children to support, but I'd still rather err on the side of caution.

The residents at Hawaii also told me there were some problems with the didactics, but they didn't have time to elaborate... maybe you might want to ask if you contact them again.

Aside from that, I think the Hawaii program has a lot of potential, but there's a natural brain drain due to the difficulty of living there. It's probably a place where you'll learn a lot if you're independent and a self-starter. The impact of culture shock is also not to be underestimated.

ETA:
another consideration is whether you'd like to live there long-term. After four years most people realize that they don't -- it's too far from family, or there's an issue for spouses/partners. And if you don't want to be in Hawaii long term, or aren't sure, there are probably better places to train.

On the flip side, people also cite that it's difficult to get a job there if you want to make the move post-residency. I'm not really sure why -- according to the PD, the psychiatrist shortage is as severe (if not more) than anywhere else, especially on the outer islands. The younger attending I interviewed with and one of the recent grads of my home program said that flying out for interviews is the logistical barrier, but I can't imagine it's *that* huge of a deal.

 

[lockian]

Not if you don't want to be in Chicago or Saint Louis and you do want to be in Arizona.

When it comes down to THAT, where I'd really like to be is Hawaii (see above post), but there are too many issues with the program proper to tip the balance.

 

[notdeadyet]

The residents told me that the cost of living shouldn't be a problem unless you have a nonworking spouse or children to support, but I'd still rather err on the side of caution.

Were they Hawaiian, by chance?

Cost of living is deceptive in Hawaii. Stuff is expensive, but you learn to buy less "stuff" and enjoy the simple pleasures, which Hawaii has in abundance. Folks who don't do that tend not to stay.

The drag of living on a resident salary in Hawaii for a mainlander is that one of the keys to sanity for folks who don't go completely native is to get off island and back to the mainland a few times a year. And that can be prohibitively expensive on a resident income.

The
On the flip side, people also cite that it's difficult to get a job there if you want to make the move post-residency. I'm not really sure why -- according to the PD, the psychiatrist shortage is as severe (if not more) than anywhere else, especially on the outer islands. The younger attending I interviewed with and one of the recent grads of my home program said that flying out for interviews is the logistical barrier, but I can't imagine it's *that* huge of a deal.

Hawaii is always in a pinch with professionals. Many of the locals who become doctors, lawyers, and business types either train on the mainland and don't come back or head out after training for more professional opportunities.

Further complicating things is that local healthcare companies prefer to hire locals because mainlanders tend to come out excited about Hawaii and then return to the mainland after a year or two. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that salaries are disproportionately low given cost of living.

I loved my years there (working, not residency) but it is a very acquired taste.

 

[lockian]

Were they Hawaiian, by chance?

Cost of living is deceptive in Hawaii. Stuff is expensive, but you learn to buy less "stuff" and enjoy the simple pleasures, which Hawaii has in abundance. Folks who don't do that tend not to stay.

The drag of living on a resident salary in Hawaii for a mainlander is that one of the keys to sanity for folks who don't go completely native is to get off island and back to the mainland a few times a year. And that can be prohibitively expensive on a resident income.

Hawaii is always in a pinch with professionals. Many of the locals who become doctors, lawyers, and business types either train on the mainland and don't come back or head out after training for more professional opportunities.

Further complicating things is that local healthcare companies prefer to hire locals because mainlanders tend to come out excited about Hawaii and then return to the mainland after a year or two. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that salaries are disproportionately low given cost of living.

I loved my years there (working, not residency) but it is a very acquired taste.

Interestingly, none of the residents I met were Hawaiian. But it's true, they were all "less material" types. As an example, though, one guy had a child they couldn't get into preschool (there are waiting lists), so his wife couldn't work and they had a hard time making ends meet. They still survived, but I don't want to end up counting pennies if there are unforeseen life circumstances such as the above; I prefer to have a cushion.

But I return to my prior point... I think that when it comes to Hawaii vs. some of the other institutions I'm considering, there's no contest where I'd get the better training. However, sometimes the key difference between programs will in fact be how you'll get to spend your free time, and perhaps in that regard, location is not to be discounted.

 

[J ROD]

I am ranked and certified.

 

[brainzzz]

NYU residents certainly work hard but I didn't get the sense it was as hard as rumored. Other than night float, residents I spoke with said they were only on call 1 weekend day per month on inpatient psychiatry.

Would also be interested to hear other thoughts regarding the culture at Sinai. Any truth to the claims posted on scutwork?

No idea -- the Mount Sinai residents seem like a pretty cool and happy bunch. I was very impressed by the PDs. During the interview day, it didn't seem like they had many complaints. Just saw the Scutwork claims recently, so I did not get the chance to ask about specifics. Not sure if the review on Scutwork is legitimate or if someone has an axe to grind. If I find out any more information from the residents, I'll let you know. It might be nothing, or it might be something. That's the thing with anonymous internet reviews.