Ortho Match Day

[Firm]

It's been a while since I posted. I've been a free man from the clutches of dental school and haven't looked back.

This seems to be an OEC bashing forum. I believe that it's the orthodontists fault that the OEC has developed. For a long time orthodontists have been content to open suburban practices, charge high prices, and work minimal hours, while at the same time limiting the number of people who can get into ortho programs. 20-30 years of this resulted in the OEC. Someone on here said that "the OEC is trying to ruin the integrity of ortho programs". I think that the ortho programs ruined there integrity when they limited their spots, and accepted only legacies, and people who donated large amounts of money.
Somebody said "the people who go to the OEC progams will recieve an inferior education". Jacksonville has more faculty per student than most other programs(and more want to join). When it comes to treating OMS cases Jacksonville works with OMS in town. I think that is a lot more real world than treating cases at a school. The residents at Jacksonville have surgey conferences every two weeks, and do rotations at Shands (local hospital). The facilities at Jacksonville are second to none (more assistance, more front desk staff, better equipment).
Most of the orthodontist that graduate from the "real programs" are going to end up working at chain/OCA type offices when they get out, because they owe so much money. Think about it $200,000 for dental school, $1-200,000 for ortho school, $350,000 for a practice, $200,000 for a house, $30,000 for a car. A practice is something most ortho residents can't afford right away. It may take 3-4 years to get started, why not learn on Lazzara's dime.
I'll close on this. Lazzara is not a bad guy, he's a grandfather in his 60's and has more money than he knows what to do with. For him this isnt all about money, it's about changing the way orthodontics has worked for the past 30 years. I agree that things do need to change.
I hope that we can have a civil discussion on this topic without name calling and insults.

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[Jone]

shopaholic

did OEC already determine where you'll serve your 7 years, or is that determined after you graduate?

Hello, newcomer here. I've been reading SDN for a couple of months, but this is my first time writing. I've read posting after posting about how OEC is going to ruin the profession that I'm almost afraid to post. Why? Because next year I will be taking a scholarship from OEC. So my question is why do so many SDNers fear/hate me so much? I do not feel that I am compromising myself in anyway, and after visiting both Colorado and Jacksonville, I have no doubt that I'm going to get a top notch education from an accredited school. I applied to my own school's ortho program expecting at least a courtesy interview, but instead only got a courtesy letdown. They brought me in and told me that I was not going to get an interview and that OEC would be a better option for me if I wanted. The director even said that he thought the concept was good. Maybe he was just kidding, but I took him seriously...and next year I'll be starting my residency.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I hope that we can have a civil discussion on this topic without name calling and insults.

I agree. I've noticed a significant amount of bias against OEC on this forum. I'd like to hear from the residents who are benefiting from OEC program as well.

I can say that at least what you hear as a dental student can be shockingly different from what you experience as a 'real world' dentist/resident. Bless SDN!

 

[Jediwendell]

You know, I got in at SA this year, and really didn't consider OEC programs. I think if they would have done a program more like the armed forces scholarship programs, they wouldn't have gotten such a bad rap. I mean, they could still basically fund these programs, have x number of spots, and then let people choose after they were in whether they wanted to pay tuition or accept the seven years of indentured servitude and salary in lieu of tuition. The military system works very similarly and doesn't have the same reputation. The problem is that when you have an entity like OEC teaching OEC people, then you are introducing corporate bias into the treatment options that will be presented to the patient. That is what the academic institutions are supposed to prevent. Of course you can see anti-patient bias in any residency with the whole "maximum resident benefit" issue. After going through the ortho interview process, I can say that I probably would have thought pretty long and hard about OEC if I had to choose between them and a program that charges 25-45 grand per year. In my opinion charging this much for tuition for a residency that makes the school money is reprehensible. As for the number of spots being limited...... That is true for basically all professional schools. Except maybe law school. Don't want the dental professional to be on every corner and gain a reputation like lawyers. The number of dentists in the country is limited. With good reason. Orthodontics and all other residencies are competitive. There really isn't enough money to go around to teach everyone, and that would defeat the purpose of even having a specialist. The lamest argument for OEC is the access to care issue. Orthodontics is largely cosmetic, and people tend to find ways to pay for it if they want it. The best argument they have is the money for residents issue. I just don't know if it is worth it to pay 40 grand a year to go to case western for ortho school. I personally have no beef with people interested in OEC. I can understand because of the competitive nasty nature of the application and interview process. I have to admit that I haven't really heard great things about the OCA treatment philosophy. I gotta tell you Griff, if I was in your shoes I would consider it. I would choose OEC over a tuition heavy program given the choice. Good luck to those of you that are doing it. I hope it turns out like you want.

 

[dort-ort]

This seems to be an OEC bashing forum. I believe that it's the orthodontists fault that the OEC has developed. For a long time orthodontists have been content to open suburban practices, charge high prices, and work minimal hours, while at the same time limiting the number of people who can get into ortho programs. 20-30 years of this resulted in the OEC. Someone on here said that "the OEC is trying to ruin the integrity of ortho programs". I think that the ortho programs ruined there integrity when they limited their spots, and accepted only legacies, and people who donated large amounts of money.
Somebody said "the people who go to the OEC progams will recieve an inferior education". Jacksonville has more faculty per student than most other programs(and more want to join).

Firm, after reading your above post, I realize that there really isn't anything that anyone can say or do to shape anyone's views (ostensibly this applies to all issues in life) regarding OEC. Not until about 5 years from now when the current OEC students graduate and have been in practice will you get true first hand account of OEC. Having said that, I do want to respond to your comments.

Regarding OEC being the orthodontist's fault - I don't think its anyone's fault. To put it plainly, its about a guy (Lazzara) that wants to make money - end of discussion -- and I don't have a problem with this - but he's doing it in a way that undercuts/waters down the profession (so orthodontist will be in every corner walgreens and every walmart like pharmacists and optometrists -this in itself is a poor argument against OEC but if that were the case I just feel sad from the point of veiw of those who's endured 10 yrs of hard work and endless sleepless nights to be an orthodontist. (but who cares I am a single sole in this world of billions).

Anyways, when you say orthodontists opening up in suburbs and charging high prices and working minimal hours -- I can't see how this caused OEC to spring up. From this comment I sense you have envious animosity towards orthodontists. Nothing wrong with that - many have this feeling. But you know, you can say general dentists have done the same - opening up in burbs and charging high prices - (and if you talk to general dentists most will tell you that 50% of ortho is done by GP's), so maybe GP's have contributed to this also then. My general feeling about this is the United States is a free-market economy -- if they are able to charge high prices, work minimal hours, and still have patients -- by golly I tip my hat to that - its the american way. You may say orthodontists can do this because there is a limited amount of ortho grads per year -- however, as you may be aware -- the number of orthodontists is the highest among all dental specialties, oral surgery being second. Yes but you can say that its supply and demand and there is a lot of demand for ortho so there should be more ortho grads, thus the need for OEC. True then why don't you call your state congressman and ask tell him we need funding for more orthodontic programs. In this way a true ortho program can be formed that does not involve private funding. You see here is the crux of the argument that people have against OEC. No matter how you parse the wording, if private funding is involved it will greatly diminish objectiveness of the application process. Those applicants who agree to take the OEC indentured servitude will be favored over other candidates, period. Discounting any fair and objective means of applicant evaluation (ie. academic profile, class rank, GPA, research experience, etc.).

The key point you have to understand my friend Firm is that the argument against OEC is NOT: "the OEC is trying to ruin the integrity of ortho programs" or "the people who go to the OEC progams will recieve an inferior education." How can anyone argue against OEC using these unfounded opinions, thats shallow and ridiculous. The Crux of the argument against OEC is the little paper they have you sign before you are accepted that says you HAVE to work for them for seven years. They can do this because they are privately funded. This however undermines the ADA regulations that provides for the objectiveness of the application process. This conflict is what will be at the fore when final review for full ADA accreditation occurs for the current OEC programs in existence. And ADA accreditation is what matters.

Let me put it this way -- If OEC did not have the seven year requirement as stipulation to acquiring acceptance into their program --- then there absolutely would be no legitimate argument against its existence. People can complain and voice their disgust but there will be nothing they can do. And if OEC did that then I would consider them equal to any other ortho program.
So why doesn't OEC do this (get rid of the 7 yr stipulation)? Well if they are investing hundreds of millions of dollars they absolutely have to pin down their returns. The seven yr stipulation is the only way they can get the returns on their investment. Thats what the OEC ortho grads are - pawns used to obtain returns on an investment - kinda like land or property you invest in to make money on. If your blinding quest for orthodontics is so severe and you are willing to be OEC's property and thier means for a return on their investment (instead of your own) -- then its alright -- go for it --- best of luck -- no one can stop you (except for maybe the ghost of orthodontic future - if somehow he can take you to preview your future (what there is of it)). Why not be a GP and take ortho CE and limit practice to ortho -- numerous many have done this and prospered enormously all the while keeping their rightful independence on the direction of their career.

The sad thing is, who's to stop anyone from doing the same for general dentistry? What if some guy with deep pockets decides he wants to open up a dental school at a university that doesn't currently have a dental school and formulates the same stipulations for acceptance into that privately funded dental school. That is, seven yrs. servitude upon graduation. Unfortunately there would not be any problem to find candidates for this privately funded dental school as there are many dental applicants who are denied acceptance to a traditional dental school (whether their academic profile was inferior or not) that would gladly sign up just because they want to be a dentist so bad. How would those that worked hard to obtain competative academic profiles in order to gain acceptance to a traditional dental school feel? Probably Ok until dental grads from these privately funded dental school open up offices next to him. There would be dentist around every corner instead of around every 3 corners. Just a wonderful thought by the way. What if the same happens for endo? pedo? oral sx? etc. that would be soo wonderful. super, I like where this leads. everyone and his mother is a dentist. how nice.

Seriously, to tell you the truth any Joe Blow can open any school he wants and no one can stop him but to get ADA accreditation, you have to obey by standards and rules to maintain integrity and objectiveness. As long as OEC requires a seven yr servitude for acceptance, they will never have this. Again, this is where the argument is, period. All other arguments against OEC (such as them being inferior academically) are hogwash and just people voicing their opinions (but they have the right to the opinions just as you and I do).

As far as Lazarra being a nice guy? Well, in documented interviews that have been released he has said that one of the main goals of OEC is to increase orthodontics to the underserved (as I understand it the underserved refers to the indigent - examples include inner city kids or kids at indian reservations) . This reason is purely lip service to sound noble and charitable. I don't understand how he can say this when the last I looked there are millions of inner city kids or kids at indian reservations without access to simple general dental care. Rampant caries where water is not flouridated and kids not able to obtain proper general dental care because they can't afford a simple filling. So you see many bombed out dentitions leading to loss of teeth for these poor kids. ORTHODONTICS is the last thing needed for the "underserved". If he was truly charitable why don't he require his OEC grads to work for in a general dental office providing general dental care for 3 of those seven years in inner cities and indian reservations? better yet open up a privately funded dental school where graduates are required to do this for 7 yrs before they are free - and give them full ride scholarships - you'll be hard pressed to find decent arguments against this.

You see my friends. Many keep saying that this is an OEC bashing forum. It is not. People are just voicing opinions and there just happens to be more negative ones (not by chance as explained above) than there are positive ones. People inherently know there is something of a catch when you sign up with OEC. Its the old bait and switch. However OEC is not hiding the bait or the switch -- it is clearly written on their contract -- seven yrs of servitude for acceptance.

There are many out there however who will say they don't care about working for OEC for seven years. That is ok. there will always be this crowd. But to these people I can't say anything that will affect a change in their opinions anyways so I won't try. It is something they have to experience for themselves first hand, only then will they understand the negatives of their choice. But from my experience eventhough not an OEC experience I will say: see my earlier post a few posts up.



Cheez -- long post -- but its just my opinions. best of luck.

 

[shopaholic]

shopaholic

did OEC already determine where you'll serve your 7 years, or is that determined after you graduate?

In terms of where I'll serve my 7 years, I am still undecided. I have until the year before I graduate to decide because OEC needs one year to find a location and build the practice. Most people decide beforehand though. Basically you name your top three choices. There's this guy who will research the city demographics to see if it's a viable option. If he thinks there's a market for another orthodontist, then that's where you'll go. It's true that some freedom is lost in the sense that you can't pick oversaturated markets like Los Angeles.

 

[shopaholic]

If you don't mind sharing, what are your stats? What school do you go to, what is your class rank/GPA, Board Part I scores. Also where did you apply for ortho and interview?

And How many faculty are there at the program you will be attending? You didn't mention which OEC program you will be at. And how does this number of faculty compare with the number of faculty per resident at a traditional program? Thanks.

First off, I'd have to say that my stats may or may not be the norm. GPA 3.1, rank 50/70, 86 part 1. I interviewed at Colorado and Jacksonville, and both didn't seem that interested in my stats. Instead, I think they were more interested in students that were diverse, mature, stable, and truly wanted to be there. I will be going to Colorado, and they currently have 5 full time faculty, and 15-30 part-time. I can't remember the exact number for the part-time and I may be confusing it with Jacksonville.

 

[Geezer99]

As far as Lazarra being a nice guy? Well, in documented interviews that have been released he has said that one of the main goals of OEC is to increase orthodontics to the underserved (as I understand it the underserved refers to the indigent - examples include inner city kids or kids at indian reservations) . This reason is purely lip service to sound noble and charitable. I don't understand how he can say this when the last I looked there are millions of inner city kids or kids at indian reservations without access to simple general dental care. Rampant caries where water is not flouridated and kids not able to obtain proper general dental care because they can't afford a simple filling. So you see many bombed out dentitions leading to loss of teeth for these poor kids. ORTHODONTICS is the last thing needed for the "underserved". If he was truly charitable why don't he require his OEC grads to work for in a general dental office providing general dental care for 3 of those seven years in inner cities and indian reservations? better yet open up a privately funded dental school where graduates are required to do this for 7 yrs before they are free - and give them full ride scholarships - you'll be hard pressed to find decent arguments against this.

Dork-ork: Your complaints against Dr. Lazarra are ridiculous! This guy is an orthodontist, and so are his OEC grads. Of course his charitable contributions are going to be in the field of orthodontics. I think you are missing the boat on his take of the underserved. There are plenty of working class families that can't afford orthodontics for their children. They are not indigents!!! Obviously he is not going to go to the inner city in a mobile dental van and put brackets on homeless kids! True, there is a need for general dentistry in many populations, but that is something for the general dentists to contribute to...not the orthodontists. I find it hard to believe that you as a practicing orthodontist do not see a need for charity in the field of orthodontics. Your desperate attempts to find fault with Lazarra's intentions need work.

 

[dort-ort]

Dork-ork: Your complaints against Dr. Lazarra are ridiculous! This guy is an orthodontist, and so are his OEC grads. Of course his charitable contributions are going to be in the field of orthodontics. I think you are missing the boat on his take of the underserved. There are plenty of working class families that can't afford orthodontics for their children. They are not indigents!!! Obviously he is not going to go to the inner city in a mobile dental van and put brackets on homeless kids! True, there is a need for general dentistry in many populations, but that is something for the general dentists to contribute to...not the orthodontists. I find it hard to believe that you as a practicing orthodontist do not see a need for charity in the field of orthodontics. Your desperate attempts to find fault with Lazarra's intentions need work.

It figures that you respond to an ancillary comment that I made regarding my personal opinions on Lazarra (who cares about that). When in fact the main point I was making against OEC was the conflict of interest in which corporate funding will bias the integrity and objectiveness of applicant evaluation required for acceptance into their program. That is my main complaint. Period. Everything else I said in my post for all I care can be deleted - it was placed on there so people can see one person's opinion on the subject and do with it as they may. Regarding being a desperate attempt - not at all, just truly stated what I feel -- I am not attempting anything. Everyone has that right.

Isn't it funny you did not return a reasonable argument regarding my statements that corporate funding causes bias in applicant evaluation and the fact that the 7 yrs. of indentured servitude has a detrimental effect on the entire dental community as a whole. Whether this scheme for dental education spreads to other areas of dentistry besides orthodontics or not.

who cares what I think about Lazarra, I bet he's a very nice guy. I will send him a nice christmas card if it makes you happy.

And regarding your comments as follows:

"There are plenty of working class families that can't afford orthodontics for their children. They are not indigents!!! Obviously he is not going to go to the inner city in a mobile dental van and put brackets on homeless kids!"

Yes, it is true that many working class families can't afford orthodontics for their children. Well that can be said for everything else that's ELECTIVE in society. No one is going to die from crooked teeth. However, if you don't have teeth due to loss from rampant caries this will greatly diminish quality of life. So if Lazzara really was a nice guy with his boat load of cash, he should invest it into opening a dental school that will give full ride scholarships to students willing to work for seven years in underserved areas as a requirement on gaining acceptance. Who cares about treating the underserved with orthodontics when we should be worrying about saving teeth first. And by the way for kids in impoverished or indigent communities there are state funding for ortho-its called MEDICAID. And if Lazzara was really a nice guy, yes he should bring a mobile van and put brackets on inner city kids. This would be one way he can show his concern for the underserved.

Bottom line is this: take out the requirement that you have to work at an OEC office for seven yrs after graduation then there will be no legitimate issues against OEC. If they do this their on equal terms with all other traditional ortho programs.

best of luck.

 

[marmoreus]

Shopaholic are you for real? You sound so naive about the whole thing I wouldn't be surprised if you are joking.

For an ortho applicant your numbers suck. Of course you must already be aware of that. These programs don't care about numbers--they aren't going to attract too many applicants with competetive numbers. They want people desperate and naive enough to sign on the dotted line--end of story.

Side note: Survey after survey reveals practicing orthodontists have capacity to start 20% more cases than they do without extending hours, staff, etc. There is no shortage of orthodontists. This argument is entirely without basis in fact. If the demand were greater the currently practicing orthos would be starting more cases.

Second side note: Every ortho resident could start up a practice right out of school if that is what they want to do. This is largely irrelevant, however, given that there are plenty of practices to purchase or buy into from retiring orthos. Working for a few years so you can buy into a practice makes no sense if you understand how it works.

I can't believe people are so dim witted as to believe Lazarra's rationale for doing what he's doing. It's like the "Emperor's New Orthodontics Program." Can your average fool not figure out what's going on? There is no defending these programs. You can rationalize all you want.

 

[dort-ort]

Shopaholic are you for real? You sound so naive about the whole thing I wouldn't be surprised if you are joking.

For an ortho applicant your numbers suck. Of course you must already be aware of that. These programs don't care about numbers--they aren't going to attract too many applicants with competetive numbers. They want people desperate and naive enough to sign on the dotted line--end of story.

Side note: Survey after survey reveals practicing orthodontists have capacity to start 20% more cases than they do without extending hours, staff, etc. There is no shortage of orthodontists. This argument is entirely without basis in fact. If the demand were greater the currently practicing orthos would be starting more cases.

Second side note: Every ortho resident could start up a practice right out of school if that is what they want to do. This is largely irrelevant, however, given that there are plenty of practices to purchase or buy into from retiring orthos. Working for a few years so you can buy into a practice makes no sense if you understand how it works.

I can't believe people are so dim witted as to believe Lazarra's rationale for doing what he's doing. It's like the "Emperor's New Orthodontics Program." Can your average fool not figure out what's going on? There is no defending these programs. You can rationalize all you want.

Marmoreus, I agree with what you say. Obviously shopaholic's academic stats are below par ("I'd have to say that my stats may or may not be the norm. GPA 3.1, rank 50/70, 86 part 1") and would unlikely be competitive for any traditional orthodontic programs. It explains why he interviewed at only Colorado and Jacksonville. However I would not bash him for his cander. He should be applauded for honestly posting his stats. If he wasn't candid, this may lead to misguided views as well as blurr the opinions of those who may use these threads or postings to formulate their own views on the subject of OEC. More importantly, many may use these post to base their decisions regarding career choices. Kinda unfortunate but what you gonna do.

 

[marmoreus]

OK. Shop, I admire your candor.

Merry Christmas

 

[Geezer99]

No one is going to die from crooked teeth. However, if you don't have teeth due to loss from rampant caries this will greatly diminish quality of life. So if Lazzara really was a nice guy with his boat load of cash, he should invest it into opening a dental school that will give full ride scholarships to students willing to work for seven years in underserved areas as a requirement on gaining acceptance. Who cares about treating the underserved with orthodontics when we should be worrying about saving teeth first. .

D-O: The way I understand you is that you feel that orthodontics does not contribute to quality of life and therefore no attempts should be made to expand a populations access to it, and if it is then it should not be looked at as charitable or "nice". I disagree, but that's fine. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but again, Lazarra is an orthodontist, not a general dentist. When a grocer wants to be charitable, he gives away groceries. When an orthodontist wants to be charitable, he gives away orthodontics. I understand your beef with OEC and it's sponsored schools acceptance policies, but criticizing their charitable acts is making you look bad....give it up.

 

[Jediwendell]

D-O: The way I understand you is that you feel that orthodontics does not contribute to quality of life and therefore no attempts should be made to expand a populations access to it, and if it is then it should not be looked at as charitable or "nice". I disagree, but that's fine. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but again, Lazarra is an orthodontist, not a general dentist. When a grocer wants to be charitable, he gives away groceries. When an orthodontist wants to be charitable, he gives away orthodontics. I understand your beef with OEC and it's sponsored schools acceptance policies, but criticizing their charitable acts is making you look bad....give it up.

In the end, it comes down to whether the government will pay for a large majority of the orthodontic care for the patient level that lazzara is shooting for. OCA will not charge substantially lower fees. They won't be lower than the dental schools, for instance. Probably won't take medicaid. So what the idea is to flood the market with practitioners that are in the end going to see about the same market. So charitable, etc., is probably a pipe dream. Don't think I buy this argument.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

It seems like people are getting upset about the whole signing a contract to work for 7 years. Its no different than what the military does when you go fior the college money....

 

[dort-ort]

D-O: The way I understand you is that you feel that orthodontics does not contribute to quality of life and therefore no attempts should be made to expand a populations access to it, and if it is then it should not be looked at as charitable or "nice". I disagree, but that's fine. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but again, Lazarra is an orthodontist, not a general dentist. When a grocer wants to be charitable, he gives away groceries. When an orthodontist wants to be charitable, he gives away orthodontics. I understand your beef with OEC and it's sponsored schools acceptance policies, but criticizing their charitable acts is making you look bad....give it up.

Listen Geezer - I really am not into throwing verbal punches back and forth and am not going to start doing that with you. I like this forum and from time to time I will put my two cents in - and thats all it is. I've been in the field long enough to know who Lazarra is - that he's an orthodontist and many other things about him. And I also know how orthodontics contribute to the quality of life so don't banter crap like that to me. I've treated thousands of cases and have given away treatment to those that could not afford it and have seen how ortho can improves the quality of life.

If you like the whole idea of OEC and feel its a good thing. And you like what Lazarra is doing I don't have any problem with that. Its your perogative. Go with it. No harm and no foul.

When you're in the orthodontic profession and talk to hundreds of others about issues (such as OEC) that will determine the direction of your beloved profession you get a deeper understanding of the issues. And that's what I try to convey.

As far as Lazarra and his charitable orthodontic contribution - I will also try to explain myself again. It is lip service. Why don't you ask him if his OEC offices where all his graduates are to be working will accept medicaid patients. And ask him will these offices be located in impoverished underserved communities providing orthodontic care at a reduced cost? Ask him how many cases will be treated at no charge? The majority of these kids will likely have poor oral hygiene and decayed teeth - ask him (since he is a nice guy) if he will provide funds to help take care of this (more important need) prior to orthodontic treatment. Ask him if he will provide charitable contribution to improve the oral health of kids in improverished communities so they could be good candidates to recieve orthodontic care at one of his offices.

If he answers yes to any of these -- then my opinion that he is giving lip service is wrong. So I hope that helps you understand my point. And that way you don't have to keep repeating yourself over and over.

 

[texas_dds]

woah this is nothing like the military
lets not be confused about that

 

[shopaholic]

woah this is nothing like the military
lets not be confused about that

I also think that OEC is similar to the military in that both pay for tuition and living stipend, both have a contract which requires you to work for them for a specified length of time, and both have no say in school curriculum. The difference is that the military has no influence on who gains acceptance, whereas I think OEC does. OEC claims that there is no corporate influence on admissions, and I don't think anyone can prove otherwise. However, it's hard to believe that I got in on my own. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't...but let's face it, my stats are really bad.

 

[Geezer99]

OEC claims that there is no corporate influence on admissions, and I don't think anyone can prove otherwise. However, it's hard to believe that I got in on my own. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't...but let's face it, my stats are really bad.

There may be no corporate influence on individual acceptances, but the controversy lies in the fact that they have to accept a certain number of applicants who have signed an OEC contract. You definetely got your OEC scholarship on your own, but your stats would likely keep you out of a traditional residency.(Your stat's aren't really bad...only compared to the traditional ortho applicant)

As far as the verbal bantering that carries on in this forum....I have to say that I LOVE IT!!! I have respect for everyone in the dental field but the arguments are what makes reading this forum interesting. I could really care less about what everyones favorite procedure is, or what their pet names for instruments are. The topic of OEC has proven to be the best thread to read and participate in. I admit that I may sound like an idiot sometimes, but it's all fun. Keep it up (Bring it on!). OH, and merry christmas!

 

[agaex]

Recently I've been reading posts about the OEC program. From what I've heard, there are a lot of baseless arguments and uninformed statements. I agree with dort-ort that the only real argument against the OEC is the contract term. But for some people, that may be the best option. Under the OEC program, schooling is paid for and a base salary is guaranteed in exchange for working for 7 years under contract. While the thought of getting out and starting one's own practice right when you graduate out of dental school is the main goal for most, there are many potential pitfalls to doing so.

First, there's a lot of work involved when starting a practice. THat's obvious. The same goes for taking over someone else's practice, but not to that much extent. So similar to military scholarships, and state help programs, the OEC gives the opportunity to get in the system, get real comfortable, and then have a great understanding of how a practice really works. Just because you get a doctorate in dentistry, or even a masters in orthodontics, it does not guarantee success. Some may feel comfortable going heads first, but for others, a program to show you the system makes sense.

Seven year contract? Yes, you will make less, but 150K is nothing to bat your eyes at. The days of 3 day weeks, and 500K a year income for orthodonists are numbered. Current orthodonists, or even the ortho students, don't like the OEC program specifically because that means less money for them. It's not because of poor training, less education, or working for a private firm like Lazarra, it's because the OEC is going to start churning out equally trained and equally competent orthodonists who will then begin to fill up the market.

What does this mean? This means lower prices for consumers, more highly trained orthodonists due to the increase in competition. It's simple economics. But this also means less income for the more "established" orthodonists or the current students who had pictures of short work weeks and lots of personal disposable income. That's why they feel that the OEC is a threat to them. But the fact remains that nothing is forever, and orthodonists are due for a reality check if they believe they can still control the pricing on how much ortho treatment costs.

Walmart should have taught us a lesson that competition rules all, and that lower prices due to that competition is best for consumers. Lower prices, better quality, and happier consumers. Isn't that what the health profession is about??

 

[cougardent]

I think agaex is mostly right. Most pre-ortho dental students and current orthodontists wouldn't be complaining as much if a few schools or even every school designated one current spot for an OEC scholarship. It's the fact that the number of orthodontists is increasing nationwide by 10 to 20% every year. This can have a significant effect on the bottom line.

It is pretty screwed up when a private company - not even the government- touting access to care rhetoric, is able to talk schools into more residents or founding a program around them. That's the crazy thing about it, it's not just a scholarship that current residents can apply for, they are basing whole programs around OEC! It would be like Sears Dental approaching the new school in Arizona before it got started and saying, "We’ll give you the money to start a school, but we want a say in who gets in and the majority or everyone needs to work for us for 7 years." I'm honestly surprised these kinds of programs are even allowed. I haven't heard or know if these OEC programs will receive full accreditation?

It’s especially hard to hear about this stuff for those of us who are applying to next years spots. It makes the thought of going into ortho a little more unpredictable.

 

[Firm]

Great post AGAEX, I couldn't say it better!

 

[dort-ort]

Recently I've been reading posts about the OEC program. From what I've heard, there are a lot of baseless arguments and uninformed statements. I agree with dort-ort that the only real argument against the OEC is the contract term. But for some people, that may be the best option. Under the OEC program, schooling is paid for and a base salary is guaranteed in exchange for working for 7 years under contract. While the thought of getting out and starting one's own practice right when you graduate out of dental school is the main goal for most, there are many potential pitfalls to doing so.

First, there's a lot of work involved when starting a practice. THat's obvious. The same goes for taking over someone else's practice, but not to that much extent. So similar to military scholarships, and state help programs, the OEC gives the opportunity to get in the system, get real comfortable, and then have a great understanding of how a practice really works. Just because you get a doctorate in dentistry, or even a masters in orthodontics, it does not guarantee success. Some may feel comfortable going heads first, but for others, a program to show you the system makes sense.

Seven year contract? Yes, you will make less, but 150K is nothing to bat your eyes at. The days of 3 day weeks, and 500K a year income for orthodonists are numbered. Current orthodonists, or even the ortho students, don't like the OEC program specifically because that means less money for them. It's not because of poor training, less education, or working for a private firm like Lazarra, it's because the OEC is going to start churning out equally trained and equally competent orthodonists who will then begin to fill up the market.

What does this mean? This means lower prices for consumers, more highly trained orthodonists due to the increase in competition. It's simple economics. But this also means less income for the more "established" orthodonists or the current students who had pictures of short work weeks and lots of personal disposable income. That's why they feel that the OEC is a threat to them. But the fact remains that nothing is forever, and orthodonists are due for a reality check if they believe they can still control the pricing on how much ortho treatment costs.

Walmart should have taught us a lesson that competition rules all, and that lower prices due to that competition is best for consumers. Lower prices, better quality, and happier consumers. Isn't that what the health profession is about??

Agaex, it sounds like your a nice guy and did put some thought in the comments that you made. At least we are in agreement that the 7 yr. indentured servitude thing is the only real legitimate argument against OEC -- the only argument that will prevent full accreditation of these OEC prgrams.

However, seeing as how you started your post by saying "From what I've heard, there are a lot of baseless arguments and uninformed statements," you clearly have done the same.

When you say that OEC is the best option for some, lets see what you are really saying here. Yes its the best option for those who do not have competitive academic profiles to gain acceptance to traditional ortho programs. (now I know there are those that do have good academic profiles and didn't get in - but these people will eventually get accepted sooner or later into a traditional program as long as they continue to apply). Having said that, I would just bet, the majority of people that are in favor of OEC know they didn't do well in dental school and their academic marks just don't measure up in order to rightfully be accepted into traditional ortho programs. Thats ok, there will always be this group of people who want to do ortho and are envious of those that got accepted into the traditional programs. So for those that can't do it the right way, OEC will be your insidious savior. Yes, thats the best and only option for these people I agree.

With regard to your comments that starting your own practice or buying a practice from someone out of school presents severe financial burdens or pitfalls therefore making OEC an attractive option is to put it mildly - baloney. Its true that it requires a lot of financial investment to start your own practice or to buy an existing one. Thats why most ortho grads don't do this. They do whats called associateships. I'm sure you've heard of this but conveniently omitted it in your comments as it would have downplayed your argument for why OEC is good for some people. The nice thing about associateships is that it allows you to not burden yourself financially right out of ortho school. At the same time you can learn the business aspects of running an office. The key point here is that when you sign up for an ortho associateship (having graduated from a traditional ortho program) -- YOU make the call regarding the terms of your contract with the owner orthodontist. How long the contract and what the financial compensation will be. And you have 100% freedom where you want to do the associateship (limited only by licensure). And in this situation everything is negotiable between you and the owner orthodontist. You do this until you're up on your feet to start your own practice.

This professional freedom to direct your career is obviously signed away with OEC.

So your comments that financial burden right out of school makes OEC a good choice really is just trying to cloud the only real reason why OEC is good --its only good for those that can't get into a traditonal ortho program.
Oh, and its also good for the pockets Jasper Lazarra (what kind a name is Jasper anyways - jasper the friendly ghost?) and his minions.

When it comes down to it, if you can go to a traditional ortho program finish out and do an associateship making as much, most likely more, never less than what OEC is going to give you and have 100% freedom to direct your own professional growth and career, why would anyone do OEC besides the fact that they can't get into a traditional ortho program.


With regard to OEC being just like military, I disagree. The military has no profit motive. They have so many spots open each year and if they can't find qualified individuals they don't have to fill those spots. In this way they are not undermining their application process when evaluating candidates as regulated by the ADA in order to be fully accredited. Also when you are finished with the military program you will be serving in military bases treating military families - in a closed system that does not get influence by corporate profit motive.

next...

Again talking about misinformation and baseless arguments - 500k on 3 day work week - give me a break dude. If I wanted that I would have become a plastic surgeon or an endodontist instead. From another post:

Originally Posted by JakeMUSC
One of the dentists I shadowed during the past summer was an endodontist, and followed him around and he told me his pre and post work routine as well.
Monday through Thursday. 6:45am wake up. At work and starting on root canals @8am. Lunch from 12pm-1:45pm. Root Canals from 2pm until 5:30pm. Home around 6pm. Golf, family stuff, and relaxation from Thursday @6pm to Monday @6:45am. ohh....and he makes $400, 000 plus!
Of course this is not hard facts and can't be verified (for salary data I would trust the ADA site for the average income of dentists and specialists). If you want my opinion though endodontists and oral surgeons make the most. orthodontists and pedodontists are next. But its very hard to pinpoint anything in this regard since I know a good many general dentists who make much more than any specialist.


As far as the wal-mart crap - you will find just as many feel wal-mart is bad for the US consumers as those that find its good. Their way of business will eventually bring down the US economy - loose american jobs, destroy small town business, and make China the richest and strongest country in the world in 50 yrs. Nevermind - I won't start on politics-- sorry about that.

In the end, Ageax -- when you say OEC may be the best option for some -- yes you are right --- it is the best option (and probably the only) for those that cannot get accepted into a traditional orthodontic program. Although as I have said before, there are many general dentist out there that I know who have done the ortho CE circuit and have limited their practice to ortho only and have done well and have prospered. This would be another option.

I would feel sorry for OEC graduates if for some reason these programs are not approved for full ADA accreditation by the time they graduate. That would be sad. but good luck with that.

And regarding most orthodontists in practice caring about OEC-- they don't --cause by the time OEC makes any impact we'll all be retired. The only ones who their going to impact are the current orthodontic grads. Good luck to you guys, I hope you voice your concerns to the AAO.

my suggestion - go into endo. -- just kidding. maybe not.

best of luck.

 

[cougardent]

Reading this as a D3 applying this coming cycle it's easy to get discouraged. It's scary to think about investing more time and money into something that may end up being a lot more competitive once you graduate. There are some interesting statistics on OEC's website: where they come from I'm not sure, but they are encouraging. Also, I think even if there are more orthodontists graduating every year, the market will adjust. As more people are aware of the benefits of orthodontic treatment and the cost of care decreases there may be an increase in the demand for orthodontic care. All of this is contingent on the idea that OEC doesn't take over the majority of the residency programs in the US. I don't think there needs to be a mass exodus to endo, implants are going to make endo obsolete anyways right?

 

[agaex]

Since you so kindly picked apart my argument, let me do the same for yours. It would seem that you misunderstood the message I was trying to state. OEC is not perfect, and it was formed on the basis of making profit. However, what it is is not important, more than what it means. OEC is a program that essentially tries to privatize part of the orthodontic certification. What does this do? It introduces more competition into orthodontics. Better for consumers because lower prices.

Yes, it is true that some people who seek the OEC program are not as academically qualified, meaning grade-wise, as their peers who gets into traditional ortho programs, but that doesn't mean that with the same training, they cannot perform or outperform those same peers. Case example being, learning on paper does not translate into doing in reality, that's obvious.

Associateships are not as nice as you would think, depending on the contract terms. In some cases, the owner orthodonist will slowly introduce you to patients, meaning no guarantee to make any money at all. In fact, a friend of mine who is in one of those exact associateships you speak of only made 18K in income last year, after expenses. Sounds pretty low? Well as I said before, some contracts are better than others. With OEC, you get a guaranteed salary plus some if you bring in enough business, learn how the business works, and in exchange, you give up 7 years. Again, 150K is still a large amount of money. I'm fairly sure that pretty much all dental students applying to these ortho programs, sans practicing general dent for a few years, have never made a dime close to 150K a year. There are many individuals out there that would die to have a salary like that. So is this an advertisement for OEC? no, it's just showing people what the program offers. In business nothing is guaranteed, not dentists, not orthos, not even medical doctors. Your arguments do not reflect the fact that without experience, the business is likely to fail. Yes associateships do offer you a vision of how the business works, but you don't make any of the practice decisions, in terms of the money. The sole role of the owner orthodonist is to show you some ropes, and then sell out later. Whether the business runs or flys, means nothing to them. OEC is also similar in that, but instead, you get more direct control because the practice you've been essentially running for 7 years, you get the option to buy that practice for your own.

I'll say it again, OEC is not for everyone. But to say that you're better off with an associateship, that's also not for everyone. Yes you get the choice to leave anytime, and go anywhere your license allows, but without the knowledge of the system, the odds are already against you.

"And in this situation everything is negotiable between you and the owner orthodontist. You do this until you're up on your feet to start your own practice. "

Let's just say the owner orthodontist will probably not be too readily to give you a very nice portion of salary. Like I said, you don't get to take over their stuff, the owner decides who you get, and how many you get, based on how much work they want to do. Other than a little bit of moving space, which is also negociable with OEC, this is no different. Again, this only means that it's not for everyone.

When I state the comment about military scholarships, I only meant it as a reference of options that are available to dental students, not an alternate. having said that, let's get it out of our system....

Lazarra is doing this for money, yes profit for him. But what is this doing? His program is churning out just as qualified orthodontists as traditional programs, equaling higher quality, and lower prices for consumers. Having said, people tend to say that greed and profit is what is pushing this program, not helping people. But there's the catch. Nearly every development and achievement ever created was based on profit and money. All of our great technology including this wonderful forum? based on money. Profit and money making drives creativity and development. We go from something like American Airlines, which used to rule the skies, to something like JetBlue, which if you've ever had the chance to fly JetBlue, it seems decades more modern, and CHEAPER too accomplishing the same task.

"Again talking about misinformation and baseless arguments - 500k on 3 day work week - give me a break dude. If I wanted that I would have become a plastic surgeon or an endodontist instead."

This is what I like to call a generalization. Orthodonists are VERY well paid for what work they do, in the time alotted. Your comparison to an endodontist or oral surgeon, negate the fact of how many years of extra training you need. Also, the increase in liability for all of those other professions, is staggering. Ortho is noninvasive, with chances of injury or mistake being quite little. I won't even comment on the other two.

"As far as the wal-mart crap - you will find just as many feel wal-mart is bad for the US consumers as those that find its good. Their way of business will eventually bring down the US economy - loose american jobs, destroy small town business, and make China the richest and strongest country in the world in 50 yrs. Nevermind - I won't start on politics-- sorry about that."

You didn't read my comment correctly. Walmart is a giant with price controlling powers. How do other chains survive, like Target, BestBuy, and Dell? They innovate and remain creative. In order to compete, businesses need to keep innovating, keep creating, and keep developing, otherwise they will fail. People believe that Walmart will take over the world and push out competition. But look at Microsoft, the airline industry, even records companies. Similar businesses with better ideas are still opening. Newer technology, better ideas, more competition means comsumers will win in the end. Example, Montegomery Wards "was" the oldest mail order company(nearly 128 years), with as many stores to boot. But they didn't move along with the times, failed to innovate, and ended up bankrupt. Wards no longer exists. In business nothing lasts forever if there is competition.
PS. In the next two generations, China will have a shift to Capitalism from whatever it is now. The sheer amount of money flowing into the country, along with its entrance into the WTO, guarantees it. But like with business, the USA will continue its dominance in the world because we will not sit by idly for 50 years doing nothing. We will continue to innovate, create, and develop.

People in orthodontics, student or practice, are in danger of the same fate. They believe they can still control the pricing. Sellers are in control, up until there is enough competition, where then the buyers take over. While OEC is not perfect, it is most certainly not the last of its kind. The first is never perfect, but it is the first. There will be other similar programs to follow, which fix some of the shortfalls, but there will always be criticism.

Final word being again, OEC is not for everyone. It is an option, and a very good option in some cases. OEC is a for profit organization, but its concept will fuel better treatment and care, as well as quality for people. People tend to believe that Lazarra is such a bad guy for "robbing" the true income of orthos. But in my opinion, orthos shouldn't make as much money as they do now for the work that they do. 6 years ago, my braces for 4 years cost 3-4K. Today, that cost is around 5-6K. I highly doubt there's been a significant advancement in ortho to warrant such an increase. The concept of OEC will lower the overall cost of ortho treatment.


Sorry about my rant peoples, but this post is just to show that OEC is a viable option, with some restrictions that the applicant needs to think about. It's not perfect, but it's existance is necesary to force change in a relic industry.

 

[agaex]

Reading this as a D3 applying this coming cycle it's easy to get discouraged. It's scary to think about investing more time and money into something that may end up being a lot more competitive once you graduate. There are some interesting statistics on OEC's website: where they come from I'm not sure, but they are encouraging. Also, I think even if there are more orthodontists graduating every year, the market will adjust. As more people are aware of the benefits of orthodontic treatment and the cost of care decreases there may be an increase in the demand for orthodontic care. All of this is contingent on the idea that OEC doesn't take over the majority of the residency programs in the US. I don't think there needs to be a mass exodus to endo, implants are going to make endo obsolete anyways right?

Please don't be discouraged. Continue with your goal of orthodontics, or whatever it may be. Best of luck! And don't worry, as competitive as things may get, you'll still be sitting quite comfortably in the end.

 

[Firm]

dort-ort Quote
"When you say that OEC is the best option for some, lets see what you are really saying here. Yes its the best option for those who do not have competitive academic profiles to gain acceptance to traditional ortho programs. (now I know there are those that do have good academic profiles and didn't get in - but these people will eventually get accepted sooner or later into a traditional program as long as they continue to apply). "

Dort-ort,
You keep trying to make the point that the residents in the OEC programs are all less qualified than the residents at traditional programs, I believe that you mentioned this three times. Although there are some OEC residents that would not have gained acceptance to traditional programs without help from influential parents, the majority of the residents are highly qualified, choosing OEC programs because of location. Most dental residents choose residencies on location because of family, the OEC programs are no different. Most of the OEC residents have been in private practice for a while, which adds to the program. Only time will tell how successful these programs are.

 

[dort-ort]

dort-ort Quote
"When you say that OEC is the best option for some, lets see what you are really saying here. Yes its the best option for those who do not have competitive academic profiles to gain acceptance to traditional ortho programs. (now I know there are those that do have good academic profiles and didn't get in - but these people will eventually get accepted sooner or later into a traditional program as long as they continue to apply). "

Dort-ort,
You keep trying to make the point that the residents in the OEC programs are all less qualified than the residents at traditional programs, I believe that you mentioned this three times. Although there are some OEC residents that would not have gained acceptance to traditional programs without help from influential parents, the majority of the residents are highly qualified, choosing OEC programs because of location. Most dental residents choose residencies on location because of family, the OEC programs are no different. Most of the OEC residents have been in private practice for a while, which adds to the program. Only time will tell how successful these programs are.

Firm. If you feel OEC programs are a good choice for you - its ok - you go for it. But I must absolutely disagree with you on your statement that most dental residents choose residencies based on location and family. Thats total bull. Can you really be saying something so unrealistic? Come on. Please you sound much more smarter than that.

Most if not all dental residents (as far as traditional ortho residents - for that matter any specialty or GPR or AEGD or whatever) choose the residencies based on which ever one they get into --- period. No ifs ands or buts to this. Location and family is secondary. In the application process you apply to as many residencies as possible to increase your chance of acceptance into one of them and if you only get accepted to a program not of your native state -- are you going to tell me that that person is going to deny the acceptance and wait till next year and reapply until they get accepted into a program of their native state or when they are accepted into a program that is a close to their family. -- Give me a break -- thats not how it works.

Why don't you ask your dental school colleagues or others that have applied. Location and vacinity to family is secondary. Please I'll let you hit me over the head with a stick if you find that what I am saying is not reality. Or for that matter why don't you just read the threads regarding ortho -- can't you see that where ever you are accepted thats where you will go. Of course if you are accepted to a program that is of a location you like you will choose that one. But how many of us ever had that choice.

If you feel OEC is a good program for you, again I say its ok. But for 95% of the dental grads that want to do an ortho residency -- I would bet my house that if they were able to gain acceptance into a traditional ortho program they would choose that over the OEC.

As far as OEC resident's academic qualifications -- If you averaged all the traditional ortho residents profiles vs. that of OEC --- the average academic profiles of the traditional ortho profiles would without a doubt be higher than OEC. Even when you take into account (when averaging) that there are much higher number of traditional ortho residents than OEC. Of course there is absolutely no way to prove 100% accuracy either way without asking every single ortho resident (both traditional and OEC) for their academic profiles and actually do the math. But being in the field and actually having taught at a traditional ortho program and interviewed prospective ortho residents I can speak with confidence. I really don't understand why I even have to carry on bantering about this because any reasonable thinking person could see this. Sure you can say that there may be 1 or 2 people in the OEC program that will have a better academic profile but that is absolutely the exception and not the rule.

To illustrate the only example of an OEC applicant on this forum (compare to the many posted academic profiles of traditional ortho applicants) -- did you happen to see shopaholic's academic's marks in one of his earlier posts? He will be attending an OEC program -- I have already said congratulations to him and best of luck to him -- and I bet he's a great guy (or girl) but his marks were as follows (nothing against him and I commend him for being cadid) - from shopaholic's earlier posts:

"First off, I'd have to say that my stats may or may not be the norm. GPA 3.1, rank 50/70, 86 part 1. I interviewed at Colorado and Jacksonville, and both didn't seem that interested in my stats. Instead, I think they were more interested in students that were diverse, mature, stable, and truly wanted to be there"

"OEC claims that there is no corporate influence on admissions, and I don't think anyone can prove otherwise. However, it's hard to believe that I got in on my own. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't...but let's face it, my stats are really bad."

"I applied to my own school's ortho program expecting at least a courtesy interview, but instead only got a courtesy letdown. They brought me in and told me that I was not going to get an interview and that OEC would be a better option for me if I wanted."

The above is what shopaholic said himself and I didn't take that out of context. I can tell you that I agree with him that those marks (although could be considered good) would be subpar compared to many traditional ortho applicants. And shopaholic even said this himself. (Again, in shopaholic's case he understands the negative issues with OEC and freely defines this in his posts without trying to make comments implying that OEC is some how better or on an equal playing field with traditional ortho programs--because they are not for reasons I have already gone into great lengths about). As far as OEC's education being just as good, better, or worse than traditional ortho programs. I have never once (and you can check my posts) said that traditional programs were better or worse. However, you and others on this thread have tried to imply that these programs will train equally good or better ortho residents than traditional programs. I don't believe you can say that for any programs OEC or otherwise. And I have said before, academic superiority (or not) of traditional program is not and cannot be used as a legitimate argument against OEC programs. Only their method of applicant acceptance -- requiring residents to sign an absolute 7 yr sole servitude with OEC before they are let into the program -- and how this undermines the integrity and objectivity of the application process as defined by the ADA's regulations for specialty programs needed for that program to be fully ADA accredited.

This is the issue under conflict and close scrutiny when the ADA accreditation committee rules whether to fully accreditate Colorado and Jacksonville ( as well as UNLV in the future). Only time will tell. We'll see what happens. I am sure there are lobbies for both sides.

I said before it will be sad for those OEC grads if full accreditation does not happen.

Ok anyways Firm, I will get off my soapbox. Its nice to dialogue with you though. I do find it interesting to posts on here when I have some time off.

best of luck.

P.S.- by the way, tell Agaex I will respond to his post a little later -- got to go do my requisite 3 mile run for the week.

 

[Qbankungfumasta]

this thread was soooo nice...now, all we talk about is money, walmart, LazzZzzZzZzzzzzara...it's getting boring. And what about those long posts?
People, just worry about learning ortho and graduating eventually, there is room for everybody in this business.
I realize it is a concern to most practicioners, but we have to wait to see what happens in the end.
Let's talk about something useful shall we?
Who's moving to Boston next year? I am starting my residency there and will probably need to room with somebody.

 

[dort-ort]

this thread was soooo nice...now, all we talk about is money, walmart, LazzZzzZzZzzzzzara...it's getting boring. And what about those long posts?
People, just worry about learning ortho and graduating eventually, there is room for everybody in this business.
I realize it is a concern to most practicioners, but we have to wait to see what happens in the end.
Let's talk about something useful shall we?
Who's moving to Boston next year? I am starting my residency there and will probably need to room with somebody.

Ok. how about -- Gianelly SUCKS.

 

[dort-ort]

Ok. how about -- Gianelly SUCKS.

just kiddin dude.

 

[Firm]

Firm. If you feel OEC programs are a good choice for you - its ok - you go for it. But I must absolutely disagree with you on your statement that most dental residents choose residencies based on location and family. Thats total bull. Can you really be saying something so unrealistic? Come on. Please you sound much more smarter than that.

Most if not all dental residents (as far as traditional ortho residents - for that matter any specialty or GPR or AEGD or whatever) choose the residencies based on which ever one they get into --- period. No ifs ands or buts to this. Location and family is secondary. In the application process you apply to as many residencies as possible to increase your chance of acceptance into one of them and if you only get accepted to a program not of your native state -- are you going to tell me that that person is going to deny the acceptance and wait till next year and reapply until they get accepted into a program of their native state or when they are accepted into a program that is a close to their family. -- Give me a break -- thats not how it works.

Why don't you ask your dental school colleagues or others that have applied. Location and vacinity to family is secondary. Please I'll let you hit me over the head with a stick if you find that what I am saying is not reality. Or for that matter why don't you just read the threads regarding ortho -- can't you see that where ever you are accepted thats where you will go. Of course if you are accepted to a program that is of a location you like you will choose that one. But how many of us ever had that choice.

QUOTE]


1.)Most of the people that I know chose their dental residency because of location. They applied to programs in their region, and went to whatever program accepted them in their region. Only one guy that I went to school with chose another region. 2.) The dudes name is Gasper Lazzara, not Jasper.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

does anyone know what the ortho match rate is for loma linda and michigan dental students?

 

[noodletw]

This tread is getting quite interesting, especially with the back-and-forth bashings and arguements on OEC and its ortho programs. Just from reading all of those posts, I would like to know more of OEC ortho programs and judge them myself. Could any of you provide some links to those programs? I have tried searching for them through yahoo but nothing has really came up (for instance, I did attempt to look for Jacksonville and Colorado university's ortho programs but found no luck).

 

[Jone]

http://www.orthoeducation.com/home.html

This tread is getting quite interesting, especially with the back-and-forth bashings and arguements on OEC and its ortho programs. Just from reading all of those posts, I would like to know more of OEC ortho programs and judge them myself. Could any of you provide some links to those programs? I have tried searching for them through yahoo but nothing has really came up (for instance, I did attempt to look for Jacksonville and Colorado university's ortho programs but found no luck).

 

[ecrdoubles15]

http://www.orthoeducation.com/home.html

does anyoen know how many people Loma linda sends to ortho programs?

 

[Jone]

for what year? and what's the point? at my school 6 people got into ortho in 2002. then in 2003, only 1 person got in. it's foolish to choose a dental school based on your thinking that it will increase your odds of matching into ortho.

if you're so curious, why dont you call them and ask?

does anyoen know how many people Loma linda sends to ortho programs?

 

[cooldoc_2004]

From what I heard from current Ortho residents during my interviews, some other programs are considering being funded by OEC.
Please give your views about similar things heard by others. I think these programs are really going to hurt the salaries of the future ortho grads. With the kind of hard work people put to get into ortho, definitely they love the field, but they would also be like to be compensated at a much higher level than the easier specialties.
Also with the Invisalign GPs taking up to 50% of the Ortho cases, do you think Ortho would be a very sought after specialty in maybe the next 5 years ? I have my doubts.
I am sure that the OEC programs will get the full accreditation - because the programs which have accepted such huge money from OEC to setup the framework for the program will do anything to everything to get the accreditation.
I don't understand one thing. If Dr. Lazarra was just an Orthodontist who came up with the FAAB system, how the hell did he make such ridiculous amount of money to support these programs. Is it that he is just a representative of the OCA??
People this area of dentistry needs something to be done very soon or else the future does not look very bright.

 

[ItsGavinC]

From what I heard from current Ortho residents during my interviews, some other programs are considering being funded by OEC.
Please give your views about similar things heard by others. I think these programs are really going to hurt the salaries of the future ortho grads. With the kind of hard work people put to get into ortho, definitely they love the field, but they would also be like to be compensated at a much higher level than the easier specialties.
Also with the Invisalign GPs taking up to 50% of the Ortho cases, do you think Ortho would be a very sought after specialty in maybe the next 5 years ? I have my doubts.

I don't want to offend you, and you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, but there are SO many ridiculous comments in these few short paragraphs that I have trouble convincing myself that you are serious and not just a troll.

"Easier specialties"? LOL.

If you aren't trolling, and I'm not saying that you are, then please clarify some of your comments because I'm not clear on your points. Essentially, it seems you are worried about: money, salary, and compensation.

 

[aphistis]

for what year? and what's the point? at my school 6 people got into ortho in 2002. then in 2003, only 1 person got in. it's foolish to choose a dental school based on your thinking that it will increase your odds of matching into ortho.

if you're so curious, why dont you call them and ask?

Bah! Foolishness! A school's ability to match you into ortho residency should be the only factor receiving consideration when choosing a dental school. If you're foolish enough to think ortho isn't the only dental career worth a hill of beans, you haven't been on SDN long enough!

 

[Geezer99]

From what I heard from current Ortho residents during my interviews, some other programs are considering being funded by OEC.
Please give your views about similar things heard by others. I think these programs are really going to hurt the salaries of the future ortho grads. With the kind of hard work people put to get into ortho, definitely they love the field, but they would also be like to be compensated at a much higher level than the easier specialties.

You are a perfect example of why OEC is absolutely necessary to advance the field of orthodontics. For you to hold this view, you must not consider ortho as a field of health care at all. Please leave your desire to make alot of money, and your condescending attitude that you somehow deserve more money because you got into ortho, out of this argument. Agaex pretty much killed all legitimate arguments against OEC in this forum (Way to go!), and now all that are left are greedy concerns that orthodontists might not make as much money in the future. OEC is going to introduce competition, and yes, this will hurt those orthodontists that do not innovate and change to remain competitive. The ultimate winner is the consumer, with orthodontics becoming more readily available and affordable.

 

[kato999]

I just found out that one of the orthodontists who is on Board in charge of accrediting orthodontic residency programs voted NOT to accredit the Colorado Orthodontic Residency.

I can not give more info than that, but I can state it is accurate first hand.

I do not know how the others on the board voted.

 

[texas_dds]

I REALLY hope that is true

 

[texas_dds]

any word on unlv?

 

[ItsGavinC]

I just found out that one of the orthodontists who is on Board in charge of accrediting orthodontic residency programs voted NOT to accredit the Colorado Orthodontic Residency.

I can not give more info than that, but I can state it is accurate first hand.

I do not know how the others on the board voted.

Did this program already begin? I thought it was on track to begin in Fall of 04, but I haven't followed it closely.

 

[kato999]

i think you are correct, I am pretty sure it began in fall 04. I am guessing the vote was on initial creditation, or something.

I know JU got initial creditation, but I am not sure about Colorado.

 

[jpollei]

for those who matched, are you going to pursue a Masters if it is an option in your program?

why or why not?

My understanding is that residents don't qualify for gov't aid (ie Stafford loans, etc) if the program is not a degree-granting program. Anyone heard otherwise?

 

[Profchaos]

Reading these posts, I found myself quite confused now. Columbia's marketing themselves as a specialty school but look at the datas.
They had 7 out 15 matched into ortho this year. About 10% of the 75 class size, however; it doesn't look like it's got a lot of advantage against Nova 7/7, Temple 5/6... The chance of getting a less than 50% acceptance rate is scary too. What do you guys see?

 

[delicious]

Reading these posts, I found myself quite confused now. Columbia's marketing themselves as a specialty school but look at the datas.
They had 7 out 15 matched into ortho this year. About 10% of the 75 class size, however; it doesn't look like it's got a lot of advantage against Nova 7/7, Temple 5/6... The chance of getting a less than 50% acceptance rate is scary too. What do you guys see?

Where'd you get that info on Columbia Profchaos? It's not in the Match List 2005 thread....

 

[ORTHO-DMD]

Columbia sucks, I feel sorry for you if you went there hoping to get into specialty. I know their ortho program is tough but their dental school education is subpar. I have 3 friends who go there so I know this is true. Yes, it is true what Profchaos said, only 7 out of 15 got into ortho. Penn did better but didn't do so hot either. 10 out of 14 matched (actually one got in to Minnesota which is a non-match program). I say 14 but I'm sure there are other foreign trained students who are doing the PASS program at Penn who applied without telling anyone and did not get in. At one point rumors had it that close to 40 students (out of 94 regular + ~45 PASS students) at Penn were applying to ortho. Anyways, does anyone know how good and hard to get into the hospital-based ortho programs (like Montefiore and DC's Children's National) are?