Ortho Match Day

[mike3kgt]

You are a perfect example of why OEC is absolutely necessary to advance the field of orthodontics. For you to hold this view, you must not consider ortho as a field of health care at all. Please leave your desire to make alot of money, and your condescending attitude that you somehow deserve more money because you got into ortho, out of this argument. Agaex pretty much killed all legitimate arguments against OEC in this forum (Way to go!), and now all that are left are greedy concerns that orthodontists might not make as much money in the future. OEC is going to introduce competition, and yes, this will hurt those orthodontists that do not innovate and change to remain competitive. The ultimate winner is the consumer, with orthodontics becoming more readily available and affordable.

Okay, if this were true (which part of may be... so I am not COMPLETELY discrediting your statements) then let's consider the following:

Problem: There are too few dentists graduating and too many dying/retiring dentists in the USA!

Solution: Let's create an independent hygiene practitioner program, that way, many of the hygienists can practice right next door to us, charge almost the same fees, and the patients can receive treatment in restorative care, extractions, and oh yeah, let's not forget cleanings.

Problem: As a (ficticious report) released last week, scientists have proven that whitening your teeth is a medical necessity, and in denying patients the right to whiten, it harms the entire population.

Solution: Dentists charge too much for whitening, so let's allow anybody to set up a kiosk at your local Target to take impressions, send to laboratories that do not require degrees to take orders, and allow them to independently sell to the public. Oh yeah, let's set the price at $29.99 for a custom tray with whitening material because it allows for 2% profit.

Problem: Public surveys of the hygienists that have been allowed to open independent practices and provide restorative care show they are opening most of their practices in wealthy, urban areas near other dentists. Many hygienists are doing cosmetic cases of restorative care and not focusing on hygiene in underserved rural areas.

Solution: Politicians and their intimate knowledge of dentistry conclude that the ONLY way to fix this is to then allow dental assistant practitioner programs and allow them to independently practice assisting and provide provisional restorations for everybody at the local airport.

Okay, enough ranting... my point?

It's happened in medicine, the PA/NP/CRNA programs that popped up because of the "disparity in access to care" has created a situation where doctors are consistently seen less valuable and thus fees/compensation goes down.

What it all comes down to is $$$ and stature. Other groups want a piece (Hygienists/NP/PAs) but it comes down to the organizations (ADA/AGD) to put a stop to these demands.

OEC programs are a stepping stone towards this scenario. The capitalistic idea of OEC programs promoting increased supply to supplant the increased demand is somewhat interesting in concept. I don't think, however, that the programs represent the best for the integrity of the profession of dentistry. Focusing on the "consumer" in dentistry rather than the "patient" can be a slippery slope. The more the profession allows others to regulate/kick us around the more we will give up. Go ADA!

OEC is in relatively uncharted waters... to my knowledge, I do not know of a residency system in medicine that works in this fashion. Will keep my attention towards the programs and see what happens.

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[gryffindor]

Anyways, does anyone know how good and hard to get into the hospital-based ortho programs (like Montefiore and DC's Children's National) are?

Montefiore: 42 interviews, 6 positions
CNMC: 20 interviews, 2 positions

They both probably get between 150 - 200 applications to sort through. Is that "hard" to get into? I think so.

Both will make you an orthodontist at the end of it, so whether they are "good" programs or not is entirely your opinion.

 

[Qbankungfumasta]

Agaex, it sounds like your a nice guy and did put some thought in the comments that you made. At least we are in agreement that the 7 yr. indentured servitude thing is the only real legitimate argument against OEC -- the only argument that will prevent full accreditation of these OEC prgrams.

However, seeing as how you started your post by saying "From what I've heard, there are a lot of baseless arguments and uninformed statements," you clearly have done the same.

When you say that OEC is the best option for some, lets see what you are really saying here. Yes its the best option for those who do not have competitive academic profiles to gain acceptance to traditional ortho programs. (now I know there are those that do have good academic profiles and didn't get in - but these people will eventually get accepted sooner or later into a traditional program as long as they continue to apply). Having said that, I would just bet, the majority of people that are in favor of OEC know they didn't do well in dental school and their academic marks just don't measure up in order to rightfully be accepted into traditional ortho programs. Thats ok, there will always be this group of people who want to do ortho and are envious of those that got accepted into the traditional programs. So for those that can't do it the right way, OEC will be your insidious savior. Yes, thats the best and only option for these people I agree.

With regard to your comments that starting your own practice or buying a practice from someone out of school presents severe financial burdens or pitfalls therefore making OEC an attractive option is to put it mildly - baloney. Its true that it requires a lot of financial investment to start your own practice or to buy an existing one. Thats why most ortho grads don't do this. They do whats called associateships. I'm sure you've heard of this but conveniently omitted it in your comments as it would have downplayed your argument for why OEC is good for some people. The nice thing about associateships is that it allows you to not burden yourself financially right out of ortho school. At the same time you can learn the business aspects of running an office. The key point here is that when you sign up for an ortho associateship (having graduated from a traditional ortho program) -- YOU make the call regarding the terms of your contract with the owner orthodontist. How long the contract and what the financial compensation will be. And you have 100% freedom where you want to do the associateship (limited only by licensure). And in this situation everything is negotiable between you and the owner orthodontist. You do this until you're up on your feet to start your own practice.

This professional freedom to direct your career is obviously signed away with OEC.

So your comments that financial burden right out of school makes OEC a good choice really is just trying to cloud the only real reason why OEC is good --its only good for those that can't get into a traditonal ortho program.
Oh, and its also good for the pockets Jasper Lazarra (what kind a name is Jasper anyways - jasper the friendly ghost?) and his minions.

When it comes down to it, if you can go to a traditional ortho program finish out and do an associateship making as much, most likely more, never less than what OEC is going to give you and have 100% freedom to direct your own professional growth and career, why would anyone do OEC besides the fact that they can't get into a traditional ortho program.


With regard to OEC being just like military, I disagree. The military has no profit motive. They have so many spots open each year and if they can't find qualified individuals they don't have to fill those spots. In this way they are not undermining their application process when evaluating candidates as regulated by the ADA in order to be fully accredited. Also when you are finished with the military program you will be serving in military bases treating military families - in a closed system that does not get influence by corporate profit motive.

next...

Again talking about misinformation and baseless arguments - 500k on 3 day work week - give me a break dude. If I wanted that I would have become a plastic surgeon or an endodontist instead. From another post:

Originally Posted by JakeMUSC
One of the dentists I shadowed during the past summer was an endodontist, and followed him around and he told me his pre and post work routine as well.
Monday through Thursday. 6:45am wake up. At work and starting on root canals @8am. Lunch from 12pm-1:45pm. Root Canals from 2pm until 5:30pm. Home around 6pm. Golf, family stuff, and relaxation from Thursday @6pm to Monday @6:45am. ohh....and he makes $400, 000 plus!
Of course this is not hard facts and can't be verified (for salary data I would trust the ADA site for the average income of dentists and specialists). If you want my opinion though endodontists and oral surgeons make the most. orthodontists and pedodontists are next. But its very hard to pinpoint anything in this regard since I know a good many general dentists who make much more than any specialist.


As far as the wal-mart crap - you will find just as many feel wal-mart is bad for the US consumers as those that find its good. Their way of business will eventually bring down the US economy - loose american jobs, destroy small town business, and make China the richest and strongest country in the world in 50 yrs. Nevermind - I won't start on politics-- sorry about that.

In the end, Ageax -- when you say OEC may be the best option for some -- yes you are right --- it is the best option (and probably the only) for those that cannot get accepted into a traditional orthodontic program. Although as I have said before, there are many general dentist out there that I know who have done the ortho CE circuit and have limited their practice to ortho only and have done well and have prospered. This would be another option.

I would feel sorry for OEC graduates if for some reason these programs are not approved for full ADA accreditation by the time they graduate. That would be sad. but good luck with that.

And regarding most orthodontists in practice caring about OEC-- they don't --cause by the time OEC makes any impact we'll all be retired. The only ones who their going to impact are the current orthodontic grads. Good luck to you guys, I hope you voice your concerns to the AAO.

my suggestion - go into endo. -- just kidding. maybe not.

best of luck.

Man i just gotta say that there's some people with mad time management skills to be able to write these long emails.
oh by the way OEC mostly sucks because it will flood the market, and i wonder, when they do, will people still want to go into costly ortho programs?
Not mentioning the pain that it is to just achieve a competitive application.

 

[dort-ort]

Man i just gotta say that there's some people with mad time management skills to be able to write these long emails.
oh by the way OEC mostly sucks because it will flood the market, and i wonder, when they do, will people still want to go into costly ortho programs?
Not mentioning the pain that it is to just achieve a competitive application.

Good point regarding why OEC sucks -- so here's another point:

Oh by the way, dental school mostly sucks because hygenists and denturists with their own private practice will flood the market, and I wonder, when they do, will people still want to go into costly dental schools? Not to mention the pain that it is to achieve a competitive dental school application.


Ignorant and short-sited remarks deserve the same. Well I hope a private hygienist office and a denturist opens their office next to you.

And then there are posts reporting how promising and financially rewarding dentistry is because we don't have as much corporate or insurance influence compared to medicine. And because of this dentistry is doing better than medicine. What the crap do you think OEC is dumb-arse, the biggest corporate influence there is -- so why don't you post that in the "dentistry is promising thread". Oh, but because it's not happening for general dental graduates -- who gives a crap. Wait till a private dental school analogous to OEC opens up near your dental school -- we'll see how you like it then.

good day mate.