PA-C to D.O. Bridge passes!!!!!

[JacobSilge]

For a long time, EMEDPA and others here has been stating that MD/DO school is typically ~ 130 weeks whereas PA school is ~ 116 weeks. The implication of these numbers seem to be that its NOT the 15 week difference but the residency (OJT) that makes a difference.

I apologize for my ignorance regarding all PA, MD, and DO training programs, but I am not quite sure where these numbers are coming from. Regarding PA schools, I was under the impression that these are two year programs. Based on the curriculum for Duke University's PA program (the first one that came up on google, maybe it is compressed??), it appears that the program goes from August of year 1 through to August of Year 2, with the month of July off - this would be around 104 weeks, minus a few random weeks of vacation here and there. Do you really go straight through with no breaks whatsoever? I can't imagine that PA students would have to be in class on Christmans day or New Years during preclinical work, but maybe I am wrong. Regardless, this would be still right around 100 weeks assuming no other breaks aside from the winter holidays.

Med School I can speak about with a bit more authority since I'm in it, but ~130 weeks sounds a bit low. Since it goes from August of 1st year to May of 4th year, that would be ~200 weeks. Now if you subtract out 10 weeks between 1st and 2nd year and two months for vacation/interviewing 4th year (that's what we have), you are down to ~182 weeks. Then if you take out the XMas/New Years 2 weeks we got off years 1-3 and the spring break weeks years 1 & 2 we are down to ~174. The only other time I can see that might not be counted is the 6 weeks we had to study for Step I, though I was solidly studying for 5 weeks, which I would consider to be an integral part of my education, and one week for vacation, so that leaves ~173 or ~168, which is still much more than the previously cited ~130 weeks. Are there really other med schools out there where I could have had an additional 9-10 months off? If so, I made a huge mistake coming here...

However, regardless of length, there is no doubt that PA programs are indeed very intense!

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[Socrates25]

You know, I've read EMEDPA bring this up before, and I really want to know where this 130 week number is coming from. Even factoring out time off for interviews/vacation in fourth year, my school ended up about 166 weeks for all four academic years (88 weeks preclinical, 78 clinical). We had two months off in 4th year for interviews/vacation, one month between 3rd and 4th years for vacation/Step 2, one month between 2nd and 3rd year for vacation/Step 1, and a week or two between blocks through 1st and 2nd years.

I'll give you one guess as to where that number is coming from.

I find it amusing that all these PAs who never went to medical school are so intricately versed in exactly how many weeks it takes to complete. BTW, DocNusum is fond of saying that he went to "medical school" even though he's just a PA. Check out his posts on the PA forums.

 

[Socrates25]

I apologize for my ignorance regarding all PA, MD, and DO training programs, but I am not quite sure where these numbers are coming from. Regarding PA schools, I was under the impression that these are two year programs. Based on the curriculum for Duke University's PA program (the first one that came up on google, maybe it is compressed??), it appears that the program goes from August of year 1 through to August of Year 2, with the month of July off - this would be around 104 weeks, minus a few random weeks of vacation here and there. Do you really go straight through with no breaks whatsoever? I can't imagine that PA students would have to be in class on Christmans day or New Years during preclinical work, but maybe I am wrong. Regardless, this would be still right around 100 weeks assuming no other breaks aside from the winter holidays.

Med School I can speak about with a bit more authority since I'm in it, but ~130 weeks sounds a bit low. Since it goes from August of 1st year to May of 4th year, that would be ~200 weeks. Now if you subtract out 10 weeks between 1st and 2nd year and two months for vacation/interviewing 4th year (that's what we have), you are down to ~182 weeks. Then if you take out the XMas/New Years 2 weeks we got off years 1-3 and the spring break weeks years 1 & 2 we are down to ~174. The only other time I can see that might not be counted is the 6 weeks we had to study for Step I, though I was solidly studying for 5 weeks, which I would consider to be an integral part of my education, and one week for vacation, so that leaves ~173 or ~168, which is still much more than the previously cited ~130 weeks. Are there really other med schools out there where I could have had an additional 9-10 months off? If so, I made a huge mistake coming here...

However, regardless of length, there is no doubt that PA programs are indeed very intense!

Dont confuse these guys with actual facts. Now they'll start shifting the goalposts by claiming that they are in school from 7 AM to 8 PM every day whereas MD students get all their afternoons free so therefore the number of hours is "equal"

Yes, they've said that on the PA forums as well.

 

[DocNusum]

You know, I've read EMEDPA bring this up before, and I really want to know where this 130 week number is coming from. Even factoring out time off for interviews/vacation in fourth year, my school ended up about 166 weeks for all four academic years (88 weeks preclinical, 78 clinical). We had two months off in 4th year for interviews/vacation, one month between 3rd and 4th years for vacation/Step 2, one month between 2nd and 3rd year for vacation/Step 1, and a week or two between blocks through 1st and 2nd years.

166 weeks still equal 3 yrs...

Yeah because emedpa and you are such well known experts on the details of medical school curricula. Cite your source, please.

P.S. No, emedpa is NOT a source.

Dont confuse these guys with actual facts. Now they'll start shifting the goalposts by claiming that they are in school from 7 AM to 8 PM every day whereas MD students get all their afternoons free so therefore the number of hours is "equal"

Yes, they've said that on the PA forums as well.

Ha... ha... ha...
Someone's panties/knickers still seem to be waded from getting handed his butt and hat and shown the door on that "other" forum...

While it may actually take 4 yrs to complete a program, according to PHYSICIANS in this thread, it takes ~ 170 weeks of actual work. 170 weeks still isn't 4 yrs regardless of how bad YOU want it to be...

Now I'm attempting to take NOTHING away from you guys, but the reason why I emphasized the "actual" amount of time spent training is because generally when insecure and immature medical students start down the PA bashing road, they often throw out the old "it takes a minimum of 11 yrs of school to become a physician and it ONLY takes 2 yrs to become a PA."

Somehow we are expected to count the 4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs medical school (regardless of whether or not it was actually 170 weeks which is NOT 4 yrs), then the minimum 3 yr residency... While we are expected to not count the pre-PA school education that most PA get when they complete pre-reqs, pre-PA bachelors and masters degrees, or become Nurses, RTs, Paramedics, etc before the 104-116 weeks spent in PA school (excluding breaks/holidays) .

To be clear...
Licensed Physicians are without a doubt better prepared to care for patients than NPs and/or PAs. No argument there.

The problem arises when insecure/immature students discard all rational thought for comforting, emotive, logically flawed premises... you know, the whole gotta hold someone down to feel good about my personal choices thing that high-schoolers seem to be really good at...

Just a few thoughts...

DocNusum

P.s... 170 weeks = 3.2692 yrs which still isn't 4 yrs...

 

[Taurus]

166 weeks still equal 3 yrs...





Ha... ha... ha...
Someone's panties/knickers still seem to be waded from getting handed his butt and hat and shown the door on that "other" forum...

While it may actually take 4 yrs to complete a program, according to PHYSICIANS in this thread, it takes ~ 170 weeks of actual work. 170 weeks still isn't 4 yrs regardless of how bad YOU want it to be...

Now I'm attempting to take NOTHING away from you guys, but the reason why I emphasized the "actual" amount of time spent training is because generally when insecure and immature medical students start down the PA bashing road, they often throw out the old "it takes a minimum of 11 yrs of school to become a physician and it ONLY takes 2 yrs to become a PA."

Somehow we are expected to count the 4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs medical school (regardless of whether or not it was actually 170 weeks which is NOT 4 yrs), then the minimum 3 yr residency... While we are expected to not count the pre-PA school education that most PA get when they complete pre-reqs, pre-PA bachelors and masters degrees, or become Nurses, RTs, Paramedics, etc before the 104-116 weeks spent in PA school (excluding breaks/holidays) .

To be clear...
Licensed Physicians are without a doubt better prepared to care for patients than NPs and/or PAs. No argument there.

The problem arises when insecure/immature students discard all rational thought for comforting, emotive, logically flawed premises... you know, the whole gotta hold someone down to feel good about my personal choices thing that high-schoolers seem to be really good at...

Just a few thoughts...

DocNusum

P.s... 170 weeks = 3.2692 yrs which still isn't 4 yrs...

This is a ******ed argument and I'm not quite sure why people are even bothering to reply.

When people speak of "years" in school, they mean in terms of academic years. When people go to "4 years of college", do they spend every week in class for 4 years straight? Of course not. Any of us here knows that the academic year is broken up into semesters and you get breaks. You will burn people out if you don't give them some time off. Do PA's or NP's go to school for 2 years straight without breaks? Of course not. Compared to many other fields like law or business, you get very little break time in medical school.

Instead of focusing on the weeks, let's talk about the hours. Because it's amount of time you spend doing clinical work per week that matters, not how many weeks. Even as a medical student, you could be pulling in 80 hours a week on rotations like medicine and surgery. How many hours do NP students put in a week? Pitiful number.

Even as a medical student, you will do 5000 hours by the time you graduate. Add on 12,000 hours for a 3 year residency for a total of 17,000 hours.

PA's generally get 2400 hours by the time they graduate.

NP/DNP's get typically 700 or so hours by the time they graduate.

 

[maceo]

I highly doubt it will kill the DNP. Most people that would be willing to get a DNP in the first place wouldn't want to go through the rigors of residency.....
.

not only the rigors of residency.. but the rigors of taking all those hard ass math classes, chemistry classes, physics classes and studying for the mcat.. thats not that easy... you have to buckle down and study your ass off to do well in those classes

 

[corpsmanUP]

Well except for Mark, I guess I am the only other PA-Physician on here. I'm glad to see that a medical school is attempting to shorten the process as it felt really long and rather unnecessary on my end when I did it years back. People probably don't want to hear this, but the bridge program could still be highly successful even being shortened further to 2 full years. One year of didactics, hardcore patho mostly, and then a second year of shortened core rotations and a few electives. 3 years is just still way too long. I think you increase the quality of the candidates by coming up with an exam that shows a rather high degree of clinical competency before you select them. MCAT being a requirement, my personal take would be just require them to finish it! It's a joke of a test for a PA to be taking and means absolutely nothing. I took it before I had even taken organic and physics, scored a 23, and still scored 231/261 on the USMLE's and 708/721/821 on COMLEX's. Anyone who knows test scores knows these scores are at such opposite ends of the spectrum that they cannot possible correlate.

Lastly, I think it's really sad though that you are going to limit half of these PA's to primary care. Truth be told, most PA's that make it this far are way less than challenged by a career in primary care once they make it that far. PA's tend to congregate near the top of medical school classes from the many I have seen in my classes and in residencies in general. No reason in my opinion to force them into a profession they won't enjoy. Use these intelligent minds to make a bigger difference than primary care will allow them to make. How can you force them to do this anyway?

And what will the residency picture be for these PA's? Has anyone thought to wonder if they will be forced to do DO (AOA) residencies? Because I can't imagine an MD (ACGME) program accepting residents who only completed 2.8 years of medical school. You might get the AOA to buy into this but in large I would think that the ACGME programs might have their hands tied by the current language that requires all residents to have completed 4 years of medical school.

Quite honestly, knowing what I know now, I would avoid this program and instead do the full monty until I know how it's going to play out. I would not want to be the first victim only to find out I was destined to be forced into an AOA FM program when I actually found that I loved EM/DERM/ENT etc...etc...

Is it really worth shaving off 14 months to be forced into primary care? Hec, the PA's I supervise now make more money than the vast majority of primary care docs. Just something to think about.

But I do commend Mark for pushing this through, as it is a great starting point. In the end though I would like to see it shaved to about 2 years total, with some way of entering ACGME residencies, and no restriction on type of specialty one would enter. And seriously an admission/entry exam would make incredible sense. Either this, or base it on their PANCE exam, or the graduation place in their class. You need the smartest and brightest PA's to make this program work well and help it to gain acceptance. Nothing worse than putting some dumb***** PA into the class to make the rest of us all look bad.

 

[Socrates25]

Hec, the PA's I supervise now make more money than the vast majority of primary care docs. Just something to think about.

That reminds me, after listening to emedpa and all the other EM PAs rant and rave about how they run their ERs solo with no MD oversight and how the MDs are always "consulting" the PAs because they dont know what they are doing, I say we should cut your salary in half and pay the PAs the same amount you are making.

Why should we pay you double for doing the same job as the PAs?

 

[Socrates25]

Somehow we are expected to count the 4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs medical school (regardless of whether or not it was actually 170 weeks which is NOT 4 yrs), then the minimum 3 yr residency... While we are expected to not count the pre-PA school education that most PA get when they complete pre-reqs, pre-PA bachelors and masters degrees, or become Nurses, RTs, Paramedics, etc before the 104-116 weeks spent in PA school (excluding breaks/holidays) .

The problem arises when insecure/immature students discard all rational thought for comforting, emotive, logically flawed premises... you know, the whole gotta hold someone down to feel good about my personal choices thing that high-schoolers seem to be really good at....

1. the Duke PA program that you guys are so fond of citing is only 96 weeks, not anywhere near 116. Makes me wonder how many other PA programs I could look up to show you guys are misrepresenting what the numbers are.

2. Talk about "insecure/immature" arent you the guy who claims that you graduated from "medical school" ignoring the fact that you are just a PA and not a physician? Isnt that what you tell your patients? Yes, I know its you and will provide a link to show others on this board your tomfoolery should you deny this fact.

What "medical school" did you graduate from "doc" nuisance?

 

[Dwindlin]

Lastly, I think it's really sad though that you are going to limit half of these PA's to primary care. Truth be told, most PA's that make it this far are way less than challenged by a career in primary care once they make it that far. PA's tend to congregate near the top of medical school classes from the many I have seen in my classes and in residencies in general. No reason in my opinion to force them into a profession they won't enjoy. Use these intelligent minds to make a bigger difference than primary care will allow them to make. How can you force them to do this anyway?

They should all be limited to primary care. That was the original intent of mid-levels to begin with, to bridge the gap in primary care.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Originally Posted by corpsmanUP
Lastly, I think it's really sad though that you are going to limit half of these PA's to primary care. Truth be told, most PA's that make it this far are way less than challenged by a career in primary care once they make it that far. PA's tend to congregate near the top of medical school classes from the many I have seen in my classes and in residencies in general. No reason in my opinion to force them into a profession they won't enjoy. Use these intelligent minds to make a bigger difference than primary care will allow them to make. How can you force them to do this anyway?

I agree with atkinsje--isn't the point of making this bridge to pump out more doctors for easier access to primary care?

By the way, I very much think that "PAs congregate near the top of the medical school class" is a SUPER biased statement.

Sure, a PA with 5 years experience ahead of me in actually interacting with patients, working on the floors, is going to blow me out of the water when we both set foot in 3rd year and in the beginning of residency.

However, this is not because they are "inherently" better students, its because they have more experience. Yet, I have noticed the same trend over and over (PAs and nurses in my medical school class), that they tend to struggle much more with the first two years of medical school.

So, by the time a medical student with no previous experience and a PA with 5 years experience finish the same medical school and the same residency, I doubt there would be much of difference--except, I honestly think (notice this is a belief and not a fact) the medical student with a stronger foundation (and understanding) of the basic sciences is overall going to be slightly stronger (once they catch up in experience to the student who was a previous PA).

Finally, if you are going to make this bridge and its exclusive for PAs and they can then apply for any specialty, aren't you just creating a back door for people to try and compete for more lucrative specialties? And not addressing the "healthcare" disparities this program was designed to address?

Or "gasp", is this program just a guise for people to "shortcut" their way into becoming a physician (which I hope it's not, but if its not meant to address primary care, I don't see how you can argue otherwise)

 

[primadonna22274]

Honestly--how is it a shortcut when the PA has already done a minimum of 24 mos (and most these days 27 mos) in their PA program above and beyond their undergraduate work and any prior training they came in with? It's not shorter. It's not cheaper. If anything it's LONGER and certainly more expensive if you start adding up all the hours...not to mention the opportunity costs to the practicing PA. I would have liked the program better if there were a minimum experience requirement (say 3 yr in practice, rather than the current setup where a new graduate PA could matriculate directly into the APAP pathway), but they didn't ask my opinion

FWIW I teach in one of those major PA programs. Ours is 27 months for a MPAS, continuous attendance May of year 0 to August of year 2. Let me think about time off...1 wk between summer and fall, 2 wk at Christmas, 1 wk for spring break, maybe 3 days between spring and following summer; clinical year the breaks are even shorter. So all told those PA students are attending for >25 of those 27 months. How many weeks is that...lemme see...about 100 weeks.

Or "gasp", is this program just a guise for people to "shortcut" their way into becoming a physician (which I hope it's not, but if its not meant to address primary care, I don't see how you can argue otherwise)
[/I]

 

[FutureDoc4]

Honestly--how is it a shortcut when the PA has already done a minimum of 24 mos (and most these days 27 mos) in their PA program above and beyond their undergraduate work and any prior training they came in with? It's not shorter. It's not cheaper. If anything it's LONGER and certainly more expensive if you start adding up all the hours...not to mention the opportunity costs to the practicing PA. I would have liked the program better if there were a minimum experience requirement (say 3 yr in practice, rather than the current setup where a new graduate PA could matriculate directly into the APAP pathway), but they didn't ask my opinion

FWIW I teach in one of those major PA programs. Ours is 27 months for a MPAS, continuous attendance May of year 0 to August of year 2. Let me think about time off...1 wk between summer and fall, 2 wk at Christmas, 1 wk for spring break, maybe 3 days between spring and following summer; clinical year the breaks are even shorter. So all told those PA students are attending for >25 of those 27 months. How many weeks is that...lemme see...about 100 weeks.

I am sorry I was not more clear. This was actually my fault.

By short cut, I did NOT mean time. I meant academic in nature.

E.g. Allopathic medical school matriculate has a 30 MCAT now, with about a 3.6-3.8 GPA

D.O's nationally are climbing to about an average 26-29 MCAT, with an average GPA also climbing 3.3-3.6 on average (granted this particular link program at LECOM--has actually I think one of the lowest academic entrance statistics of all the DO schools)

My understanding for the avg PA program you are looking at an avg GPA <3.3 and very average GRE scores (average compared to the national average) (obviously they do not take the MCAT so we cannot compare)

So, in terms of time you are absolutely correct that the PA to MD/DO is longer. But, it would be a "shortcut" to by pass competing with these academic allstars that make it into the avg MD/DO program

 

[primadonna22274]

You're correct on this one...but there is more to a competent clinician than academic all-star status.

It may interest you to know that PA entrance requirements are getting more stringent. I personally interviewed at least 20 of our 160 interviewees and not one of them had a cumGPA of <3.3, m/s <3.2, and GRE <1000. Many much higher, in the 1200-1300 range. I reviewed probably another 40-50 files of applicants and pretty much screened them out at <3.2 and <1000 GRE unless they had some really outstanding life experience or previous professional career. We don't look at MCAT so I can't tell you those scores. We have several folks in all 3 classes now who could have easily gone to med school--some who even were accepted and chose to go to PA school instead (which baffles me, but to each his/her own).

So, in terms of time you are absolutely correct that the PA to MD/DO is longer. But, it would be a "shortcut" to by pass competing with these academic allstars that make it into the avg MD/DO program

 

[deleted6669]

one of the worst pa students I ever had( and failed out) was a guy with a phd in a basic science field but zero common sense or clinical competence.
one of the worst fp residents I ever precepted had off the charts gpa/mcats/etc but zero bedside manner. he would insult pts to their faces(and not know it) and wonder why they complained about him. he was on probation all 3 yrs of his residency and barely graduated.
I have also had students who were just the opposite. great clinical skills and prior experience but unwilling or unable to crack a book.
an ideal clinician has to balance clinical acumen with academic achievement. too much of one and not enough of the other leads to problems down the line.

 

[FutureDoc4]

one of the worst pa students I ever had( and failed out) was a guy with a phd in a basic science field but zero common sense or clinical competence.
one of the worst fp residents I ever precepted had off the charts gpa/mcats/etc but zero bedside manner. he would insult pts to their faces(and not know it) and wonder why they complained about him. he was on probation all 3 yrs of his residency and barely graduated.
I have also had students who were just the opposite. great clinical skills and prior experience but unwilling or unable to crack a book.
an ideal clinician has to balance clinical acumen with academic achievement. too much of one and not enough of the other leads to problems down the line.

Emedpa, you seem to keep bringing up anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, in generating a class (whether PA or MD) you have to go by academic ability (and hopefully some social aptitude determined through an interview).

The bottom line is, the higher the academic prowess of an incoming class, the less likely it is they are not going to not pass Step 1-3 or their respective licensing exams (at least that's the idea--not one of the admissions criteria are perfect predictors)

For example:

I have multiple friends interested in derm; now, derm is a great field but from what I have been told (this is anecdotal-ironic, no?), the field itself in 90% of cases does not require a HUGE depth of knowledge (10% really do) . However, residency program directors take test scores (e.g. Step 1) to be a HUGE deal, because even with awesome Step 1 scores (derms AVERAGE about 1 STD above the national average of students), many residents do NOT pass and/or struggle with the derm boards (which are suppose to be RIDICULOUS).

So, agreed, you need common sense, but you need people to be strong academically and all we can go on is past performance (e.g. MCAT, GRE, GPA).

 

[deleted6669]

So, agreed, you need common sense, but you need people to be strong academically and all we can go on is past performance (e.g. MCAT, GRE, GPA).

prior health care experience(say as a pa) is also "past performance". do you really think a pa with 5+ yrs experience in a specialty and reasonable gpa/mcat is going to fail out of medschool?
there is a reason many pa's in medschool are able to work during school and still graduate near the top of their classes....I'm sure there have been mediocre pa's who became mediocre docs. I just don't know any of them. a typical pa who goes back to school is as bright as their classmates and driven enough to succeed. these are folks who for the most part could have gotten into medschool before pa school( and some did) but chose pa for lifestyle reasons then decided later to go back.

 

[FutureDoc4]

prior health care experience(say as a pa) is also "past performance". do you really think a pa with 5+ yrs experience in a specialty and reasonable gpa/mcat is going to fail out of medschool?
there is a reason many pa's in medschool are able to work during school and still graduate near the top of their classes....I'm sure there have been mediocre pa's who became mediocre docs. I just don't know any of them. a typical pa who goes back to school is as bright as their classmates and driven enough to succeed. these are folks who for the most part could have gotten into medschool before pa school( and some did) but chose pa for lifestyle reasons then decided later to go back.

No, I don't think the majority of PAs "fail out of medical school"---few selected do (whether PA or not)

The bottom line being, and this is philosophical difference I believe you and I have discussed before---

Do you believe experience that experience in the healthcare field is equivalent to book knowledge (both in prerequite classes and basic sciences of medical school).

I think--no. But, many (and I think yourself, believe so).

The parts I bolded above:

FYI there are lots of medical students able to work and graduate at the top of the class (this has nothing to do with them being a PA, it has to do with the quality of the student). I would not say I am #1 in my class, but I am near the top and have continued to work while in school.

While I am sure there are PAs that have gotten into medical school and PA school and went to PA school for lifestyle (its very understandable, especially if you have a family or want to start one); however, I believe they are the minority. The problem is the generalization you make in the above bolded statement--unfortunately, it makes you come off as "smug" (basically saying, "PAs could of easily done what your doing but decided not to"---and what I have to say is "would of/should of/could of" is much easier than actually doing).

 

[Dr Oops]

prior health care experience(say as a pa) is also "past performance". do you really think a pa with 5+ yrs experience in a specialty and reasonable gpa/mcat is going to fail out of medschool?
there is a reason many pa's in medschool are able to work during school and still graduate near the top of their classes....I'm sure there have been mediocre pa's who became mediocre docs. I just don't know any of them. a typical pa who goes back to school is as bright as their classmates and driven enough to succeed. these are folks who for the most part could have gotten into medschool before pa school( and some did) but chose pa for lifestyle reasons then decided later to go back.

Thats a horrible argument. Med schools drop out rates are very low, even when the students never went to PA schools.

 

[Dr Oops]

I am sorry I was not more clear. This was actually my fault.

By short cut, I did NOT mean time. I meant academic in nature.

E.g. Allopathic medical school matriculate has a 30 MCAT now, with about a 3.6-3.8 GPA

D.O's nationally are climbing to about an average 26-29 MCAT, with an average GPA also climbing 3.3-3.6 on average (granted this particular link program at LECOM--has actually I think one of the lowest academic entrance statistics of all the DO schools)

My understanding for the avg PA program you are looking at an avg GPA <3.3 and very average GRE scores (average compared to the national average) (obviously they do not take the MCAT so we cannot compare)

So, in terms of time you are absolutely correct that the PA to MD/DO is longer. But, it would be a "shortcut" to by pass competing with these academic allstars that make it into the avg MD/DO program

You have to take a the MCAT for the program, but you only need to get a 22. Def seems like a shortcut now.

 

[bradt9881]

You have to take a the MCAT for the program, but you only need to get a 22. Def seems like a shortcut now.

http://www.lecom.edu/pros_degrees.p...-program-entrance-requirements/76/0/1957/7504

They aren't doing anything different that they don't do for any other health professions grad, so PAs are not getting anything special.

And just because the minimum is 22, do you really think that with the handful of slots out there and thousands of possible PA applicants, that someone is going to make it with only a 22?

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Starpower]

Honestly, does everyone not have anything better to do than puff out their chests? Yes, the MD GPA is higher, there are also some with low scores that make it in. Just as there are some DO and PA students with higher GPAs then some of the MD students. Blah blah blah. Choose your school, get in, and get to work.

Now, as for the current battle over length of education, hours, yada yada, let's stop quibbling about 100 vs 116 and get something constructive done. Can anyone here handle that?

I'll post this from another thread here, I think it tells the tale nicely. After reading, if someone from the med student side would care to expand on how the instruction differs, I for one would appreciate it. I know from sitting in on lunch conference and grand rounds, that the education is deeper. That being said, there was a lot of familiar territory. I also came across the 'critmeter' concept in Guyton while doing my own research, something that is taught in medical school but that there is simply no time for in PA school (incidentally, Guyton states that it's unknown where erythropoietin is produced, this is incorrect, it's the juxtamedullary region). We are taught how to recognize, and how to kill it (treat). Like Vasquez said in Aliens, "I only need to know one thing man, where ... they ... are."

Most PA programs require both Physiology and Anatomy before application, and a majority also require Biochemistry. Most also require Microbiology (with lab). Pathology is more part of the didactic year, since the student has already taken Physiology. Likewise, at least in my program, we took Advanced Anatomy during our didactic year.

In addition to the brutal didactic year, we take exams after every rotation. Every rotation is also supervised by a preceptor, often an MD or DO (at my school I've learned under MDs and DOs except for only one rotation, where I was precepted primarily by PAs).

I'm currently on my Adult Med rotation, here are the learning objectives which I have to be prepared for before the exam:

.Cardiovascular.

.Category I:.. Coronary artery disease; AMI, angina, hyperlipidemia, valvular heart disease, dysrhythmias, congestive heart failure; hypertension (essential, secondary, malignant), orthostatic/postural hypotension, arterial/venous insufficiency, deep vein thrombosis, thrombophlebitis, peripheral vascular disease (venous and arterial).

.Category II:.. Pericardial diseases / cardiomyopathies (dilated, hypertrophic, restrictive) rheumatic heart disease, infectious endocarditis, mesenteric ischemia

.​

.Pulmonary.

.Category I:.. Acute bronchitis, pneumonias (community & nosocomial, bacterial, viral, fungal, .
.HIV-related), pleural effusion, pulmonary edema, asthma, chronic bronchitis/ emphysema, pulmonary embolus, tuberculosis, influenza..

.Category II:.. Abscesses, empyema, restrictive lung diseases related to environmental/occupational and connective tissue etiologies, carcinomas, sarcoidosis, pulmonary hypertension, cystic fibrosis, primary pulmonary hypertension, pulmonary fibrosis

.​

.Gastrointestinal.

.Category I:.. Peptic ulcer disease: H. pylori, gastric, duodenal; gastroesophageal reflux, esophageal spasm, esophagitis, gastritis/gastreoenteritis; hepatitis, pancreatitis, inflammatory bowel disease, irritable bowel syndrome, diarrhea (infectious, parasitic), constipation, diverticular disease, pseudomembranous colitis, cholelithiasis, cholecystitis, lactose intolerance, constipation, Nutritional Deficiencies ( Niacin, Thiamine, Riboflavin, Vitamins A, C, D, K)., Metabolic Disorders (Lactose intolerance)

.​

.Category II:.. Esophageal/gastric/colorectal carcinoma; achalasia, esophageal varices, malabsorption syndromes, biliary obstruction, cirrhosis, parasitic diseases, large or small bowel obstruction.​

.Musculoskeletal.

.Category I:.. Rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, low back pain, gout, pseudogout, septic arthritis, osteoporosis, carpal tunnel syndrome

.​

.Category II:.. Systemic lupus erythematosus, progressive systemic sclerosis, psoriasis, vasculitis, Reiter's syndrome, aseptic necrosis, polymyositis, polymyalgia rheumatica, fibromyalgia, osteomyelitis

.​

.EENT.

.Category I:.. Glaucoma, otitis media/externa, labyrinthitis, Meniere's disease, acute/chronic sinusitis, allergic rhinitis, pharyngitis, conjunctivitis

.​

.Category II:.. Oral leukoplakia, orbital/periorbital cellulitis, retinal detachment, ocular herpes, oral carcinoma, cataracts, diabetic/hypertensive retinopathy

.​

.Endocrine

.​

.Category I:.. Diabetes Mellitus (types I and II), hypo/hyperthyroidism, Graves' disease, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, thyroid storm, Cushing's syndrome, hypercholesterolemia, hypertriglyceridemia.

.​

.Category II:.. Hyper/hypoparathyroidism, acromegaly/gigantism, corticoadrenal insufficiency, pituitary adenoma, thyroid cancer, diabetes insipidus, SIADH.​

.Neurologic.

.Category I:.. Alzheimer's disease, CVA / TIA, tension/cluster/migraine headache, trigeminal neuralgia, giant cell arteritis, meningitis, diabetic peripheral and autonomic neuropathies

.​

.Category II:.. Multiple sclerosis, cerebral aneurysm, seizure disorders, encephalitis, Bell's palsy, subarachnoid hemorrhage, epidural bleed, Parkinson's disease, dementia, Guillian Barre, myasthenia gravis, SAH

.​

.Genitourinary

.​

.Category I:.. Acute and chronic renal failure, nephrotic syndrome, renal calculi, pyelonephritis, benign prostatic hyperplasia, acute and chronic prostatitis, cystitis, urethritis, incontinence, epididymitis, cystitis

.​

.Category II:.. Glomerulonephritis, Goodpasture's syndrome, polycystic kidney disease, renovascular hypertension, tubulointerstitial disease, bladder/prostate carcinoma, renal cell carcinoma, testicular carcinoma

.​

.Dermatologic

.​

.Category I:.. Stasis dermatitis, venous stasis ulcers, tinea corporis/pedis/cruris, rosacea, onycomycosis, herpes simplex, cellulitis, decubitus ulcers, urticaria, herpes zoster, psoriasis, seborrheic/actinic keratoses, contact dermatitis, viral exanthum, gram positive and gram negative skin infections

.​

.Category II:.. Basal cell carcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma.

.Hematologic.

.Category I:.. Anemias: iron deficiency, vitamin B12, folate, anemia of chronic disease, sickle cell anemia, anticoagulant use (warfarin, heparin, Lovonox, aspirin, clopidogrel)

.​

.Category II:.. Coagulation disorders, thrombocytopenia, VonWillebrand's disease, acute and chronic lymphocytic leukemia, acute and chronic myelogenous leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma, ITP, aplastic anemia, myeloproliferative disease, G6PD-deficiency.​

.Infectious Disease.

.Category I:.. Candidiasis, gonococcal infections, salmonellosis, shigellosis, Lyme disease, HIV, streptococcal infections, staph infections, sepsis, Epstein Barr, cytomegalovirus.

.Category II:.. Pneumocystis, atypical mycobacterial disease, syphilis, histoplasmosis, cryptococcus, malaria.​

.Miscellaneous.

. Dehydration, edema.

.Procedures

.​

.Given an adult patient, the PA student will observe and perform, where permitted, the following procedures: using proper technique and precautions; will identify the indications, contraindications and hazards for such procedures, and will appropriately educate the patient or legal guardian about such procedures and the meaning of the results. Including, obtaining the appropriate releases. The student will identify the age/gender appropriate "normal" values.

.​

.As indicated, with preceptor permission..: .

.arterial blood gases urinalysis.
.electrocardiogram
urine pregnancy tests.
.foley catheterization
venipuncture / fingerstick.
.gram stain wet mounts .
.IV catheter placement .
.nasogastric tube placement .
.occult blood in stool .
.rapid strep tests .
.injections:.. intradermal, intravenous, subcutaneous.
.specimen collection..: .
. culture/sensitivity of blood, .
. cervical, nasopharyngeal, .
. sputum, stool, urethral, .
. urine, wound .

.As indicated, under direct supervision and with assistance as needed..: .

.thoracentesis .
.paracentesis .
.joint aspiration .
.proctoscopy .
.arterial puncture, other than radial artery .
.Removal of non-penetrating ocular foreign bodies .

.Principles of Monitoring/Therapeutics .

.The student will identify the indications, contraindications, hazards and management of the following:.

.intravenous fluid therapy .
.total parenteral nutrition .
.blood transfusions .
.arterial cannulation and catheterization .
.central pressure monitoring .
.pulmonary artery pressure monitoring .

.Diagnostic Studies .

.The student will demonstrate knowledge of normal values, and list common diseases, which may account for abnormal values, for the following laboratory tests:.​

.complete blood count with white cell differential / anemia profiles .
.urinalysis .
.blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, electrolytes &#8211; Na+, K+, CL -, CO2 .
.biochemical profiles: liver function, renal function, cardiac function, .
.calcium metabolism tests, glucose, lipid levels .
.hepatitis profiles .
.arterial blood gases .
.thyroid profiles .
.lipid profiles.
.rheumatologic disease profiles.
.pulmonary function testing .
.HIV/AIDS profiles .
.cardiovascular testing (cardiac enzyme profiles, echocardiography,.
.stress testing, cardiac catheterization, BNP, C-reactive protein).
.spinal fluid analysis .
.microbiology: tests for infectious diseases .

.Radiographic Studies

.​

.The student will describe the indications for ordering radiologic studies such as radiographs; CT scans, MRI, nuclear medicine studies and ultrasound techniques, as diagnostic procedures, and will describe the health risks associated with radiologic procedures. .​

.The student will: .​

.Interpret PA and lateral chest x-rays for pneumonia, pneumothorax, pleural.​

.effusion, CHF, cardiomegaly, solid tumors, fractures, hyperinflation..​

.Interpret x-rays of the extremities for fractures, dislocations and degenerative.​

. joint/disc disease..​

.Interpret x-rays of the spine for scoliosis, kyphosis, and DJD. .​

.Interpret the descriptive reports of radiologists concerning flat plates of the .​

.abdomen, upper GI series, barium enema, IVP's, skull and sinus films..​

That all being said, med school does teach more extensive physiology and pathophysiology but PAs are nonetheless taught a great deal. PA program accreditation involves representatives from quite a few Physician organizations, including the AMA, American Academy of Family Physicians, and the American College of Surgeons.

 

[FutureDoc4]

I fail to see how I stretched numbers. If anything, you definitely took liberty with the data (only looking from 2007-2009).

Let's go with a quick 5 year span

From the AAMC data you posted you went from an average of 29.9 to 30.9 MCAT (between 2004-2009)--anyone who knows the MCAT realizes that is significant

From the GPA trend during the same time 2004-2009 (3.62 to 3.66), not as 'wowing' but definitely an improvement.

By the way these were both in the "range" I gave you for allopathic medical schools. But, the "average" per a school can vary so significantly (hence, I gave you a range). But the average at "bigger" schools (Columbia, Cornell, UCSF) your looking at a 35-36 MCAT and a 3.7-9 GPA. Remember, these are not going to be normally distributed either, they are going to be negatively skewed (which means, that there are not as many people "below" the numbers I just gave you as above).


I can tell you that the average is getting better simply by the rate of change from 1998 till 2003 the average MCAT went from 29.6 to 29.6 (0 change in 5 years) versus the 1.0 change in 5 years

This is why you have to be careful analyzing data



If I went and found the osteopathic data, I would guess I would also see significant gains in the average of GPA and MCAT

I found your post extremely disingenuous.

Let's look at the evidence and be objective. (Not hating on MD's or DO's, I just hate it when people stretch numbers) It seems that the MD MCAT and GPA are holding steady whereas the DO MCAT is rising appreciably, though still significantly below the allopathic averages. The DO GPA appears to be rather steady.

One also has to note that the DO GPA is probably boosted by the fact that retaken classes usually boost the GPA. Not hating, just saying the truth/facts.

The average MD matriculant has a 30.8 MCAT and 3.66 GPA. (As of 2009. The average MCAT has not increased and the average GPA has increased .01 since 2007)

The average DO matriculant has a 26.19 MCAT and 3.48 GPA. (As of 2009. The average MCAT has increased 0.67 since 2007 and the GPA .03)

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2011cib/2011cib-whole.pdf

(page 16 of above document)

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table17-fact2009mcatgpa98-09-web.pdf

 

[FutureDoc4]

Honestly, does everyone not have anything better to do than puff out their chests? Yes, the MD GPA is higher, there are also some with low scores that make it in. Just as there are some DO and PA students with higher GPAs then some of the MD students. Blah blah blah. Choose your school, get in, and get to work.

Now, as for the current battle over length of education, hours, yada yada, let's stop quibbling about 100 vs 116 and get something constructive done. Can anyone here handle that?

I'll post this from another thread here, I think it tells the tale nicely. After reading, if someone from the med student side would care to expand on how the instruction differs, I for one would appreciate it. I know from sitting in on lunch conference and grand rounds, that the education is deeper. That being said, there was a lot of familiar territory. I also came across the 'critmeter' concept in Guyton while doing my own research, something that is taught in medical school but that there is simply no time for in PA school (incidentally, Guyton states that it's unknown where erythropoietin is produced, this is incorrect, it's the juxtamedullary region). We are taught how to recognize, and how to kill it (treat). Like Vasquez said in Aliens, "I only need to know one thing man, where ... they ... are."

I can't respond to your entire post, because I am not qualified to honestly. I cannot compare the curriculum in depth. All I can go on is what I have read online and my interaction with PAs at my school.

And I am going to be an ass for one second. EPO is produced in the peritubular capillary interstitial cells in the renal cortex.

 

[Starpower]

I can't respond to your entire post, because I am not qualified to honestly. I cannot compare the curriculum in depth. All I can go on is what I have read online and my interaction with PAs are my school.

And I am going to be an ass for one second. EPO is produced in the peritubular capillary interstitial cells in the renal cortex.

I think you mean, 'PAs at your school'. Anyhow, I don't know what your interaction is with actual PAs there, do you mean the ones who work in an adjoining hospital? Are you referring to PA students? Clarify if you want to.

I don't understand, you can see the learning objectives I posted ... you're not able to state what more you learn in adult med? It wasn't a challenge, just an attempt at discussion.

As for you being "an ass", please, be an ass more often if it means sharing information! As to the renal topic at hand, I would appreciate a reference. Here is one of mine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14713115

The critmeter is proposed to be a functional unit located at the tip of the cortical labyrinth at the juxta-medullary region of the kidney where erythropoietin is made physiologically.

Tho we said the same general thing, I would appreciate the source of your information? It would make sense, since ATII affects erythropoietin production (capillary interstitium). I don't use the term 'EPO', since that generally refers to Procrit. Anyhow, we're one up on Guyton!

 

[FutureDoc4]

I think you mean, 'PAs at your school'. Anyhow, I don't know what your interaction is with actual PAs there, do you mean the ones who work in an adjoining hospital? Are you referring to PA students? Clarify if you want to.

I don't understand, you can see the learning objectives I posted ... you're not able to state what more you learn in adult med? It wasn't a challenge, just an attempt at discussion.

As for you being "an ass", please, be an ass more often if it means sharing information! As to the renal topic at hand, I would appreciate a reference. Here is one of mine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14713115

Tho we said the same general thing, I would appreciate the source of your information? It would make sense, since ATII affects erythropoietin production (capillary interstitium). I don't use the term 'EPO', since that generally refers to Procrit. Anyhow, we're one up on Guyton!

Yeah sorry, I meant PAs at my school (there is an adjoining PA school to my medical school).

The reference for EPO is Rapid Review Pathology by Dr. Goljan, Chapter 19 pg. 390 Section 1-F (3rd Edition) "Renal Function Overview"

 

[Starpower]

Yeah sorry, I meant PAs at my school (there is an adjoining PA school to my medical school).

The reference for EPO is Rapid Review Pathology by Dr. Goljan, Chapter 19 pg. 390 Section 1-F (3rd Edition) "Renal Function Overview"

lol We both did it; PA students, right. Great thanks, will look it up right away.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[FutureDoc4]

Dude, I just picked 2007-2009 because that was the only time period available from the Osteopathic information booklet. That way one could compare apples to apples.

The current MCAT difference is still 4.6, which is what, a whole standard deviation. It is very significant and large.

You said that the DO average was 26-29 when it is 26.19. That is a pretty big embellishment. I've heard of very ardent DO defenders saying things like, "Oh, you have to take out certain DO schools that have low MCAT averages"

Well, why wouldn't you do that with the MD schools to have an equal comparison? Its cherry picking. Once again, not hating.

I am not advocating that you not choose to include certain schools, but than the range becomes very large for DO schools--so if you really want me to give you a more accurate range for DO schools its 24-29 (a HUGE! range)...this range also invalidates the notion of your "average" from the data (please, don't make me explain why)

For example, PCOM and UMDNJ-SOM are close to 27-29 range while LECOM is closer to 22-25. So overall, the range of scores for Osteopathic schools are wide (hence, making an average sort of meaningless--again a RANGE)

But, the number of DO schools in that lower range is far less (hence, many advocating for not including them in the average---you know what a few outliers do to a data set right?)

And you don't have that issue with MD schools because that range is no where near as big. I have not heard of an MD school with an average MCAT less than 28-29 (so that range is >29 and higher and again, are not normally distributed--would be a negative skew)

And those dates you picked, like I clearly showed you above how very little change that shows compared to when you in fact look at the past five years versus the 5 years before--its pretty significant. It comes across as misleading.

So:

A) You really don't understand how to anaylze rate of change of data and how MCAT scores are distributed

B) You are just trying to "call me out" when you seem to really to lack an understanding of medical school admissions data

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Starpower]

And you don't have that issue with MD schools because that range is no where near as big. I have not heard of an MD school with an average MCAT less than 28-29 (so that range is >29 and higher and again, are not normally distributed--would be a negative skew)

So, "I have not heard" is a reference nowadays?

 

[Starpower]

I think there are some pros and cons to a system like this and have some reservations which I wonder if anyone could answer:

1) Are these spots being held solely for PA's or are they general spots where PA's will be looked at. If PA's, simply for being PA's, are being picked over traditional applicants with higher MCAT's/GPA/ etc. then something seems remiss. While I understand that being a PA provides clinical experience it shouldn't trump excelling in the mandated requirements that pre-meds elswhere have had to do.

2) How are the pre-reqs that PA's have being considered. No offense but I find it troubling to count a PA basic sciences in the same league as the upper level science courses full of pre-meds at a major state university. It's just not apples to apples.

3) Why the shortened education? PA's need the basic science depth and when it comes to clincals they may have experience as a PA but I would argue that the experience as a physician requires more and they would be better served by the traditional 2 years of clinicals.

I don't think we should be rewarding PA's who either couldn't get into medical school to start with or decided against medical school and changed their minds later in their careers. Shouldn't they be held to the same standards as the students who went the traditional route rather than handed a shortcut through med school

They still have to take the MCAT. Only a year is shaved off, and considering, that's actually the most unreasonable part, but not for the reason you're stating. In fact, the opposite. But the reason for that is medical school minimum is a federal mandate of 3 years.

Most PA programs require prior coursework in the sciences which are equal in many respects to pre-med students, more or less. For example, PA students for most programs must have already completed a Biology series with labs, Chemistry series with labs, Organic Chemistry with Labs, Biochemistry, Microbiology with Lab, Anatomy with Lab, and Physiology. Pre-meds are not required to take Anatomy or Microbiology in undergrad, but PA students are. This is so they can jump you straight into deeper study of medicine from day one. The other main difference with undergrad requirements is that pre-meds are required to take Physics in preparation for the MCAT, but most PA schools don't require Physics. Of course if you're going for a Bio degree in undergrad then you'll probably have taken Physics regardless.

Medical school does still go deeper into physiology and pathophysiology, but PA students are nonetheless expected to handle a great deal of material. A great deal. Most make it through the first year, but alas some do not. We had an attrition of about 5 or 6 students this year. Some are trying a second time, some have moved on towards other careers. I think no less of any of them, the first year is a hard kick in the face and there is unfortunately little to no forgiveness offered for failure.

PA program accreditation involves representatives from quite a few Physician organizations, including the AMA, American Academy of Family Physicians, and the American College of Surgeons.

In addition to the brutal first year of didactic coursework, the second year consists of training rotations in Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Psychiatry, Pediatrics, Obstetrics/Gynecology, and Adult Medicine. The student is taught and graded by a preceptor during each rotation, usually a MD or DO. I have had one rotation (Emed) where I was primarily taught by PAs. In addition to the preceptor's grade, each rotation ends with an exam (roughly half of the final rotation grade).


I'm currently finishing up my Adult Medicine rotation in hospital Nephrology, here is the list of learning objectives that I'm expected to know for the exam. Remember, this is for only one rotation:


Cardiovascular

Category I: Coronary artery disease; AMI, angina, hyperlipidemia, valvular heart disease, dysrhythmias, congestive heart failure; hypertension (essential, secondary, malignant), orthostatic/postural hypotension, arterial/venous insufficiency, deep vein thrombosis, thrombophlebitis, peripheral vascular disease (venous and arterial)

Category II: Pericardial diseases / cardiomyopathies (dilated, hypertrophic, restrictive) rheumatic heart disease, infectious endocarditis, mesenteric ischemia

Pulmonary

Category I: Acute bronchitis, pneumonias (community & nosocomial, bacterial, viral, fungal,
HIV-related), pleural effusion, pulmonary edema, asthma, chronic bronchitis/ emphysema, pulmonary embolus, tuberculosis, influenza.

Category II: Abscesses, empyema, restrictive lung diseases related to environmental/occupational and connective tissue etiologies, carcinomas, sarcoidosis, pulmonary hypertension, cystic fibrosis, primary pulmonary hypertension, pulmonary fibrosis

Gastrointestinal

Category I: Peptic ulcer disease: H. pylori, gastric, duodenal; gastroesophageal reflux, esophageal spasm, esophagitis, gastritis/gastreoenteritis; hepatitis, pancreatitis, inflammatory bowel disease, irritable bowel syndrome, diarrhea (infectious, parasitic), constipation, diverticular disease, pseudomembranous colitis, cholelithiasis, cholecystitis, lactose intolerance, constipation, Nutritional Deficiencies ( Niacin, Thiamine, Riboflavin, Vitamins A, C, D, K)., Metabolic Disorders (Lactose intolerance)

Category II: Esophageal/gastric/colorectal carcinoma; achalasia, esophageal varices, malabsorption syndromes, biliary obstruction, cirrhosis, parasitic diseases, large or small bowel obstruction

Musculoskeletal

Category I: Rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, low back pain, gout, pseudogout, septic arthritis, osteoporosis, carpal tunnel syndrome

Category II: Systemic lupus erythematosus, progressive systemic sclerosis, psoriasis, vasculitis, Reiter's syndrome, aseptic necrosis, polymyositis, polymyalgia rheumatica, fibromyalgia, osteomyelitis

EENT

Category I: Glaucoma, otitis media/externa, labyrinthitis, Meniere's disease, acute/chronic sinusitis, allergic rhinitis, pharyngitis, conjunctivitis

Category II: Oral leukoplakia, orbital/periorbital cellulitis, retinal detachment, ocular herpes, oral carcinoma, cataracts, diabetic/hypertensive retinopathy

Endocrine

Category I: Diabetes Mellitus (types I and II), hypo/hyperthyroidism, Graves' disease, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, thyroid storm, Cushing's syndrome, hypercholesterolemia, hypertriglyceridemia.

Category II: Hyper/hypoparathyroidism, acromegaly/gigantism, corticoadrenal insufficiency, pituitary adenoma, thyroid cancer, diabetes insipidus, SIADH

Neurologic

Category I: Alzheimer's disease, CVA / TIA, tension/cluster/migraine headache, trigeminal neuralgia, giant cell arteritis, meningitis, diabetic peripheral and autonomic neuropathies

Category II: Multiple sclerosis, cerebral aneurysm, seizure disorders, encephalitis, Bell's palsy, subarachnoid hemorrhage, epidural bleed, Parkinson's disease, dementia, Guillian Barre, myasthenia gravis, SAH

Genitourinary

Category I: Acute and chronic renal failure, nephrotic syndrome, renal calculi, pyelonephritis, benign prostatic hyperplasia, acute and chronic prostatitis, cystitis, urethritis, incontinence, epididymitis, cystitis

Category II: Glomerulonephritis, Goodpasture's syndrome, polycystic kidney disease, renovascular hypertension, tubulointerstitial disease, bladder/prostate carcinoma, renal cell carcinoma, testicular carcinoma

Dermatologic

Category I: Stasis dermatitis, venous stasis ulcers, tinea corporis/pedis/cruris, rosacea, onycomycosis, herpes simplex, cellulitis, decubitus ulcers, urticaria, herpes zoster, psoriasis, seborrheic/actinic keratoses, contact dermatitis, viral exanthum, gram positive and gram negative skin infections

Category II: Basal cell carcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma

Hematologic

Category I: Anemias: iron deficiency, vitamin B12, folate, anemia of chronic disease, sickle cell anemia, anticoagulant use (warfarin, heparin, Lovonox, aspirin, clopidogrel)

Category II: Coagulation disorders, thrombocytopenia, VonWillebrand's disease, acute and chronic lymphocytic leukemia, acute and chronic myelogenous leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma, ITP, aplastic anemia, myeloproliferative disease, G6PD-deficiency

Infectious Disease

Category I: Candidiasis, gonococcal infections, salmonellosis, shigellosis, Lyme disease, HIV, streptococcal infections, staph infections, sepsis, Epstein Barr, cytomegalovirus

Category II: Pneumocystis, atypical mycobacterial disease, syphilis, histoplasmosis, cryptococcus, malaria

Miscellaneous

Dehydration, edema


Procedures
Given an adult patient, the PA student will observe and perform, where permitted, the following procedures: using proper technique and precautions; will identify the indications, contraindications and hazards for such procedures, and will appropriately educate the patient or legal guardian about such procedures and the meaning of the results. Including, obtaining the appropriate releases. The student will identify the age/gender appropriate "normal" values.
As indicated, with preceptor permission :

arterial blood gases urinalysis
electrocardiogram
urine pregnancy tests
foley catheterization
venipuncture / fingerstick
gram stain wet mounts
IV catheter placement
nasogastric tube placement
occult blood in stool
rapid strep tests
injections: intradermal, intravenous, subcutaneous
specimen collection:
culture/sensitivity of blood,
cervical, nasopharyngeal,
sputum, stool, urethral,
urine, wound

As indicated, under direct supervision and with assistance as needed:

thoracentesis
paracentesis
joint aspiration
proctoscopy
arterial puncture, other than radial artery
Removal of non-penetrating ocular foreign bodies

Principles of Monitoring/Therapeutics

The student will identify the indications, contraindications, hazards and management of the following:

intravenous fluid therapy
total parenteral nutrition
blood transfusions
arterial cannulation and catheterization
central pressure monitoring
pulmonary artery pressure monitoring

Diagnostic Studies
The student will demonstrate knowledge of normal values, and list common diseases, which may account for abnormal values, for the following laboratory tests:

complete blood count with white cell differential / anemia profiles
urinalysis
blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, electrolytes &#8211; Na+, K+, CL -, CO2
biochemical profiles: liver function, renal function, cardiac function,
calcium metabolism tests, glucose, lipid levels
hepatitis profiles
arterial blood gases
thyroid profiles
lipid profiles
rheumatologic disease profiles
pulmonary function testing
HIV/AIDS profiles
cardiovascular testing (cardiac enzyme profiles, echocardiography,
stress testing, cardiac catheterization, BNP, C-reactive protein)
spinal fluid analysis
microbiology: tests for infectious diseases

Radiographic Studies
The student will describe the indications for ordering radiologic studies such as radiographs; CT scans, MRI, nuclear medicine studies and ultrasound techniques, as diagnostic procedures, and will describe the health risks associated with radiologic procedures.
The student will:
Interpret PA and lateral chest x-rays for pneumonia, pneumothorax, pleural
effusion, CHF, cardiomegaly, solid tumors, fractures, hyperinflation.
Interpret x-rays of the extremities for fractures, dislocations and degenerative
joint/disc disease.
Interpret x-rays of the spine for scoliosis, kyphosis, and DJD.
Interpret the descriptive reports of radiologists concerning flat plates of the
abdomen, upper GI series, barium enema, IVP's, skull and sinus films.

 

[lapelirroja]

It is apples to apples. What are the "PA basic sciences"? There are no survey courses accepted for matriculation, so what are you saying? That pre-PAs take different bio, chem, stats, calc, phys, micro, A&P than pre-meds?

Since there's technically no such thing as a "pre-PA" major, the courses potential PA students take to get into school are the same exact ones required for pre-med majors/concentrations. Bio for Bio Majors, Chem for Chem Majors, Biochem, Organic Chem, etc. No "bio for health professions" or "chemistry for nursing" or any of that crap.

Unless you're speaking about the sciences that PA students take within the PA program then yes, medical school basic sciences are more in depth. But the pre-PA coursework has the same rigor, minus the calculus and sometimes physics (ie, the more applicable sciences).

 

[FutureDoc4]

So, "I have not heard" is a reference nowadays?

And by "hear", I meant when I applied to medical school and looked through the MSAR at average statistics per school... granted, I haven't gone through it in years.... but, if you want to buy a copy or go to each individual medical schools website to verify this be my guest.

http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/msar.htm

You check out that pathology reference?

P.S. I never considered EVERY medical school in the country, so yes, there may be 1-3 schools with lower MCATS than 28-29... however, as we said (and seems to be a theme on this forum--the outliers are not the most representative of the population)

For example, EMPA might actually run the ER in his area, but we all realize that this is unusual and is not the norm in most of the rest of the country (hence, you cannot extrapolate his/her experience to other ERs)

Finally, in regards to prereqs someone mentioned PAs schools require anatomy and physiology and what not...this is certainly not true... many schools do not for example:

http://shrp.umdnj.edu/programs/paweb/admissions/prereqs.html


Although these are "recommended" few are required and I am sure this is true of most other schools (though if someone can provide a reference to indicate otherwise, I would gladly recant)

The fact about JC courses for prereqs is understated here. A quick look through the Pre-allo forum would inform you how much of a "no-no" it is to take a prereq at a community college (regardless of the reality versus the perception of the difficulty of these courses).

There are many schools that won't take a prereq for a community college (heck, there are many medical schools that won't take a AP Grade of 5 instead of a prereq--e.g. Harvard)

Finally, this is gotten very off topic.... the point being:
In this pathway are people with less stellar academic credentials going to "bypass" competing with other pre-allo students with a better academic record because they are a PA?

If I can get a definite "no" to this, I would be fine with the program. But, someone will have to prove it to me.

 

[Starpower]

You didn't answer the first question I asked, namely are the PA's getting into the school of the same caliber with respect to GPA/MCAT scores compared to the applicants applying the traditional route. It would seem short sighted by the med school in my opinion to simply take PA's when more qualified (by the numbers) applicants are available from the traditional pool.

When I said the length is an issue, what i mean is clinical experience as a PA is not the same as clinical experience as a med student. If they were why not let PA's just do 2 years of basic science and count their clinical experience towards residency as well? the reason is because the experience and training as a PA is different than that of a medical student. So cutting off a year of clinicals because of previous PA experience seems to be cutting a corner.

You keep posting your "brutal" schedule. While I have no doubt it's challenging, when posting in a discussion with residents and med students understand we've all been through the "brutal" schedule of medical school which I assure you covers the same material in significantly more depth.

First off, the first class hasn't even started yet (to my knowledge), so we have no way of knowing what the GPAs and MCAT scores are. Second, there are only about 12 seats for the PA-DO bridge. I'm sure those can be spared.

The difference between clinical experience of a PA and med students is primarily the residency. I rotate with med students, and I'm trained exactly as they are by our preceptors. There is no 'falling short' there. I won't, however, most likely be doing a residency, and that's where I fall short. Residencies are tremendous. Med student education is a lot, but it's not nearly as huge a difference. Med students are the grunts in the back, just like me. No one calls on them to answer, because they lack the training to do so yet (mostly). And truthfully, I generally do much better with patients because I've been working with them for almost 20 years already.

You "assure" me that you've covered the same amount of material in significantly more depth, yet you're unable to give some details? The thing is, I've seen the training you receive, but you haven't seen what I receive. My lectures come from MDs and DOs, for the most part. Do you think they somehow change the lectures for us, because we're PA students? Guess again. And the information I posted applies to only the Adult Med rotation, you have no idea about our didactic year. I wish I could convey the barrage to you. In fact, you get a summer off in your first year. We most definitely do not. And I'm not trying to 'outdo' your education by posting the rotation curriculum, I'm trying to educate you on our training. We use Cecil and Harrison's (and every other text under the sun), same as you.

All that being said, I've already stated that you delve deeper into pathophys. Your Step 1 is more in-depth. For instance, we don't learn about the critmeter (at least in my program), and you probably do. We are trained to get out there as soon as possible, that is the mission. And trust me that the AMA and other Physician organizations which oversee our education are more than capable of insuring that we receive proper training ... if you disagree, why don't you write them and let them know how you feel.

And by "hear", I meant when I applied to medical school and looked through the MSAR at average statistics per school... granted, I haven't gone through it in years.... but, if you want to buy a copy or go to each individual medical schools website to verify this be my guest.

http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/msar.htm

You check out that pathology reference?

P.S. I never considered EVERY medical school in the country, so yes, there may be 1-3 schools with lower MCATS than 28-29... however, as we said (and seems to be a theme on this forum--the outliers are not the most representative of the population)

For example, EMPA might actually run the ER in his area, but we all realize that this is unusual and is not the norm in most of the rest of the country (hence, you cannot extrapolate his/her experience to other ERs)

Finally, in regards to prereqs someone mentioned PAs schools require anatomy and physiology and what not...this is certainly not true... many schools do not for example:

http://shrp.umdnj.edu/programs/paweb/admissions/prereqs.html


Although these are "recommended" few are required and I am sure this is true of most other schools (though if someone can provide a reference to indicate otherwise, I would gladly recant)

The fact about JC courses for prereqs is understated here. A quick look through the Pre-allo forum would inform you how much of a "no-no" it is to take a prereq at a community college (regardless of the reality versus the perception of the difficulty of these courses).

There are many schools that won't take a prereq for a community college (heck, there are many medical schools that won't take a AP Grade of 5 instead of a prereq--e.g. Harvard)

Finally, this is gotten very off topic.... the point being:
In this pathway are people with less stellar academic credentials going to "bypass" competing with other pre-allo students with a better academic record because they are a PA?

If I can get a definite "no" to this, I would be fine with the program. But, someone will have to prove it to me.

My Bachelor's is from the University of California. I have taken Bio 1 2 and 3 with labs, Bio 3 used Lehninger as it's text. I've taken Chem 1 and 2, with labs. I've taken O Chem 1 with lab, and Biochem. I've taken Upper Div Cell, Neuroscience, and Micro with Lab. I've also taken Physiology with lab, where half the class is failed (the ultimate weeder course, trust me). Calculus, Statistics, etc. What I didn't take was Physics, which you had to (I wanted to, but there just wasn't time as I was Biopsych and I had to take a full Psych load on top of everything ... I still want to take Physics one day). Finally, there may be a few PA programs which don't require Anatomy and Physiology, but rest assured that they are not the norm. Do some more searching, and you'll see what I mean. I took Anatomy with labs in undergrad, and did so well that I was offered a paid position in the lab.

"Certainly not true" and you "are sure"? How you have the audacity to be so pompous is beyond me. Just how wagy thinks all PAs took their pre-reqs at community colleges LMAO

http://www.arcadia.edu/academic/default.aspx?id=8666

http://www.atsu.edu/ashs/programs/physician_assistant/admission_requirements.htm

http://medicine.utah.edu/upap/Admissions/admissions.htm

http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sc...n-assistant/applicants/admissions/prereqs.cfm

There are plenty more, trust me, I learned about it all when I reviewed every single program before I applied.

And as people keep stating, just because a website says '2.75 minimum', that is rarely the case. I received denials from 3 or 4 schools stating that my 3.5 was too far below the rest of the applicants.

And yup, found the book in the library. Good book.

 

[bradt9881]

Finally, this is gotten very off topic.... the point being:
In this pathway are people with less stellar academic credentials going to "bypass" competing with other pre-allo students with a better academic record because they are a PA?

If I can get a definite "no" to this, I would be fine with the program. But, someone will have to prove it to me.

Considering its a DO program, not allopathic, I htink you can count it as a definite "no".

Prereqs vary from PA program to PA program, but most require anatomy, physiology, statistics, general chemistry, and a semester of organic chemistry. The biggest difference is physics, which most programs do not require. And if you want a good solid physical sciences MCAT score, you need physics.

 

[FutureDoc4]

First off, the first class hasn't even started yet (to my knowledge), so we have no way of knowing what the GPAs ad MCAT scores are. Second, there are only about 12 seats for the PA-DO bridge. I'm sure those can be spared.

The difference between clinical experience of a PA and med students is primarily the residency. I rotate with med students, and I'm trained exactly as they are by our preceptors. There is no 'falling short' there. I won't, however, most likely be doing a residency, and that's where I fall short. Residencies are tremendous. Med student education is a lot, but it's not nearly as huge a difference. Med students are the grunts in the back, just like me. No one calls on them to answer, because they lack the training to do so yet (mostly). And truthfully, I generally do much better with patients because I've been working with them for almost 20 years already.

You "assure" me that you've covered the same amount of material in significantly more depth, yet you're unable to give some details? The thing is, I've seen the training you receive, but you haven't seen what I receive. My lectures come from MDs and DOs, for the most part. Do you think they somehow change the lectures for us, because we're PA students? Guess again. And the information I posted applies to only the Adult Med rotation, you have no idea about our didactic year. I wish I could convey the barrage to you. In fact, you get a summer off in your first year. We most definitely do not. And I'm not trying to 'outdo' your education by posting the rotation curriculum, I'm trying to educate you on our training. We use Cecil and Harrison's (and every other text under the sun), same as you.

All that being said, I've already stated that you delve deeper into pathophys. Your Step 1 is more in-depth. For instance, we don't learn about the critmeter (at least in my program), and you probably do. We are trained to get out there as soon as possible, that is the mission. And trust me that the AMA and other Physician organizations which oversee our education are more than capable of insuring that we receive proper training ... if you disagree, why don't you write them and let them know how you feel.



My Bachelor's is from the University of California. I have taken Bio 1 2 and 3 with labs, Bio 3 used Lehninger as it's text. I've taken Chem 1 and 2, with labs. I've taken O Chem 1 with lab, and Biochem. I've taken Upper Div Cell, Neuroscience, and Micro with Lab. I've also taken Physiology with lab, where half the class is failed (the ultimate weeder course, trust me). Calculus, Statistics, etc. What I didn't take was Physics, which you had to (I wanted to, but there just wasn't time as I was Biopsych and I had to take a full Psych load on top of everything ... I still want to take Physics one day). Finally, there may be a few PA programs which don't require Anatomy and Physiology, but rest assured that they are not the norm. Do some more searching, and you'll see what I mean. I took Anatomy with labs in undergrad, and did so well that I was offered a paid position in the lab.

"Certainly not true" and you "are sure"? How you have the audacity to be so pompous is beyond me. Just how wagy thinks all PAs took their pre-reqs at community colleges LMAO

http://www.arcadia.edu/academic/default.aspx?id=8666

http://www.atsu.edu/ashs/programs/physician_assistant/admission_requirements.htm

http://medicine.utah.edu/upap/Admissions/admissions.htm

http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sc...n-assistant/applicants/admissions/prereqs.cfm

There are plenty more, trust me, I learned about it all when I reviewed every single program before I applied.

And as people keep stating, just because a website says '2.75 minimum', that is rarely the case. I received denials from 3 or 4 schools stating that my 3.5 was too far below the rest of the applicants.

And yup, found the book in the library. Good book.

Um, I wasn't being pompous (at least I don't believe so). It was stated (erroneously) that all PA programs require other specific undergraduate courses (e.g. Anatomy, Microbiology etc) and I gave an example from a reputable program does not require those things. There is no assumption. As I even stated, if someone can show me (from a national survey or something), that UMDNJ is the outlier in this than I would recant. No need to get personal.

StarPower, please do not take any of this personally. You seem like a very intelligent person, it would be a shame if this thread would begin to "degrade". So far, I thought it was a good discussion.

P.S. I LOVE that pathology book by Dr. Goljan (ask any med student what their fav book is 7/10, I would guess that book--it has EVERYTHING in it)

 

[FutureDoc4]

Considering its a DO program, not allopathic, I htink you can count it as a definite "no".

Prereqs vary from PA program to PA program, but most require anatomy, physiology, statistics, general chemistry, and a semester of organic chemistry. The biggest difference is physics, which most programs do not require. And if you want a good solid physical sciences MCAT score, you need physics.

This is a fantastic point. And not one I thought of. I honestly, did not notice that physics was not required. And I expect it would be difficult to do well on the physical sciences section without having completing physics.

 

[Starpower]

Um, I wasn't being pompous (at least I don't believe so). It was stated (erroneously) that all PA programs require other specific undergraduate courses (e.g. Anatomy, Microbiology etc) and I gave an example from a reputable program does not require those things. There is no assumption. As I even stated, if someone can show me (from a national survey or something), that UMDNJ is the outlier in this than I would recant. No need to get personal.

StarPower, please do not take any of this personally. You seem like a very intelligent person, it would be a shame if this thread would begin to "degrade". So far, I thought it was a good discussion.

P.S. I LOVE that pathology book by Dr. Goljan (ask any med student what their fav book is 7/10, I would guess that book--it has EVERYTHING in it)

You gave one link. That is hardly basis to ascertain "certainly not true", nor is it a foundation to base solid opinion on. Did you not take statistics? Further, when you enter someone's home for the first time, do you tell them how they live their life? Practice some humility with what you don't know, and it will carry you far not only in life but in care of your patients. Finally, I gave you multiple other links ... thanks for commenting (note sarcasm). As well, if someone said 'all' programs require A&P, it wasn't me ... I said "most", and this is true.

I unfortunately didn't have time to go through the entire book, but considering it gave me finer focus into that system, I can see why you value it so much!

 

[pado13]

Starpower,

I don't know how far along you are in your PA education, but, I would caution you to avoid comparing your education with medical students, residents, and attendings.

I'm a PA just finishing my first year of medical school. Graduated from a top 10 PA program and there is a difference in education between med and PA. Although you are equivalent and held to the same standards as rotating med students, it is impossible to compare medical and PA education. First year of medical school absolutely sucks and cannot be used in the same sentence as PA school. This is coming from someone who has experienced both. Hopefully, this can stop the bickering back and forth.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Starpower,

I don't know how far along you are in your PA education, but, I would caution you to avoid comparing your education with medical students, residents, and attendings.

I'm a PA just finishing my first year of medical school. Graduated from a top 10 PA program and there is a difference in education between med and PA. Although you are equivalent and held to the same standards as rotating med students, it is impossible to compare medical and PA education. First year of medical school absolutely sucks and cannot be used in the same sentence as PA school. This is coming from someone who has experienced both. Hopefully, this can stop the bickering back and forth.

That is pretty spot on.

 

[Starpower]

Starpower,

I don't know how far along you are in your PA education, but, I would caution you to avoid comparing your education with medical students, residents, and attendings.

I'm a PA just finishing my first year of medical school. Graduated from a top 10 PA program and there is a difference in education between med and PA. Although you are equivalent and held to the same standards as rotating med students, it is impossible to compare medical and PA education. First year of medical school absolutely sucks and cannot be used in the same sentence as PA school. This is coming from someone who has experienced both. Hopefully, this can stop the bickering back and forth.

Please read my posts more carefully, and feel free to get back to me when you have. Actually, the recent discussion has revolved around PA pre-reqs and the fact that not all PAs take their coursework at community colleges. You might want to better familiarize yourself with a discussion, before jumping in.

As well, per your topic, it would be great if you could post some details. There's plenty of 'it's more' thrown out there, but no specifics. Tell us the differences, in your eyes, between the educations. To be honest, I've only sat in on lectures of 3rd and 4th years. I have never sat in on a first-year lecture, although I do have a Step 1 review manual. I'll ignore your comment on residents and attendings.

 

[Makati2008]

You do seem to be overcompensating a bit there. If I were you I would be a little more respectful to those that have completed PA school and are CERTIFIED as well as those that have completed Medical school as well as PA school both.

They see the picture for what it truly is and I doubt that you can at this point in your career. I am/have been an ER PA for 4 years now and it's a team effort(NP/PA/MD/DO etc..) and I do not see how your attitude will get you far with YOUR team members.

Also it doesn't matter if you graduate from a top ten PA school, the PANCE doesn't care and the PANRE sure won't in six years(I am agreeing with PADO since he has done both)!

It sounds like to me maybe you want/wanted to attend medical school? I have not started medical school yet but I am willing to bet the house,car, and $ that MS1 will be infinitely harder than PA school(which I slept through a good bit if I might add).

My friends have told me pretty much to abide by Daunte's infamous quote for MS1/MS2-"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" lol.

PA school was not a cake walk by any stretch but I think medical school is a beast beyond comparison(I fear failing MS1). When you go through MS1 then please post as you like about the subject area.

I hope you the best in your career.
PS-Studying Step 1 material in PA school sounds a little like overkill....Step 2 material is a different beast.

 

[Starpower]

You do seem to be overcompensating a bit there. If I were you I would be a little more respectful to those that have completed PA school and are CERTIFIED as well as those that have completed Medical school as well as PA school both.

They see the picture for what it truly is and I doubt that you can at this point in your career. I am/have been an ER PA for 4 years now and it's a team effort(NP/PA/MD/DO etc..) and I do not see how your attitude will get you far with YOUR team members.

Also it doesn't matter if you graduate from a top ten PA school, the PANCE doesn't care and the PANRE sure won't in six years(I am agreeing with PADO since he has done both)!

It sounds like to me maybe you want/wanted to attend medical school? I have not started medical school yet but I am willing to bet the house,car, and $ that MS1 will be infinitely harder than PA school(which I slept through a good bit if I might add).

My friends have told me pretty much to abide by Daunte's infamous quote for MS1/MS2-"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" lol.

PA school was not a cake walk by any stretch but I think medical school is a beast beyond comparison(I fear failing MS1). When you go through MS1 then please post as you like about the subject area.

I hope you the best in your career.
PS-Studying Step 1 material in PA school sounds a little like overkill....Step 2 material is a different beast.

And to you as well, please familiarize yourself with a discussion before making assumptions. If you and others would read carefully, you would see that I have been defending a certain recent aspect of this thread. Namely, that most PA schools do require Anatomy and Physiology, and that no, most PA students do not necessarily take their prereqs at a community colllege. Is there anything about THAT which you or the other PA-MD poster would care to discuss? Or are you so blindsighted that all you can do is respond robotically to the 'lowly PA student who must be trying to equate themselves'?

If you are mistakenly assuming that I posted my Adult Med rotation curriculum in an attempt to try and 'out-do' any medical school education, then you are as guilty as the other poster. In fact, if you had READ what I wrote, you would see that I EXPLICITY stated I was not trying to 'out'do' anyone, I was simply trying to educate on the training that we receive since there were posts which indicated people did not understand.

Finally, I don't give respect or accolade to anyone not reading and understanding a situation and then making unfounded accusations. I don't care how "CERTIFIED" anyone is.

You obviously have little to no understanding of my "attitude", and you have mistakenly imposed an impression onto me which is hindering your objectivity.

I am ready to leave this conversation, as no one is obviously listening to a thing I'm saying anyways! *throws hands in air and heads back to the OR to work with a GREAT 'team'*

 

[Makati2008]

And to you as well, please familiarize yourself with a discussion before making assumptions. If you and others would read carefully, you would see that I have been defending a certain recent aspect of this thread. Namely, that most PA schools do require Anatomy and Physiology, and that no, most PA students do not necessarily take their prereqs at a community colllege. Is there anything about THAT which you or the other PA-MD poster would care to discuss? Or are you so blindsighted that all you can do is respond robotically to the 'lowly PA student who must be trying to equate themselves'?

If you are mistakenly assuming that I posted my Adult Med rotation curriculum in an attempt to try and 'out-do' any medical school education, then you are as guilty as the other poster. In fact, if you had READ what I wrote, you would see that I EXPLICITY stated I was not trying to 'out'do' anyone, I was simply trying to educate on the training that we receive since there were posts which indicated people did not understand.

Finally, I don't give respect or accolade to anyone not reading and understanding a situation and then making unfounded accusations. I don't care how "CERTIFIED" anyone is.

You obviously have little to no understanding of my "attitude", and you have mistakenly imposed an impression onto me which is hindering your objectivity.

I am ready to leave this conversation, as no one is obviously listening to a thing I'm saying anyways! *throws hands in air and heads back to the OR to work with a GREAT 'team'*

To be short about this, read the tone of your text? You also called yourself lowly? I have never called a PA student lowly since I was one myself. As far as your attitude, it WILL only hurt yourself and possibly will hinder your relationships with patients and colleagues alike. Ask someone unbiased to read your statements as well as mine.

The certified comment was made to show you that some of us have been from the bottom to top and we can see the PA program's for what they are in a better detail than someone who is still in the process currently. As far as you giving me respect personally I could careless. You are someone who I will never meet but was trying to give you some advice. (I give the older PA’s all the respect in the world due to them having it harder than I or you can EVER imagine.)

So throw your hands up in the air in disgust and have the me-against-the-world- super-angry tone. It only helps solidify my and probably a lot of others ideals of you. Waiting on the tone again…..I am willing to bet your a good bit older than myself. I will share I am 27? And yourself? Also maybe it would be better if we took our discussion off of the board such as gmail chat?

Apologize if I have typos, I am postcall and still in the ER.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Please read my posts more carefully, and feel free to get back to me when you have. Actually, the recent discussion has revolved around PA pre-reqs and the fact that not all PAs take their coursework at community colleges. You might want to better familiarize yourself with a discussion, before jumping in.

As well, per your topic, it would be great if you could post some details. There's plenty of 'it's more' thrown out there, but no specifics. Tell us the differences, in your eyes, between the educations. To be honest, I've only sat in on lectures of 3rd and 4th years. I have never sat in on a first-year lecture, although I do have a Step 1 review manual. I'll ignore your comment on residents and attendings.

I'll elaborate:

PA school is like running a 5k. You know it's short, you can keep the pace even if you are not in the greatest of shape, and it all ends before you really have a chance to feel the serious pain. There is pain, but it is quick, tough, and over as soon as it begins. Grand total of 2 major exams over an average of 2 years. PACRAT and PANCE. Neither are too tough an exam.

Medical school is like running a marathon. You have to keep pace or you run the risk of them closing the race on you at some point, and although the pain may not ever exceed that of PA school's 5K, and may in fact be less intense at any one point on the timeline, it is 3-4 times as long a journey. The journey is emotionally, physically, and financially devastating to many people. With medical school being 4 years, it alone is at least like running a half marathon, followed immediately without delay by another half marathon to full marathon called residency. Residency is even harder than the first half of the marathon called medical school. The minimum residency is 3 years, with many 4, some 5, and several 7-9 years depending on the choice one makes. The hours are infinitely brutal. The work hours restrictions are self policed and thus they actually do not exist unless you want to rat yourself and program out. Because of such many people work 100 plus hours a week.

Take it from someone who has been a PA student, a medical student, a resident precepting both types of students, and an attending now, that PA students by and large are treated differently by residents in academic hospitals. Residents often follow the tradition of eating their young so-to-speak and love to give the medical students grief. Sometimes unconsciously as I have witnessed on many occasions the PA students do not get quite as much grief. Often the rotations are shorter, like where a PA student spends one month on IM the med students might spend 2-3. Same with surgery. It's just a slightly different set of expectations and curriculi.

 

[corpsmanUP]

I am ready to leave this conversation, as no one is obviously listening to a thing I'm saying anyways! *throws hands in air and heads back to the OR to work with a GREAT 'team'*

Well then, don't let the OR door hit you on the way out of here!

 

[primadonna22274]

Bah-bye Starpower.

Those of us who've been the PA-Cs and med students/residents in the trenches for a while will carry on as we always have. It would behoove the "lowly PA student" to act a bit more humbly.

I do appreciate the "fire in the belly" of the young'uns but I appreciate more the well-aged wine of those who've been around the block a bit. I have, I think, fairly few preconceived notions about med school, except that I want to go, and I can and will do what it takes to learn what I need to get where I want to be.

 

[Makati2008]

Bah-bye Starpower.

Those of us who've been the PA-Cs and med students/residents in the trenches for a while will carry on as we always have. It would behoove the "lowly PA student" to act a bit more humbly.

I do appreciate the "fire in the belly" of the young'uns but I appreciate more the well-aged wine of those who've been around the block a bit. I have, I think, fairly few preconceived notions about med school, except that I want to go, and I can and will do what it takes to learn what I need to get where I want to be.

I agree with primadonna. The younger PA's(not age but in clinical practice as a PA) have a chance to make our great profession so much greater. But I do believe there is a proper and professional way to do it.(We as a profession don't want to give MD/DO any other reasons to hate us anymore than some do because without them there is no US(P.A.'s))

Read her blog its quite interesting to say the least. She is bashing Physicians, calling patients stupid as well. Remember she is a STUDENT. I hope she gets into touch with totally reality before it is too late for her or a patient.

http://myclinicalyear.blogspot.com/