PA-C to D.O. Bridge passes!!!!!

[Coastie]

I'll support a PA ~> DO bridge when any doctor can take the PANCE and become a PA.

Anyone?

We already have far more clinical/basic science knowledge. Why not allow us to sit for it, and be able to moonlight as a PA when we're residents?

Anyone?

That's what I thought..

What is the alternative? You don't give these groups an outlet and they will create their own solutions which is even worse, ie, the DNP and DPA. This bridge is not for everyone. Honestly, if I were a PA, I would think long and hard before I would do this bridge and probably not do it. What people need to understand is that sure you shave 1 year off medical school but are you compromising your competitiveness for residency by doing so? In the grand scheme of medical training, 1 year is a drop in the bucket. If you're going into FP, IM, psych, peds, it's fine to do this bridge. However, if you want something more competitive like derm, ortho, plastics, rads, ENT, etc, it's going to be hard for a 3 year bridge medical student to compete with a 4 year medical student who had more time to study for the boards (and do better) and to do research. Remember that medicine is very traditional. Program directors don't like to take chances. That's why there is still a lot of bias against DO's. Nevertheless, I support this proposal but people need to realize that they are rolling the dice by doing this bridge. If I were aiming high, I would just do the traditional 4 year route.

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[Coastie]

Emed,

I'm PRO PA.

But any residency prog that has you, a PA, precepting their residents, is drawing from the BOTTOM OF THE BARREL of losers of med school grads.

Sorry.

one of the worst pa students I ever had( and failed out) was a guy with a phd in a basic science field but zero common sense or clinical competence.
one of the worst fp residents I ever precepted had off the charts gpa/mcats/etc but zero bedside manner. he would insult pts to their faces(and not know it) and wonder why they complained about him. he was on probation all 3 yrs of his residency and barely graduated.
I have also had students who were just the opposite. great clinical skills and prior experience but unwilling or unable to crack a book.
an ideal clinician has to balance clinical acumen with academic achievement. too much of one and not enough of the other leads to problems down the line.

 

[bradt9881]

I'll support a PA ~> DO bridge when any doctor can take the PANCE and become a PA.

Anyone?

We already have far more clinical/basic science knowledge. Why not allow us to sit for it, and be able to moonlight as a PA when we're residents?

Anyone?

That's what I thought..

That was already tried in the 1990's for IMGs in California and Florida and it failed miserably. Lots of complaints against the PAs for substandard care and inability to work in a team. The restrictions had to be enacted for that reason....

 

[deleted6669]

Emed,

I'm PRO PA.

But any residency prog that has you, a PA, precepting their residents, is drawing from the BOTTOM OF THE BARREL of losers of med school grads.

Sorry.

guess again. it's a highly rated unopposed program. check around and you will find that lots of residency programs have pa's teaching residents on specialty services.em, ortho, icu are common examples.
I'm not teaching the fp residents family medicine, I'm teaching them fundamentals of em. most of what an fp doc will do in urgent care is the stuff done in er's by pa's, not em docs.
I can't remember the last time an em doc at my facility sutured a lac(regardless of complexity), did an I+D, removed an fb from anywhere, or did any minor procedure of any kind. this stuff is all done by the pa's. we also do all the treadmills in the obs unit.
you don't have to have md/do after your name to be able to teach.

 

[chimichanga]

...you don't have to have md/do after your name to be able to teach.

I knew a PA who taught a beginning/basic radiology course at Midwestern (D.O. students...can't remember specifics of what he taught though...)

 

[Coastie]

That was already tried in the 1990's for IMGs in California and Florida and it failed miserably. Lots of complaints against the PAs for substandard care and inability to work in a team. The restrictions had to be enacted for that reason....

So ban IMGs..

If PAs want PA ~> MD/DO, then the other way should be allowed as well.

Unfortunately for them, it would make PA a "second tier midlevel", while a MD who sat for the PA exam would be the preferred "midlevel" of choice.

 

[Coastie]

guess again. it's a highly rated unopposed program. check around and you will find that lots of residency programs have pa's teaching residents on specialty services.em, ortho, icu are common examples.
I'm not teaching the fp residents family medicine, I'm teaching them fundamentals of em. most of what an fp doc will do in urgent care is the stuff done in er's by pa's, not em docs.
I can't remember the last time an em doc at my facility sutured a lac(regardless of complexity), did an I+D, removed an fb from anywhere, or did any minor procedure of any kind. this stuff is all done by the pa's. we also do all the treadmills in the obs unit.
you don't have to have md/do after your name to be able to teach.

Guess again emed. The ACGME requires that physicians teach residents, not midlevels.

I've seen the PAs that "teach" in the ICU, ortho, etc. It's not teaching, it's more like "here is the paperwork, computer codes, bathroom", maybe some help on the first call with nursing prefs...

I'll repeat it again..Any residency that has PAs "precepting" as you put it, is a BOTTOM OF THE BARREL program.

Doctors should teach residents, period!

 

[vanessa10]

wow... this is definitely Great News!!!
does anybody now what are exactly all the prereqs?? what abt years of experience required?? etc..

 

[corpsmanUP]

Guess again emed. The ACGME requires that physicians teach residents, not midlevels.

I've seen the PAs that "teach" in the ICU, ortho, etc. It's not teaching, it's more like "here is the paperwork, computer codes, bathroom", maybe some help on the first call with nursing prefs...

I'll repeat it again..Any residency that has PAs "precepting" as you put it, is a BOTTOM OF THE BARREL program.

Doctors should teach residents, period!

You are really being a jerk. Midlevels though not physicians do have some experience that can be passed on. When I was a resident we received lectures from RN's, precepted in the OR under CRNA's, and Pharm D's.

 

[deleted6669]

You are really being a jerk. Midlevels though not physicians do have some experience that can be passed on. When I was a resident we received lectures from RN's, precepted in the OR under CRNA's, and Pharm D's.

I also recall one of your posts where you talked about the excellent pa's who precepted you in the icu.....

 

[Starpower]

Emed,

I'm PRO PA.

But any residency prog that has you, a PA, precepting their residents, is drawing from the BOTTOM OF THE BARREL of losers of med school grads.

Sorry.

Hey Emed, bet your group is going to be offering this one a spot real soon, aren't they lol

They remind me of the 'esteemed Resident' who couldn't even do a basic blood draw without a geyser spewing out all over the floor. Total Cream of the Crop! lol

But yea, you, who works overnight EM solo, and has worked, what, 20 or 30 years, have nothing to teach them. Of course not.

I worked with an IM Resident who came on thinking the PA who had worked there for 40 years was a lowly grunt. Man did she change her tune real quick.

 

[Starpower]

You know, I have to say ... maturity rocks. Immaturity ... not so much.

 

[corpsmanUP]

I also recall one of your posts where you talked about the excellent pa's who precepted you in the icu.....

Yes don't let me forget to again mention the incredible PA's that ran our level 1 ICU at night. We were not always fortunate enough to have a night ICU attending in house, but we always had 3-4 well trained PA's, a few residents, and an attending within a few minutes. These PA's were incredible.

 

[Miss July]

How exciting! I chose PA school because I wanted to start studying medicine but it is also very important that I'm able to have a personal life and a family. Thinking about my future I've entertained the idea of doing med school when my (hypothetical) kids are off to school, not only for the opportunity to advance my education, but also my salary. (And also so I could quit having to explain to everyone that I am not a freaking MA! But that's another issue) It would be great to have a bridge program opportunity!

 

[bradt9881]

Bah-bye Starpower.

Those of us who've been the PA-Cs and med students/residents in the trenches for a while will carry on as we always have. It would behoove the "lowly PA student" to act a bit more humbly.

I do appreciate the "fire in the belly" of the young'uns but I appreciate more the well-aged wine of those who've been around the block a bit. I have, I think, fairly few preconceived notions about med school, except that I want to go, and I can and will do what it takes to learn what I need to get where I want to be.

Congrats, Lisa, on getting accepted to the program!

 

[Starpower]

I keep forgetting, bradt, are you 50 or 5?

 

[bradt9881]

Why does me congratulating someone for a med school acceptance warrant an insult from you?

Maybe you should check the attitude at the door and be the one to grow up.....

 

[primadonna22274]

Hey thanks Brad...I am excited and a teensy bit nervous

Congrats, Lisa, on getting accepted to the program!

 

[g8orlife]

I read and agree with a few posts above stating that APAP is best with PAs with much work experience. One example is for residency matching because experienced PAs have more hospital connections and probably don't have to attend as many residency interviews.

But since APAP is open for new grads, how do you guys/gals think the new grads would fare in matching with a competitive residency?

 

[deleted6669]

But since APAP is open for new grads, how do you guys/gals think the new grads would fare in matching with a competitive residency?

Probably depends on your board scores and rotation grades and LOR's.
I would be surprised if any new grads get seats in this program. with fewer than 20 spots/yr I would think that most/all would go to experienced folks...wouldn't hurt to talk to dr kaufman though. nice guy. I exchanged a bunch of emails with him when the program was announced.

 

[primadonna22274]

Anyone who knows E knows he is the "patron saint of prior medical experience"
I'm pretty well-aligned with him in that respect, and I think for APAP those with at least a few years of experience will get more of a look than a new grad...but I know personally one new grad who would do well in this program because he is hungry for it. He reads constantly (better than I can say of some of my students) That said, he and I have discussed it and I think he'll at least work for a couple of years to get his feet wet and make a conscientious decision whether to go further. He's also only 23 years old
I don't really know what to say about residency matching...I think it will help that I've taught in an academic medical institution, but I still believe there will be a lot of "proving" that has to happen on the individual student level in clinical rotations and I'm a little concerned about the likelihood of matching outside of primary care for those who wish to seek more competitive residencies. For me, IM is the end-all be-all so I'm not too concerned about it myself, but I know folks who would want to specialize and it might be better for them to attend a traditional 4-year program where they have more rotation time & more opportunity to form linkages with possible future residency programs...but the future is unwritten.

I read and agree with a few posts above stating that APAP is best with PAs with much work experience. One example is for residency matching because experienced PAs have more hospital connections and probably don't have to attend as many residency interviews.

But since APAP is open for new grads, how do you guys/gals think the new grads would fare in matching with a competitive residency?

 

[oldManDO2009]

I highly doubt it will kill the DNP. Most people that would be willing to get a DNP in the first place wouldn't want to go through the rigors of residency.....

I do personally hope they accept people that have been practicing as P.A.'s for a set number of years instead of those who have no experience(whether it is clinical or academic) but I couldn't fathom making a seven year(med. school and residency) sentence into a ten year one(PA school +Med. school +residency).

I think this program will fit those have been practicing for a several years and would like to gain independent practice. I hope that the AMA/AOA will fully embrace these programs as viable ways to alleviate physician shortages.

PS-As of yesterday the PA/DO bridge IS a reality.

In my opinion most of what you learn in terms of patient management and well medicine in general really comes to fruition in residency. I am responsible for my patients and their outcomes (with attending oversight) as a resident and have learned a thing or two with repetition and time.

So residency is the key and often overlooked when comparing the various healthcare providers and this bridge as stated is a huge commitment in time and energy but seems like it be a great opportunity for those looking to be doctor.

My only other thought is it seems a bit long. PA schools have been traditionally tied to medical schools and have similar curriculum and structured clerkships (unlike some NP/DNP programs) . If the courses PA's took were the same as medical students why not structure the first 2 years of didactic instruction to include the clerkship and have a total of 2 years (since their initial training was around 3 years) of training and then residency. They would be required to pass step I & II a great screening tool for the academically ill prepared....

 

[deleted6669]

e doctor.

My only other thought is it seems a bit long. PA schools have been traditionally tied to medical schools and have similar curriculum and structured clerkships (unlike some NP/DNP programs) . If the courses PA's took were the same as medical students why not structure the first 2 years of didactic instruction to include the clerkship and have a total of 2 years (since their initial training was around 3 years) of training and then residency. They would be required to pass step I & II a great screening tool for the academically ill prepared....

the bridge program is 8 weeks longer than the min required # weeks to be an accredited med school in the u.s....can't trim off too much more and keep it "legal".
what I would like to see is pa's exempted from individual courses during those 3 yrs by testing out of them. I'm not talking physiology or anything "real" but "intro to clinical medicine", medical ethics, cross cultural medicine, etc courses that were 100% the same in pa school as med school.

 

[redroses1100]

Where is this school located at?

 

[Narnian]

LECOM

Lake Erie, PA.

 

[Socrates25]

Yes don't let me forget to again mention the incredible PA's that ran our level 1 ICU at night. We were not always fortunate enough to have a night ICU attending in house, but we always had 3-4 well trained PA's, a few residents, and an attending within a few minutes. These PA's were incredible.

Oh god I can see where this is going. Here come the war stories about PAs playing god:

1. Resident have to ask the PAs for all attempts at lines and intubations

2. PAs "supervise" residents during rounds, sign their charts, and change the plan

3. PAs present all patients to the attending directly while the residents report to the PA ONLY!

Please tell us the name of this institution where PAs "run the show"

BTW, what ICU is this that has "several residents" along with PAs covering it every night? To need that kind of manpower it surely must be at least a 75 bed unit

 

[Narnian]

It might be a teaching ICU,... I have worked with various residents, pharm-d students and PA students in the past in the ICU. I would not say they were "covering" it. It was more like they were shadowing and trying not to kill anyone with the intensivist trying to teach them about vents and swan lines and how to keep someone alive against all odds (sometimes against their will).

 

[PharmBound2011]

Oh god I can see where this is going. Here come the war stories about PAs playing god:

1. Resident have to ask the PAs for all attempts at lines and intubations

2. PAs "supervise" residents during rounds, sign their charts, and change the plan

3. PAs present all patients to the attending directly while the residents report to the PA ONLY!

Please tell us the name of this institution where PAs "run the show"

BTW, what ICU is this that has "several residents" along with PAs covering it every night? To need that kind of manpower it surely must be at least a 75 bed unit

why so insecure?

No one said that but YOU. I see you're gung-ho on attacking any statement that acknowledges that PAs are effective providers. Great job buddy

 

[MDub83]

I'll support a PA ~> DO bridge when any doctor can take the PANCE and become a PA.

Anyone?

We already have far more clinical/basic science knowledge. Why not allow us to sit for it, and be able to moonlight as a PA when we're residents?

Anyone?

That's what I thought..

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with this, Internet Tough Guy.

 

[redroses1100]

I heard this as well and confirmed it yesterday.
official announcement from the program in 2 weeks.
it's been a long time in coming.
first class will be only 12 students.
all of ms1 and ms2 then a hybrid clinical yr.
mcat and all nl prereqs still required.

Are you going to the PA to DO bridge program?

 

[Super Medic]

Ok first to become to become a

EMT-B = 140hr + 12hr ER rotation = 150hr

6 months field Experience as a BLS

EMT-P = 1yr with over 500 ALS rotations

Total = 2 full years to become a NREMT-P


RN's are not even thought in nursing school how to give a Flu Shot lol

when RN's finish school they'r spinning in the ER like a 1 yr old watching a Barney movie in the doctros office lol oh i forgot they do know how to change a Pamper....Rock on

 

[Challenge]

What is the alternative? You don't give these groups an outlet and they will create their own solutions which is even worse, ie, the DNP and DPA. This bridge is not for everyone. Honestly, if I were a PA, I would think long and hard before I would do this bridge and probably not do it. What people need to understand is that sure you shave 1 year off medical school but are you compromising your competitiveness for residency by doing so? In the grand scheme of medical training, 1 year is a drop in the bucket. If you're going into FP, IM, psych, peds, it's fine to do this bridge. However, if you want something more competitive like derm, ortho, plastics, rads, ENT, etc, it's going to be hard for a 3 year bridge medical student to compete with a 4 year medical student who had more time to study for the boards (and do better) and to do research. Remember that medicine is very traditional. Program directors don't like to take chances. That's why there is still a lot of bias against DO's. Nevertheless, I support this proposal but people need to realize that they are rolling the dice by doing this bridge. If I were aiming high, I would just do the traditional 4 year route.

I totally agree with statement above.

If you're okay or happy with going into not so competitive residencies (FM..etc) or at any non-competitive DO residencies, I think this program is of a great value to any PAs who desire to become a physician.
However, it will be very tough to get into competitive allopathic residencies (allopathic EM, ENT, anethesiology, derm..etc) after 3 year PA-DO bridge program. (Imagine having to take both USMLE, COMPLEX and obtain high scores on each within short amount of time with not much break in between 2nd and 3rd year and shortly after apply for residencies in the Fall while you're also preparing for USMLE II working non-stop as MSIII)

I work at a big highly academic well-known institution in NYC. IMHO, I don't think program directors at a big academic institution will look upon this PA-DO bridge program equally as other traditional programs despite previous years of our clinical experience as a PA. Those program directors at a highly academic prestigious institution also look for candidates with good scholarly experience (research, publications, teaching etc), high USMLE scores and your med school GPAs..

Even though I have both graduate degrees in biomedical science and PA studies, it will still be tough to review all other hard-core science courses that I already took many years ago. I would still need plenty of time to study for the boards regardless. People forget. Most doctors (no matter how smart he/she is) can't remember all those pathophysiology, Anatomy and physio...etc.


My humble opinion.

 

[Fedekz]

This is real exciting, as an EMT I am hoping that they create a EMT/RN bridge. We pretty much have the same course work as RN's. Also I feel that we have more experience. I think that these bridge programs are at the cutting edge of medicine. The only problem with the PA/DO bridge is that they should just be called DO, it would be weird to have a doctor titled PA/DO.

My friend, an EMT-Intermediate is still pretty far away from an RN to be able to have a bridge program. An EMT-I class was available to me a while back, I would have been completed in 2 months (class and clinicals included)... but decided to just go with the paramedic program.

 

[Fedekz]

Ok first to become to become a

EMT-B = 140hr + 12hr ER rotation = 150hr

6 months field Experience as a BLS

EMT-P = 1yr with over 500 ALS rotations

Total = 2 full years to become a NREMT-P


RN's are not even thought in nursing school how to give a Flu Shot lol

when RN's finish school they'r spinning in the ER like a 1 yr old watching a Barney movie in the doctros office lol oh i forgot they do know how to change a Pamper....Rock on

6 months field experience isn't required for all programs, and some paramedic programs aren't a year with 500 ALS hours (hopefully not 500 rotations). There are paramedic programs that are accelerated and are 10 weeks long + 396 clinical hours (ambulance and hospital combined). So one could go "zero to hero" from basic to paramedic in about 6 months or less (this includes taking a basic class too...).

 

[FireCloud9]

6 months field experience isn't required for all programs, and some paramedic programs aren't a year with 500 ALS hours (hopefully not 500 rotations). There are paramedic programs that are accelerated and are 10 weeks long + 396 clinical hours (ambulance and hospital combined). So one could go "zero to hero" from basic to paramedic in about 6 months or less (this includes taking a basic class too...).

Would you happen to have any information handy that points to some of the shorter programs? I'm particularly interested in those that happen to be in northern CA - Sacramento region.

 

[deleted6669]

there are 1 yr paramedic to rn bridge programs out there.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Weren't there already programs like this (http://lecom.edu/college-medicine.php/Accelerated-Physician-Assistant-Pathway-APAP/49/2205/612/2395) What is the difference

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Is it me or do PAs not get pathology in PA school. And if they do, it's not a separate course apparently http://paprogram.mc.duke.edu/PA-Program/Curriculum/

I mean obviously they get some pathology, but sorry without a full Pathology course, that is a huge difference. I don't think the length of school matters, when you consider the pace and amount of information differences.

 

[Mad Jack]

Weren't there already programs like this (http://lecom.edu/college-medicine.php/Accelerated-Physician-Assistant-Pathway-APAP/49/2205/612/2395) What is the difference

You really need to learn to read the date of the OP, my friend. It's like you picked up a paper from 9/11/01 and read, "Breaking News: Terrorists Attack World Trade Center" and were like, "didn't that like, already happen?"

At the time this thread was started, the LECOM program had just been granted the go ahead.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

You really need to learn to read the date of the OP, my friend. It's like you picked up a paper from 9/11/01 and read, "Breaking News: Terrorists Attack World Trade Center" and were like, "didn't that like, already happen?"

At the time this thread was started, the LECOM program had just been granted the go ahead.

Wow dude thanks, I just realized I need to stop drinking so much coffee

 

[primadonna22274]

Is it me or do PAs not get pathology in PA school. And if they do, it's not a separate course apparently http://paprogram.mc.duke.edu/PA-Program/Curriculum/

I mean obviously they get some pathology, but sorry without a full Pathology course, that is a huge difference. I don't think the length of school matters, when you consider the pace and amount of information differences.

We had decent path in my PA program but it was not nearly as in-depth as in medical school. Also, the study resources have EXPLODED since I was in PA school 15 years ago (thank you so much Dr Sattar for Pathoma!!). In general, medicine knowledge has also grown quite a bit in 15 years. I actually consider myself quite lucky to have been able to learn it all over again and learn it better.