Pathology Job Market

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Soma13

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Is the job market really as bad as everyone says it is. For instance, how long would it take for someone to get a private practice job in the New York city area that leads to partnership? Are there really alot of pathologists that cant find jobs and even more that cant find jobs there are looking for?

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Contrary to your belief, the job market for pathology is improving a lot now and in my school, residents found job without any problems. The bad job market was just an phenomena of 5 years ago. Now things has been changed.

Here is a summarization from the survey of ASCP conducted in 2002:

Dr. Szczesniak compiled the summary and summarized the following results.

Of the respondents, 61% were in their last year of residency and 39% were true fellows. The vast majority of respondents (94%) were AP/CP trained while 5% were trained only in AP and the remaining 1% were trained only in CP. Of the total respondents, 11% applied for both pathology jobs and fellowships, 50% applied only for jobs, 36% applied only for fellowships, and 3% did not apply for either jobs or fellowships.

Of the 61% of the respondents who applied for a job, 41% applied for 1-3 jobs, 21% applied for 4-6 jobs, 19% for 7-10 jobs, and 14% for greater than 10 jobs. Of those who applied for a job, 3% did not receive an interview, 66% received 1-3 interviews, 28% received 4-6 interviews, and 3% received 7-10 interviews. Of those who applied for pathology jobs 5% did not receive a job offer, 38% received one job offer, 23% received two job offers, 18% received three job offers, and 16% received greater than three job offers. This represented an average of at least 2.0 jobs per respondent who applied for pathology jobs (compared to at least 1.8 job offers per respondent last year (2001), at least 1.6 job offers per respondent in 1999, and at least 1.3 job offers per respondent in 1998). Thus, for the period of time from 1998 to 2002, the number of offers per respondent has increased over 50%. Forty percent of those who applied for jobs received a job offer at their own place of residency or fellowship, which is a small increase from last year (38%).

Fifty-seven percent of those who applied for jobs sought community practice positions, 27% sought academic positions, 14% had no preference, and 2% sought "other" positions. When asked about their impressions of where most available positions could be found, 32% responded academic positions, 63% community practice, and 5% responded other situations. Of those who received at least one job offer, 63% were offered greater than $125,000, 23% were offered $101,000 - $125,000, 8% were offered $76,000 - $100,000, 2% were offered less than $75,000 and almost 4% did not discuss a starting salary with potential employers. There has been a consistent increase in the percentage of respondents with starting salaries offered in the greater than $125,000 range, which may partially be attributed to standard of living increases which help adjust for inflation.

Sixty eight percent of those who applied for jobs restricted their search to a specific geographic region while 32% did not. Of those who restricted their job search to a specific area, family issues accounted for the greatest influence (40%), being a native of the area was considered of next importance (30%), restriction due to a spouse's job was third (25%), and professional contacts in an area was least important (5%). The most common region of the country to which residents restricted their job search was the Midwest (30%), followed by the Southeast (22%), Southwest (17%), and Northeast (17%). The Northwest (13%) was the least common region for restricting a job search.

All of the respondents were asked to rate a series of issues regarding importance in seeking employment in the current job market. Those issues that were most important included the applicants' perception of staff and institution at interview, job availability in a specific geographic region, and long-term job security. These were closely followed in importance by opportunities for career advancement, family factors (e.g., spouse's job, children's school, etc.), and salary considerations. Least important were opportunities to do research, opportunities to teach, and fiscal pressures (e.g., school loan repayment). As in previous years, faculty/word of mouth was scored as the most helpful source in learning about job opportunities (69%). The CAP job listing (11%), electronic media (8%), journal classifieds (6%), and random mailings (6%) were rated nearly the same in learning of job opportunities.

Thirty-six percent of the respondents applied for fellowship positions only, while 11% applied for both fellowship positions and jobs. Of those who applied for fellowships, 98% received at least one fellowship offer. Seventy-five percent of those who pursued fellowship training did so for long term career interests, 17% felt it was necessary in order to secure employment, and 2% stated that their desired job was not available after residency.

The ASCP-RPS has been committed to tracking the job market for pathology residents and fellows for the past seven years. This year's survey would suggest that the outlook for pathology opportunities continues to be strong: 95% of respondents who applied for a job were offered a job and 98% of respondents who applied for a fellowship were offered a fellowship. These numbers have improved greatly since 1997 when 35% of respondents were not offered a job. The strong trend over the past five years is encouraging for those currently in training and for medical students making the decision to choose pathology as a career. The recent change from the American Board of Pathology to reduce residency training from five to four years before an applicant may sit for the pathology boards will be a factor to watch in the overall job market and in the numbers of applicants to fellowship training in the coming years.

It is important to realize that this survey is distributed in early spring and some of the respondents may not have finalized their job/fellowship plans prior to returning the survey. Therefore, it is likely that this survey underestimates the number of respondents acquiring jobs and fellowship positions.

"It is prudent to mention that the number of respondents are down significantly from years past, and have been steadily declining. We will continue to encourage recent graduates to complete these surveys as the information is invaluable to upcoming graduates," said Dr. Szczesniak. "I think most Pathologists would agree that the market looks good right now for graduates, but I think a 95% success rate in finding a job may not be completely accurate, based on such few respondents. However, the overall results provide a useful snapshot of the current job market from year to year."
 
It seems like most all of the residents to complete our program in the last few years have gotten jobs. I think it's a good time to be going into path.
 
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From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?
 
Just because something catches your interest doesnt mean you can make a good career out of it. Pathology is way too risky. It is very saturated. Volumes are down at many institutions and some pathologists are contemplating early retirement. Go into a field with a good future.
 
Just because something catches your interest doesnt mean you can make a good career out of it. Pathology is way too risky. It is very saturated. Volumes are down at many institutions and some pathologists are contemplating early retirement. Go into a field with a good future.

The job market is not great in pathology. If you truly enjoy pathology go for it. If you arent then I would recommend looking at another field. From reading this forum for the past 5 years, talking with residents and from what I've been hearing, you will find A job. You may not find it in the place you want to live, but that is not to say you can't find a job an hour or so away and you can look to relocate after a few years.

I am not in practice yet, but it seems like with in office labs, a lot of pathologists are losing specimens and therefore revenue. So, there are a few things going on in the pathology market that is having an impact (sometimes huge) on private practice pathology. There are a fair number of academic jobs out there. So you may be able to land a job in the city of your choice in academia depending on availability.
 
From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?


My advice: Listen to what your instincts are trying to tell you.
 
From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?
the only other field in medicine where you can do a lot of path (e.g. look at slides) is derm. If you do derm and then a dermpath fellowship, then you can do as much dermpath as you wish. Obviously derm is insanely competitive.
 
From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?

What motivates you? Lots of money or enjoying what you do? I don't mean that in a condescending way either - I'm not here to judge. It's just that, for a lot of people, those two don't go hand in hand. Fact is, you likely won't get rich in pathology and have less options than in other specialties. Financially, however, will live a comfortable life by any sane person's opinion and you will have reasonable work/life balance.

If you are genuinely interested in the field and value content of your job over the financial prospects, keep pursuing. If the dollar side is more important to you, you probably want to stay away, your odds are better elsewhere.

Just remember, markets do change even in the short term. What may seem like an easy way to make a ton of cash with a reasonable lifestyle now may not be the same in the future (i.e. radiology). Any specialty that offers high compensation with a stable working environment is going to be flooded by people that want that life, thereby causing that market to change. Or, in the case where the players in that market have managed to create high barriers to entry and control the supply of the service providers (i.e. dermatology), good luck getting your foot in the door.

Surgeons are likely always going to be at the top of the food chain, but they are also going to be on call all the time working insane hours. So, like anything in life, there are gives and takes.
 
If you are into survey data then keep an eye out for a recent survey that was conducted by the graduate education committees from the CAP and Association of Pathology Chairs. Please hold they negative comments any of you may have about either organization because it is useless in this discussion! Myself and some other fellows that I know who were searching for jobs this past year received and completed the survey. When I inquired about the timeline for results I was told that they could be available as early as July. Anyway, everyone on these forums seems to like to bash survey results that are posted on here, but I can at least vouch that this recent survey is getting out to at least some of the correct population (ie. fellows in training who were looking for jobs this past year). I am interested to see the results.

Did any other current fellow out there reading this get the same survey back in early June from Dr. Michael Talbert of the CAP Graduate Educaion Committee entitled " Pathology Job Market - Please Provide Input"?


Pathguy11
 
If you are into survey data then keep an eye out for a recent survey that was conducted by the graduate education committees from the CAP and Association of Pathology Chairs. Please hold they negative comments any of you may have about either organization because it is useless in this discussion! Myself and some other fellows that I know who were searching for jobs this past year received and completed the survey. When I inquired about the timeline for results I was told that they could be available as early as July. Anyway, everyone on these forums seems to like to bash survey results that are posted on here, but I can at least vouch that this recent survey is getting out to at least some of the correct population (ie. fellows in training who were looking for jobs this past year). I am interested to see the results.

Did any other current fellow out there reading this get the same survey back in early June from Dr. Michael Talbert of the CAP Graduate Educaion Committee entitled " Pathology Job Market - Please Provide Input"?

Pathguy11

No.
 
Saw this survey too. I guess it was sent out to all residents? I think I've seen it at least twice now.
 
It doesn't matter what the survey shows. If the survey shows that things are not all that bad, those who think things are bad will say the survey is wrong. If the survey shows that things are bad, those who think things are not all that bad will say the survey is wrong.
 
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Did any other current fellow out there reading this get the same survey back in early June from Dr. Michael Talbert of the CAP Graduate Educaion Committee entitled " Pathology Job Market - Please Provide Input"?


Pathguy11

Yes. I got it. I didn't fill it out though- the first question was if you were "actively looking for" a job. I was only passively looking for one!
 
It doesn't matter what the survey shows. If the survey shows that things are not all that bad, those who think things are bad will say the survey is wrong. If the survey shows that things are bad, those who think things are not all that bad will say the survey is wrong.

You make a great point! I am still interested in what the data shows though. I am not one to side with either extremes, but rather look at it for what it is.

Pathguy11
 
This is great. A thread about the terrible job market going back almost to the 1900's. Still waiting on that big retirement wave I guess...
 
This field needs more annonymous people setting up websites/facebook pages. That will fix all our problems. :rolleyes:

If people want data, it might be a good idea to reveal who you are.
 
We recently had a university-associated opening at an offsite hospital and the opening got over 50 applications. This is no exaggeration. I don't even know where the opening was advertised.
 
My thoughts:

1. 40% of the residents surveyed are FMGs. This is too many. I'm sorry. Just..no.

2. Most graduating residents would not feel confident independently signing out without a "surg path" fellowship. If this doesn't illustrate the lack of appropriate residency training, a dearth of qualified residents, or both, then I don't know what to tell you.

3. Only 48 people applied for a job straight out of residency, and 40% of them (19 people approx) received no offers. The rest of the residents do a fellowship. So it seems fellowships are really not optional, just tacked on extra years of residency.

4. Of those that obtained work after residency, 14% were paid less than 100k. Even a part-time position should pay more than this. Something's wrong with the job market if a shill has to accept such a low-ball job.

5. 40% of residents have no student loans, which matches the FMG contingent.

This is nuts.

Perhaps us pathologists should consider jumping ship to the NBPAS and ramp up the expectations for licensing. Most of these graduates should probably fail anyways.

The CAP is clearly a failure in this regard. Pathology manpower quality is not a priority for them, nor should it be, since to balance this would negatively affect their revenues. Bad programs and too many FMGs will continue to thrive in pathology. Seems like the only way we could hope to stem the tide is to make certification brutally hard to obtain.
 
Decade old thread still relevant...still no jobs.

Pathology....the six figure debt gamble for american grads. Don't do it. There will never be a shortage and its not right around the freaking corner. It will never happen (pathologists are stuck in the friend zone, and you aren't getting out no matter how much you want/hope....haha).
 
Interesting. I had a job offer (academics) before I graduated med school -- we'll see if it is still good now that it is 4 years later. Pretty much everyone who has trained at my institution has found positions (jobs or fellowships -- although not always their first choice of either). We'll see how things look when boards are behind me and I start ramping up the job search as my fellowship begins. I am actually optimistic (mayhaps, naively so, according to most on this board).

Of course I also have an excellent backup plan, which helps alleviate stress :)

- chooks
 
In regards to this petition: Well, if you are going to make your issue the current state of the job market, probably best to NOT focus on current influential peoples' projections of the state of the workforce in the future. While these two things are related, they are most definitely not the same.

If you are going to make your issue the future state of the job market, while the current market is relevant, it is most definitely not the whole story.

So don't mix your problems. Your "evidence" is mainly anecdotal. This isn't evidence. "It isn't hard to find a pathologist over the age of 75". That isn't evidence either. It might not be hard to find, but that doesn't mean 50% of pathologists do this. From what I have seen, a lot of data accounts for this. Actuarial data shows when people retire. Your anecdotes or guesses don't trump that. If older pathologists are retiring later, guess what, in 20 years that is less relevant because whether they retired at 65 or 75 they are still retired in 20 years.

I'm sorry but if you want this to go anywhere you need to be more thoughtful and have actual data. You can't refute data with hand waving and "Come on!".

YOu do make a lot of good points in the petition but unfortunately it is lost in anecdotes, assumptions, breathless disbelief, and ignoring the most important points. Trim, focus, spell check, and refute.
 
Made it past "PATHLOGISTS", but stopped at "antomic". My 5 year old spells better than this.
 
Spelling is corrected.

If you have hard data, better than "anecdotal evidence", please email you data to [email protected]
If not, please SIGN A PETITION and be heard:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/oversupply-of-pathologists-in-the-us

http://pathologistoversupply.weebly.com/about.html

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oversupply-of-Pathologists-in-the-US/1548366392082748

Situation will not get fixed by itself. Sarcasm, cynicism, or complaining about FMG will not help you. When you are in over supply, than people with very little education and with less spelling abilities than kids (almighty hospital administrators !) decide about your survival. Sorry, but your knowledge of pathology has no value when there are too many of us available and even more in the pipeline.
 
people with very little education and with less spelling abilities than kids (almighty hospital administrators !)

No offense, but hospital administrators aren't almighty and they don't know **** about medicine. The lab might as well be on Mars as far as they are concerned. They have a different toolbox than us that allows them to fill in an intermediate role between the hospital and the regulators, press, banks, hospital board, and so on. It would behoove you to dig into that other toolbox as soon and as deeply as possible.
 
Here's another tip: Asking for others to do your heavy lifting and work for you while you rant and then criticize everyone else for being out of touch is also not a great way to go. It smacks of a weak argument if you make all these complaints, people counter with data, and you say the data is wrong or flawed. But then your response to "well show us data" is, "Can't someone else do it?"

You're saying the situation will not get fixed by itself. True. It will also not get fixed by complaining, ignoring or dismissing valid arguments based on data, and getting indignant that others are not "seeing the light" as you are.

As an example, you are criticizing CAP (I guess, among others) for saying pathologists retire at age 65. But if you actually look at the article on workforce from 2013, here's what they say: The average age at which pathologists reported they planned to retire is at 66.5 years, which is nearly 5 years later than 20 years ago.22 Many shift to part-time work 2.7 years earlier (at age 63.8 years) (Figure 3). During recent times, pathologists older than 55 years have reported their planned retirement age will rise by about 4 years from age 67 to 71 years.

Clearly they are saying 65. :rolleyes:

If it were me I would focus on the statements like, "The third prediction of our model considers that the demand for pathologist FTE effort will not remain constant over time, but will increase." Personally, I think that is highly debatable. But it is also exceedingly difficult to model. One has to decide whether pathologists in their current state are overworked and relatively inefficient, or are in fact underworked or efficient. And how will these change with 1) increasing technology, and 2) increasing aging of the population, combined with 3) declining reimbursement which would probably decrease impetus to work harder/longer, and 4) increasing consolidation of labs and hospitals.

To me, that latter part is the key question, not actual numbers of pathologists. You can't argue the actual numbers. That's legitimate data. Getting hung up on retirement age of 65 or 68 or 72 is basically like arguing about the frame on the picture.
 
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It is not me who is hung on retirement age, you are. You are coming back to it as if it was the centerpiece of my letter.

The centerpiece is somewhere else: RESIDENTS IN PATHOLOGY ARE TRAINED FOR POSITIONS THAT DO NOT EXIST. Way too many residents are admitted into Pathology, not to replace retiring pathologists, but to bring money to departments. The consequence is under or unemployment of many pathologists. Pathologists are therefore on the mercy of administrators and clinicians. Not because they are stupid or bad professionals, but because they can be very easily replaced. Everyone knows that, but Robboy and CAP.
 
It is not me who is hung on retirement age, you are. You are coming back to it as if it was the centerpiece of my letter.

The centerpiece is somewhere else: RESIDENTS IN PATHOLOGY ARE TRAINED FOR POSITIONS THAT DO NOT EXIST. Way too many residents are admitted into Pathology, not to replace retiring pathologists, but to bring money to departments. The consequence is under or unemployment of many pathologists. Pathologists are therefore on the mercy of administrators and clinicians. Not because they are stupid or bad professionals, but because they can be very easily replaced. Everyone knows that, but Robboy and CAP.

Just to break down my impression of your arguments...

"RESIDENTS IN PATHOLOGY ARE TRAINED FOR POSITIONS THAT DO NOT EXIST." .... Maybe, sure seems like a lot of anecdotal evidence for this. For at least SOME trainees, who make up a small minority of applicants.

Way too many residents are admitted into Pathology, not to replace retiring pathologists, but to bring money to departments.
... This sounds like nonsense to me. It's been discussed previously on this board that there is no net gain for the department or institution to get trainees. It's far more effective for them to hire PAs that gross all day and don't take time off to "learn" or have to be re-trained every year.

The consequence is under or unemployment of many pathologists..... Maybe. But I bet this has to do a lot more with the reimbursement cuts and loss of research funding than it does with any devious goals of academic departments.

Pathologists are therefore on the mercy of administrators and clinicians. ... Not sure what this is supposed to mean. Was this not always the case? Should we not have to answer to our bosses or referring physicians?

Not because they are stupid or bad professionals, but because they can be very easily replaced. ... I see a lot of people on this board complain that there are not enough jobs out there (and complain that IM's get offers when they start residency)... but I haven't seen anyone complain that they lost their job because they were easily replaced. They had no value, and a new trainee is of equal value? Or there are 10 FMGs out there banging on the door of your administrator to take your job, and your administrator let them in and kicked you to the curb? I haven't seen a lot of that.

Everyone knows that, but Robboy and CAP.... Yes, CAP is actively trying to sabotage our field. Everyone knows that. That's why I have my tinfoil hat on my head, so CAP can't hear my thoughts and cause me to be fired and replaced by FMG pod people.
 
Again, sarcasm, cynicism, or complaining about FMG will not help, however, signing a petition might:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/oversupply-of-pathologists-in-the-us

http://pathologistoversupply.weebly.com/about.html

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oversupply-of-Pathologists-in-the-US/1548366392082748

Too bad I do not have enough time to compose almost 2 thousand messages as GBWillner or 27 thousand as Yaah did... Sarcasm is cheap, but helps no one. Some of us, who still have job, have to sign 5 thousand surgicals and one thousand cythology smears per year.
 
5 thousand surgicals and 1 thousand cytologies? That is half a year for most of us.
 
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I appreciate older pathologist's desire to change the disastrous professional environment for our field. However, his arguments are anecdotal, which means they are unconvincing, and his grammar is atrocious, which fuels the fire for the stereotype of our field being a haven for inept foreign-trained doctors.

With regards to the arguments, keep in mind that the "powers that be" directly benefit from the status quo, which is why the status quo is maintained. Your job is to produce data, or if not, at least emphasize inconsistencies in their data. The arguments must logically support your points and refute theirs. You have not done that. The petition, therefore, is not useful.

For instance, you could start by focusing on Yaah's point that the FTE measurement assumes no change from current demand. That is quite the far-flung assumption to make. The next step to further your argument would be to try to produce data that shows a rise in efficiency in pathologist work, or a change in work volume that reduces the need for more pathologists. Furthermore, you could try to define what they believe as being a normal FTE and then poke some holes in that.

You could angle it from the perspective of the GAO's argument that the current prostate biopsy volume is unsustainable and driven by greed, and adjust for the expected reduction in volume when reimbursements are reduced, which would unsurprisingly result in need for fewer pathologists.

You could bring the ASCP resident employment surveys and trend them out over the years. Things do appear to be getting worse for us. Use the data.

Gbwillner mentioned that the PA-vs-resident cost debate has borne that PAs are in actuality cheaper. I'm not so sure if that argument has entirely been settled. I for one see the cost and employer benefit in recruiting pathology residents to act as PAs, rather than recruiting PAs. Find data to support this argument and refute the latter.

Right now your petition is nothing more than an FMG rant.
 
On the subject of pathologist demand....

Anyone else notice that there is discussion this month, on another pathology listserv, about surgeons not wanting to submit some specimens to pathology? And surgeons negotiating a bundled price for all the hospital's services related to the procedure, forcing pathology to take peanuts. I have been reading more and more groups experiencing this and I have to think it will just continue to get worse. The end of fee for service is probably the biggest threat out there right now since there is so much waste keeping us employed/well compensated. It will be a bloodbath as more and more specimens head toward the trash and we get paid peanuts for the ones actually submitted. You sure as hell won't see immunos ordered liberally anymore.
 
Whether or not his evidence is anecdotal, I would think that the majority of people here including myself there is an oversupply of trainees relative to market demand. Too many old geezers trying to milk the cow forcing a lot of new grads to go to B.F.E. to find jobs. Do we have any more evidence than 'older pathologist'? Probably not, but because he is asking us to take action, we are suddenly demanding to see proof of what many of us already believe. The constant ads/links are kinda annoying though...

Gbwillner mentioned that the PA-vs-resident cost debate has borne that PAs are in actuality cheaper. I'm not so sure if that argument has entirely been settled.

I don't know if I'm buying this one either. These numbers are approximate, but if a PA makes about $80-100K minus benefits and if each residency position pays $45-60K minus benefits and Medicare is funding about $150K per resident...do the math.

5 thousand surgicals and 1 thousand cytologies? That is half a year for most of us.
How much do you make a year? What kinds of surgicals are you getting?

5K surgicals and 1K cytos is a robust volume enough to bill about half a million. If someone is doing twice that amount by themselves per year, I'd guess >90% of their caseload are 88305's, and no grossing, no research/teaching duties. I know people in both academics and private practice who do even less than that, working full time, and earn a modest living.
 
Where I work, you are expected to push glass until you throw an embolism. :sick:

5000 tissue, 1000 cytology ain't nothing. Could probably quit taking Warfarin if that was all I had to do. :laugh:
 
I don't know if I'm buying this one either. These numbers are approximate, but if a PA makes about $80-100K minus benefits and if each residency position pays $45-60K minus benefits and Medicare is funding about $150K per resident...do the math.

Here is some math. and a source:
http://www.medpac.gov/documents/contractor-reports/sept13_residents_gme_contractor.pdf?sfvrsn=0


PA's gross full time. They don't have CP rotations. They don't do Autopsy. They don't do cytology. They don't sign out for hours a day. How many hours/day do residents gross? On a busy surgpath service, let's say 4 hrs/day. How many hardcore surgpath months does a resident even do in a given year? 4? How efficient is a resident at grossing compared to a PA who does it full time on average? 1/2 as good? less? How good is a 1st year resident at grossing compared to a 4th year? .25 of all residents are first years and suck at everything.

PLUS, residents burden faculty in the following ways:

1. "teach" pathology at the scope for hours/day that could be better served reviewing cases
2. giving lectures to residents, wasting time that could be better used signing out cases
3. serving in pointless academic administrative functions for residents, time that could be better utilized signing out cases

I would argue that, if a 4th year resident is as efficient at grossing as a PA, and the average resident is 1/2 as efficient as a PA; then using the math above 1 resident is worth 0.08 PA FTE for grossing. That means you need 12.5 residents to get the relative value of a PA.

Furthermore, you need to look into the total cost of hiring residents beyond salary. Don't forget your figures include fellow salaries as well. Medicare compensation for residents range depending on a lot of factors from 110,000- 150,000 depending on the size of the institution. $150K is not the mean. This money has to not only cover the resident and their benefits (average ~65K for salary, 25-50K benefits for primary care), but also:
- CME office, staff, overhead
- seminars, travel expenses
- space, supplies, equipment, support
- insurance
-... and most importantly, pay for the physicians for the lost work time and their training.

There is a lot to this and it's not simple... but from the Rand report linked above...

"Medicare covers about 23.5 percent of direct GME costs incurred by teaching hospitals (RAND analysis of FY 2010/2011 Medicare cost reports). Relative to the average per resident payment, payments are about 6 percent higher for residents in primary care specialties and about 14 percent lower for residents beyond their initial residency period."

If someone knows more detail, please feel to chime in, but my understanding is that Medicare will only pay $71K per resident (IME), provided the program is below its allotted "cap" (and $0 after) (the number above). Medicare DME pays additional funds, as so does medicaid. I don't know what this is for pathology. DME and medicaid appear to pay differently depending on a lot of factors... the details are here:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/childrenshospitalgme/pdf/paymentmethodology.pdf

Some hospitals appear to get more or less funding based on a lot of factors. Regardless, I have a difficult time believing that residency programs somehow benefit in any economic sense from having residents. With a staff of 20 faculty working 50% service time, assuming the staff could sign out 10 more biopsies per day without having any residents to slow them down(which is pretty conservative), they could bill an extra $2.6M per year. If they have to hire a PA at $85K, that's still a pretty good reason to NOT take residents. A department that size would probably have 4-5 residents. The net gain from "CMS" would be $50K per resident at best, assuming the costs beyond compensation are negligible (which they are not), so in this case the department leaves well over $2M on the table (plus a PA) to "take" $200K from the government.

Sorry for the wall of text. I welcome well-reasoned responses and arguments.
 
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Here is some math. and a source:
http://www.medpac.gov/documents/contractor-reports/sept13_residents_gme_contractor.pdf?sfvrsn=0


PA's gross full time. They don't have CP rotations. They don't do Autopsy. They don't do cytology. They don't sign out for hours a day. How many hours/day do residents gross? On a busy surgpath service, let's say 4 hrs/day. How many hardcore surgpath months does a resident even do in a given year? 4? How efficient is a resident at grossing compared to a PA who does it full time on average? 1/2 as good? less? How good is a 1st year resident at grossing compared to a 4th year? .25 of all residents are first years and suck at everything.

PLUS, residents burden faculty in the following ways:

1. "teach" pathology at the scope for hours/day that could be better served reviewing cases
2. giving lectures to residents, wasting time that could be better used signing out cases
3. serving in pointless academic administrative functions for residents, time that could be better utilized signing out cases

I would argue that, if a 4th year resident is as efficient at grossing as a PA, and the average resident is 1/2 as efficient as a PA; then using the math above 1 resident is worth 0.08 PA FTE for grossing. That means you need 12.5 residents to get the relative value of a PA.

Furthermore, you need to look into the total cost of hiring residents beyond salary. Don't forget your figures include fellow salaries as well. Medicare compensation for residents range depending on a lot of factors from 110,000- 150,000 depending on the size of the institution. $150K is not the mean. This money has to not only cover the resident and their benefits (average ~65K for salary, 25-50K benefits for primary care), but also:
- CME office, staff, overhead
- seminars, travel expenses
- space, supplies, equipment, support
- insurance
-... and most importantly, pay for the physicians for the lost work time and their training.

There is a lot to this and it's not simple... but from the Rand report linked above...

"Medicare covers about 23.5 percent of direct GME costs incurred by teaching hospitals (RAND analysis of FY 2010/2011 Medicare cost reports). Relative to the average per resident payment, payments are about 6 percent higher for residents in primary care specialties and about 14 percent lower for residents beyond their initial residency period."

If someone knows more detail, please feel to chime in, but my understanding is that Medicare will only pay $71K per resident (IME), provided the program is below its allotted "cap" (and $0 after) (the number above). Medicare DME pays additional funds, as so does medicaid. I don't know what this is for pathology. DME and medicaid appear to pay differently depending on a lot of factors... the details are here:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/childrenshospitalgme/pdf/paymentmethodology.pdf

Some hospitals appear to get more or less funding based on a lot of factors. Regardless, I have a difficult time believing that residency programs somehow benefit in any economic sense from having residents. With a staff of 20 faculty working 50% service time, assuming the staff could sign out 10 more biopsies per day without having any residents to slow them down(which is pretty conservative), they could bill an extra $2.6M per year. If they have to hire a PA at $85K, that's still a pretty good reason to NOT take residents. A department that size would probably have 4-5 residents. The net gain from "CMS" would be $50K per resident at best, assuming the costs beyond compensation are negligible (which they are not), so in this case the department leaves well over $1M on the table (plus a PA) to "take" $200K from the government.

Sorry for the wall of text. I welcome well-reasoned responses and arguments.


I haven't had time to delve into your response in depth, but I will say that I think you are making the assumption that all programs are equal. Lots of programs, particularly those in NY who act as recruitment centers for FMGs, have the residents grossing full days with zero to limited preview time. The large resident contingent at these programs allows the wheels to turn no matter if some residents are on CP or other non-grossing rotations.

I would think this does not happen at high-level Ivy-league schools.
 
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I work in private practice and I guess I'm still a "newbie" and I know I can be more efficient, but can someone explain what makes up your magical 10K/cases per year solo? That sounds a bit overworked IMO, especially if you're seeing a good mix of cancer resections, bone marrows (not half-assed signed out like I've seen some generalists do), medical/neoplastic lung, etc. Tack on some administrative duties and what not...

However, if we're talking looking at a tray of non-stop GI bx... B F D! I'm sure if you work for Caris/Miraca then your life could be summarized in one of their 999 canned comments. Mine would definitely be tagged under "CAG3".
 
It is not me who is hung on retirement age, you are. You are coming back to it as if it was the centerpiece of my letter.

The centerpiece is somewhere else: RESIDENTS IN PATHOLOGY ARE TRAINED FOR POSITIONS THAT DO NOT EXIST. Way too many residents are admitted into Pathology, not to replace retiring pathologists, but to bring money to departments. The consequence is under or unemployment of many pathologists. Pathologists are therefore on the mercy of administrators and clinicians. Not because they are stupid or bad professionals, but because they can be very easily replaced. Everyone knows that, but Robboy and CAP.

It's one of your four main initial points, and you refer back to it. It's your petition, not mine. I'm not hung up on anything except that you need data instead of anecdotes and assumptions. And one of the data points you are arguing is the retirement stuff, which is actually quite well supported with evidence despite what you say. It doesn't make your opinion on the other things wrong, but it significantly weakens your argument.
 
5K surgicals and 1K cytos is a robust volume enough to bill about half a million. If someone is doing twice that amount by themselves per year, I'd guess >90% of their caseload are 88305's, and no grossing, no research/teaching duties. I know people in both academics and private practice who do even less than that, working full time, and earn a modest living.

Yeah, I am one of those people. I don't make a ridiculous salary by any means, but it is respectable for PP and most of our caseload doesn't revolve around seeing tons of 88305s. Of course, I have other obligations to fulfill (e.g. the occasional tumor board, a couple of resident teaching sessions every now and then, sit on a few hospital committees)...
 
Here is some math. and a source:
http://www.medpac.gov/documents/contractor-reports/sept13_residents_gme_contractor.pdf?sfvrsn=0


PA's gross full time. They don't have CP rotations. They don't do Autopsy. They don't do cytology. They don't sign out for hours a day. How many hours/day do residents gross? On a busy surgpath service, let's say 4 hrs/day. How many hardcore surgpath months does a resident even do in a given year? 4? How efficient is a resident at grossing compared to a PA who does it full time on average? 1/2 as good? less? How good is a 1st year resident at grossing compared to a 4th year? .25 of all residents are first years and suck at everything.

I agree - a PA is probably worth far more than 2.5 residents in terms of output on grossing or whatever other tasks they do (like frozens or diening or accessioning). They are not only more efficient with cases but probably consume fewer resources (by submitting less tissue, using less ancillary stuff, etc) and don't have to take time out for other resident stuff.
 
1) “I appreciate older pathologist's desire to change the disastrous professional environment for our field. However, his arguments are anecdotal, which means they are unconvincing, and his grammar is atrocious, which fuels the fire for the stereotype of our field being a haven for inept foreign-trained doctors”.
QUESTION: Why is pathology stereotyped as a haven for inept foreign-trained doctors ? Is it because residency programs love foreigners, or because there are too many openings in pathology ? If the latter is true, than cutting residency slots for 50% would certainly increase percentage of US graduates within the specialty.

2) “And surgeons negotiating a bundled price for all the hospital's services related to the procedure, forcing pathology to take peanuts”.
QUESTION: If pathologists were in short supply and if job marked for pathology was excellent, how come are pathologist forced to take peanuts ? Something must be wrong here.

3) “Right now your petition is nothing more than an FMG rant”.
POINT: To me responses to petition are nothing more than AMG rant against FMG. However, FMG are not the cause of oversupply, too many PGY1 positions are.

4) “Where I work, you are expected to push glass until you throw an embolism”.
QUESTION: Why you do not move to less abusive and less dangerous place ? If the job market was excellent, you would have been gone long time ago. But job market is a disaster and you are stuck, correct?

So, AMG, stop ranting against FMG and do something – sign a petition. Cutting of PGY1 positions would help you with jobs and would also make your wet dream possible - the decrease of FMG within "your" specialty.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/oversupply-of-pathologists-in-the-us
 
Last edited:
Here is some math. and a source:
http://www.medpac.gov/documents/contractor-reports/sept13_residents_gme_contractor.pdf?sfvrsn=0


PA's gross full time. They don't have CP rotations. They don't do Autopsy. They don't do cytology. They don't sign out for hours a day. How many hours/day do residents gross? On a busy surgpath service, let's say 4 hrs/day. How many hardcore surgpath months does a resident even do in a given year? 4? How efficient is a resident at grossing compared to a PA who does it full time on average? 1/2 as good? less? How good is a 1st year resident at grossing compared to a 4th year? .25 of all residents are first years and suck at everything.

PLUS, residents burden faculty in the following ways:

1. "teach" pathology at the scope for hours/day that could be better served reviewing cases
2. giving lectures to residents, wasting time that could be better used signing out cases
3. serving in pointless academic administrative functions for residents, time that could be better utilized signing out cases

I would argue that, if a 4th year resident is as efficient at grossing as a PA, and the average resident is 1/2 as efficient as a PA; then using the math above 1 resident is worth 0.08 PA FTE for grossing. That means you need 12.5 residents to get the relative value of a PA.

Furthermore, you need to look into the total cost of hiring residents beyond salary. Don't forget your figures include fellow salaries as well. Medicare compensation for residents range depending on a lot of factors from 110,000- 150,000 depending on the size of the institution. $150K is not the mean. This money has to not only cover the resident and their benefits (average ~65K for salary, 25-50K benefits for primary care), but also:
- CME office, staff, overhead
- seminars, travel expenses
- space, supplies, equipment, support
- insurance
-... and most importantly, pay for the physicians for the lost work time and their training.

There is a lot to this and it's not simple... but from the Rand report linked above...

"Medicare covers about 23.5 percent of direct GME costs incurred by teaching hospitals (RAND analysis of FY 2010/2011 Medicare cost reports). Relative to the average per resident payment, payments are about 6 percent higher for residents in primary care specialties and about 14 percent lower for residents beyond their initial residency period."

If someone knows more detail, please feel to chime in, but my understanding is that Medicare will only pay $71K per resident (IME), provided the program is below its allotted "cap" (and $0 after) (the number above). Medicare DME pays additional funds, as so does medicaid. I don't know what this is for pathology. DME and medicaid appear to pay differently depending on a lot of factors... the details are here:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/childrenshospitalgme/pdf/paymentmethodology.pdf

Some hospitals appear to get more or less funding based on a lot of factors. Regardless, I have a difficult time believing that residency programs somehow benefit in any economic sense from having residents. With a staff of 20 faculty working 50% service time, assuming the staff could sign out 10 more biopsies per day without having any residents to slow them down(which is pretty conservative), they could bill an extra $2.6M per year. If they have to hire a PA at $85K, that's still a pretty good reason to NOT take residents. A department that size would probably have 4-5 residents. The net gain from "CMS" would be $50K per resident at best, assuming the costs beyond compensation are negligible (which they are not), so in this case the department leaves well over $2M on the table (plus a PA) to "take" $200K from the government.

Sorry for the wall of text. I welcome well-reasoned responses and arguments.


This is one of the more thoughtful replies posted on SDN. It also stands out because it contains actual data.

Thank you for taking the time to find all of this information, and posting.
 
1) “I appreciate older pathologist's desire to change the disastrous professional environment for our field. However, his arguments are anecdotal, which means they are unconvincing, and his grammar is atrocious, which fuels the fire for the stereotype of our field being a haven for inept foreign-trained doctors”.
QUESTION: Why is pathology stereotyped as a haven for inept foreign-trained doctors ? Is it because residency programs love foreigners, or because there are too many openings in pathology ? If the latter is true, than cutting residency slots for 50% would certainly increase percentage of US graduates within the specialty.

2) “And surgeons negotiating a bundled price for all the hospital's services related to the procedure, forcing pathology to take peanuts”.
QUESTION: If pathologists were in short supply and if job marked for pathology was excellent, how come are pathologist forced to take peanuts ? Something must be wrong here.

3) “Right now your petition is nothing more than an FMG rant”.
POINT: To me responses to petition are nothing more than AMG rant against FMG. However, FMG are not the cause of oversupply, too many PGY1 positions are.

4) “Where I work, you are expected to push glass until you throw an embolism”.
QUESTION: Why you do not move to less abusive and less dangerous place ? If the job market was excellent, you would have been gone long time ago. But job market is a disaster and you are stuck, correct?

So, AMG, stop ranting against FMG and do something – sign a petition. Cutting of PGY1 positions would help you with jobs and would also make your wet dream possible - the decrease of FMG within "your" specialty.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/oversupply-of-pathologists-in-the-us


Who would sign anything from some annonymous internet poster? Good luck with your ipetition.

Best thing to do is change careers.

"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown"
 
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