Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
MountainPharmD said:
They do not care because they have not seen that they can make money off it. Trust me, if it ever becomes profitable we will have MTM crammed down our throat just like we do immunizations now.
Click to expand...

Ah but they really can't make much money off of it in a chain, since you'd have to have 2 pharmacists in a store at a time so they can dispense, answer the phone AND provide MTM. So they don't think it's worth spending 100k+ per store to push MTM.
Members don't see this ad.
 
bacillus1 said:
Ah but they really can't make much money off of it in a chain, since you'd have to have 2 pharmacists in a store at a time so they can dispense, answer the phone AND provide MTM. So they don't think it's worth spending 100k+ per store to push MTM.
Click to expand...

If salaries fall down to 60k (not saying it will), it will be.
 
The question is if there is a demand for MTM services? I wouldnt worry about supply or profitiability of it yet.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
NormalSaline said:
Wow as a future 2011 grad, I dont know how to react to all this worry about oversupply. Part of me wants to jump right into work and pay down my debts as fast as possible. Another part of me wants to do 2 years of residency so that I can be distinguished from all of the new grads.
Click to expand...


switch careers.....
 
There is a demand for MTM. The problem is pharmacists make to much money to be profitable. You can accomplish the same goals using RN's at half the cost.
 
Last edited:
Any professor of economics out there...

What would the salary fall-out be if lets say, there was a surplus of pharmacists and 20 percent of pharmacists could not find work?
 
I think pharmacists starting salaries, retail especially, could fall to around $50K - $60K. Podiatrists (DPM), Psychologists (PsyD), Physical Therapists (DPT or OTD) have graduates starting around $60K currently, and their academic programs are longer than the minimum years to get a PharmD. In a capitalist economy, the market determines your salary. The market was strong for PharmDs, but there are about 5 schools opening every year, with more than 30 new schools who will graduate their first class in the next 5 years. And more and more schools open every year. At this rate there will be 50 new schools produced over the last 10 years.

Saturation is inevitable and PharmD salaries could return back to where they were in the 90s before this education bubble blew up from the easy student loan debt money feeding the new private for-profit PharmD businesses. It is prevalent in all aspects of education. Degree inflation is rampant and private schools love holding people in academia for 8 years when they used to only get 5 out of us. PharmD, DPT, OTD, OD, DNP, DBA, DPM, PsyD, AuD, DNAP, JD, all these professional doctorates pop up everywhere with $30K/year tuition and 97% of it is funded by student loans. Heathcare education bubble in the making.

Almost anyone can get into A pharmacy school now, not the top schools, but they can get in. If they apply to 15 different schools they will more than likely get in somewhere. People with low GPAs and low PCAT scores get in more than you would believe.

Low quality students would gladly accept $60K, because they are not worth that much doing any other job anyway. Take 2 years of prereqs at a CC and get a 3.0gpa, score low on the pcat, get into an easy pharmacy school, and be out at the age of 23-24 making $60K with little effort and no other strong personal traits. Corporate retail giants do not care if they are getting top students, they just want the cheapest laboring RPh that they can get. Any licensed RPh can do the job in this profit driven model.

Hospital and clinical salaries will not fall, at least not by much. Organizations hiring these positons do not benefit by hiring low quality applicants because better pharmacists are more safe and efficient in this setting. DOPs don't like to deal with ****ty pharmacists.

Look at the JD degree, top candidates get the good $100K jobs, the rest of the people from the new crap private schools end up making $40-50K after 7 years and $120K in student loans.
 
Last edited:
technically speaking, pharmacy is a government sactioned profession, sorta like a mandated middle man between big pharma and the unassuming consumer.

for the most part, people dont "need" us. They come to us because they HAVE to, otherwise they are not getting those healthy pills. Contrast: people choose to go to the doctor, hair stylist, hooker, etc... they dont have to.

Now with that in mind, pharmacy pay has been inflated mostly by shortage, as opposed to the value of the service (thats a constant unless the role of the phamacist expands in the near future ie MTM, clinical positions etc). This makes pharmacist surplus such a risky move.
 
.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
You guys are only looking at the supply side and not the demand side. Do you think the major chains will be static forever? If the salaries fall, many people will open their own places again.

Do I think we need to stop opening pharmacy schools, yes. But it is not doom and gloom. We are in the middle of a recession and there is no expansion going on anywhere. Your average medical practice is not going to add a PharmD for MTM, the chains are not expanding, hospitals are not expanding.

Relax, this too will pass.....
 
There is never surplus of talent. So distinguish yourselves from Podunk School of Pharmacy!
 
Well, first of all, I'm glad that I will graduate before 2015. So hopefully I will have all my loans paid off by then.

Second, I just don't see a reason to bash newer schools and the students. It's really uncalled for.

Now, as far as MTM is concerned, this can work by having a pharmacist at the pharmacy for 1-2 days a week instead of 7 days a week. That way you can get more patients in for those 2 days. I mean it can't be that busy that they need a pharmacist there every day for that. That way, they don't have to pay $100K. But I just don't know if MTM services would be profitable or not. It just doesn't really seem that way. But who knows, anything is possible.
 
This is a lot of the reasons that I 1) did a residency 2) am getting my BCPS 3) have my MTM credientials and am starting an MTM program. I want to set myself apart from other pharmacists. MTM in the current model in community pharmacies will never work to its fullest potential. Not because pharmacists are not capable but because there is little incentive. Half the time I'm d/cing meds, that doesn't help the pharmacy. At least within a clinic setting you can help increase optimal care goals, reduce physcian burden, etc - the reimbursement is just gravy. And not much gravy at that. The entire MTM system needs to be remodeled away from ties to PartD and tied instead to health insurance, not prescription coverage.

I wonder how this would play out if we had never gone to the one degree program? If people had the choice of which degree and thus what type of pharmacy they want to practice...
 
spacecowgirl said:
I wonder how this would play out if we had never gone to the one degree program? If people had the choice of which degree and thus what type of pharmacy they want to practice...
Click to expand...

How would this work? It wouldn't. Who in their right mind would spend the money to go to school an extra year? The glut in retail would be greater. We still live in a capitalist society.
 
The best solution for this would be the following:

1. Stop opening pharmacy schools like mushrooms....
2. Be stricter toward foreign pharmacists who seeking for a job in the US: make the test harder, longer....or even make them go back to school for another year or two, etc...
3. Schools need to be more selective with applicants. I've seen very poor and incompetent pharmacists/ pharmacist students that i have no idea how the heck they get in the first place.


I do believe that if we don't control 1,2 above--> pharmacists will not be easy to find a job as before very soon. It's all about demand vs supply. When supply > demand (which i' m seeing now...), then of course that means NO JOBs!
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
I think pharmacists starting salaries, retail especially, could fall to around $50K - $60K. Podiatrists (DPM), Psychologists (PsyD), Physical Therapists (DPT or OTD) have graduates starting around $60K currently, and their academic programs are longer than the minimum years to get a PharmD. In a capitalist economy, the market determines your salary. The market was strong for PharmDs, but there are about 5 schools opening every year, with more than 30 new schools who will graduate their first class in the next 5 years. And more and more schools open every year. At this rate there will be 50 new schools produced over the last 10 years.

Saturation is inevitable and PharmD salaries could return back to where they were in the 90s before this education bubble blew up from the easy student loan debt money feeding the new private for-profit PharmD businesses. It is prevalent in all aspects of education. Degree inflation is rampant and private schools love holding people in academia for 8 years when they used to only get 5 out of us. PharmD, DPT, OTD, OD, DNP, DBA, DPM, PsyD, AuD, DNAP, JD, all these professional doctorates pop up everywhere with $30K/year tuition and 97% of it is funded by student loans. Heathcare education bubble in the making.

Almost anyone can get into A pharmacy school now, not the top schools, but they can get in. If they apply to 15 different schools they will more than likely get in somewhere. People with low GPAs and low PCAT scores get in more than you would believe.

Low quality students would gladly accept $60K, because they are not worth that much doing any other job anyway. Take 2 years of prereqs at a CC and get a 3.0gpa, score low on the pcat, get into an easy pharmacy school, and be out at the age of 23-24 making $60K with little effort and no other strong personal traits. Corporate retail giants do not care if they are getting top students, they just want the cheapest laboring RPh that they can get. Any licensed RPh can do the job in this profit driven model.

Hospital and clinical salaries will not fall, at least not by much. Organizations hiring these positons do not benefit by hiring low quality applicants because better pharmacists are more safe and efficient in this setting. DOPs don't like to deal with ****ty pharmacists.

Look at the JD degree, top candidates get the good $100K jobs, the rest of the people from the new crap private schools end up making $40-50K after 7 years and $120K in student loans.
Click to expand...
Don't you have to at least be in pharmacy school to make those kind of predictions?
 
MountainPharmD said:
There is a demand for MTM. The problem is pharmacists make to much money to be profitable. You can accomplish the same goals using RN's at half the cost.
Click to expand...


c'mon you have to be kidding me...give yourself a little credit...nurses cant even spell the drug name...maybe NPs but I fix their sh&% everday...im not worried about my job
 
So im in student presentations today...one student from a Joe schmo school stands up.....he tells us that ceftriaxone is renally adjusted and dose q12 (not for meningitis), augmentin is given IV, 2 other drugs (for BP) are used to kill bacteria...graduation is in may and they will have a doctorate....this is scary my friends....I am good at my job and enjoy it....if it were not for that I would be switching careers because things are not going in the right direction
 
MountainPharmD said:
Here is a link to the The Pharmacy Alliance forum. I think this guy does a nice job of putting a pharmacists salary in perspective. Please read it. He makes alot of good points that pertain to our current discussion.

http://www.thepharmacyalliance.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74
Click to expand...


This guy is complaining about pay but let me ask....what has he done to put himself in a position to improve his pay and job satisfaction....yeah hes prob a good pharmacist and takes care of patients but look at nurses, pa's etc.....their pay will stay between $20-40/hr unless they do something to market themselves such as an MBA, JD, MD or further training....the only person on that site who has done this got their MBA!

The nurse anesthist bubble is gonna burst soon just like the retail pharmacy bubble is bursting.

I encourage all of you to look at the pharmacy jobs posted here and tell me that further training is not worth it....
https://www.hoparx.org/jobs.aspx
 
bigpharmD said:
So im in student presentations today...one student from a Joe schmo school stands up.....he tells us that ceftriaxone is renally adjusted and dose q12 (not for meningitis), augmentin is given IV, 2 other drugs (for BP) are used to kill bacteria...graduation is in may and they will have a doctorate....this is scary my friends....I am good at my job and enjoy it....if it were not for that I would be switching careers because things are not going in the right direction
Click to expand...

i had a kid in with me, and i asked him the CrCl equation and he couldnt give me anything (granted i work in retail setting, but still, give me SOMETHING, that it takes into account age, Scr, etc)
 
bigpharmD said:
This guy is complaining about pay but let me ask....what has he done to put himself in a position to improve his pay and job satisfaction....yeah hes prob a good pharmacist and takes care of patients but look at nurses, pa's etc.....their pay will stay between $20-40/hr unless they do something to market themselves such as an MBA, JD, MD or further training....the only person on that site who has done this got their MBA!

The nurse anesthist bubble is gonna burst soon just like the retail pharmacy bubble is bursting.

I encourage all of you to look at the pharmacy jobs posted here and tell me that further training is not worth it....
https://www.hoparx.org/jobs.aspx
Click to expand...

the bottom line is the 100K for 2 years one can make instead of 40K + lots of projects is what detracts people away from residency
 
PharmDstudent said:
Don't you have to at least be in pharmacy school to make those kind of predictions?
Click to expand...

Argumentum ad hominem. I don't have to be a pharmacy student to have valuable experience in the pharmacy field. What school do you go to?

Everything goes in cycles of boom and bust. Humans are too stupid and too greedy to do it any other way. Dot com bubble - bust, real estate bubble - bust, education bubble fueled by easy access to enormous students loans == ??? There are lots of people making big money in this process. Short term gain is better than long term stability, as long as you are the one getting screwed over and not me.

The boom in pharmacy school creation will continue until applicants feel it is not worth their time and debt to attend pharmacy school. Then it will cool down for a while.
 
prevacid said:
the bottom line is the 100K for 2 years one can make instead of 40K + lots of projects is what detracts people away from residency
Click to expand...

Thats definitely a huge consideration, but I think school fatigue is also a big issue.

Many of my classmates are 23-24 and have been in school for as long as they can remember. At what point do you get to start enjoying the benefits of your hard work?

Many of my friends are done with their undergrad degrees and are out of school making 40k/yr. They are living in nice places, driving nice cars, going out and doing a lot of fun things. Its hard to see all that and then come back to school, my 12 year old car and my boring librarycentric lifestyle. It honestly makes retail look pretty appealing right out of school.
 
prevacid said:
i had a kid in with me, and i asked him the CrCl equation and he couldnt give me anything (granted i work in retail setting, but still, give me SOMETHING, that it takes into account age, Scr, etc)
Click to expand...

haha, (140-age x IBW) / (72 x SCr), total x .85 if female, IBW = 45.5f|50m + (2.3 * inches over 60).

Good lord, they made us memorize that ish cold all last semester and this semester. So is this one of those things that you just plug into your PDA calc? Or is there actually some clinical significance here going on here.
 
NormalSaline said:
Thats definitely a huge consideration, but I think school fatigue is also a big issue.

Many of my classmates are 23-24 and have been in school for as long as they can remember. At what point do you get to start enjoying the benefits of your hard work?

Many of my friends are done with their undergrad degrees and are out of school making 40k/yr. They are living in nice places, driving nice cars, going out and doing a lot of fun things. Its hard to see all that and then come back to school, my 12 year old car and my boring librarycentric lifestyle. It honestly makes retail look pretty appealing right out of school.
Click to expand...

QFT :thumbup:
 
NormalSaline said:
Thats definitely a huge consideration, but I think school fatigue is also a big issue.

Many of my classmates are 23-24 and have been in school for as long as they can remember. At what point do you get to start enjoying the benefits of your hard work?

Many of my friends are done with their undergrad degrees and are out of school making 40k/yr. They are living in nice places, driving nice cars, going out and doing a lot of fun things. Its hard to see all that and then come back to school, my 12 year old car and my boring librarycentric lifestyle. It honestly makes retail look pretty appealing right out of school.
Click to expand...

You can make that as a resident. Or you can work full time and work on a part time MBA...there is always an excuse
 
bigpharmD said:
You can make that as a resident. Or you can work full time and work on a part time MBA...there is always an excuse
Click to expand...

Absolutely you can, I'm just trying to present another piece of the huge decision making process. Those jobs you posted looked really interesting and fulfilling. I'm pretty sure I know which career path I will go down;)
 
bigpharmD said:
This guy is complaining about pay but let me ask....what has he done to put himself in a position to improve his pay and job satisfaction....yeah hes prob a good pharmacist and takes care of patients
Click to expand...

His comments are to people who say pharmacists make to much. He is also addressing the pharmacists who put up with all the crap we do and say "oh well I make a lot of money." He is one of the biggest advocates for pharmacists getting paid for all we do.

bigpharmD said:
I encourage all of you to look at the pharmacy jobs posted here and tell me that further training is not worth it....https://www.hoparx.org/jobs.aspx
Click to expand...

Where do you stop with further training? 15 to 20 years ago you got your PharmD to distinguish yourself and get "further training". Now everyone has a PharmD and you need a residencey to what a PharmD used to do. Where does it end? What happens when it is required that everyone has a residency? Do we have double secret residencies? Super residencies? Or should we all just go to med school and forget about pharmacy?
 
it is a huge decision but everyone needs to think about 10-15 years down the road not just next year...like i have stated on these boards before i worked in a hospital staffing position before i went down the road i am on now...i got sick of paging the "specialist" with questions...have md or nps call down wanting to talk to a "clinical pharmacist" etc....i felt like it would take me 5-10 years to get the knowledge base that i wanted so i changed paths...my job now is very rewarding and challenging...do I get paid more? ?? a little bit...but i think in 5 years after i work on a part time mph i will have an opportunity for significant pay increases that i wouldnt have had with my previous career path
 
MountainPharmD said:
His comments are to people who say pharmacists make to much. He is also addressing the pharmacists who put up with all the crap we do and say "oh well I make a lot of money." He is one of the biggest advocates for pharmacists getting paid for all we do.



Where do you stop with further training? 15 to 20 years ago you got your PharmD to distinguish yourself and get "further training". Now everyone has a PharmD and you need a residencey to what a PharmD used to do. Where does it end? What happens when it is required that everyone has a residency? Do we have double secret residencies? Super residencies? Or should we all just go to med school and forget about pharmacy?
Click to expand...

you are right...i have re read some of the posts...i do think it is crazy that i fix errors all day....offer advice....get paged at 8 pm tonight with a question all for free....and many good pahrmacists are going md and forgetting pharmacy...

you make some great points...i am not for a required residency i think that is dumb...i also think pharmacy schools should have kept the BS and pharmD....but everyone acts like a residency is this monumental task...it really isnt....the pay is fine...the work is not bad...you are busy at different points during the year...it is very doable.....
 
bigpharmD said:
you make some great points...i am not for a required residency i think that is dumb...i also think pharmacy schools should have kept the BS and pharmD....but everyone acts like a residency is this monumental task...it really isnt....the pay is fine...the work is not bad...you are busy at different points during the year...it is very doable.....
Click to expand...

Why is a required residency dumb? If it is so valuable then it should be required of everyone right?

I was an intern at the largest hospital in Kansas City Missouri when they started their residency program. I know it was a new program but I did not see any value to it at all for someone who had worked in hospital.

The dollar signs are big coming out of school. Half pay for a 2 year residency is a 100,000 dollars in lost salary compared to someone who goes right out and gets a job. How many years are you going to have to work to make that up? I do not know how it works now but you used to be able to get a job at a hospital right out of school. You would pay your dues for a few years and then move into a "clinical" position.

To me a residency is nothing more than structured on the job training at half pay. I think it is a scam that they get your services but do not pay you a full salary.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why not do something about it? Contact the ACPE directly:

[email protected] (regarding a professional degree program)
[email protected] (regarding a continuing education provider)

After you have emailed them, post it here. Don't just whine. Do something.
 
MountainPharmD said:
Why is a required residency dumb? If it is so valuable then it should be required of everyone right?
Click to expand...

It should only be required for those who do not want to man the drive-thru, ring up cigarettes along with lisinopril, and ardently defend the sad status quo for the rest of their lives....For all I care, the individuals who want to complete 2 years of community college, and then grab a "doctorate" from a 3 year online college because they heard it pays well, can stay the hell away from the training that will eventually keep me employed/employable, and not repeatedly starting threads about the inability to find a job.
 
MountainPharmD said:
Why is a required residency dumb? If it is so valuable then it should be required of everyone right?

I was an intern at the largest hospital in Kansas City Missouri when they started their residency program. I know it was a new program but I did not see any value to it at all for someone who had worked in hospital.

The dollar signs are big coming out of school. Half pay for a 2 year residency is a 100,000 dollars in lost salary compared to someone who goes right out and gets a job. How many years are you going to have to work to make that up? I do not know how it works now but you used to be able to get a job at a hospital right out of school. You would pay your dues for a few years and then move into a "clinical" position.

To me a residency is nothing more than structured on the job training at half pay. I think it is a scam that they get your services but do not pay you a full salary.
Click to expand...

I just dont think everyone should have to do a residency if they dont want to....it should be an option

i am not gonna get in flame war....look at the job post link i put up...the pay there is way more than retail for many of those positions and to me worth the "half pay 2 year scam"...look at the requirements....i have learned more in my two years than I ever would have working in the hospital in my old position for 5 years...my wife worked retail for a year now works hospital and comes home everday thinking about doing a residency.....nothing more than on the job training? why do the staff pharmacists who have been there for years covering the floor call me all day with questions...i mean i am only a resident right.?

do you think this guy would be asked to give his opinion and be the lead author if he didnt participate in this scam?
http://www.chestjournal.org/content/135/4/1075
 
confettiflyer said:
haha, (140-age x IBW) / (72 x SCr), total x .85 if female, IBW = 45.5f|50m + (2.3 * inches over 60).

Good lord, they made us memorize that ish cold all last semester and this semester. So is this one of those things that you just plug into your PDA calc? Or is there actually some clinical significance here going on here.
Click to expand...

yea i have a program on my phone that does it, all u do is put the numbers in

however, this dude couldnt even tell me ONE variable

ive talked to preceptors, and they are appaled at the lack of knowledge some of these new school students have
 
NormalSaline said:
Thats definitely a huge consideration, but I think school fatigue is also a big issue.

Many of my classmates are 23-24 and have been in school for as long as they can remember. At what point do you get to start enjoying the benefits of your hard work?

Many of my friends are done with their undergrad degrees and are out of school making 40k/yr. They are living in nice places, driving nice cars, going out and doing a lot of fun things. Its hard to see all that and then come back to school, my 12 year old car and my boring librarycentric lifestyle. It honestly makes retail look pretty appealing right out of school.
Click to expand...

very true

im going back next year, but i saved some money so the salary diff wont be a shock that much
 
bigpharmD said:
I just dont think everyone should have to do a residency if they dont want to....it should be an option....do you think this guy would be asked to give his opinion and be the lead author if he didnt participate in this scam?
http://www.chestjournal.org/content/135/4/1075
Click to expand...

Anyone with 3 years experience can be a lead author in Chest......NOT. Pharmacists and physicians with 20 years experience page this guy on a daily basis on issues pertaining to patients with life threatening conditions.
 
BMBiology said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why not do something about it? Contact the ACPE directly:

[email protected] (regarding a professional degree program)
[email protected] (regarding a continuing education provider)

After you have emailed them, post it here. Don't just whine. Do something.
Click to expand...

i have sent a message, but i never got a response
 
Nevermind....for now.
 
i bet i could just fall into being the director of outcomes for novartis with 5 years experience at wal-mart
 
spacecowgirl said:
This is a lot of the reasons that I 1) did a residency 2) am getting my BCPS 3) have my MTM credientials and am starting an MTM program. I want to set myself apart from other pharmacists. MTM in the current model in community pharmacies will never work to its fullest potential. Not because pharmacists are not capable but because there is little incentive. Half the time I'm d/cing meds, that doesn't help the pharmacy. At least within a clinic setting you can help increase optimal care goals, reduce physcian burden, etc - the reimbursement is just gravy. And not much gravy at that. The entire MTM system needs to be remodeled away from ties to PartD and tied instead to health insurance, not prescription coverage.

I wonder how this would play out if we had never gone to the one degree program? If people had the choice of which degree and thus what type of pharmacy they want to practice...
Click to expand...

This is a really good point. I met with a clinical pharmacist friend of mine today. We had a long discussion about the one degree vs. the two degrees. Suprisingly she told me this is a hot topic with in the pharmacists community in my area (major metropolis). Many agree, but are too afraid to speak up that the two degree program should be an option. I don't want to push anyones buttons but many in the community feel that certain areas of pharmacy only really need the original BS degree and not the PharmD. This could change the landscape of supply and demand and how the outside community views pharmacists.

There is hope for all of us. In our area there is a major vacuum of clinical pharmacists. What the article discusses about pharmacy really making the effort to distinguish the different areas of pharmacy and utilizing them better will have a positive impact on our future job prospects. Where I am, some of the DOPs are making this effort and taking away the responsibility of dispensing meds on the floors by nurses and putting it back where it should be - the pharmacists. The transition has been rough, but it is having a positive effect in the hospital and patient safety.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

L
Pharmacy Job Market in the Midwest
Replies
20
Views
4K
randompharm
randompharm
P
Current job market
Replies
10
Views
3K
Flavia28
F
R
Texas pharmacy job market
Replies
5
Views
3K
iamapharmacist
I
BC_89
Veterans Affairs (GS-13) Clinical Pharmacist Practitioner Job Offer - Room to Negotiate?
Replies
1
Views
221
bacillus1
bacillus1
T
Desaturating the Pharmacist Job Market the Very Easy Way
Replies
22
Views
6K
Dred Pirate
Dred Pirate
Top